Alternative Power sources - Informal Survey

Author

Informal Survey

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-22, 1:21 am

We live off-grid in an area where most are on the grid.

When people ask us why we are off the grid, I tell them that Bangor Hydro
wanted $40,000+ to hook up to the grid. So we decided to spend the money
on our off-grid system instead. We don't have any electric bills, or power
outages, etc.

Almost invariably, the next question is, "Do you sell electricity back to
Bangor Hydro?"

Duh!

Is this sort of question commonly posed to other off-gridders?

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Solar Flare

2006-01-22, 2:21 am

That is the latest fad phrase and the dumb ones ask it.

I am sure we ask dumb questions to mechanics about our
cars too.

"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in
message
news:ru36t1laj3stqab524e2dvc95gkau3us8v@4ax.com...
> We live off-grid in an area where most are on the
grid.
>
> When people ask us why we are off the grid, I tell
them that Bangor Hydro
> wanted $40,000+ to hook up to the grid. So we
decided to spend the money
> on our off-grid system instead. We don't have any
electric bills, or power
> outages, etc.
>
> Almost invariably, the next question is, "Do you sell
electricity back to
> Bangor Hydro?"
>
> Duh!
>
> Is this sort of question commonly posed to other
off-gridders?
>
>
> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Bughunter

2006-01-22, 6:21 am

The one that I always get is ":Do you think you will every get electricity
way out here?"

I always answer with, "Do you mean electric poles, because I already have
electricity?".

"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:ru36t1laj3stqab524e2dvc95gkau3us8v@4ax.com...
> We live off-grid in an area where most are on the grid.
>
> When people ask us why we are off the grid, I tell them that Bangor Hydro
> wanted $40,000+ to hook up to the grid. So we decided to spend the money
> on our off-grid system instead. We don't have any electric bills, or power
> outages, etc.
>
> Almost invariably, the next question is, "Do you sell electricity back to
> Bangor Hydro?"
>
> Duh!
>
> Is this sort of question commonly posed to other off-gridders?
>
>
> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-22, 9:21 am

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:04:17 GMT, "Bughunter" <nobody@home.net> wrote:

>The one that I always get is ":Do you think you will every get electricity
>way out here?"
>
>I always answer with, "Do you mean electric poles, because I already have
>electricity?".
>

That's about on the same order.
-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Solar Flare

2006-01-22, 11:21 am

If you are "off-the-grid" do you really have an
address?

LOL

"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in
message
news:esv6t1p84oc7alhgc4nqekj49jvif6ol1g@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:04:17 GMT, "Bughunter"
<nobody@home.net> wrote:
>
every get electricity[color=darkred]
because I already have[color=darkred]
>
> That's about on the same order.
> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

wmbjk

2006-01-22, 11:21 am

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 23:59:15 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld
<ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:

>We live off-grid in an area where most are on the grid.
>
>When people ask us why we are off the grid, I tell them that Bangor Hydro
>wanted $40,000+ to hook up to the grid. So we decided to spend the money
>on our off-grid system instead. We don't have any electric bills, or power
>outages, etc.
>
>Almost invariably, the next question is, "Do you sell electricity back to
>Bangor Hydro?"
>
>Duh!
>
>Is this sort of question commonly posed to other off-gridders?
>
>
>-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

You bet. I once gave a detailed tour of our power setup to someone who
should have been able to easily follow along. Yet when we adjourned to
the living room he asked where we'd been able to buy a 24V TV. A few
have asked why we didn't pave 6 miles of road or install 4 miles of
fence. The most common question we get though has little to do with
power. It's simply "why?". Apparently some city folk can't imagine any
advantage of living outside a built-up area even though most have
their share of complaints about traffic, noise, smog, annoying
neighbors, etc. I'm also surprised at the fear some exhibit - fear of
wild animals (especially snakes), of bulls and cow flaps, and of being
vulnerable generally to "attack". Quite a contrast to our own fears -
of heavy equipment broke down and blocking the road, or of developers
bringing their "improvements" ever closer. In fairness to visitors
though, they're sometimes a bit shell-shocked by the time they get
here. Twenty minutes of dirt roads with almost no street signs <gasp>
seems to weird them out before we can even get to talking about all
the other stuff. ;-)

Wayne

Pop

2006-01-22, 12:21 pm

"Solar Flare" <sfl@hutmail.notvalid> wrote in message
news:SfWdnQHG9595h07eRVn-iA@golden.net...
: That is the latest fad phrase and the dumb ones ask it.
:
: I am sure we ask dumb questions to mechanics about our
: cars too.

Actually, the correct word is ignorant, not dumb. Ignorance is a
simple lack of knowledge and not the insult most people think it
is.
I think you'll often find such questions are also actually a
curiousity and interest in coming across someone that can
actually sell electricity back to the grid, as most everyone has
heard of, but never actually come across.

Pop

:
: "Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in
: message
: news:ru36t1laj3stqab524e2dvc95gkau3us8v@4ax.com...
: > We live off-grid in an area where most are on the
: grid.
: >
: > When people ask us why we are off the grid, I tell
: them that Bangor Hydro
: > wanted $40,000+ to hook up to the grid. So we
: decided to spend the money
: > on our off-grid system instead. We don't have any
: electric bills, or power
: > outages, etc.
: >
: > Almost invariably, the next question is, "Do you sell
: electricity back to
: > Bangor Hydro?"
: >
: > Duh!
: >
: > Is this sort of question commonly posed to other
: off-gridders?
: >
: >
: > -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)
:
:

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-22, 12:21 pm

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:12:16 GMT, wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 23:59:15 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld
><ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>
>You bet. I once gave a detailed tour of our power setup to someone who
>should have been able to easily follow along. Yet when we adjourned to
>the living room he asked where we'd been able to buy a 24V TV. A few
>have asked why we didn't pave 6 miles of road or install 4 miles of
>fence. The most common question we get though has little to do with
>power. It's simply "why?". Apparently some city folk can't imagine any
>advantage of living outside a built-up area even though most have
>their share of complaints about traffic, noise, smog, annoying
>neighbors, etc. I'm also surprised at the fear some exhibit - fear of
>wild animals (especially snakes), of bulls and cow flaps, and of being
>vulnerable generally to "attack". Quite a contrast to our own fears -
>of heavy equipment broke down and blocking the road, or of developers
>bringing their "improvements" ever closer. In fairness to visitors
>though, they're sometimes a bit shell-shocked by the time they get
>here. Twenty minutes of dirt roads with almost no street signs <gasp>
>seems to weird them out before we can even get to talking about all
>the other stuff. ;-)
>
>Wayne

Eastern Washington County is pretty rural, so we don't get those sorts of
questions/fears/etc. I do get the "why" questions though, and basically
respond that it was too expensive to hook up to the grid.

As I wrote, though, the next question has to do with selling power back to
the power company <sigh>

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Bughunter

2006-01-22, 1:21 pm

About two years ago, I was surprised to see street signs on our access road,
which is little more than a well used logging trail. Shortly after, I
received a notice from the town that I had a new street number that should
be posted on my house. I later learned that all this "improvement" was
funded by a tariff added to every residential phone bill. That tariff went
to support 911 service, street and house identification for use in
emergencies. Not a bad idea.

Before that, about all I could identify as an address was "west of the barn
at the old Potter Farm". Old time locals might know where I was talking
about, but nobody else.

"Solar Flare" <sfl@hutmail.notvalid> wrote in message
news:UfadnbQJh4AKBk7enZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@golden.net...
> If you are "off-the-grid" do you really have an
> address?
>
> LOL
>

calistogaone

2006-01-22, 2:21 pm

So what kind of system did you install ?, did it cost more than the
$40,000 and how much power does it give you?.

Do you get a lot of sun in your spot?.

Jim
Bughunter wrote:[color=darkred]
> About two years ago, I was surprised to see street signs on our access road,
> which is little more than a well used logging trail. Shortly after, I
> received a notice from the town that I had a new street number that should
> be posted on my house. I later learned that all this "improvement" was
> funded by a tariff added to every residential phone bill. That tariff went
> to support 911 service, street and house identification for use in
> emergencies. Not a bad idea.
>
> Before that, about all I could identify as an address was "west of the barn
> at the old Potter Farm". Old time locals might know where I was talking
> about, but nobody else.
>
>
> "Solar Flare" <sfl@hutmail.notvalid> wrote in message
> news:UfadnbQJh4AKBk7enZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@golden.net...

SQLit

2006-01-22, 2:21 pm

"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:ru36t1laj3stqab524e2dvc95gkau3us8v@4ax.com...
> We live off-grid in an area where most are on the grid.
>
> When people ask us why we are off the grid, I tell them that Bangor Hydro
> wanted $40,000+ to hook up to the grid. So we decided to spend the money
> on our off-grid system instead. We don't have any electric bills, or power
> outages, etc.
>
> Almost invariably, the next question is, "Do you sell electricity back to
> Bangor Hydro?"
>
> Duh!
>
> Is this sort of question commonly posed to other off-gridders?
>
>
> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

$40k for lines, in my area, last time I asked about it. The utility charges
about $12k a mile for flat land. Usually installed by contractors, when they
get " a round-to-it"

I worked on a resort "boonies Arizona" Had to go over a mesa, 2300 ft.
vertical. More than 50% of the poles were set by helicopter.

Bruce in Alaska

2006-01-22, 5:21 pm

In article <GiOAf.3458$Ez3.1007@trnddc03>,
"Bughunter" <nobody@home.net> wrote:

> About two years ago, I was surprised to see street signs on our access road,
> which is little more than a well used logging trail. Shortly after, I
> received a notice from the town that I had a new street number that should
> be posted on my house. I later learned that all this "improvement" was
> funded by a tariff added to every residential phone bill. That tariff went
> to support 911 service, street and house identification for use in
> emergencies. Not a bad idea.
>
> Before that, about all I could identify as an address was "west of the barn
> at the old Potter Farm". Old time locals might know where I was talking
> about, but nobody else.
>
>
> "Solar Flare" <sfl@hutmail.notvalid> wrote in message
> news:UfadnbQJh4AKBk7enZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@golden.net...
>
>

It is REALLY hard to have a Street Address, if you don't have any
Streets.... Living far out in the alaskan bush, as I do, my Postal
Address is a P.O. Box in the nearest Town's Post Office. (We do have our
own Zipcode) The Post Office then sends out the mail, for all the
neighbors (within 100 square miles) with the local Bush Pilot, once a
week, weather permitting. Then I sort all the neighbors mail into Slots
in the Entryway for the neighbors to pickup, at their convience.
Mail comes on Wed. at about 10:30 Am, and I cook Pizza for lunch, for
those folks that come for their mail.
For UPS, we just trained the UPS Guy to give all our packages to the
right Bush Pilot. FedEx doesn't work out here at all. DHL doesn't
know about alaska... yet.

Bruce in alaska who actually does live, very far out......
--
add a <2> before @

Jim Logajan

2006-01-22, 6:21 pm

Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:
> It is REALLY hard to have a Street Address, if you don't have any
> Streets.... Living far out in the alaskan bush, as I do, my Postal
> Address is a P.O. Box in the nearest Town's Post Office. (We do have
> our own Zipcode) The Post Office then sends out the mail, for all the
> neighbors (within 100 square miles) with the local Bush Pilot, once a
> week, weather permitting. Then I sort all the neighbors mail into
> Slots in the Entryway for the neighbors to pickup, at their convience.
> Mail comes on Wed. at about 10:30 Am, and I cook Pizza for lunch, for
> those folks that come for their mail.
> For UPS, we just trained the UPS Guy to give all our packages to the
> right Bush Pilot. FedEx doesn't work out here at all. DHL doesn't
> know about alaska... yet.
>
> Bruce in alaska who actually does live, very far out......

Well it seems you have internet access - using satellite or do you actually
have phone lines strung to your place? Or are your internet packets being
routed by a Cisco brand Bush pilot? ;-)

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-22, 6:21 pm

On 22 Jan 2006 09:41:13 -0800, "calistogaone" <pierij@msn.com> wrote:

>So what kind of system did you install ?, did it cost more than the
>$40,000 and how much power does it give you?.
>
>Do you get a lot of sun in your spot?.
>
>

Initially I installed a Bergey Excel-R on a 100' tower. That supplied (as
designed), about 75% of our power. The remainder came from a Kohler 12kW
propane fueled generator. Since we would have purchased the generator
anyway, I don't count that into the cost.

When the price of propane started to go through the roof, we added about
2kW of PV. That boosted the price up over the $40K, but will pay for
itself in less propane and less wear and tear on the generator.

We use about 600 kWh/month.

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-22, 7:21 pm

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:56:01 -0700, "SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote:

>
>"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
>news:ru36t1laj3stqab524e2dvc95gkau3us8v@4ax.com...
>
>$40k for lines, in my area, last time I asked about it. The utility charges
>about $12k a mile for flat land. Usually installed by contractors, when they
>get " a round-to-it"
>
>I worked on a resort "boonies Arizona" Had to go over a mesa, 2300 ft.
>vertical. More than 50% of the poles were set by helicopter.
>

Here it's more: $5.23/ft for lines on poles. If you want them underground
(which I would have for about 2200 ft), then:

1. I dig a 30" deep trench and line the bottom with sand. In this area
that would mean blasting.

2. I install the proper type of conduit with pull strings and "breaks"
every few hundred feet (I don't recall the distance).

3. They will then come and pull the wire for $6/ft! And I also have to
pay for transformers at each end (about $1200 each IIRC).

4. There's also an "engineering fee" of a bit over $1,000.

And, on top of all that, the power isn't even that reliable. When we lived
in a local town (while building our home), the power would go out for at
least a short period several times a week. In a storm or even high winds,
fugedaboutit.

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Pal

2006-01-22, 8:21 pm

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
> We live off-grid in an area where most are on the grid.
>
> When people ask us why we are off the grid, I tell them that Bangor Hydro
> wanted $40,000+ to hook up to the grid. So we decided to spend the money
> on our off-grid system instead. We don't have any electric bills, or power
> outages, etc.
>
> Almost invariably, the next question is, "Do you sell electricity back to
> Bangor Hydro?"
>
> Duh!
>
> Is this sort of question commonly posed to other off-gridders?
>
>
> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

I'm a bit different. My "Home" is on the grid, but the holiday shack
isn't, even though there are two poles already on my land that carry
power to the few remaining residents of the ghost town just down the road.

However, I also set up an energy co-operative a couple of years back,
and have nearly 2000 households that signed up for whom we negotiated a
discount on grid power.

Quite a sizable number of our members do in fact have hybrid generation
systems installed (mostly pv, but a smattering of wind and wave systems
as well), and do deliberately want to sell their excess to the grid, as
an offset against what they buy back in times when their batteries run
dry. Most of the local retailers offer a 1:1 rebate on kWh's fed to the
grid.

Personally, I think the ratio should be tipped further in the
co-generator's favour, because the actual cost of generating renewable
electricity is still higher (capital equipment costs), and so the value
of "green" energy should be higher. Also, these people are helping the
retailers meet their Govenment mandated green targets, and the retailers
offer green energy back to all their customers at a premium to the
normal price.

So, here in Australia at least, I can understand why people would ask
that question...

Regards,

Pal

Bughunter

2006-01-22, 8:21 pm

My system is quite modest. 400w of PV, a Honda EU3000ie Generator, 16 golf
cart batteries, SW4048 inverter, C40 charge controller, all propane
appliances and a very conservative usage pattern.

The location is reasonably sunny for Northern NH, but I don't live there
for the winter months. I need to run the generator quite frequently (every
couple days) in deep winter when there is less sun, but I'm rarely there in
winter.

For the warmer 3 seasons, the PV runs probably 90% of my electrical power
needs for lighting, microwave, washing machine, gas dryer, dishwasher, 19"
TV, DVD player, 3 ceiling fans, and a submersible shallow well pump. I need
an occasional charging run from an EU3000ie generator to supplement the PV,
but last spring/summer/fall I used maybe 12 gallons of gasoline in the
generator. For large power tools, like a table saw, I fire up a 5kw propane
generator, typically for only a few minutes at a time. The 8cu ft Consul
refrigerator used something like $20 in propane, and maybe another $20 for
cooking. I just started using the propane hot water heater and don;t know
how much it uses yet, but it will be my biggest user of fuel until I install
a furnace.

I acquired the PV panels next to nothing, unused, unframed prototypes, from
a retired employee of Mobil Solar( for $85/600w). I reduced costs
considerably by designing and installing the system myself, including making
frames for the panels, battery box, remote starters, and buying a factory
refurbished inverter.

I probably have about $8k total invested in including two generators.

I never bothered to ask how much it would cost to run power poles for the ~4
miles. Being at the end of the line, they could have never kept it
operational if above ground.. The government looked at running a service
line across 3 miles on the lake bottom and were quoted something like $800k.
Even if they did run a line, I would not tap into it, because I am quite
happy with the way my system works now.

If the propane delivery man told me I had to buy him a new propane delivery
truck before he would
sell me propane, I would have told him to go away.

For me, conservation is the key, and I find that it does not make life any
less comfortable than in my grid connected home.

"calistogaone" <pierij@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1137951673.768857.55690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> So what kind of system did you install ?, did it cost more than the
> $40,000 and how much power does it give you?.
>
> Do you get a lot of sun in your spot?.
>
>
> Jim
> Bughunter wrote:
>

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-22, 10:21 pm

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:13:10 +1030, Pal <"gtsubs at tpg dot com dot au">
wrote:

>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>I'm a bit different. My "Home" is on the grid, but the holiday shack
>isn't, even though there are two poles already on my land that carry
>power to the few remaining residents of the ghost town just down the road.
>
>However, I also set up an energy co-operative a couple of years back,
>and have nearly 2000 households that signed up for whom we negotiated a
>discount on grid power.
>
>Quite a sizable number of our members do in fact have hybrid generation
>systems installed (mostly pv, but a smattering of wind and wave systems
>as well), and do deliberately want to sell their excess to the grid, as
>an offset against what they buy back in times when their batteries run
>dry. Most of the local retailers offer a 1:1 rebate on kWh's fed to the
>grid.
>
>Personally, I think the ratio should be tipped further in the
>co-generator's favour, because the actual cost of generating renewable
>electricity is still higher (capital equipment costs), and so the value
>of "green" energy should be higher. Also, these people are helping the
>retailers meet their Govenment mandated green targets, and the retailers
>offer green energy back to all their customers at a premium to the
>normal price.
>
>So, here in Australia at least, I can understand why people would ask
>that question...
>
>Regards,
>
>Pal

Would they ask the question after you told them that you did not connect to
the grid because it was too expensive?

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Pal

2006-01-23, 7:21 am

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

>
>
> Would they ask the question after you told them that you did not connect to
> the grid because it was too expensive?
>
>
> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

If they had any logic to deal with the issues, I'm sure they wouldn't.

My point was, that of the 50 - 100 or so households that I know about
who run hybrid systems, the majority are keenly interested in selling
power back to the grid. This does suggest that grid connection cost for
them was not the primary consideration.

And those who are too remote to grid connect, aren't likely to join a
co-operative like mine to get cheeper kWh rates anyway - so my sample is
undoubtedly skewed to the environmentally aware / active rather than the
geographically challenged. This sub-set then is also that with which the
general population is more likely to come into contact (as they are less
isolated and more political), and it is therfour, their concerns for
selling back, that the masses are most likely to be aware of...

Could this not account for the questions of the uninitiated?

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-23, 10:21 am

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:44:54 +1030, Pal <"gtsubs at tpg dot com dot au">
wrote:

>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>
>If they had any logic to deal with the issues, I'm sure they wouldn't.
>
>My point was, that of the 50 - 100 or so households that I know about
>who run hybrid systems, the majority are keenly interested in selling
>power back to the grid. This does suggest that grid connection cost for
>them was not the primary consideration.
>
>And those who are too remote to grid connect, aren't likely to join a
>co-operative like mine to get cheeper kWh rates anyway - so my sample is
>undoubtedly skewed to the environmentally aware / active rather than the
>geographically challenged. This sub-set then is also that with which the
>general population is more likely to come into contact (as they are less
> isolated and more political), and it is therfour, their concerns for
>selling back, that the masses are most likely to be aware of...
>
>Could this not account for the questions of the uninitiated?

It's an excuse since people I speak with are 99.99% grid-connected.

However, as my wife is fond of pointing out, most people do NOT LISTEN to
what you are saying. And this is surely an example of that. (She does
have more egregious examples, though).

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Derek Broughton

2006-01-23, 10:21 am

Derek Broughton

2006-01-23, 10:21 am

Pop wrote:

>
> "Solar Flare" <sfl@hutmail.notvalid> wrote in message
> news:SfWdnQHG9595h07eRVn-iA@golden.net...
> : That is the latest fad phrase and the dumb ones ask it.
> :
> : I am sure we ask dumb questions to mechanics about our
> : cars too.
>
> Actually, the correct word is ignorant, not dumb. Ignorance is a
> simple lack of knowledge and not the insult most people think it
> is.

No, ignorance would be not understanding what "off-grid" means. When
somebody tells you they didn't hook up to grid-power because of the cost,
but you then ask them if they sell their home-generated power back tot he
grid, that's plain dumb!
--
derek

Derek Broughton

2006-01-23, 10:21 am

Bughunter wrote:

> About two years ago, I was surprised to see street signs on our access
> road, which is little more than a well used logging trail. Shortly after,
> I received a notice from the town that I had a new street number that
> should be posted on my house. I later learned that all this "improvement"
> was funded by a tariff added to every residential phone bill. That tariff
> went to support 911 service, street and house identification for use in
> emergencies. Not a bad idea.
>
> Before that, about all I could identify as an address was "west of the
> barn at the old Potter Farm". Old time locals might know where I was
> talking about, but nobody else.

Of course, if you don't have poles, you don't have a landline phone - and
they'll still have trouble finding you (and I'm in the same boat).
--
derek

Bughunter

2006-01-23, 10:21 am

Cellular service works, although you have to be careful to be in the right
spot to get a signal.

"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:rj3fa3-5ja.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
> Bughunter wrote:
>
>
> Of course, if you don't have poles, you don't have a landline phone - and
> they'll still have trouble finding you (and I'm in the same boat).
> --
> derek

meow2222@care2.com

2006-01-23, 11:21 am

Pal wrote:
> Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

[color=darkred]
> If they had any logic to deal with the issues, I'm sure they wouldn't.

> And those who are too remote to grid connect, aren't likely to join a
> co-operative like mine to get cheeper kWh rates anyway - so my sample is
> undoubtedly skewed to the environmentally aware / active rather than the
> geographically challenged. This sub-set then is also that with which the
> general population is more likely to come into contact (as they are less
> isolated and more political), and it is therfour, their concerns for
> selling back, that the masses are most likely to be aware of...
>
> Could this not account for the questions of the uninitiated?

I suspect also a lot of it is simply that its something the average
person hasnt given even a moment's thought. I've asked about the
obvious in shops before, simply because I've never stopped to give a
thought to what to them is perfectly obvious.

Also when you give an overview of a system, it takes time for it to
sink in. Hence the silly questions like 24v tvs and intertie.

And many is the time I've read some instructions but not known
something far more basic than is addressed. A common example might be
'yabbut how do I get to the command prompt' or 'whats this command
prompt you keep talking about.'

Then there's the all time classic recorded on an Apple helpline: 'er,
what does an E look like?'

Also some folk have very little conceptual framework with electricity.
Ask them how power arrives at the sockets and some really dont know.
They dont see wires entering the house anwyhere... mystery.

I guess there are many factors. I'm on grid, but was off grid once, and
got very basic questions. People couldnt understand how one could
function with no mains services. Cooking, heating, lighting, washing,
drainage, all are simple but they just hadnt thought about it, and knew
no more than the town way to do it.

NT

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-23, 12:21 pm

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:48:22 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:

>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>
>That's an Emera company, isn't it? Same company that owns our local utility
>(NS Power).

Yes, Emera purchased them in 2001

[color=darkred]
>
>Nobody's ever asked me that one :-)

Maybe folk listen to what you say, in your area.

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Derek Broughton

2006-01-23, 12:21 pm

Bughunter wrote:

> Cellular service works, although you have to be careful to be in the right
> spot to get a signal.

Yeah, I have the same situation - but my point was that (even though we pay
a 911 surtax on cell service) they can't actually locate my phone
automatically when I call (even the technology that _can_ do that can't do
it if you can't be triangulated from multiple cell-towers). So getting a
street address is fine if somebody conscious can dial 911 and tell them the
address, but the emergency services still can't find you if, with your last
gasp, you punch the emergency number on your phone.
--
derek

Bruce in Alaska

2006-01-23, 4:21 pm

In article <Xns9753893C1AA48JamesLLugojcom@216.168.3.30>,
Jim Logajan <JamesL@Lugoj.com> wrote:

> Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:

snipped cause I don't need to read my own stuff......

>
> Well it seems you have internet access - using satellite or do you actually
> have phone lines strung to your place? Or are your internet packets being
> routed by a Cisco brand Bush pilot? ;-)

Internet comes via a SAT Link, as well as dialup modem for backup. Telco
is via Microwave Radio via Alascom's Hoonah Mtn Site which is on the
Pelcan Spur out of Lena Pt. We have a 16 mile shot over Icy Straights.
(water) I have the only "Real Phone" in my neighborhood. (100 Square
Miles) Others have Cellular coverage, with PowerBoosters and High Gain
Antennas, which also comes off the Alascom Site at Hoonah Mtn. Our Cells
Sites are at 2000+ Elevation and cover roughly 500 Square Miles.
Very BIG Cells, for the cellular world.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @

Jim Baber

2006-01-23, 5:21 pm

Pal wrote:

> Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>
>
> If they had any logic to deal with the issues, I'm sure they wouldn't.
>
> My point was, that of the 50 - 100 or so households that I know about
> who run hybrid systems, the majority are keenly interested in selling
> power back to the grid. This does suggest that grid connection cost
> for them was not the primary consideration.

Jim Baber writes:
I agree, that's where I'm coming from, in a slightly modified
aspect. We are served by Pacific Gas and Electric Corp. It has
electric rates as high as any I've heard of with the summer peak hour
rates in excess of $0.49 / kWh and the winter peak hour rates are $0.31
/ kWh for 5th tier surcharge power. I do admit the winter peak rate is
only a little over $0.29 / kWh and the winter off peak is $0.11 / kWh.

That said, because I was using about 26,000 kWh per year, meant my
annual bill exceeded $5,000, I felt I had to at the least get rid of the
surcharges somehow. My home is large and all electric except for gas
heat (which prevented me from qualifying for the utility's lower all
electric rate structures). My power usage is aggravated by the need to
run an oxygen concentrator (575 W) 24 h a day 7 days a week so I have
something to breath. We also use A/C (8 Tons worth) for about 7-8 months
a year to avoid the hot, very polluted and pollen loaded local air.

In this urban location (Fresno CA) I felt my neighbors would object
to a diesel generator and the local wind conditions won't support using
a wind driven generator, so I needed to go with solar PV. I went ahead
and installed a 10 kW rated system Kyocera panels and SMA Sunny boy
inverters. I've been happy with both and the performance is better than
expected.

This system has generated 44,078 kWh since 6/13/2003 and I still
have had to purchase an additional 6,223 kWh from Pacific Gas and
Electric Corp. as of 1/23 /2006. Most of these purchases were covered by
(paid with) credits my system earned by over production during daylight
hours and I still have an outstanding credit of over $247 that I am
still have left today. I am using this credit now during the winter on
the shorter and foggy days we have here in central California.

I will have paid for the system in Mar. 2009, Based on the current rate
we would have had to pay P G & E for the power I am still using, but
generating myself! And that is calculated including the cost of the
loan to buy the system.

daestrom

2006-01-23, 6:21 pm

"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:7t08t11umtfgqm7r3j9fjn6643soup7t7p@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:56:01 -0700, "SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote:
>
>
> Here it's more: $5.23/ft for lines on poles. If you want them
> underground
> (which I would have for about 2200 ft), then:
>
> 1. I dig a 30" deep trench and line the bottom with sand. In this area
> that would mean blasting.
>
> 2. I install the proper type of conduit with pull strings and "breaks"
> every few hundred feet (I don't recall the distance).
>
> 3. They will then come and pull the wire for $6/ft! And I also have to
> pay for transformers at each end (about $1200 each IIRC).
>
> 4. There's also an "engineering fee" of a bit over $1,000.
>
> And, on top of all that, the power isn't even that reliable. When we
> lived
> in a local town (while building our home), the power would go out for at
> least a short period several times a week. In a storm or even high winds,
> fugedaboutit.
>
>

Hmm....

For buried service here (central NY), they are firm that it is my
cost/responsibility to have the buried service routed to their pole/vault.
I had to pay a licensed contractor to dig/sand/conduit/pull the line, then a
'master electrician' to sign off the inspection and the contractor then
backfilled. Then (and only then), did 'Mother Mohawk' show up and tie the
line into the transformer vault.

They are also quite clear, that if anything ever goes wrong with the buried
line, they will disconnect it from the vault, then *my* contractor must
repair it at my cost, and then I have to have a 'master electrician'
reinspect before they will reconnect.

daestrom

> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Solar Flare

2006-01-23, 9:21 pm

What is really "uninformed" is trying to nail down the
definitions of "ignorant vs. "dumb"...LOL

"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in
message news:4h3fa3-5ja.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
> Pop wrote:
>
message[color=darkred]
ask it.[color=darkred]
about our[color=darkred]
Ignorance is a[color=darkred]
people think it[color=darkred]
>
> No, ignorance would be not understanding what
"off-grid" means. When
> somebody tells you they didn't hook up to grid-power
because of the cost,
> but you then ask them if they sell their
home-generated power back tot he
> grid, that's plain dumb!
> --
> derek

Solar Flare

2006-01-23, 9:21 pm

Is it possible she was really talking about you but you
just didn't listen to her?

Do you dream of being hit with pots and pans and wake
up with goose eggs on your head?

LOL

"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in
message
news:5ll9t1de3noh9p8qhn2ctngoedmqs4dgjp@4ax.com...
> However, as my wife is fond of pointing out, most
people do NOT LISTEN to
> what you are saying. And this is surely an example
of that. (She does
> have more egregious examples, though).
>
>
> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Daniel Armstrong

2006-01-24, 7:21 am

"Jim Baber" <jim@baber.org> wrote in message
news:C6idnT1-a6E_oEjeRVn-pw@comcast.com...
>
>
> Pal wrote:
>
>
> Jim Baber writes:
> I agree, that's where I'm coming from, in a slightly modified
> aspect. We are served by Pacific Gas and Electric Corp. It has
> electric rates as high as any I've heard of with the summer peak hour
> rates in excess of $0.49 / kWh and the winter peak hour rates are $0.31
> / kWh for 5th tier surcharge power. I do admit the winter peak rate is
> only a little over $0.29 / kWh and the winter off peak is $0.11 / kWh.
>
> That said, because I was using about 26,000 kWh per year, meant my
> annual bill exceeded $5,000, I felt I had to at the least get rid of the
> surcharges somehow. My home is large and all electric except for gas
> heat (which prevented me from qualifying for the utility's lower all
> electric rate structures). My power usage is aggravated by the need to
> run an oxygen concentrator (575 W) 24 h a day 7 days a week so I have
> something to breath. We also use A/C (8 Tons worth) for about 7-8 months
> a year to avoid the hot, very polluted and pollen loaded local air.
>
> In this urban location (Fresno CA) I felt my neighbors would object
> to a diesel generator and the local wind conditions won't support using
> a wind driven generator, so I needed to go with solar PV. I went ahead
> and installed a 10 kW rated system Kyocera panels and SMA Sunny boy
> inverters. I've been happy with both and the performance is better than
> expected.
>
> This system has generated 44,078 kWh since 6/13/2003 and I still
> have had to purchase an additional 6,223 kWh from Pacific Gas and
> Electric Corp. as of 1/23 /2006. Most of these purchases were covered by
> (paid with) credits my system earned by over production during daylight
> hours and I still have an outstanding credit of over $247 that I am
> still have left today. I am using this credit now during the winter on
> the shorter and foggy days we have here in central California.
>
> I will have paid for the system in Mar. 2009, Based on the current rate
> we would have had to pay P G & E for the power I am still using, but
> generating myself! And that is calculated including the cost of the
> loan to buy the system.
>

Jim Baber are you aware that your post has your electronic business card
with your name, address, phone number, etc. attached?

Steve Spence

2006-01-24, 11:21 pm

Jim Logajan

2006-01-25, 2:21 am

Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:
> Internet comes via a SAT Link, as well as dialup modem for backup.
> Telco is via Microwave Radio via Alascom's Hoonah Mtn Site which is on
> the Pelcan Spur out of Lena Pt. We have a 16 mile shot over Icy
> Straights. (water) I have the only "Real Phone" in my neighborhood.
> (100 Square Miles) Others have Cellular coverage, with PowerBoosters
> and High Gain Antennas, which also comes off the Alascom Site at
> Hoonah Mtn. Our Cells Sites are at 2000+ Elevation and cover roughly
> 500 Square Miles. Very BIG Cells, for the cellular world.

Tried to figure out where you are, roughly. Other than maybe being
somewhere 50 to 70 miles north of Sitka, not really sure. My wife and I
traveled down the inside passage last year from Skagway to Bellingham and
spent two days in Sitka, so I got a brief view of the general area.
Definitely a wonderful, though seemingly wet, place to live. (We took the
ferry down mid-September after a road trip up via the Alcan six weeks
earlier.)

Thanks for answering my question.

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-25, 7:21 am

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:06:17 -0500, Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org>
wrote:

[color=darkred]

That's one we haven't got. But we don't get many visitors.

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Derek Broughton

2006-01-25, 10:21 am

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:06:17 -0500, Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's one we haven't got. But we don't get many visitors.

I'll see your "where are the power lines" and raise you.

My wife called me at work one day to tell me she'd just found a confused NS
Power meter reader looking for our meter. It hadn't occurred to him that
if there were no power lines...
--
derek

Ron Rosenfeld

2006-01-25, 1:21 pm

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:28:03 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:

>I'll see your "where are the power lines" and raise you.
>
>My wife called me at work one day to tell me she'd just found a confused NS
>Power meter reader looking for our meter. It hadn't occurred to him that
>if there were no power lines...

That's very funny!
-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Bruce in Alaska

2006-01-25, 4:21 pm

In article <Xns9755DABFAE6D4JamesLLugojcom@216.168.3.30>,
Jim Logajan <JamesL@Lugoj.com> wrote:

> Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:
>
> Tried to figure out where you are, roughly. Other than maybe being
> somewhere 50 to 70 miles north of Sitka, not really sure. My wife and I
> traveled down the inside passage last year from Skagway to Bellingham and
> spent two days in Sitka, so I got a brief view of the general area.
> Definitely a wonderful, though seemingly wet, place to live. (We took the
> ferry down mid-September after a road trip up via the Alcan six weeks
> earlier.)
>
> Thanks for answering my question.

I live in Excursion Inlet, Alaska, which sits on the Southeastern
corner of Glacier Bay National Park. Very similar to the scenery
around Sitka, except the Inlet is like a Fjord. mountains on both sides
and water in the middle.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @

Steve Spence

2006-01-25, 9:21 pm

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I'll see your "where are the power lines" and raise you.
>
> My wife called me at work one day to tell me she'd just found a confused NS
> Power meter reader looking for our meter. It hadn't occurred to him that
> if there were no power lines...

This happens here every time National Grid (Niagara Mohawk) hires a new
meter reader. I think the office guys do it on purpose ....

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Derek Broughton

2006-01-26, 11:21 am

Steve Spence wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> This happens here every time National Grid (Niagara Mohawk) hires a new
> meter reader. I think the office guys do it on purpose ....
>
LOL. I hadn't thought of that possibility. Of course, if _I_ was one of
the "office guys" I'd do it :-)
--
derek

Jim Logajan

2006-01-26, 6:21 pm

Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:
> I live in Excursion Inlet, Alaska, which sits on the Southeastern
> corner of Glacier Bay National Park. Very similar to the scenery
> around Sitka, except the Inlet is like a Fjord. mountains on both
> sides and water in the middle.

Ah - that helps narrow your location down - thanks! (Using Google Earth
helped a lot.)

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