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Genset - buy new .vs. cobble?
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| Ecnerwal 2006-01-04, 1:21 am |
| Push is coming to shove - I need heat, and that means I need to buy the
diesel genset that is going to be the heart of my power (and heating)
system.
Location is southern Vermont. Solar potential is not so great
(mountains, trees) but I will have some panels to help with the battery
bank - can't begin to afford to run the whole thing off them through the
bad months (Nov, Dec), however; thus, Mr Diesel.
Rough system description: it's a shop and eventually a house - shop
involves several big, not ever going to be "low consumption" loads. But
it's a one-person shop, at present more night and weekend than daily
(though those nights are going to need some lighting that's far beyond a
few compact florescents, my aging eyes tell me). Diesel genset, a couple
of inverters (likely Outback, also not bought yet), battery bank,
whatever PV I can afford, also some solar heat/hot water panels. Radiant
heat in the floor - tubing is already in place.
"Parsimonious man" is contemplating a used diesel of some sort (ie, old
VW engine, old Kubota engine) and a generator end to go with. Have had
diddly luck finding assembled used low-speed liquid-cooled diesel
generator at a low enough price to bother (other than HUGE ones, which
are very suspect at low prices, and not efficient at small loads, not to
mention being unmanageably large). Cobbling will take time, any problems
are all my problems.
"Spend it once and get the agony over with man" is leaning towards some
flavor of brand-new genset, with warrantee, and I'll know I've done the
maintenance on it.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
|
|
"Ecnerwal" <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote in message
news:LawrenceSMITH-18014E.23265803012006@news.verizon.net...
> Push is coming to shove - I need heat, and that means I need to buy the
> diesel genset that is going to be the heart of my power (and heating)
> system.
>
If you rely on the diesel for all the heat, you may be running the unit a
lot more than necessary. If you don't have a need for the extra electricity
produced, it will be a waste. You haven't mentioned a wood stove, which
would seem to make sense in your area. Even an oil stove burning the same
amount of fuel would seem to be more efficient than running the engine just
for heating.
> Location is southern Vermont. Solar potential is not so great
> (mountains, trees) but I will have some panels to help with the battery
> bank - can't begin to afford to run the whole thing off them through the
> bad months (Nov, Dec), however; thus, Mr Diesel.
>
Running off the batteries whenever possible is a nice, quiet solution. An
automatic starter for the generator based on load demand is even nicer.
I would probably consider an outside firebox with a good heat exchanger to
augment the hot water heating system. It could burn logs, yard waste, paper
garbage and straw bales, and double as an incinerator too.
Heating a house and shop with the same hot water system, heated by various
passive and active sources seems to make the most sense to me. Add my ideas
to the pile for what it's worth.
| |
| philkryder 2006-01-04, 2:21 am |
| How big is too big?
How ugly is too ugly...
How expensive is too much?
Some people really like these 2-71s.
I'm actually surprised these are rated at only 12.5 kw...
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIESEL-GENERATO...7QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...&category=26261
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/tls/121020279.html
The 71 series was made for many years.
Do you have any strict air pollution requirements?
Ecnerwal wrote:
> Push is coming to shove - I need heat, and that means I need to buy the
> diesel genset that is going to be the heart of my power (and heating)
> system.
>
> Location is southern Vermont. Solar potential is not so great
> (mountains, trees) but I will have some panels to help with the battery
> bank - can't begin to afford to run the whole thing off them through the
> bad months (Nov, Dec), however; thus, Mr Diesel.
>
> Rough system description: it's a shop and eventually a house - shop
> involves several big, not ever going to be "low consumption" loads. But
> it's a one-person shop, at present more night and weekend than daily
> (though those nights are going to need some lighting that's far beyond a
> few compact florescents, my aging eyes tell me). Diesel genset, a couple
> of inverters (likely Outback, also not bought yet), battery bank,
> whatever PV I can afford, also some solar heat/hot water panels. Radiant
> heat in the floor - tubing is already in place.
>
> "Parsimonious man" is contemplating a used diesel of some sort (ie, old
> VW engine, old Kubota engine) and a generator end to go with. Have had
> diddly luck finding assembled used low-speed liquid-cooled diesel
> generator at a low enough price to bother (other than HUGE ones, which
> are very suspect at low prices, and not efficient at small loads, not to
> mention being unmanageably large). Cobbling will take time, any problems
> are all my problems.
>
> "Spend it once and get the agony over with man" is leaning towards some
> flavor of brand-new genset, with warrantee, and I'll know I've done the
> maintenance on it.
>
> --
> Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2006-01-04, 5:21 am |
| Ecnerwal <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote:
>"Spend it once and get the agony over with man" is leaning towards some
>flavor of brand-new genset, with warrantee, and I'll know I've done the
>maintenance on it.
"Grid-tie-cogen lift-with-one-arm redundant-systems man" might pipe the
exhaust from a few propane-powered EU2000s into the top of a gas water
heater... $899 from Mayberrys.com, with free shipping.
Nick
| |
| Bughunter 2006-01-04, 7:21 am |
| One nice thing about the system that you describe is that it is highly
modular.
You can do without a few of the major components, and the system will still
be functional.
You can get to a high level of functionality with only a generator, and add
other
modular components to improve efficiency and convenience over time as your
schedule and budget allows.
For example, you could skip the inverters and battery bank for now, and run
entirely
from the generator. Sure, you will have to deal with noise at night for a
while, and you
may be less efficient for periods where your loads are low (lighting only),
but you
would immediately have heat and plenty of power to run your largest loads.
That is one
tradeoff you could make, but others are possible. PV panels are also quite
modular, and
can be added a few at a time over several years if necessary.
The generator itself is a modular component. You can put one into service
now, and
if you find a more appropriate one at a later time, you can replace it. In
the case of
a cogen system, you can have your heat distribution system in place,
underground wiring
and plumbing run to the generator pad. If you plan it right, it should not
be too difficult to
replace the generator with a different model, and you might only have to
make
minor allowances to reconnect a different model generator.
So, maybe your first generator is a liquid cooled diesel, but 3600 rpm. Your
desire for
a slower speed generator could be satisfied at a later time by swapping out
the 3600 for
a slow speed generator. The initial generator could give you both power and
time
to shop for or even build your own more optimal generator. And, you should
be able to sell
the initial generator and recover most of your investment. Of course,
finding and installing the
right generator on the first try is always preferable, even if you have to
spend more money than
you would have hoped.
Time is money. So, take into consideration the value of your time necessary
to "cobble"
a generator. That consideration might make buying (instead of building) a
complete generator
more desirable.
Also, an off-the-shelf generator will be a more valuable capitol asset to
your
real-estate. Consider how a buyer would place value on a homemade generator
versus a commercially produced unit. "If that thing needs repair or dies,
can I readily get parts or a replacement". The average buyer will be leery
of alternative energy systems of any type just because they are different
than what they are used to. They will (and should) be more leery of "one of
a kind" homemade components that might require special skills or parts
fabrication.
If it were me, I'd stay focused on finding an off-the-shelf generator that
fit my
long term needs, even if it hurt my budget and schedule for acquiring other
components.
I might use a wood stove to provide heat to allow me the time to install and
perfect the cogen
heating system.
Next, I'd add a good size battery bank and inverters.
Lastly, I'd add enough PV to keep the batteries from self discharging.
Then, I'd incrementally add more PV, and other bells and whistles.
The generator you want is out there, waiting for you to find it.
Stay focused and keep looking.
"Ecnerwal" <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote in message
news:LawrenceSMITH-18014E.23265803012006@news.verizon.net...
> Push is coming to shove - I need heat, and that means I need to buy the
> diesel genset that is going to be the heart of my power (and heating)
> system.
>
> Location is southern Vermont. Solar potential is not so great
> (mountains, trees) but I will have some panels to help with the battery
> bank - can't begin to afford to run the whole thing off them through the
> bad months (Nov, Dec), however; thus, Mr Diesel.
>
> Rough system description: it's a shop and eventually a house - shop
> involves several big, not ever going to be "low consumption" loads. But
> it's a one-person shop, at present more night and weekend than daily
> (though those nights are going to need some lighting that's far beyond a
> few compact florescents, my aging eyes tell me). Diesel genset, a couple
> of inverters (likely Outback, also not bought yet), battery bank,
> whatever PV I can afford, also some solar heat/hot water panels. Radiant
> heat in the floor - tubing is already in place.
>
> "Parsimonious man" is contemplating a used diesel of some sort (ie, old
> VW engine, old Kubota engine) and a generator end to go with. Have had
> diddly luck finding assembled used low-speed liquid-cooled diesel
> generator at a low enough price to bother (other than HUGE ones, which
> are very suspect at low prices, and not efficient at small loads, not to
> mention being unmanageably large). Cobbling will take time, any problems
> are all my problems.
>
> "Spend it once and get the agony over with man" is leaning towards some
> flavor of brand-new genset, with warrantee, and I'll know I've done the
> maintenance on it.
>
> --
> Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
|
|
"Ecnerwal" <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote in message
news:LawrenceSMITH-18014E.23265803012006@news.verizon.net...
> Push is coming to shove - I need heat, and that means I need to buy the
> diesel genset that is going to be the heart of my power (and heating)
> system.
>
> Location is southern Vermont. Solar potential is not so great
> (mountains, trees) but I will have some panels to help with the battery
> bank - can't begin to afford to run the whole thing off them through the
> bad months (Nov, Dec), however; thus, Mr Diesel.
>
> Rough system description: it's a shop and eventually a house - shop
> involves several big, not ever going to be "low consumption" loads. But
> it's a one-person shop, at present more night and weekend than daily
> (though those nights are going to need some lighting that's far beyond a
> few compact florescents, my aging eyes tell me). Diesel genset, a couple
> of inverters (likely Outback, also not bought yet), battery bank,
> whatever PV I can afford, also some solar heat/hot water panels. Radiant
> heat in the floor - tubing is already in place.
>
> "Parsimonious man" is contemplating a used diesel of some sort (ie, old
> VW engine, old Kubota engine) and a generator end to go with. Have had
> diddly luck finding assembled used low-speed liquid-cooled diesel
> generator at a low enough price to bother (other than HUGE ones, which
> are very suspect at low prices, and not efficient at small loads, not to
> mention being unmanageably large). Cobbling will take time, any problems
> are all my problems.
>
> "Spend it once and get the agony over with man" is leaning towards some
> flavor of brand-new genset, with warrantee, and I'll know I've done the
> maintenance on it.
>
> --
> Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Lets see cobbling and being cold,,,,, not in my life.
Lockinvar and others have some fuel powered water heaters/ boilers. Might
help on the size requirement of the genset. I spent 2 years off and on
looking at military sales. Found one water cooled, trailer mounted genset,
with reasonable hours. Got to talking to the person at the depot when he
suggested that we stroll over to the water fountain. While he was bent over
drinking he mentioned that the unit I was looking at was being sold cause
the military could not get parts anymore. Now that would have been fun. 30
Kw and it sold for $4500.00. Some rancher out Yuma way bought it.
Phone company used to sell their gensets, high hours, and where I live
unless you flat stumble over the sale they are gone before you can blink.
In truth warranties are worthless pieces of paper unless you have local
support. I would start with the local contractors and see what they
support. You might pay more, but that would be better than "sending it
back" to get fixed.
| |
| ghostwriter 2006-01-04, 7:21 pm |
| Skip sizing the diesel for the heating and get a pellet stove for
heating. That will allow you to have a smaller generator and not have
excess power in the summertime.
Ghostwriter
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-04, 8:21 pm |
| Ecnerwal wrote:
> Push is coming to shove - I need heat, and that means I need to buy the
> diesel genset that is going to be the heart of my power (and heating)
> system.
>
> Location is southern Vermont. Solar potential is not so great
> (mountains, trees) but I will have some panels to help with the battery
> bank - can't begin to afford to run the whole thing off them through the
> bad months (Nov, Dec), however; thus, Mr Diesel.
>
> Rough system description: it's a shop and eventually a house - shop
> involves several big, not ever going to be "low consumption" loads. But
> it's a one-person shop, at present more night and weekend than daily
> (though those nights are going to need some lighting that's far beyond a
> few compact florescents, my aging eyes tell me). Diesel genset, a couple
> of inverters (likely Outback, also not bought yet), battery bank,
> whatever PV I can afford, also some solar heat/hot water panels. Radiant
> heat in the floor - tubing is already in place.
>
> "Parsimonious man" is contemplating a used diesel of some sort (ie, old
> VW engine, old Kubota engine) and a generator end to go with. Have had
> diddly luck finding assembled used low-speed liquid-cooled diesel
> generator at a low enough price to bother (other than HUGE ones, which
> are very suspect at low prices, and not efficient at small loads, not to
> mention being unmanageably large). Cobbling will take time, any problems
> are all my problems.
>
> "Spend it once and get the agony over with man" is leaning towards some
> flavor of brand-new genset, with warrantee, and I'll know I've done the
> maintenance on it.
>
You can get a very nice detroit from www.affordablepower.com or a
listeroid from www.utterpower.com.
We run the detroit on a daily basis on veggie oil. Love it.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-04, 8:21 pm |
| philkryder wrote:
> How big is too big?
> How ugly is too ugly...
> How expensive is too much?
>
> Some people really like these 2-71s.
> I'm actually surprised these are rated at only 12.5 kw...
>
>
They are rated at 68hp, allowing one to put a variety of gen heads on
them up to about 30kw.
I like my 12.5kw installed unit.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-01-04, 9:21 pm |
| Ecnerwal wrote:
> Push is coming to shove - I need heat, and that means I need to buy the
> diesel genset that is going to be the heart of my power (and heating)
> system.
>
> Location is southern Vermont. Solar potential is not so great
> (mountains, trees) but I will have some panels to help with the battery
> bank - can't begin to afford to run the whole thing off them through the
> bad months (Nov, Dec), however; thus, Mr Diesel.
>
> Rough system description: it's a shop and eventually a house - shop
> involves several big, not ever going to be "low consumption" loads. But
> it's a one-person shop, at present more night and weekend than daily
> (though those nights are going to need some lighting that's far beyond a
> few compact florescents, my aging eyes tell me). Diesel genset, a couple
> of inverters (likely Outback, also not bought yet), battery bank,
> whatever PV I can afford, also some solar heat/hot water panels. Radiant
> heat in the floor - tubing is already in place.
>
> "Parsimonious man" is contemplating a used diesel of some sort (ie, old
> VW engine, old Kubota engine) and a generator end to go with. Have had
> diddly luck finding assembled used low-speed liquid-cooled diesel
> generator at a low enough price to bother (other than HUGE ones, which
> are very suspect at low prices, and not efficient at small loads, not to
> mention being unmanageably large). Cobbling will take time, any problems
> are all my problems.
>
> "Spend it once and get the agony over with man" is leaning towards some
> flavor of brand-new genset, with warrantee, and I'll know I've done the
> maintenance on it.
Would a Listeroid suit your purposes?
NT
| |
| JoeSP 2006-01-04, 10:21 pm |
|
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:43bc5a70$1_1@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
> We run the detroit on a daily basis on veggie oil. Love it.
Nice if you've got dibs on all the waste veg oil in the neighborhood.
Unfortunately that only works for a few, and it will never be a sustainable
solution for everyone.
| |
|
|
| Ecnerwal 2006-01-05, 1:21 am |
| In article <1136421941.833147.118510@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
meow2222@care2.com wrote:
> Would a Listeroid suit your purposes?
The whole importing from India bit and higher daily/1000 hour
maintenance (scraping the carbon...) seem like a poor fit, especially
since I really want this to be set up in a configuration where the
system can autostart the generator when the batteries need to be charged
and the other sources are not doing it. Also, fuel consumption per KW
looks to be north of 0.1 gallon/KWH, while 1800 RPM "modern" units of
reasonable size are commonly doing 0.08 or less. I can paint a newer set
some weird color and give it pinstripes if I feel too left out. The guy
in Florida with one in his backyard hangar has been a good source for
tales, both of success and woe. I was amused, interested, and ultimately
came to my senses reading through that - not a great setup for
unattended operation, IMO.
Steve has a 2-71. Bruce's past comments have pretty well steered me away
from much interest in 2-71s, and the engines are oversized for my needs,
anyway. Steve, what sort of gallon/KWH conversion are you getting on
that setup? Everything I read indicates that running a diesel
(long-term) much below 50% load is a questionable practice, and not too
fuel efficient, either. Beyond which, if one buys a unit that is
actually checked out, the price is not all that great .vs. a brand new,
more fuel efficient unit with a lot more warrantee. While my front
loader bucket can theoretically pick up a 2000-lb-plus object, it's a
lot easier to pick up a 500-600lb object with the back hoe to put it
where it needs to go. Plus, the smaller one will not break the springs
on my truck getting there...
ghostwriter and SQLit seem to think that my genset is being "oversized"
to make heat - nothing further from the truth - I'm looking at 15KW or
less, and I'll have heat to spare when it runs. The building is SIP
(lots of insulation), and the heat load on a -20F day is only 22KBTU/hr
or so; up to 36-60KBTU/hr (17KW thermal) or so depending on ventilation
rate and heat recovery on ventilation. By sucking heat both from the
water jacket and from a used boiler with the generator exhaust placed in
place of the oil gun (and probably an induced draft fan on the chimney
for good measure, depending what the CO meter thinks, inside a generator
shack completely separate from the shop), a 6KW genset would provide the
waste heat needed while running at 1/2-3/4 load or so.
However, most of the very small diesel sets are high speed and air
cooled, and the water-cooled low-speed ones I've looked at are mostly a
big motor running a small generator end, so the fuel efficiency is poor
compared to a slightly larger unit (generally the same engine with a
better-matched generator). Also, if the genset is too small, then an
inverter failure will be more difficult to deal with, as I'd be
depending on the inverters to start motor loads that a small generator
might not manage alone.
I don't want either the generator or an open flame in the shop (the fire
dept will come by to roast marshmallows - by the time they arrive here,
"containment" is about all that's possible), though a wood boiler
in/near the generator shack is a possibility. If cold and no need to
charge batteries combine, an electric water heating element or two in
the loop will put all the genset's effort/fuel into heating.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| philkryder 2006-01-05, 3:21 am |
| Are you fully convinced to go Diesel rather than Propane?
I'm really liking Nicks ideas of using the small Hondas on LP or NG.
Look very carefully at your cost of fuel per kw.
It may be that the better efficiencies of the Hondas and the warrantees
and the ability to only run one at a time when needed and add a second
later, will save you enough on fuel to make them cost less in the long
run...
Or, at least they will be close enough that the added bother of the
"big iron" isn't worth it. 50 cents an hour savings over a 10,000 hour
life will more than pay for the Hondas. Fuel costs will likely dominate
over capital costs.
My experience indicates that if you really NEED a generator, then you
NEED a second or third one for backup - That is where the small Hondas
shine because they are very modular. The concern would be if they will
they handle your langest load.
The big engines -detroit, perkins, cat, whatever, are going to be a
bigger investment risk and could end up being a bunch of work in and of
themselves - whereas it sounds like you want to spend time in your shop
working on "real" projects and not just keeping your gen sets running.
The danger is that once you make the investment in them, you will feel
compelled by the sunk costs to "make them work"...
Ecnerwal wrote:
> In article <1136421941.833147.118510@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
>
> The whole importing from India bit and higher daily/1000 hour
> maintenance (scraping the carbon...) seem like a poor fit, especially
> since I really want this to be set up in a configuration where the
> system can autostart the generator when the batteries need to be charged
> and the other sources are not doing it. Also, fuel consumption per KW
> looks to be north of 0.1 gallon/KWH, while 1800 RPM "modern" units of
> reasonable size are commonly doing 0.08 or less. I can paint a newer set
> some weird color and give it pinstripes if I feel too left out. The guy
> in Florida with one in his backyard hangar has been a good source for
> tales, both of success and woe. I was amused, interested, and ultimately
> came to my senses reading through that - not a great setup for
> unattended operation, IMO.
>
> Steve has a 2-71. Bruce's past comments have pretty well steered me away
> from much interest in 2-71s, and the engines are oversized for my needs,
> anyway. Steve, what sort of gallon/KWH conversion are you getting on
> that setup? Everything I read indicates that running a diesel
> (long-term) much below 50% load is a questionable practice, and not too
> fuel efficient, either. Beyond which, if one buys a unit that is
> actually checked out, the price is not all that great .vs. a brand new,
> more fuel efficient unit with a lot more warrantee. While my front
> loader bucket can theoretically pick up a 2000-lb-plus object, it's a
> lot easier to pick up a 500-600lb object with the back hoe to put it
> where it needs to go. Plus, the smaller one will not break the springs
> on my truck getting there...
>
> ghostwriter and SQLit seem to think that my genset is being "oversized"
> to make heat - nothing further from the truth - I'm looking at 15KW or
> less, and I'll have heat to spare when it runs. The building is SIP
> (lots of insulation), and the heat load on a -20F day is only 22KBTU/hr
> or so; up to 36-60KBTU/hr (17KW thermal) or so depending on ventilation
> rate and heat recovery on ventilation. By sucking heat both from the
> water jacket and from a used boiler with the generator exhaust placed in
> place of the oil gun (and probably an induced draft fan on the chimney
> for good measure, depending what the CO meter thinks, inside a generator
> shack completely separate from the shop), a 6KW genset would provide the
> waste heat needed while running at 1/2-3/4 load or so.
>
> However, most of the very small diesel sets are high speed and air
> cooled, and the water-cooled low-speed ones I've looked at are mostly a
> big motor running a small generator end, so the fuel efficiency is poor
> compared to a slightly larger unit (generally the same engine with a
> better-matched generator). Also, if the genset is too small, then an
> inverter failure will be more difficult to deal with, as I'd be
> depending on the inverters to start motor loads that a small generator
> might not manage alone.
>
> I don't want either the generator or an open flame in the shop (the fire
> dept will come by to roast marshmallows - by the time they arrive here,
> "containment" is about all that's possible), though a wood boiler
> in/near the generator shack is a possibility. If cold and no need to
> charge batteries combine, an electric water heating element or two in
> the loop will put all the genset's effort/fuel into heating.
>
> --
> Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-05, 10:21 am |
| JoeSP wrote:
> "Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
> news:43bc5a70$1_1@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
>
>
> Nice if you've got dibs on all the waste veg oil in the neighborhood.
> Unfortunately that only works for a few, and it will never be a sustainable
> solution for everyone.
>
>
I use 10 gallons a day. All the wvo in the "neighborhood" runs into the
thousands of gallons. No risk of me cutting others out.
This is a "homepower" group you know .....
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-05, 10:21 am |
| philkryder wrote:
> Steve - Did you get your 2-71 from Affordable?
> If so,
> Did you get it "as is" - "refurbed" or "rebuilt"?
>
>
>
Yes, I got mine from affordable power. I got the "tested good, as is" unit.
I have over 4000 hours on it so far with no major issues.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-05, 10:21 am |
| Ecnerwal wrote:
> In article <1136421941.833147.118510@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> The whole importing from India bit and higher daily/1000 hour
> maintenance (scraping the carbon...) seem like a poor fit, especially
> since I really want this to be set up in a configuration where the
> system can autostart the generator when the batteries need to be charged
> and the other sources are not doing it. Also, fuel consumption per KW
> looks to be north of 0.1 gallon/KWH, while 1800 RPM "modern" units of
> reasonable size are commonly doing 0.08 or less. I can paint a newer set
> some weird color and give it pinstripes if I feel too left out. The guy
> in Florida with one in his backyard hangar has been a good source for
> tales, both of success and woe. I was amused, interested, and ultimately
> came to my senses reading through that - not a great setup for
> unattended operation, IMO.
I disagree, I have seen Listers running unattended for 20+ years, just
oil and fuel added as necessary.
>
> Steve has a 2-71. Bruce's past comments have pretty well steered me away
> from much interest in 2-71s, and the engines are oversized for my needs,
> anyway. Steve, what sort of gallon/KWH conversion are you getting on
> that setup? Everything I read indicates that running a diesel
> (long-term) much below 50% load is a questionable practice, and not too
> fuel efficient, either. Beyond which, if one buys a unit that is
> actually checked out, the price is not all that great .vs. a brand new,
> more fuel efficient unit with a lot more warrantee. While my front
> loader bucket can theoretically pick up a 2000-lb-plus object, it's a
> lot easier to pick up a 500-600lb object with the back hoe to put it
> where it needs to go. Plus, the smaller one will not break the springs
> on my truck getting there...
I don't recall Bruce having much experience with a 2-71, he can correct
me if I'm wrong. We run ours daily for 10-12 hours at .75 gallons / hour
using 8kw average load. Even at full load the fuel consumption really
doesn't change much, as the engine is capable of providing 30+kw.
It provides enough free heat to keep my greenhouse at 80F on 9F days.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
|
| Ecnerwal 2006-01-05, 11:21 am |
| philkryder wrote:
> Are you fully convinced to go Diesel rather than Propane?
Pretty much. Propane means carbureted engines, and carbureted engines
are shockingly inefficient at partial load. My present air-cooled 3600
RPM gasoline generator could be converted to propane, but is such an
irritating gas-hog that I'm not convinced it's worth the trouble and
expense to do so. Last time I bothered to run down local prices, LPG at
~94.5 KBTU/gallon was more expensive per BTU (or KWH generated) than
diesel at 138 KBTU/gallon. Still very true from the link below in this
area (equating home heating oil with off-road-diesel which is basically
true, though even diesel with road taxes is better per delivered BTU
than propane at present prices, per the second link for an "actual
diesel" price)
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/p..._dcus_SVT_w.htm
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/p..._dcus_r1x_w.htm
Diesel engines come pretty close to scaling fuel consumption directly
with load from ~1/2 load to full load, and also have much better
longevity (operating hours per rebuild), on average. As a minor
additional aspect, diesel is just a bit safer, flammability-wise.
Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
> I use 10 gallons a day. All the wvo in the "neighborhood" runs into the
> thousands of gallons. No risk of me cutting others out.
Expect WVO to be collected by commercial biodiesel operations in the
near future. If they pay even a nominal amount, I expect "free" WVO to
vanish, and have already heard reports of places that will not release
it, as it's already contracted for. Regardless of cost to make it, I
fully expect the end product to be at or above (it's eco-friendly - pay
extra!) petro-diesel prices when it comes out the far end of such
operations.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| JoeSP 2006-01-05, 11:21 am |
|
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:43bd23f4_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> JoeSP wrote:
>
> I use 10 gallons a day. All the wvo in the "neighborhood" runs into the
> thousands of gallons. No risk of me cutting others out.
>
> This is a "homepower" group you know .....
Well, OK, there's no need for any gas stations in your neighborhood.
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-05, 11:21 am |
| JoeSP wrote:
> "Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
> news:43bd23f4_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
>
>
> Well, OK, there's no need for any gas stations in your neighborhood.
>
>
Not for the dozen of us in our group there isn't. We use veggie in our
suburbans, generators, and furnaces.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2006-01-05, 4:21 pm |
| In article <LawrenceSMITH-521B17.00034405012006@news.verizon.net>,
Ecnerwal <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote:
>
> Steve has a 2-71. Bruce's past comments have pretty well steered me away
> from much interest in 2-71s, and the engines are oversized for my needs,
> anyway. Steve, what sort of gallon/KWH conversion are you getting on
> that setup? Everything I read indicates that running a diesel
> (long-term) much below 50% load is a questionable practice, and not too
> fuel efficient, either.
Well now, don't get the wrong idea here about Jimmy Diesel Engines 2-71's
or any other 53, 71, or 92 series. They are a viable Primemover....I
just don't really care for 2 cycle diesels, as they have serious
drawbacks, in my enviorment.
Your preception of running diesel gensets at less than 50% load, just
doesn't have any basis in fact for most operations. 2 Cycle diesels
will tend to "wetstack" at short loads, but this is certainly not a
really big opertainal problem, if one knows what "wetstaking" is, and how
to deal with its issues.
Diesel engines will operate just dandy at 25% loads, IF they are
operated at Designed Running Temps. (180-200F)
Diesel engines are very linear in Fuel In/Work Out Ratio, once the
basic mechanical rotating enertia is satisfied.
Mostly, anything less than 150Kw is going to be naturally asperated so
aftercooling and other fancy HP inducing engneering efforts aren't going
to factor into efficency of the genset.
In your range of Power, your not likely to buy anythng new, that is a US
Designed or Manufactured. Most of the engines below 40Hp are either
Japanesse, or Korean these days.
I just got a NEW 20Kw Northern Lights that is a MIsubushi Block, and is
just "Sweet". I think even Isuzu has stopped producing engines below
40Hp, and their engines are know for longevity.
There are a pile of folks rebuilding J Series Onan Engines, and getting
good operational life out of them in Diesel/LP/NG and Gas Setups. I own
three xDJA Onan 3Kw gensets myself, and a neighbor has a pair of xDJB/E
6Kw Onan's. I used to have a pair of DJC 12.5Kw Onans here for
PrimePower, but they were replaced with the 20Kw Northern Lights when
the load increased past what they could put out, 20 years ago. Never
really like the DJC's as they were air cooled, and noisy, but the water
cooled versions are nice and quiet, and have been known to be very
dependable. The modern Onan/Cummins small Power Gesets have way to
much in the way of fancy controller systems for my taste. Nothing like
a simple Safety Shutdwon system that you can troubleshoot with a Radio
Shack volt/Ohm Meter, when it stops in the middle of the night, at -10F.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
|
| In article <43bd2610$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
> I disagree, I have seen Listers running unattended for 20+ years, just
> oil and fuel added as necessary.
Real Listers, YES, Lister Clones from India, Not likely........
Me
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2006-01-05, 5:21 pm |
| In article <43bc5acc_1@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
> philkryder wrote:
> They are rated at 68hp, allowing one to put a variety of gen heads on
> them up to about 30kw.
>
> I like my 12.5kw installed unit.
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
There is one thing to rememberin quoting HP/Kw ratings on diesel
engines. The HP/Kw Rating is at a specific RPM, and your 2-71 isn't
going to produce 30Kw at 1200 Rpm, that your 6 Pole Genset needs to
output it's power. Go back and check the spec's if you want, but
2-71's are rated at 30Kw, only at, or above 2.5K Rpm. Even at
1800 Rpm they are considerable lower than 30Kw.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| philkryder 2006-01-05, 6:21 pm |
| Is the ford you "backup" unit or are you on grid for backup...?
Steve Spence wrote:
> philkryder wrote:
>
> I'd never go with another propane engine. More trouble than it's worth
> in our climate, and very expensive to run. We have a 30kw 4cyl ford
> powered unit.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-05, 8:21 pm |
| Me wrote:
> In article <43bd2610$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
> Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Real Listers, YES, Lister Clones from India, Not likely........
>
> Me
It only takes a bit of machining and cleaning up to make a listeroid
perform like a lister.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-05, 8:21 pm |
| Bruce in Alaska wrote:
> In article <43bc5acc_1@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
> Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> There is one thing to rememberin quoting HP/Kw ratings on diesel
> engines. The HP/Kw Rating is at a specific RPM, and your 2-71 isn't
> going to produce 30Kw at 1200 Rpm, that your 6 Pole Genset needs to
> output it's power. Go back and check the spec's if you want, but
> 2-71's are rated at 30Kw, only at, or above 2.5K Rpm. Even at
> 1800 Rpm they are considerable lower than 30Kw.
>
>
> Bruce in alaska
I don't have a hp/rpm curve handy for the 2-71
I can't imagine running this beast above 1800 rpm's ......
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-05, 8:21 pm |
| philkryder wrote:
> Is the ford you "backup" unit or are you on grid for backup...?
>
> Steve Spence wrote:
>
>
>
The propane ford unit is for grid backup for our children's camp and
retreat center. My detroit is my off-grid prime power unit.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| SolarFlare 2006-01-05, 10:21 pm |
| Steve drives a "French Fry Wagon"
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in
message news:43bd352b$1_1@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> Not for the dozen of us in our group there isn't. We
use veggie in our
> suburbans, generators, and furnaces.
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
|
| Richard W. 2006-01-06, 12:21 am |
|
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:43bdaf99$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> Me wrote:
>
> It only takes a bit of machining and cleaning up to make a listeroid
> perform like a lister.
>
>
I thought the India engines used inferior material? If not then what
machining are you talking about?
| |
| SolarFlare 2006-01-06, 12:21 am |
| Ford "PotatoMobile XL"
Does it smell like a fry wagon? People tell me they do.
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in
message news:43bdd40c$1_1@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> SolarFlare wrote:
>
> I also produce all my electricity from used french
fry "juice".
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
|
| Harmon Seaver 2006-01-06, 6:21 pm |
| Richard W. wrote:
> "Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
> news:43bdaf99$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
>
>
> I thought the India engines used inferior material? If not then what
> machining are you talking about?
>
>
Where did you get that idea? India pioneered steel, long before the
europeans made it. Nothing wrong with Indian steel, as a rule. The only
problem I've heard of with Indian listers is that some companies weren't
cleaning out the casting sand -- but that was quite upfront and the
buyer was expected to do that before first run. Cheaper for the enduser
that way, easily done, and gets you better acquainted with the machine
from the start, since you will be doing all the maintenance anyway.
I'd love to have one -- but that said, junkyard small truck diesels
are so cheap, even free, that I can't justify paying for one. I got a
'82 nissan 2.2L diesel with only 120K on it -- beautiful shape, starts
and runs perfectly --- free. Got a IHC 466-TD in great shape for $1250.
| |
| Harmon Seaver 2006-01-06, 6:21 pm |
| JoeSP wrote:
> "Ecnerwal" <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote in message
> news:LawrenceSMITH-18014E.23265803012006@news.verizon.net...
>
>
> If you rely on the diesel for all the heat, you may be running the unit a
> lot more than necessary. If you don't have a need for the extra electricity
> produced, it will be a waste.
Best solution is running the diesel on woodgas and selling the
extra power to the power company thru net-metering. In WI here I could
get all my heat and electric free and get paid about $20K a year for my
trouble if I ran a little diesel 20kw genset on renewables like veggie
oil and woodgas.
But even running diesel fuel, as 125BTU a gallon, you don't need to
run the engine all that much to heat the average size house.
| |
| Ignoramus22991 2006-01-17, 7:21 pm |
| On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:27:01 GMT, Ecnerwal <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote:
> Push is coming to shove - I need heat, and that means I need to buy the
> diesel genset that is going to be the heart of my power (and heating)
> system.
>
> Location is southern Vermont. Solar potential is not so great
> (mountains, trees) but I will have some panels to help with the battery
> bank - can't begin to afford to run the whole thing off them through the
> bad months (Nov, Dec), however; thus, Mr Diesel.
>
> Rough system description: it's a shop and eventually a house - shop
> involves several big, not ever going to be "low consumption" loads. But
> it's a one-person shop, at present more night and weekend than daily
> (though those nights are going to need some lighting that's far beyond a
> few compact florescents, my aging eyes tell me). Diesel genset, a couple
> of inverters (likely Outback, also not bought yet), battery bank,
> whatever PV I can afford, also some solar heat/hot water panels. Radiant
> heat in the floor - tubing is already in place.
>
> "Parsimonious man" is contemplating a used diesel of some sort (ie, old
> VW engine, old Kubota engine) and a generator end to go with. Have had
> diddly luck finding assembled used low-speed liquid-cooled diesel
> generator at a low enough price to bother (other than HUGE ones, which
> are very suspect at low prices, and not efficient at small loads, not to
> mention being unmanageably large). Cobbling will take time, any problems
> are all my problems.
>
> "Spend it once and get the agony over with man" is leaning towards some
> flavor of brand-new genset, with warrantee, and I'll know I've done the
> maintenance on it.
I think that you would do just fine cobbling something together, based
on what I know about you. On the other hand, it will be costly due to
costs of all those trinkets and thingys and adaptors that are needed
for a properly functioning system.
The military sells a number of fine generators like MEP-003A that you
could buy and use, these would last forever. Last time I checked, they
went for about $1,200. They make 1/3 phase, have all kinds of
safeties, can have a enclosure built over them etc.
i
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-19, 5:21 am |
| I want to turn my generator head with steam, just like the nuclear
power plants do. I might do a little bit of cogeneration with the
steam as it leaves the engine and heats my house. I was looking at the
quasiturbine as the engine. I am planning on making a boiler from an
idea I saw on the journey to forever website. My thinking is that once
you have a furnace like this, you can burn almost anything in it to get
the heat for the steam. You could run used cooking oil, used motor
oil, wood, coal, you name it. A universal boiler so to speak.
http://www.quasiturbine.com/
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel...rearth/me4.html
|
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