Alternative Power sources - Generator Muffler Modifications?

Author

Generator Muffler Modifications?

hoopy@blahblah.net

2006-01-16, 11:21 am

I have a Coleman Powerbase 5000 generator I use just for home
emergencies. It has a Briggs and Stratton 10Hp engine. The stock
muffler is way to loud for me to use with neighbors so close to my
home.

Does anyone know of any good resources,links etc. to where I can get
info. on modifying the stock muffler to produce a quieter one?

Thanks,

UW

Ecnerwal

2006-01-16, 11:21 am

In article <03cns19cla9c1olgie5o91e799iis1arva@4ax.com>,
hoopy@blahblah.net wrote:

> I have a Coleman Powerbase 5000 generator I use just for home
> emergencies. It has a Briggs and Stratton 10Hp engine. The stock
> muffler is way to loud for me to use with neighbors so close to my
> home.
>
> Does anyone know of any good resources,links etc. to where I can get
> info. on modifying the stock muffler to produce a quieter one?

You could try the google advanced groups search on this newsgroup, it's
a frequent topic.

Synopsis: You can put on a better muffler (modifying the current one is
quite doubtful). Car mufflers (with home-brew adapters) work, or you can
get better mufflers already made to fit by someone else (such as Jack's
small engines, or others). A heavy muffler should be isolated from the
engine by flex tubing, which can be expensive. Back-pressure is not much
of an issue if you go to even small-car exhaust components, as they are
for engines a lot bigger than your generator motor.

But: The best muffler in the world won't do anything about all the other
noise that an air-cooled engine throws off. Which is a lot.

So: then you get into enclosures ("mufflers" for the whole generator).
These need to allow for adequate cooling airflow, intake air, and
exhaust. Routing and baffling those airflows to effectively block noise
while permitting enough airflow so as not to cook the generator is a bit
of work, but not impossible if you are reasonably clever. On the
simplest end, a sturdy fence which ends up directing most of the sound
UP works well enough for some folks. Others have built fiberglass-lined
doghouses, some of which are even decorated to really look like a
doghouse...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Harry Chickpea

2006-01-16, 12:21 pm

hoopy@blahblah.net wrote:

>I have a Coleman Powerbase 5000 generator I use just for home
>emergencies. It has a Briggs and Stratton 10Hp engine. The stock
>muffler is way to loud for me to use with neighbors so close to my
>home.
>
>Does anyone know of any good resources,links etc. to where I can get
>info. on modifying the stock muffler to produce a quieter one?

It has been covered a number of times that the noise is not just from
the muffler, and changing out the muffler will have minimal effect. A
sandbag wall around the generator has been mentioned as a possibility,
and enclosures are possible, but noise is just the nature of the
beast. FWIW, take the generator to most muffler shops and they can
use the muffler for a subcompact car and threaded pipe to weld up your
substitute muffler.

Mr Wizzard

2006-01-16, 5:21 pm

<hoopy@blahblah.net> wrote in message
news:03cns19cla9c1olgie5o91e799iis1arva@4ax.com...
> I have a Coleman Powerbase 5000 generator I use just for home
> emergencies. It has a Briggs and Stratton 10Hp engine. The stock
> muffler is way to loud for me to use with neighbors so close to my
> home.
>
> Does anyone know of any good resources,links etc. to where I can get
> info. on modifying the stock muffler to produce a quieter one?

Had the EXACT same generator, been there, done that!
Then sold it and got the Honda eu2000i and love it! As
far as an answer to your question, yes, I did manage to
solve the noise problem before I sold it, but it was a bit
of a challange. Being able to weld (arc, TIG, MIG etc),
I tried ALL sorts of scratch-design mufflers, none worked.
Then! - I went with an ATV muffler. Yup!, I bought a
bunch of ATV (4-wheel recreational vechile) mufflers
on E-bay (lots of em there) and starting experimenting.
The one that worked the best was from a Yamaha I
think, Since most ATV-heads are all interested in hopping
up their ATV's, they all sell their original stock mufflers
on E-bay. Its a long thing with a heat shield, and a long
inlet pipe. Handed up putting rubber shock mounts
along the side of the gen frame, hacked off the long
inlet pipe into a bunch of pieces, and TIG welded up
a custom pipe to make the 90 to the engine. Works
well, and I'd have to say it sucked up 99.97% of the
noise (if not more) - it was amazing. The challange is
mounting the muffler since the gen frame is fixed, and
the engine in on rubber mounts and dances around.
I was concerned that this would crack the pipe/welds.
But since I had the long ATV muffler mounted to the
side of the gen frame on rubber shock mounts too,
it seemed to be ok. If you are crafty with either one
of them cheesy Lincoln wire-feed MIG welders, or
a "real" welder for this purpose (TIG welder), then
this is a worth while endeavor for you. I was simply
AMAZED that this ATV muffler worked SO darn
well. If not, just get the ATV muffler on Ebay, and
take the generator, and ATV muffler to the local
welding/fab shop, an have them make it fit/work.
It takes the generator to truely "un"usable in any
kind of residental neighborhood to very usable.
Good luck!

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> UW

Mr Wizzard

2006-01-16, 5:21 pm

"Harry Chickpea" <hchickpeaREMOVEME@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43cbb8a0.2250477@localhost...
> hoopy@blahblah.net wrote:
>
>
> It has been covered a number of times that the noise is not just from
> the muffler, and changing out the muffler will have minimal effect. A
> sandbag wall around the generator has been mentioned as a possibility,
> and enclosures are possible, but noise is just the nature of the
> beast. FWIW, take the generator to most muffler shops and they can
> use the muffler for a subcompact car and threaded pipe to weld up your
> substitute muffler.

Tried all of that - subcompacts are all 4 cylinder,
and not tuned for a 1-cylinder ehxaust note. See
adjacent post, but ATV mufflers are the way to
go, and there is a particular Yahamma ATV one
that works like pure magic on this B&S 10HP.
(I can see if I can dig up the Yamaha model)

>

philkryder

2006-01-16, 7:21 pm

So, it sounds like your muffler experience was very successful.

Your experience seems to contradict some of the opinions expressed by
others that the other components (?perhaps air cooling fan?) create so
much noise that even the best muffler won't help.

Did you do any other silencing work other than the muffler?

Thanks
Phil

Mr Wizzard wrote:[color=darkred]
> <hoopy@blahblah.net> wrote in message
> news:03cns19cla9c1olgie5o91e799iis1arva@4ax.com...
>
> Had the EXACT same generator, been there, done that!
> Then sold it and got the Honda eu2000i and love it! As
> far as an answer to your question, yes, I did manage to
> solve the noise problem before I sold it, but it was a bit
> of a challange. Being able to weld (arc, TIG, MIG etc),
> I tried ALL sorts of scratch-design mufflers, none worked.
> Then! - I went with an ATV muffler. Yup!, I bought a
> bunch of ATV (4-wheel recreational vechile) mufflers
> on E-bay (lots of em there) and starting experimenting.
> The one that worked the best was from a Yamaha I
> think, Since most ATV-heads are all interested in hopping
> up their ATV's, they all sell their original stock mufflers
> on E-bay. Its a long thing with a heat shield, and a long
> inlet pipe. Handed up putting rubber shock mounts
> along the side of the gen frame, hacked off the long
> inlet pipe into a bunch of pieces, and TIG welded up
> a custom pipe to make the 90 to the engine. Works
> well, and I'd have to say it sucked up 99.97% of the
> noise (if not more) - it was amazing. The challange is
> mounting the muffler since the gen frame is fixed, and
> the engine in on rubber mounts and dances around.
> I was concerned that this would crack the pipe/welds.
> But since I had the long ATV muffler mounted to the
> side of the gen frame on rubber shock mounts too,
> it seemed to be ok. If you are crafty with either one
> of them cheesy Lincoln wire-feed MIG welders, or
> a "real" welder for this purpose (TIG welder), then
> this is a worth while endeavor for you. I was simply
> AMAZED that this ATV muffler worked SO darn
> well. If not, just get the ATV muffler on Ebay, and
> take the generator, and ATV muffler to the local
> welding/fab shop, an have them make it fit/work.
> It takes the generator to truely "un"usable in any
> kind of residental neighborhood to very usable.
> Good luck!
>
>
>
>

Mr Wizzard

2006-01-16, 8:21 pm

"philkryder" <alt.google@Kryder.com> wrote in message
news:1137449751.257662.166310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> So, it sounds like your muffler experience was very successful.

Oh, dude, you have NO idea.

>
> Your experience seems to contradict some of the opinions expressed by
> others that the other components (?perhaps air cooling fan?) create so
> much noise that even the best muffler won't help.

Ok, well, you touch on some very important points,
and so I need to re-clairify, ans re-state the case.

That exahaust noise from that particular genrator
was SO loud and monotonous (the stock muffler
is not a muffler, its just a "spark arrestor") that it
would drive ME nuts, and I'm used to lots of noise.
Anyways, in my engineering endeavors, I set out
to remove ALL of that exhaust noise, and after
months of experiments, and even tried my hand
at muffler sound engineering (worse than Calculus),
I came up with the ATV muffler thing, and managed
to remove amost "all" of the exhaust noise. And yes,
to the point where all I was hearing was just the cooling
fan noise, and maybe some of the crankcase noise.
So I thought "damn!", if thats all I'm hearing, I done
really good! (which I did). The machine was really
usable at this point (where it wasn't before).

>
> Did you do any other silencing work other than the muffler?

Yeah, so I started in on this aspect, but not to reduce
the remaining noise (since it was night/day difference),
but rather to wheater proof it - I wanted to make a
permanent dog-house thing out in the back yard so that
I wouldn't have to drag the thing out of the shed each
time I needed it. So I set out to do this - I dug a
trench out to the corner of the yard, ran underground
conduit, bunch if 10-gague THHN, yada, yada....
Then "scope creep" set it. Figured, hell, if I do all
*that*, I might as well make it "permanent", right?
Then I started looking into natural gas conversions,
(and as mentioned in a recent post here, found a
kit on-line for this exact same generator). Then I
said, well, if I do *that*, then I'm gonna need a
transfer switch, right? So I got ome of them. Then,
I said, if I do *THAT*, then I'm gonna need electic
start, cause I'm not gonna wanna go outside in the
cold, wet, dark to fire up the generator in the dog
house. So then I started looking into electric start
option kits for this B&S 10HP (Gen series) engine.
Started working with all these on-line small engine
parts houses, and it turnes out that there is a electric
start kit, but you may, or may not need a toothed
ring-gear on the flywheel of that engine. Turns out
that "some" of these 10 HP B&S engines already
have them, some do not - have to run the S/N's
with B&S to know, *or* take the front shrowd
off to see if you have the toothed flywheel or not.
If not, easy to get/install. It was at this point that
I said to myself: hey, what the HellerYa doin ??
Plus other things going on in my life, I abandoned
the whole permanent thing altogether, and back
in the shed the thing went. Sold the transfer switch
(still in box), and the generator. Toyed around
with making a go-cart with that 10HP engine, but
then reality set back in.

So, there you have it. So you want to hear my
story about my other generator? - Honda EX-650?
Naw, just kidding! - no story there anyhow.

If I had to estimate the noise breakdown of the
1,000 db that this thing puts out? well, guessing:
85%-90% is from the exhaust, and there is some
remaining noise from the cooling fans(s), and other,
but since my ears have been ringing ever since,
I may not be a good judge of this (perception wise).

I'm just glad its all over with. I got that generator
brand new at about 25% of original cost due to
scratch/dent, so I couldn't pass it up at the time.

It would have only been of value if:
- I would have completed the enclosure.
- Completed the electric start upgrade.
- Completed the natural gas conversion.

But then I re-evulated my needs. The little
Honda EX-650 I've had for darn near 10
years helped make up my mind. Portability,
low hassle, quiet, and sized for "just" what
I needed out weighed it all hands down.
What would I do with 5,000 - 5,500 watts
when the lights go out anyhow? - I wouldn't
be plugging my TIG welder into it when the
lights go out. All I really "need" is to run the
furnace, the TV (gotta have that!), computer,
and/or laptops, cable modem, the fridge,
maybe the freezer, coffee pot, and the
microwave, and not always at the same
time either. Yeah, true, my new Honda
eu2000i doesn't have 220, so I can't run
the Kenmore cloths dryer, or roast a turkey,
but ca-mon!, its mainly emergency use only.

After all of the many many months screwing
with generators, I have to say, it comes
down to two main catagories. If you want
full-on, fixed, auto start, "do everything"
5,000+ watt type capabilities, then go with
one of them tan colored permanent Generac
tpye deals you see at Sams club, or Home
Depot. If you just want something to service
the necessities in a standard household during
frequent power outages, go with the Honda
eu2000i and a few extension cords. Its
portable enough that even the most fraile
housewife can handle it (and carry it to the
front porch, back porch, driveway, etc).
And it fits nicely on the passenger floor
of a full size pickup/SUV for camping,
and taking it over to the in-laws etc. If you
have a lot of money, and some special
in-between needs, then look at the $2,000
eu-3000i w/ electic start (and no wheels).

This 5,000 generator that we're talking
about here is sort of a trick - its not ment
for residental use (even though it seems
like it is) - its ment for commercial job
sites to run power tools etc at construction
sites (or farm use or some this) - think
about it, at HomeDepot, they are located
right NEXT to the chop-saws, miter saws...

Bottom line: if you are so much as even
"questioning" the noise output of a generator
that you already have, then its *NOT* the
right generator for the given application.
On a construction site you're not worried
about noise, on a farm you're not worried
about noise. If you are at "home", and
you bought a construction-grade generator
by mistake, bite it and sell it on Craigs List,
and go get a Honda eu2000i (or eu1000).

>
> Thanks
> Phil
>
>
> Mr Wizzard wrote:
>

philkryder

2006-01-16, 9:21 pm

thanks much!

We have a very good "below ground" generator location to attenuate the
noise.
But, I appreciate your clear expostition of the real issues.

Thanks again.
Phil

TRecupero

2006-01-16, 10:21 pm

I put mine in a well ventilated shed w/ a fan. Works great.
<hoopy@blahblah.net> wrote in message
news:03cns19cla9c1olgie5o91e799iis1arva@4ax.com...
> I have a Coleman Powerbase 5000 generator I use just for home
> emergencies. It has a Briggs and Stratton 10Hp engine. The stock
> muffler is way to loud for me to use with neighbors so close to my
> home.
>
> Does anyone know of any good resources,links etc. to where I can get
> info. on modifying the stock muffler to produce a quieter one?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> UW

Mr Wizzard

2006-01-16, 10:21 pm

"expostition", hehe....
Yeah, I tend to get on a roll sometimes. Yeah,
you'd need some super absolute (noise related)
advantage to make it feasible to run one of them
"contractor-grade" generators in a residential setting.
I thought I had an advantage getting that generator
for like 25% of cost due to the smash/dent deal, but
like most people, I didn't know any better - it was
the "wrong" type of advantage. Bummer. Maybe
this thread will help prevent people from making the
same mistakes as I did - don't buy an open-frame
contractor grade generator for home use, spend the
money and get one of these new super-quiet deals.
(Either the Honda eu1000i/eu2000i or the Yamaha)

"philkryder" <alt.google@Kryder.com> wrote in message
news:1137458664.447438.185290@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> thanks much!
>
> We have a very good "below ground" generator location to attenuate the
> noise.
> But, I appreciate your clear expostition of the real issues.
>
> Thanks again.
> Phil
>

Mr Wizzard

2006-01-16, 10:21 pm

"TRecupero" <trecupero@sisna.com> wrote in message
news:z5Xyf.20$X25.144403@news.sisna.com...

> I put mine in a well ventilated shed w/ a fan. Works great.

In a residential setting? (7,200 SqFt type lot)

> <hoopy@blahblah.net> wrote in message
> news:03cns19cla9c1olgie5o91e799iis1arva@4ax.com...
>
>

TRecupero

2006-01-17, 9:21 pm

"Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote in message
news:q5mdnVf7LNA9zVHeRVn-hw@comcast.com...
>
> "TRecupero" <trecupero@sisna.com> wrote in message
> news:z5Xyf.20$X25.144403@news.sisna.com...
>
>
> In a residential setting? (7,200 SqFt type lot)
>

Yup, we are talking power outage here, not everyday use. The neighbors
frozen stuff has stayed that way more than once in my freezer on a hot day.
Our lots are smaller than that here.
Down at the farm is a different story, I let the thing roar out in the open.

hoopy@blahblah.net

2006-01-17, 11:21 pm

Thanks for all the input so far. I'll try the Atv solution when time
permits. Thankfully this generator is for emergency use only.

UW

Mr Wizzard

2006-01-19, 2:21 am

"TRecupero" <trecupero@sisna.com> wrote in message
news:yBfzf.84$VF.139401@news.sisna.com...
>
> "Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote in message
> news:q5mdnVf7LNA9zVHeRVn-hw@comcast.com...
>
> Yup, we are talking power outage here, not everyday use. The neighbors
> frozen stuff has stayed that way more than once in my freezer on a hot
day.
> Our lots are smaller than that here.
> Down at the farm is a different story, I let the thing roar out in the
open.

And "roar" it does indeed...
I don't yet have a closed in shed, but will here
sometimes soon. Yeah, short of a shed, (or
farm) things just not ment for residential use.

And hell, if your lots are smaller that that,
why not just toss an entension cord over
the fence and have the neighbors plug
their freezer into that (instead of hauling
the frozen goods over to your freezer) ?

>
>

Buy_Sell

2006-01-19, 5:21 am

Years ago, I saw a product called the Amazing Muffler but I can't seem
to find any references to it anywhere on the internet. It had diamond
shaped chambers inside. At the inlet, the exhaust gas was divided by a
V-shaped piece of metal. Once inside the diamond shaped chamber, the
two exhaust flows would meet up again. The diamond shaped chamber
would allow the two sounds to cancel each other out. Each chamber
would reduce the sound by as much as 70 percent. There were usually
two or three chambers per muffler. There wasn't much backpressure on
this sort of muffler because it was virtually unrestricted. The
product didn't stay in the market place very long and I don't know why?
Does anyone believe in conspiracy theories?

Mr Wizzard

2006-01-22, 2:21 pm

"Buy_Sell" <werkspace@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137659911.057363.25990@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> The
> product didn't stay in the market place very long and I don't know why?

Supply. and demand. Period.

> Does anyone believe in conspiracy theories?
>
No, no, no... Ca-mon now... "Conspiracy" ?,
"muffler"?, huh, yer killing me here. "More noise"
in stuff is not an alternative that would present
someone with a marketing advantage or something.
Hell, its the other way araound! - The "louder" the
muffler, the more desirable it is now days. Take
them coffee-can mufflers that todays young kids
ae putting on these 4-banger, rice burner Jap cars.
Someone oughta take them coffee-can mufflers
for them 4-banger rice burners and either outlaw
them, or impose a HUGE tax surchage, or make
them a permitted thing - $100/month to run one.

I grew up in the 70's, and believe you me, did
all the hot-rod stuff, but with a twist - I was the
odd one out who believed in "quiet" power.
Used to build "sleepers" - GM, Buick Stage I's,
Mopars etc with large down pipes, but with
"large" quiet mufflers. One Chevy that I did
actually had 4 Cadillac mufflers. Quiet as can
be! Be sitting at a red light sounding like the
family Sunday car. Light turned green, and , ah,
"sounded like the family Sunday car". Couldn't
see the other punk-butt off the line, but I'd still
be able to hear him. Anyways, quiet was neat.

But see, loud mufflers make people "feel"
powerfull. The louder the muffler (on a car),
the bigger the go-nads feel to the driver/owner.
Could have a 0.75 L rice burner, or a 1.02 L
V-6, didn't matter, but if you had a metal garbage
can for a muffler, and you could hear it in the
next township, suddenly you were a dragster.

But I have to believe that if one can make
a super quiet muffler for these generators
(like Honda has now), and able to make
them at a reasonable cost, and made them
in a "retrofit" type package, you'd get rich.

Solar Flare

2006-01-22, 4:21 pm

LOL...been there...done that one.

Except for one thing. When those "rice burners" came
along they were embarrassing the monster engine cars
with performance in street drags and the government had
to start taxing them higher to avoid further
embarrasment.

The only problem with those little "rice burners" was
that they couldn't destroy their tires in one
screaming, paevment marking session. Cheap crap....LOL

"Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote in message
news:-YOdnScAcr6PX07eRVn-hg@comcast.com...
>
> "Buy_Sell" <werkspace@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
news:1137659911.057363.25990@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
and I don't know why?[color=darkred]
>
> Supply. and demand. Period.
>
> No, no, no... Ca-mon now... "Conspiracy" ?,
> "muffler"?, huh, yer killing me here. "More noise"
> in stuff is not an alternative that would present
> someone with a marketing advantage or something.
> Hell, its the other way araound! - The "louder" the
> muffler, the more desirable it is now days. Take
> them coffee-can mufflers that todays young kids
> ae putting on these 4-banger, rice burner Jap cars.
> Someone oughta take them coffee-can mufflers
> for them 4-banger rice burners and either outlaw
> them, or impose a HUGE tax surchage, or make
> them a permitted thing - $100/month to run one.
>
> I grew up in the 70's, and believe you me, did
> all the hot-rod stuff, but with a twist - I was the
> odd one out who believed in "quiet" power.
> Used to build "sleepers" - GM, Buick Stage I's,
> Mopars etc with large down pipes, but with
> "large" quiet mufflers. One Chevy that I did
> actually had 4 Cadillac mufflers. Quiet as can
> be! Be sitting at a red light sounding like the
> family Sunday car. Light turned green, and , ah,
> "sounded like the family Sunday car". Couldn't
> see the other punk-butt off the line, but I'd still
> be able to hear him. Anyways, quiet was neat.
>
> But see, loud mufflers make people "feel"
> powerfull. The louder the muffler (on a car),
> the bigger the go-nads feel to the driver/owner.
> Could have a 0.75 L rice burner, or a 1.02 L
> V-6, didn't matter, but if you had a metal garbage
> can for a muffler, and you could hear it in the
> next township, suddenly you were a dragster.
>
> But I have to believe that if one can make
> a super quiet muffler for these generators
> (like Honda has now), and able to make
> them at a reasonable cost, and made them
> in a "retrofit" type package, you'd get rich.
>
>
>

Daniel Armstrong

2006-01-28, 3:21 am

The muffler you are talking about are typical Flowmaster design.

http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/p...uffler_icon.gif

"Solar Flare" <sfl@hutmail.notvalid> wrote in message
news:kuadnQM-aPheQk7eRVn-hA@golden.net...
> LOL...been there...done that one.
>
> Except for one thing. When those "rice burners" came
> along they were embarrassing the monster engine cars
> with performance in street drags and the government had
> to start taxing them higher to avoid further
> embarrasment.
>
> The only problem with those little "rice burners" was
> that they couldn't destroy their tires in one
> screaming, paevment marking session. Cheap crap....LOL
>
>
> "Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote in message
> news:-YOdnScAcr6PX07eRVn-hg@comcast.com...
> news:1137659911.057363.25990@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> and I don't know why?
>
>

Buy_Sell

2006-01-28, 4:21 am

I can see the similarities but the design is not the same.

It had diamond shaped chambers inside.

At the inlet, the exhaust gas was divided by a V-shaped piece of metal.

Once inside the diamond shaped chamber, the two exhaust flows would
meet up again. The diamond shaped chamber would allow the two sounds
to cancel each other out. Each chamber would reduce the sound by as
much as 70 percent.
There were usually two or three chambers per muffler.
There wasn't much backpressure on this sort of muffler because it was
virtually unrestricted.
----------------------------------------------------
Daniel Armstrong Jan 27, 11:15 pm

The muffler you are talking about are typical Flowmaster design.
http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/p...uffler_icon.gif

LinkBot