Alternative Power sources - New Home Construction

Author

New Home Construction

Joe

2006-10-24, 3:25 am

I'm in the early stages of building a new home. I am using contractors
so I can be very flexible in the design. At this point, I'm considering
solar arrays, 2x6 framing, and solar water heating. I'm looking for
resources or other pointers regarding energy efficiency of a new home.

thanks,
JA

Eeyore

2006-10-24, 3:25 am

Anthony Matonak

2006-10-24, 9:25 am

Eeyore wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>
>
> How much insulation have you got ?
> There is no such thing as too much.

There is a point of diminishing returns though. Around these parts it's
common to refer to insulation by R value and, this being a southern and
warm climate, it's not often you see much more than R20 or so in the
walls. I would say that somewhere around R80 would be the point where
adding more insulation becomes impractical for my climate.

Regarding energy efficiency in a new home. I'm no expert but I can
repeat some things I've heard about.

For instance, not all insulation is the same. I'm told that sprayed
foam insulation performs better than similar R valued fiberglass
because it seals up all the cracks.

Also, heat recovery ventilators are a good idea in a tight house.

These days you can go one step further and automate a whole house
fan and motorized windows. Add motorized automatic insulating
shutters and your house can do the entire passive solar song and
dance that a person would normally have to do by hand. What most
folks don't learn until too late is that "passive" solar means
you're always adjusting something.

I'm in favor of active solar thermal air heaters as well. In the
summer you can duct them to your clothes drier to save some energy
or to a food dehydrator or something.

While not energy efficiency related, I'm also in favor of a whole
house vacuum, home run all the electrical, add wiring in every
room (heck, every wall) for network, phone, TV, and security stuff.
It's easy to add all kinds of wiring when the walls are open.
Even if you don't use half of it, wire is cheap. Oh, and take
pictures of everything before they cover it all up.

I suppose, this being homepower, that provisions in the design and
wiring for generators, battery banks, solar PV and all that stuff
isn't a bad idea (assuming it's not already in the plans). Even
if you don't plan for any of it yet, having the space set aside
can help in the future.

Anthony

Eeyore

2006-10-24, 9:25 am

Anthony Matonak wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
>
> There is a point of diminishing returns though. Around these parts it's
> common to refer to insulation by R value and, this being a southern and
> warm climate, it's not often you see much more than R20 or so in the
> walls. I would say that somewhere around R80 would be the point where
> adding more insulation becomes impractical for my climate.

That R value is more important to the energy efficient builder though. That's
what it's all about. Saving energy in the first place is far more effective
than spending money to replace it !

Does 2x6 framing mean walls fixed on battens 6" wide ? That sounds thin to me
for decent insulation.

Agreed with rest of stuff so snipped for brevity.

Graham

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-10-24, 9:25 am

Joe <albanese27@gmail.com> wrote:

>I'm in the early stages of building a new home. I am using contractors
>so I can be very flexible in the design. At this point, I'm considering
>solar arrays, 2x6 framing, and solar water heating. I'm looking for
>resources or other pointers regarding energy efficiency of a new home.

You might also consider space heating with a sunspace or "solar siding."

Nick

Eeyore

2006-10-24, 9:25 am

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-10-24, 9:25 am

Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:

I wonder where this home will be. SIPs can insulated better than 2x6 walls,
with less air leakage.
[color=darkred]
>... heat recovery ventilators are a good idea in a tight house.

Sure, but most US houses already leak way too much air, so HRVs save
little energy... 0.2 ACH is considered "airtight" here, but a 3000 ft^2
house with 0.2 ACH leaks 0.2x3000x8/60 = 80 cfm, way more than ASHRAE's
standard 15 cfm per full-time occupant.

>These days you can go one step further and automate a whole house
>fan and motorized windows.

Automatic night ventilation can take the place of AC for all but 2 weeks
per year in Phila. If it senses outdoor humidity, it can also bring in
warm outdoor air to heat a house while avoiding indoor condensation.

>Add motorized automatic insulating shutters and your house can do
>the entire passive solar song and dance that a person would normally
>have to do by hand. What most folks don't learn until too late is
>that "passive" solar means you're always adjusting something.

People quickly tire of moving insulation twice a day, but motorized
shutters seem expensive, with low R-values compared to a house wall.
We can automatically let air flow up through a vent from a sunspace
to heat ceiling mass, then bring heat down with a slow ceiling fan
and a thermostat and an occupancy sensor. Not purely passive, but
very low power. Motorized insulating shutters.

>I'm in favor of active solar thermal air heaters as well.

Sure. Why not cover the whole south wall with transparent siding,
eg clear corrugated Dynaglas polycarbonate greenhouse roofing,
with an air gap and a dark surface behind it?

Nick

tgdenning@earthlink.net

2006-10-24, 9:25 am

Eeyore wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>
>
> Going back to basics, where is this and what is the weather like there ?
>
> Graham

Unless the weather is 72F all year round, insulation and thermal mass
are the critical factors to begin with. If the weather is going to get
variable and extreme as predicted, both heating and cooling are going
to be important.

If you go from 2x6 to 2x8 walls you get about 40% less heat loss or
gain just in the insulation. Make sure your walls are 5/8 gypsum rather
than 1/2, and make sure your foundation is highly insulated from the
outside (and have termite protection if that's a problem in your area).
Have the roof insulation a *minimum* of r-50 total.

None of these choices should add more than trivially to the labor cost,
although your contractors will try to claim that. The difference in
material cost is insignificant relative to the total cost of the house.
In addition to thermal comfort, with good windows, you will have a
wonderfully quiet house.

-tg

daestrom

2006-10-24, 5:25 pm

"Joe" <albanese27@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:R2f%g.741$s6.491@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> I'm in the early stages of building a new home. I am using contractors so
> I can be very flexible in the design. At this point, I'm considering solar
> arrays, 2x6 framing, and solar water heating. I'm looking for resources or
> other pointers regarding energy efficiency of a new home.
>

As others have said, insulation is a good thing. You don't mention where
you're at, so I can't tell if heating or cooling will be the larger energy
usage. Some 'bullet' thoughts.....

1) Beware of 'radiant barrier' insulation. It's often advertised as
performing a lot better than actual, installed performance. About the only
place it would make sense is the underside of attic rafters if you're in a
climate that needs a lot of A/C

2) Think 'air tightness'. Even in 'modern' homes, a large percentage of
heat loss (maybe 50%) is by air exchange with cold outside air, not
conduction through insulated walls. Standard 'vapor barriers' don't do
enough to stop this exfiltration, you have to seal around all the openings
into the attic, all the electrical boxes on exterier walls, between the
foundation and the sill plate (sill sealer, boards aren't always enough).
Outdoor hose bibs, electric service entrance, 'walk through' every
penetration through the vapor barrier (also known as the 'building
envelope') and look for how it's going to be sealed. *IF* indoor air
pollution build up is a concern, think about a small amount of forced
ventilation throught an air/air heat exchanger.

3) If you and your family take a lot of showers, consider the feasibility of
installing a GFX heat-exchanger. Zero maintenance and they can recover a
good percentage of your hot water energy.
http://gfxtechnology.com/

4) If the basement is *ever* going to be considered a living space (maybe
not now, but in the future?), insulate underneath the slab and around the
walls. Much easier to install beforehand than to deal with later.

5) Unless the view is magnificent, stick to simple double-hung windows of
some standard size (in severe climates make them low-e, double-pane).
Unless you're quite sure about the available solar gain. My neighbor spent
a lot of money for some beautiful windows that seemed like a wonderful idea.
Problem is, they are aimed about 30 degrees north of due west (lousy solar
gain except in summer :-( , and simply look into the other neighbors
backyard (and no, there's no bathing beauty by the pool everyday :-) He
loses a lot of heat even though they are low-e double pane, has a view of
the other guys kids on their swing-set, and no significant solar gain.
Dumb, dumb, dumb, all because "it looked good on paper".

6) If you have long/cold winters, consider some form of vestibule for the
entrance. There are mixed thoughts about just how much heat you lose going
in/out, but think it over.

7) Not energy related (except my own personnel energy level), see if you can
get the laundry near the bed/bath rooms. At least on the same floor.
Whoever does the laundry in your household will love you for it.

When I built my house, I considered, "What are things that are easy to do
while in construction, but a pain in the a__ to do later?" Add an extra
course of block to the basement walls so it can be finished off later if
desired (< $400 ). Add wiring and boxes to the center ceiling of a lot of
rooms for ceiling fans (just wallboard over for now, but find them with a
magnet later if you ever want a ceiling fan) (<$100 if you wire them
yourself). Extra wiring in walls for cableTV/ telephone/ network/ intercom/
whatever... (also cheap if you run them yourself while the walls are just
studs) Insulation under slab. When the budget gets 'tight', go for cheap
carpets, cheap cabinets, cheap fixtures in the bathrooms. Those can all be
upgraded later in a couple of years for not much more than the cost of the
upgrade materials. But fishing wires or trying to blow in insulation, or a
6 1/2 ft ceiling in the basement are a lot harder.

daestrom

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-10-24, 5:25 pm

daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:

>1) Beware of 'radiant barrier' insulation. It's often advertised as
>performing a lot better than actual, installed performance.

That's no longer true, given current FTC regs which prohibit advertising
R-values in general but allow advertising measured "system R-values" with
specified barrier orientations and temp diffs and directions of heatflow.

>About the only place it would make sense is the underside of attic rafters
>if you're in a climate that needs a lot of A/C

It could also work well under an unheated basement ceiling.

>2) Think 'air tightness'. Even in 'modern' homes, a large percentage of
>heat loss (maybe 50%) is by air exchange with cold outside air...

You might specify a max 0.2 ACH natural air infiltration, eg 10 ACH with
a blower door test, if the builder agrees, and do some airsealing yourself
with a large exhaust fan in a window and a 0-0.25 "H20 Magnehelic pressure
gauge ($25 on Ebay?) or a $64 Kestrel 1000 wind meter in another window.
As you feel around doors and windows and caulk up the cracks, the indoor-
outdoor pressure difference or air velocity should rise.

Nick

mgkelson@yahoo.com

2006-10-25, 3:25 am

Joe wrote:
> I'm in the early stages of building a new home. I am using contractors
> so I can be very flexible in the design. At this point, I'm considering
> solar arrays, 2x6 framing, and solar water heating. I'm looking for
> resources or other pointers regarding energy efficiency of a new home.
>
> thanks,
> JA

Some miscellaneous tips based on experience:

1. Install a separate circuit breaker box in your garage.
2. Run a gas line to your garage and to your fireplaces (if you have
natural gas).
2. Try to get an electric meter box installed that allows a second
connection for a shed, etc.
3. Use stranded wire for your door bell wiring and use a large
transformer that will support multiple chimes. Solid wire breaks very
easily. Make sure that the transformer is installed next to the access
hole in the ceiling and above the ceiling insulation.
4. Put high-end, low-noise exhaust fans in the bathrooms.
5. Install built-in medicine cabinets in the bathrooms. Make sure that
you don't have to pull electrical plugs out of the sockets in order to
open a cabinet door.
6. Insulate the interior walls of the bathroom for sound, especially if
the bathroom is adjacent to the living room. Insulate other selected
walls. If the kitchen refrigerator and a bedroom share the same wall,
for instance, you don't want to hear the refrigerator going on and off
all night.
7. If you have a basement, don't let the heating and air conditioning
guys use tees in the heating duct. Make sure they use separate ducts.
Sound will be transmitted directly from upstairs bedrooms to downstairs
bedrooms if they do.
8. Consider doing at least some basic soundproofing in your
entertainment/TV room so that you can turn your stereo up without
disturbing the neighbors.
9. If you have a basement consider having the builders do the framing,
wiring, and dry-wall hanging. You can add the carpet and bathroom
cabinets and fixtures later if you want.
10. If you have outside stairs or a deck, make sure the the builders
use the proper lumber and fasteners for weather resistance. Consider
having it covered with a roof. Make sure they use treated lumber for
any wood touching the ground.

Vaughn Simon

2006-10-25, 9:25 am

<mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1161751635.364420.187530@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Joe wrote:

....lots of good things!

Since you have no idea what type of low voltage wiring your house will need
over the next 50 years (since some likely haven't been invented yet.) I suggest
that you don't economize on conduit. Put all low voltage wiring in Condit stubs
so that it can be easily replaced. While the walls are still open add a few
strategic empty conduit stubs leading to unused electrical boxes for future use.
They cost peanuts and you will be happy that you took the time.

Joe

2006-10-25, 9:25 am

I guess I should have mentioned that I live in the Cleveland area. Cold
winters and hot humid summers.

Eeyore wrote:
>
> Joe wrote:
>
>
> Going back to basics, where is this and what is the weather like there ?
>
> Graham
>

tgdenning@earthlink.net

2006-10-25, 1:25 pm

daestrom wrote:
> "Joe" <albanese27@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:R2f%g.741$s6.491@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>
> As others have said, insulation is a good thing. You don't mention where
> you're at, so I can't tell if heating or cooling will be the larger energy
> usage. Some 'bullet' thoughts.....
>
> 1) Beware of 'radiant barrier' insulation. It's often advertised as
> performing a lot better than actual, installed performance. About the only
> place it would make sense is the underside of attic rafters if you're in a
> climate that needs a lot of A/C
>
> 2) Think 'air tightness'. Even in 'modern' homes, a large percentage of
> heat loss (maybe 50%) is by air exchange with cold outside air, not
> conduction through insulated walls. Standard 'vapor barriers' don't do
> enough to stop this exfiltration, you have to seal around all the openings
> into the attic, all the electrical boxes on exterier walls, between the
> foundation and the sill plate (sill sealer, boards aren't always enough).
> Outdoor hose bibs, electric service entrance, 'walk through' every
> penetration through the vapor barrier (also known as the 'building
> envelope') and look for how it's going to be sealed. *IF* indoor air
> pollution build up is a concern, think about a small amount of forced
> ventilation throught an air/air heat exchanger.
>
> 3) If you and your family take a lot of showers, consider the feasibility of
> installing a GFX heat-exchanger. Zero maintenance and they can recover a
> good percentage of your hot water energy.
> http://gfxtechnology.com/
>
> 4) If the basement is *ever* going to be considered a living space (maybe
> not now, but in the future?), insulate underneath the slab and around the
> walls. Much easier to install beforehand than to deal with later.
>
> 5) Unless the view is magnificent, stick to simple double-hung windows of
> some standard size (in severe climates make them low-e, double-pane).
> Unless you're quite sure about the available solar gain. My neighbor spent
> a lot of money for some beautiful windows that seemed like a wonderful idea.
> Problem is, they are aimed about 30 degrees north of due west (lousy solar
> gain except in summer :-( , and simply look into the other neighbors
> backyard (and no, there's no bathing beauty by the pool everyday :-) He
> loses a lot of heat even though they are low-e double pane, has a view of
> the other guys kids on their swing-set, and no significant solar gain.
> Dumb, dumb, dumb, all because "it looked good on paper".
>
> 6) If you have long/cold winters, consider some form of vestibule for the
> entrance. There are mixed thoughts about just how much heat you lose going
> in/out, but think it over.
>
> 7) Not energy related (except my own personnel energy level), see if you can
> get the laundry near the bed/bath rooms. At least on the same floor.
> Whoever does the laundry in your household will love you for it.
>
>
> When I built my house, I considered, "What are things that are easy to do
> while in construction, but a pain in the a__ to do later?" Add an extra
> course of block to the basement walls so it can be finished off later if
> desired (< $400 ). Add wiring and boxes to the center ceiling of a lot of
> rooms for ceiling fans (just wallboard over for now, but find them with a
> magnet later if you ever want a ceiling fan) (<$100 if you wire them
> yourself). Extra wiring in walls for cableTV/ telephone/ network/ intercom/
> whatever... (also cheap if you run them yourself while the walls are just
> studs) Insulation under slab. When the budget gets 'tight', go for cheap
> carpets, cheap cabinets, cheap fixtures in the bathrooms. Those can all be
> upgraded later in a couple of years for not much more than the cost of the
> upgrade materials. But fishing wires or trying to blow in insulation, or a
> 6 1/2 ft ceiling in the basement are a lot harder.
>

All good but I will pitch not insulating *under* the basement or slab.
Perimeter insulation as much as possible with horizontal going 2' out
from the wall depending on depth.

If you tie the concrete thermally to the earth, you get this nice
stable temp around 45-50F to work with year round.

-tg

> daestrom

daestrom

2006-10-25, 5:25 pm

<tgdenning@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1161794844.717211.303880@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> daestrom wrote:
>
> All good but I will pitch not insulating *under* the basement or slab.
> Perimeter insulation as much as possible with horizontal going 2' out
> from the wall depending on depth.
>
> If you tie the concrete thermally to the earth, you get this nice
> stable temp around 45-50F to work with year round.
>

That's only good if you *want* the basement to be 45-50 year round. In NY
(similar climate to OP's Ohio), a cold slab in the summer may be nice for
keeping cool, but in the winter it sucks [the heat right out of the basement
living space].

daestrom

Jim Baber

2006-10-25, 5:25 pm

Jim Baber wrote:
I have a question about this comment??
nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

>Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
Where can I find a means to motorize my existing horizontal sliding dual
pane high E windows. These were quite expensive, and although I have
since added dual speed whole house fans,

I do not enjoy having to continue manually opening and closing windows
to effectively use these very effective fans. Particularly, sometimes
this needs to be done when we are elsewhere. Rain storms for an example
could be very damaging if the fans sucked a lot of water in, yet it
would be nice to have the windows open and fans running before we got
home if it was appropriate temperature wise.

I just have not found a means of actuating this kind of sliding window
so any help would be appreciated
[color=darkred]
>
>Automatic night ventilation can take the place of AC for all but 2 weeks
>per year in Phila. If it senses outdoor humidity, it can also bring in
>warm outdoor air to heat a house while avoiding indoor condensation.
>
Here in the San Joaquin valley it can't replace the AC, but it has
reduced my AC use by a very significant amount. I have 7.5 Tons of
12.5 SEER AC and I monitored this year's AC usage extensively (By
tracking inside temperatures) with my weather station.

I found that by manually controlling our whole house fan and window
status I was able to NOT use our AC for an average of 8 hours a night
during our record hot spell (106 consecutive days where the 5 PM
temperature was above 99.8 degrees F.) This is a major power savings
and I was able to keep the nighttime temperatures below 72 for our
sleeping comfort with the exception of 5 days that the best I could do
was 80 F.

I know how to use minimum and differential temperature sensing to
control the fans with a HA system (X10) with rain sensor shutoff
controls, but it is not practical or safe without the window openings
being controlled also.

>
>Sure. Why not cover the whole south wall with transparent siding,
>eg clear corrugated Dynaglas polycarbonate greenhouse roofing,
>with an air gap and a dark surface behind it?
>
>
Wife would never buy that! jim

>Nick
>
>
>

mgkelson@yahoo.com

2006-10-25, 8:25 pm

Vaughn Simon wrote:
> <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1161751635.364420.187530@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> ...lots of good things!
>
> Since you have no idea what type of low voltage wiring your house will need
> over the next 50 years (since some likely haven't been invented yet.) I suggest
> that you don't economize on conduit. Put all low voltage wiring in Condit stubs
> so that it can be easily replaced. While the walls are still open add a few
> strategic empty conduit stubs leading to unused electrical boxes for future use.
> They cost peanuts and you will be happy that you took the time.

I thought about mentioning that, but wasn't sure how much interest a
typical person might have in it. If I built a new house, though, I
would have conduit running all over the place for stereo, speakers, TV,
telephone wire, and computer cables. The nice thing about conduit is
that you have a lot of flexibility for future technology. You would
still have to do a lot of advanced planning, though.

Anthony Matonak

2006-10-26, 3:25 am

Jim Baber wrote:
>
> Where can I find a means to motorize my existing horizontal sliding dual
> pane high E windows. These were quite expensive, and although I have
> since added dual speed whole house fans,

I recall seeing various linear electric drives (motors) for windows
in the past but a quick web search didn't yield anything. Either they
are not made (unlikely) not much in demand (likely) or I just wasn't
using the right words.

At the worst, there are a wide range of linear actuators available
and I would think nearly any of them could be adapted, with a few
extra parts, to work a sliding window. They're used a lot in car
customizations and as door openers.

Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.

Anthony

tgdenning@earthlink.net

2006-10-26, 1:25 pm

daestrom wrote:
> <tgdenning@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1161794844.717211.303880@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> That's only good if you *want* the basement to be 45-50 year round. In NY
> (similar climate to OP's Ohio), a cold slab in the summer may be nice for
> keeping cool, but in the winter it sucks [the heat right out of the basement
> living space].
>

I admit that I worry less about heating than cooling, despite living in
the Northeast.

But it isn't that simple.

Think of the finished basement as a room within a room. The outside
room is at 50F even when the real outside is at 20F. So your
requirement is to insulate and heat the inside room enough to be
comfortable when the 'outside' temp is 50F. What really makes it work
is having radiant heat of some kind.

-tg

John Gilmer

2006-10-27, 1:25 pm

> I thought about mentioning that, but wasn't sure how much interest a
> typical person might have in it. If I built a new house, though, I
> would have conduit running all over the place for stereo, speakers, TV,
> telephone wire, and computer cables. The nice thing about conduit is
> that you have a lot of flexibility for future technology. You would
> still have to do a lot of advanced planning, though.

Unless you intend to use wall paper or wood paneling, I think you are over
doing it running empty conduit all over the place. Definitely pre-wire
what you are nearly CERTAIN you will use shortly after moving in but you
just don't have any idea of what and where you want "stuff" 5 years from
now. Five years from now the conduit is as likely to be in the way as go
to where you need a jack.

A cordless telephone can eliminate the need for telephone jacks all over the
place and can provide "service" outside. It might be a good idea to have a
UPS for the base station and for your computer. If you KNOW what the
power requirements for your computer internet access will be and you suspect
you might have some power outages, you might want to plan for a "heavy duty"
UPS for your favorite things. You would pick a good location for the UPS
and run the power wires to where you want un-interrupted power.

Another thing to consider on NEW construction is at least one power panel
that incorporates a transfer switch. "They" make panels with two
'interlocked' "main" breakers such that only one can be "on" at a time.
Effectively, you have a 100 or 200 amp transfer switch for the cost of a
breaker and a "kit." Don't do this unless you plan to get a generator
soon. But if you do, the "transfer" panel can power up the important stuff
(ice box, water pump, TV, UPS, TV, ...). If you want a first class back
up generator then the wiring for this is more cheaply done when the home is
being built. I'm talking about a system that automatically starts the
generator and the generator is sized to carry the entire load.

Vaughn Simon

2006-10-27, 8:25 pm

"John Gilmer" <gilmer@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:4542236a$0$17204@dingus.crosslink.net...
> Unless you intend to use wall paper or wood paneling, I think you are over
> doing it running empty conduit all over the place.

You don't run it "all over the place". You normally "stub" it. That means that
you put an unused box in the wall and run a condsuit down to barely extend into
the basement/crawl space or up to the attic. Assuming that your labor is free,
you can do this for about $5 per box. At any later time you can use the box
either for low voltage applications, or have it wired for power.

> you just don't have any idea of what and where you want "stuff" 5 years from
> now.

Actually, you do. These things are pretty predictable. You tend to put stuff
in the middle of walls, away from doors. Walk around any house and see where
the 'stuff" is.

>Five years from now the conduit is as likely to be in the way as go
> to where you need a jack.

You have no idea what type of communications cabling we will need 50 years from
now, and I don't either. That is exactly the point. I predict that RF
frequencies will become saturated and fiber will become more and more important
within dwellings for broadband video and other data; but who knows?

Regards
Vaughn

gosolar

2006-11-02, 5:25 pm

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