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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > November 2006 > GM developing home hydrogen refueling device
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GM developing home hydrogen refueling device
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| lkgeo1 2006-09-25, 9:25 am |
| GM developing home hydrogen refueling device
Publication Date:24-September-2006
08:30 PM US Eastern Timezone
Source:Chris Woodyard-USA Today
General Motors is building a prototype for a home hydrogen refueling
unit in hope of selling fuel-cell cars by 2011. The unit, which would
make hydrogen using either electricity or sunlight, would help sidestep
one of the most vexing problems surrounding the creation of the
pollution-free, alternative-power cars: how to persuade oil companies
to invest in expensive new hydrogen stations that would compete with
their core product, gasoline.
The automaker's goal is an affordable, compact unit that would allow
customers to fill their cars overnight in their own garages, says GM
spokesman Scott Fosgard.
GM would join Honda, which has already created a model for a home
refueling hydrogen unit.
Home refueling makes the possibility of fuel-cell cars "much more
real," especially since building hydrogen fueling stations would be a
"massive undertaking," says Ron Cogan, publisher of the Green Car
Journal.
GM is starting to seriously plan a business case for hydrogen vehicles,
which up to now has been a long-range research project eclipsed by more
market-ready fuel-saving alternatives, such as gas-electric hybrids.
Next year, GM plans to put 100 hydrogen fuel-cell versions of its
Chevrolet Equinox SUV into the hands of consumers - from teachers to
government officials - in Washington, D.C., California and New York.
And Vice Chairman Bob Lutz recently predicted that GM fuel-cell-powered
vehicles could go on sale in as few as five years from now, beating
previous forecasts by a decade.
He said fuel cells could create a new golden age for GM hearkening back
to the 1950s and 1960s.
Fueling is a problem. California, with the most hydrogen filling
stations of any state, has just 23 and another 15 on the drawing
boards. Even GM's oil company partner, Shell, has immediate plans for
only six, two outside New York and four on the drawing board in Los
Angeles.
One big reason: expense. Shell's only existing hydrogen filling
station, in the Washington, D.C., area, cost $2 million.
As for how many it eventually might build, "We haven't hung numbers on
it," says Shell Hydrogen's Tim O'Leary.
GM isn't alone in home refueling. Honda unveiled the third generation
of its home unit last year, created in conjunction with a fuel-cell
company called Plug Power. It produces enough hydrogen from natural gas
to power both a car and a home.
Honda also has a solar-powered refueling station in operation at its
test center in Torrance, Calif. It makes enough hydrogen for 30 miles
of driving a day.
Honda today demonstrated its next-generation hydrogen car in Japan.
Honda says its new FCX, with a smaller, lighter fuel cell, has a range
of more than 270 miles. It's due to arrive in the USA in 2008. Honda
has 15 current-generation FCXs being tested by consumers.
Other automakers have hydrogen programs as well, but aren't as far
along.
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| Eeyore 2006-09-25, 9:25 am |
|
lkgeo1 wrote:
> The unit, which would
> make hydrogen using either electricity or sunlight, would help sidestep
> one of the most vexing problems surrounding the creation of the
> pollution-free, alternative-power cars
Pollution-free my XXX !
Graham
| |
| lkgeo1 2006-09-25, 1:25 pm |
| WHY DO YOU HAVE SUCH A FIXATION WITH ANATOMY GAY BOY?
Eeyore wrote:
> lkgeo1 wrote:
>
>
> Pollution-free my XXX !
>
> Graham
| |
|
|
"lkgeo1" <lkgeo1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1159194744.232023.273870@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> WHY DO YOU HAVE SUCH A FIXATION WITH ANATOMY GAY BOY?
> Eeyore wrote:
sidestep[color=darkred]
>
Again...fuel cells cars are a fools game, you are going to use solar PV or
solar sterling to generate electricity to electrolyze hydrogen from
water....which will then be used in a fuel cell to do what? Generate
electricity to drive electric motors.... you haven't sidestepped anything.
All you have done is complicated the process. The limitation in electric
cars is related to range and ability to recharge them quickly. If you want
more range you have got to either store more energy on board (which can be
done with more or better batteries, hydrogen and fuel cells,
flywheels...etc.). Hydrogen and fuel cells would make refueling quickly
possible, but at a tremendous cost in infrastructure, electricity is
available now almost everywhere from the existing grid. The recharging
solution can be accomodated in other ways as well, battery swapping being my
favorite. You just have to deliver batteries to the places you want as
fueling stations......
As an aside, you can also burn hydrogen as you would gasoline....and then
what would you do with the fuel cell?
| |
| Eeyore 2006-09-25, 5:25 pm |
|
lkgeo1 wrote:
> WHY DO YOU HAVE SUCH A FIXATION WITH ANATOMY
I don't.
> GAY BOY?
I'm not gay.
Whay do you have such a fixation with homosexuality ?
Graham
[color=darkred]
>
> Eeyore wrote:
| |
| Eeyore 2006-09-25, 5:25 pm |
|
beard6801@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Again...fuel cells cars are a fools game, you are going to use solar PV or
> solar sterling to generate electricity to electrolyze hydrogen from
> water....which will then be used in a fuel cell to do what? Generate
> electricity to drive electric motors.... you haven't sidestepped anything.
Indeed.
> All you have done is complicated the process.
Amen to that !
> The limitation in electric
> cars is related to range and ability to recharge them quickly.
Exactly so and for routine journey lengths, the latest battery technology would
seem to fit the bill.
> If you want
> more range you have got to either store more energy on board (which can be
> done with more or better batteries, hydrogen and fuel cells,
> flywheels...etc.). Hydrogen and fuel cells would make refueling quickly
> possible, but at a tremendous cost in infrastructure, electricity is
> available now almost everywhere from the existing grid. The recharging
> solution can be accomodated in other ways as well, battery swapping being my
> favorite. You just have to deliver batteries to the places you want as
> fueling stations......
>
> As an aside, you can also burn hydrogen as you would gasoline....and then
> what would you do with the fuel cell?
Burning hydrogen in an ICE delivers a bare 5% of the usable energy you started
with !
Graham
| |
| lkgeo1 2006-09-25, 5:25 pm |
| Its OK if you are.........http://www.forester.net/de_0507_back.html
Eeyore wrote:[color=darkred]
> lkgeo1 wrote:
>
>
> I don't.
>
>
> I'm not gay.
>
> Whay do you have such a fixation with homosexuality ?
>
> Graham
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2006-09-25, 8:25 pm |
| Because hydrogen is a "bum-wrap"
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45184F0C.7783CFFE@hotmail.com...
>
>
> lkgeo1 wrote:
>
>
> I don't.
>
>
> I'm not gay.
>
> Whay do you have such a fixation with homosexuality ?
>
> Graham
>
>
| |
| empress2454@wowway.com 2006-09-25, 8:25 pm |
| home hydrogen fule systems have been availiable for years, but at high
cost.
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lkgeo1 wrote:
> GM developing home hydrogen refueling device
>
> Publication Date:24-September-2006
> 08:30 PM US Eastern Timezone
> Source:Chris Woodyard-USA Today
> General Motors is building a prototype for a home hydrogen refueling
> unit in hope of selling fuel-cell cars by 2011. The unit, which would
> make hydrogen using either electricity or sunlight, would help sidestep
> one of the most vexing problems surrounding the creation of the
> pollution-free, alternative-power cars: how to persuade oil companies
> to invest in expensive new hydrogen stations that would compete with
> their core product, gasoline.
>
> The automaker's goal is an affordable, compact unit that would allow
> customers to fill their cars overnight in their own garages, says GM
> spokesman Scott Fosgard.
>
> GM would join Honda, which has already created a model for a home
> refueling hydrogen unit.
>
> Home refueling makes the possibility of fuel-cell cars "much more
> real," especially since building hydrogen fueling stations would be a
> "massive undertaking," says Ron Cogan, publisher of the Green Car
> Journal.
>
> GM is starting to seriously plan a business case for hydrogen vehicles,
> which up to now has been a long-range research project eclipsed by more
> market-ready fuel-saving alternatives, such as gas-electric hybrids.
>
> Next year, GM plans to put 100 hydrogen fuel-cell versions of its
> Chevrolet Equinox SUV into the hands of consumers - from teachers to
> government officials - in Washington, D.C., California and New York.
>
> And Vice Chairman Bob Lutz recently predicted that GM fuel-cell-powered
> vehicles could go on sale in as few as five years from now, beating
> previous forecasts by a decade.
>
> He said fuel cells could create a new golden age for GM hearkening back
> to the 1950s and 1960s.
>
> Fueling is a problem. California, with the most hydrogen filling
> stations of any state, has just 23 and another 15 on the drawing
> boards. Even GM's oil company partner, Shell, has immediate plans for
> only six, two outside New York and four on the drawing board in Los
> Angeles.
>
> One big reason: expense. Shell's only existing hydrogen filling
> station, in the Washington, D.C., area, cost $2 million.
>
> As for how many it eventually might build, "We haven't hung numbers on
> it," says Shell Hydrogen's Tim O'Leary.
>
> GM isn't alone in home refueling. Honda unveiled the third generation
> of its home unit last year, created in conjunction with a fuel-cell
> company called Plug Power. It produces enough hydrogen from natural gas
> to power both a car and a home.
>
> Honda also has a solar-powered refueling station in operation at its
> test center in Torrance, Calif. It makes enough hydrogen for 30 miles
> of driving a day.
>
> Honda today demonstrated its next-generation hydrogen car in Japan.
> Honda says its new FCX, with a smaller, lighter fuel cell, has a range
> of more than 270 miles. It's due to arrive in the USA in 2008. Honda
> has 15 current-generation FCXs being tested by consumers.
>
> Other automakers have hydrogen programs as well, but aren't as far
> along.
| |
| Eeyore 2006-09-25, 9:25 pm |
|
lkgeo1 wrote:
> Its OK if you are.........http://www.forester.net/de_0507_back.html
The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is
temporarily unavailable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please try the following:
If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled
correctly.
Open the www.forester.net home page, and then look for links to the information you
want.
Click the Back button to try another link.
HTTP 404 - File not found
You're a stupid troll.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2006-09-25, 9:25 pm |
|
empress2454@wowway.com wrote:
> home hydrogen fule systems have been availiable for years, but at high
> cost.
Because it involves throwing away most of the original energy !
Hydrogen should be *oulawed* ffs ! It's a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY to pursue
it.
Graham
| |
| Jesse Spencer 2006-09-26, 3:26 am |
|
> Again...fuel cells cars are a fools game, you are going to use solar PV or
> solar sterling to generate electricity to electrolyze hydrogen from
> water....which will then be used in a fuel cell to do what?
Making electric from natural gas as Honda proposes makes some sense.
GM is once again behind the 8 ball.
| |
| Jesse Spencer 2006-09-26, 3:26 am |
|
> Because it involves throwing away most of the original energy !
Not if you're using the (waste) heat energy.
| |
| Eeyore 2006-09-26, 9:25 am |
|
Jesse Spencer wrote:
>
> Not if you're using the (waste) heat energy.
Show me an example where that's proposed.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2006-09-26, 9:25 am |
|
Jesse Spencer wrote:
>
> Making electric from natural gas as Honda proposes makes some sense.
> GM is once again behind the 8 ball.
Where does Honda say it's going to make electric <sic> from natural gas ?
Graham
| |
| empress2454@wowway.com 2006-09-26, 9:25 am |
| several auto makes including GM in austrailia have gone to market with
Lp car in the past, they have the infrastructure to refuel LP much more
common then in america, and they get far better range out of a gallon
then we do on our refined gas.
hydrogen does waste energy to convert water to hydrogen, this is true,
but the energy wated is nuclear, not oil. now you are probably going to
comment on the whole nuclear energy thing, but the simple fact is that
the whole point right now is to stop using as many natural resouces as
possible, and right now we waste a tremendous amount of uranium, so we
might as well use it for more nuke plants until my brother finishes his
fusion plant design...oh yeah, he decided to drop being a nuclear
chemist and became a priest...
Eeyore wrote:
> Jesse Spencer wrote:
>
>
> Where does Honda say it's going to make electric <sic> from natural gas ?
>
> Graham
| |
| lkgeo1 2006-09-26, 9:25 am |
| There is a factory in Northern Minnesota which makes the Tickle Me Elmo
toys.
Well, Lena is hired at The Tickle Me Elmo factory and she reports for
her first day promptly at 8:00 AM .
The next day at 8:45 AM there is a knock at the Personnel Manager's
door.
The Foreman throws open the door and begins to rant about the new
employee.
He complains that she is incredibly slow and the whole line is backing
up,
putting the entire production line behind schedule.
The Personnel Manager decides he should see this for himself, so the 2
men
march down to the factory floor.
When they get there the line is so backed up that there are Tickle Me
Elmo's all over the factory floor and they're really beginning to pile
up.
At the end of the line stands Lena surrounded by piles of Tickle Me
Elmo's.
She has a roll of plush red fabric and a huge bag of small marbles.
The 2 men watch in amazement as she cuts a little piece of fabric,
wraps it around two marbles and begins to carefully sew the little
package between Elmo's legs.
The Personnel Manager bursts into laughter. After several minutes of
hysterics he pulls himself together and approaches Lena .
"I'm sorry," he says to her, barely able to keep a straight face, "but
I think you misun- derstood the instructions I gave you yesterday..."
"Your job is to give Elmo two test tickles.
Eeyore wrote:[color=darkred]
> lkgeo1 wrote:
>
>
> I don't.
>
>
> I'm not gay.
>
> Whay do you have such a fixation with homosexuality ?
>
> Graham
>
| |
| Windsun 2006-09-26, 1:25 pm |
| WHAT waste heat energy???
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jesse Spencer" <spencerfdnydelete@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:DQ4Sg.48205$uH6.34872@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
>
> Not if you're using the (waste) heat energy.
| |
| J Y Kelly 2006-11-20, 8:25 pm |
|
<beard6801@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:zfTRg.23172$eW5.22206@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "lkgeo1" <lkgeo1@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1159194744.232023.273870@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> sidestep
>
> Again...fuel cells cars are a fools game, you are going to use solar PV or
> solar sterling to generate electricity to electrolyze hydrogen from
> water....which will then be used in a fuel cell to do what? Generate
> electricity to drive electric motors.... you haven't sidestepped anything.
> All you have done is complicated the process. The limitation in electric
> cars is related to range and ability to recharge them quickly. If you want
> more range you have got to either store more energy on board (which can be
> done with more or better batteries, hydrogen and fuel cells,
> flywheels...etc.). Hydrogen and fuel cells would make refueling quickly
> possible, but at a tremendous cost in infrastructure, electricity is
> available now almost everywhere from the existing grid. The recharging
> solution can be accomodated in other ways as well, battery swapping being
> my
> favorite. You just have to deliver batteries to the places you want as
> fueling stations......
>
> As an aside, you can also burn hydrogen as you would gasoline....and then
> what would you do with the fuel cell?
burning hydrogen at 30% efficiency tops vs 50% fuel cell efficiency? I'll
take the fuel cell.
Making hydrogen from natural gas or electricity from the grid is just and
interim step in the conversion to a hydrogen economy. Hydrogen is just a
carrier of energy. What we will ultimately need is more renewble engergy
sources for the production of hydrogen, this is the true conversion from
fossil fuels.
I don't think GM or Honda are out to too far out to lunch really.
JYK
| |
| Eeyore 2006-11-20, 8:25 pm |
|
empress2454@wowway.com wrote:
> several auto makes including GM in austrailia have gone to market with
> Lp car in the past, they have the infrastructure to refuel LP much more
> common then in america, and they get far better range out of a gallon
> then we do on our refined gas.
>
> hydrogen does waste energy to convert water to hydrogen, this is true,
> but the energy wated is nuclear
You can't determine where the electricity comes from once it's on the grid.
I did some sums once to work out how many nuclear plants would be needed to replace
the USA's gasoline with hydrogen.
It came to 504 1GW nuclear power stations !
Is that even remotely practical ?
Using hydrogen as a fuel is only 25% efficient with fuel cells and ~ 6% directly in
ICEs. The idea is quite insane.
Graham
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