Alternative Power sources - Night ventilation

Author

Night ventilation

Nick Pine

2006-11-15, 9:25 am

This simulation of automatic night ventilation over an average July day
in Rochester NY with 4 ft^2 of vent area at the top and bottom of a small
2-story house with 1200 pounds of water in 4" PVC pipes under a shiny
ceiling to store overnight winter heat from a sunspace shows the house
can be comfortable with no AC and 20 kWh/day of internal heat gain from
electrical use or unshaded windows, with about 600 cfm of natural airflow
for about 14 hours per day, when it's cooler outdoors. Doubling the vent
area lowers the max indoor temp about 1 F. Doubling thermal mass drops it
4 F. The mass stays well above the average 61 F dewpoint.

There will be a 1000 gallon heat storage tank in the basement for 5 cloudy
days and hot water for showers, heated with 64' of fin-tube pipe in an air
heater inside a sunspace, but we want to keep that hot for DHW in summertime.
As an alternative, one of two stratified tanks in the basement might be cool
in summertime.

20 PI=4*ATN(1)
30 W=2*PI/24'angular freq (radians)
40 C=3200'house thermal mass (Btu/F)
50 G=120'house conductance to outdoors (Btu/h-F)
60 AV=4'vent area (ft^2)
70 HV=16'vent height difference (feet)
80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)
90 DGAIN=3412*ECON/30'internal heat gain (Btu/day)
100 HGAIN=DGAIN/24'internal heat gain (Btu/h)
110 TR=70.2'average July temp in Rochester NY (F)
120 FOR D= 1 TO 10'simulate for 10 average days
130 FOR H=0 TO 23
140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*H)'outdoor temp (F)
150 Q=HGAIN+(T-TR)*G'heatflow from walls into room (Btu)
160 IF T>TR THEN CFM=0:GOTO 190'no venting
170 CFM=16.6*AV*SQR(HV*(TR-T))'vent airflow (cfm)
180 Q=Q-CFM*(TR-T)'lower heat gain by venting
190 TR=TR+Q/C'new house temp (F)
200 IF D=10 AND H MOD 2 = 0 THEN PRINT T,TR,CFM
210 NEXT H
220 NEXT D

hour outdoors indoors cfm

0 70.2 (F) 68.5808 (F) 0
2 75.45 70.7387 0
4 79.29327 73.0518 0
6 80.7 75.34551 0
8 79.29326 77.41766 0
10 75.45 78.69283 449.4819
12 70.2 76.91831 751.8333
14 64.94999 72.89406 843.9746
16 61.10673 68.78081 823.9965
18 59.7 66.10492 727.5638
20 61.10674 65.48225 558.7523
22 64.95001 66.67577 258.8256

When I disabled venting by commenting out line 180 above,
the house got very uncomfortable:

0 70.2 92.42486
2 75.45 92.82798
4 79.29327 93.51543
6 80.7 94.30314
8 79.29326 94.98013
10 75.45 95.36509
12 70.2 95.35495
14 64.94999 94.9525
16 61.10673 94.26566
18 59.7 93.47852
20 61.10674 92.80206
22 64.95001 92.41759

So we might have a 2'x2' vent with a one-way plastic film damper near
the floor that lets cool air flow into the house, with a plywood door
or a 2-watt motorized foamboard damper over that which can be closed
if the house becomes too cool, eg less than 65 F.

Nick

George Ghio

2006-11-15, 5:25 pm

Very impressive. But have you done it? You talk the talk, do you walk
the walk.

This sounds like a weather forecast. Not a great recommendation.

Why don't you build it, then you can show us your theory and the reality
side by side.

I can tell you that it will work but will not match your prediction.

Nick Pine wrote:
> This simulation of automatic night ventilation over an average July day
> in Rochester NY with 4 ft^2 of vent area at the top and bottom of a small
> 2-story house with 1200 pounds of water in 4" PVC pipes under a shiny
> ceiling to store overnight winter heat from a sunspace shows the house
> can be comfortable with no AC and 20 kWh/day of internal heat gain from
> electrical use or unshaded windows, with about 600 cfm of natural airflow
> for about 14 hours per day, when it's cooler outdoors. Doubling the vent
> area lowers the max indoor temp about 1 F. Doubling thermal mass drops it
> 4 F. The mass stays well above the average 61 F dewpoint.
>
> There will be a 1000 gallon heat storage tank in the basement for 5 cloudy
> days and hot water for showers, heated with 64' of fin-tube pipe in an air
> heater inside a sunspace, but we want to keep that hot for DHW in summertime.
> As an alternative, one of two stratified tanks in the basement might be cool
> in summertime.
>
> 20 PI=4*ATN(1)
> 30 W=2*PI/24'angular freq (radians)
> 40 C=3200'house thermal mass (Btu/F)
> 50 G=120'house conductance to outdoors (Btu/h-F)
> 60 AV=4'vent area (ft^2)
> 70 HV=16'vent height difference (feet)
> 80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)
> 90 DGAIN=3412*ECON/30'internal heat gain (Btu/day)
> 100 HGAIN=DGAIN/24'internal heat gain (Btu/h)
> 110 TR=70.2'average July temp in Rochester NY (F)
> 120 FOR D= 1 TO 10'simulate for 10 average days
> 130 FOR H=0 TO 23
> 140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*H)'outdoor temp (F)
> 150 Q=HGAIN+(T-TR)*G'heatflow from walls into room (Btu)
> 160 IF T>TR THEN CFM=0:GOTO 190'no venting
> 170 CFM=16.6*AV*SQR(HV*(TR-T))'vent airflow (cfm)
> 180 Q=Q-CFM*(TR-T)'lower heat gain by venting
> 190 TR=TR+Q/C'new house temp (F)
> 200 IF D=10 AND H MOD 2 = 0 THEN PRINT T,TR,CFM
> 210 NEXT H
> 220 NEXT D
>
> hour outdoors indoors cfm
>
> 0 70.2 (F) 68.5808 (F) 0
> 2 75.45 70.7387 0
> 4 79.29327 73.0518 0
> 6 80.7 75.34551 0
> 8 79.29326 77.41766 0
> 10 75.45 78.69283 449.4819
> 12 70.2 76.91831 751.8333
> 14 64.94999 72.89406 843.9746
> 16 61.10673 68.78081 823.9965
> 18 59.7 66.10492 727.5638
> 20 61.10674 65.48225 558.7523
> 22 64.95001 66.67577 258.8256
>
> When I disabled venting by commenting out line 180 above,
> the house got very uncomfortable:
>
> 0 70.2 92.42486
> 2 75.45 92.82798
> 4 79.29327 93.51543
> 6 80.7 94.30314
> 8 79.29326 94.98013
> 10 75.45 95.36509
> 12 70.2 95.35495
> 14 64.94999 94.9525
> 16 61.10673 94.26566
> 18 59.7 93.47852
> 20 61.10674 92.80206
> 22 64.95001 92.41759
>
> So we might have a 2'x2' vent with a one-way plastic film damper near
> the floor that lets cool air flow into the house, with a plywood door
> or a 2-watt motorized foamboard damper over that which can be closed
> if the house becomes too cool, eg less than 65 F.
>
> Nick
>

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Solar Flare

2006-11-15, 8:25 pm

We had houses like that but the occupants all died from cooking carbon
monoxide build up.

"George Ghio" <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
news:455b8cb2$0$21174$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> Very impressive. But have you done it? You talk the talk, do you
> walk the walk.
>
> This sounds like a weather forecast. Not a great recommendation.
>
> Why don't you build it, then you can show us your theory and the
> reality side by side.
>
> I can tell you that it will work but will not match your prediction.
>
> Nick Pine wrote:
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>

Abby Normal

2006-11-16, 9:25 am

Solar Flare wrote:[color=darkred]
> We had houses like that but the occupants all died from cooking carbon
> monoxide build up.
>
> "George Ghio" <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:455b8cb2$0$21174$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

Lol never argue with Nick when he is deriving PI

Solar Flare

2006-11-16, 5:25 pm

I wasn't

"Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163680017.197805.278250@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
> Lol never argue with Nick when he is deriving PI
>

daestrom

2006-11-19, 1:25 pm

"Nick Pine" <nick@acadia.ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ejer0h$joa@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> This simulation of automatic night ventilation over an average July day
> in Rochester NY with 4 ft^2 of vent area at the top and bottom of a small
> 2-story house with 1200 pounds of water in 4" PVC pipes under a shiny
> ceiling to store overnight winter heat from a sunspace shows the house
> can be comfortable with no AC and 20 kWh/day of internal heat gain from
> electrical use or unshaded windows, with about 600 cfm of natural airflow
> for about 14 hours per day, when it's cooler outdoors. Doubling the vent
> area lowers the max indoor temp about 1 F. Doubling thermal mass drops it
> 4 F. The mass stays well above the average 61 F dewpoint.
>
> There will be a 1000 gallon heat storage tank in the basement for 5 cloudy
> days and hot water for showers, heated with 64' of fin-tube pipe in an air
> heater inside a sunspace, but we want to keep that hot for DHW in
> summertime.
> As an alternative, one of two stratified tanks in the basement might be
> cool
> in summertime.
>
> 20 PI=4*ATN(1)
> 30 W=2*PI/24'angular freq (radians)
> 40 C=3200'house thermal mass (Btu/F)
> 50 G=120'house conductance to outdoors (Btu/h-F)
> 60 AV=4'vent area (ft^2)
> 70 HV=16'vent height difference (feet)
> 80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)
> 90 DGAIN=3412*ECON/30'internal heat gain (Btu/day)
> 100 HGAIN=DGAIN/24'internal heat gain (Btu/h)
> 110 TR=70.2'average July temp in Rochester NY (F)
> 120 FOR D= 1 TO 10'simulate for 10 average days
> 130 FOR H=0 TO 23
> 140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*H)'outdoor temp (F)
> 150 Q=HGAIN+(T-TR)*G'heatflow from walls into room (Btu)
> 160 IF T>TR THEN CFM=0:GOTO 190'no venting
> 170 CFM=16.6*AV*SQR(HV*(TR-T))'vent airflow (cfm)
> 180 Q=Q-CFM*(TR-T)'lower heat gain by venting
> 190 TR=TR+Q/C'new house temp (F)
> 200 IF D=10 AND H MOD 2 = 0 THEN PRINT T,TR,CFM
> 210 NEXT H
> 220 NEXT D
>
> hour outdoors indoors cfm
>
> 0 70.2 (F) 68.5808 (F) 0
> 2 75.45 70.7387 0
> 4 79.29327 73.0518 0
> 6 80.7 75.34551 0
> 8 79.29326 77.41766 0
> 10 75.45 78.69283 449.4819
> 12 70.2 76.91831 751.8333
> 14 64.94999 72.89406 843.9746
> 16 61.10673 68.78081 823.9965
> 18 59.7 66.10492 727.5638
> 20 61.10674 65.48225 558.7523
> 22 64.95001 66.67577 258.8256
>
> When I disabled venting by commenting out line 180 above,
> the house got very uncomfortable:
>
> 0 70.2 92.42486
> 2 75.45 92.82798
> 4 79.29327 93.51543
> 6 80.7 94.30314
> 8 79.29326 94.98013
> 10 75.45 95.36509
> 12 70.2 95.35495
> 14 64.94999 94.9525
> 16 61.10673 94.26566
> 18 59.7 93.47852
> 20 61.10674 92.80206
> 22 64.95001 92.41759
>
> So we might have a 2'x2' vent with a one-way plastic film damper near
> the floor that lets cool air flow into the house, with a plywood door
> or a 2-watt motorized foamboard damper over that which can be closed
> if the house becomes too cool, eg less than 65 F.
>

Nick, like many of your 'calculations', you use simple averages and assume a
lot.

Rochestor is very near Oswego (where I live). While the statistical
*average* temperature swing may be what you've assumed, it is far from
common. Temperatures during the day often reach into the mid-90's in
July/August. A two-week long 'heat wave' that gets into the 90's every day
and stays above the 70's at night is very typical each summer. When
considering buying A/C, I wrestled with this. The 'averages' say it
shouldn't ever be very uncomfortable, yet the truth is different than the
'averages'. Sure, some years the daily highs are rather modest and only get
up to the mid 80's, but other years are 'killer' heat waves into the high
90's.

daestrom

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-19, 1:25 pm

daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:

>... the truth is different than the 'averages'

Sure. This house should have a window AC or a stratified tank
for non-average July days.

Nick

Solar Flare

2006-11-19, 9:25 pm

Daestrom talks about a typical summer here. This has happened from
June 12 to October 1 one year. You ain't gonna' keep the cool that
long.

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ejqacs$nea@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sure. This house should have a window AC or a stratified tank
> for non-average July days.
>
> Nick
>

daestrom

2006-11-21, 5:25 pm

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ejqacs$nea@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sure. This house should have a window AC or a stratified tank
> for non-average July days.
>

With weather around here, two weeks out of the year you have 'uncomfortably
hot' weather. Often we just *manually* ventilate (i.e. open a window). Has
lots of other benefits too. Manually shutting the windows in the morning,
avoid large heat-generating activities (oven, dryer) and it can stay
comfortable till afternoon. In all but the 'heat wave' fluctuations, no
special equipment needed. Opening five 'double-hung' windows on first
floor, and five more on the second floor. More flow than your setup, and
able to capitialize on the prevailing breeze.

BTW, your time-of-day temperature in line 140 seems a bit odd. It reaches
maximum at hour 6 and minimum at hour 18. You might try...

140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*(H+8))'outdoor temp (F)

instead so that peak temperature at least occurs in the afternoon (when I
look at my local recorded temperature, the air temperature peaks between
1400 and 1500 most summer days, and minimum around 0400, barring any weather
front moving into the area).

Nor do I see any solar-gain. This seems like a major oversight.

BTW, we (and Rochester) enjoy a significant tempering effect from the large
body of water on our shore. Here in Oswego, we are routinely several
degrees (up to 10F) cooler than Syracuse (50 miles inland, nearest NWS
station). Of course, the same body of water has some other side-effects at
other times of the year (e.g. can you spell 'lake-effect snow band'??).
Staying comfortable in the summer is no serious feat in this climate. Try
Albany NY or Detroit MI (about the same latitude). Without a tempering body
of water, their extremes are much more severe.

daestrom

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-21, 5:25 pm

daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:

>... Nor do I see any solar-gain. This seems like a major oversight.

Yeah. You missed it :-)

Nick

Abby Normal

2006-11-21, 5:25 pm

daestrom wrote:
> <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
> news:ejqacs$nea@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
> With weather around here, two weeks out of the year you have 'uncomfortably
> hot' weather. Often we just *manually* ventilate (i.e. open a window). Has
> lots of other benefits too. Manually shutting the windows in the morning,
> avoid large heat-generating activities (oven, dryer) and it can stay
> comfortable till afternoon. In all but the 'heat wave' fluctuations, no
> special equipment needed. Opening five 'double-hung' windows on first
> floor, and five more on the second floor. More flow than your setup, and
> able to capitialize on the prevailing breeze.
>
> BTW, your time-of-day temperature in line 140 seems a bit odd. It reaches
> maximum at hour 6 and minimum at hour 18. You might try...
>
> 140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*(H+8))'outdoor temp (F)
>
> instead so that peak temperature at least occurs in the afternoon (when I
> look at my local recorded temperature, the air temperature peaks between
> 1400 and 1500 most summer days, and minimum around 0400, barring any weather
> front moving into the area).
>
> Nor do I see any solar-gain. This seems like a major oversight.
>
> BTW, we (and Rochester) enjoy a significant tempering effect from the large
> body of water on our shore. Here in Oswego, we are routinely several
> degrees (up to 10F) cooler than Syracuse (50 miles inland, nearest NWS
> station). Of course, the same body of water has some other side-effects at
> other times of the year (e.g. can you spell 'lake-effect snow band'??).
> Staying comfortable in the summer is no serious feat in this climate. Try
> Albany NY or Detroit MI (about the same latitude). Without a tempering body
> of water, their extremes are much more severe.
>
> daestrom

He always seems to neglect solar gains, works on a "Conductance" based
on temperature differential only, and of course average temperatures.
May work when it is 'average cold' over night in heating system but
flops on cooling every time.

Abby Normal

2006-11-21, 5:25 pm

Except in heating he always counts on the sun in his schemes but
neglect the sun in coolng.

Abby Normal

2006-11-21, 5:25 pm

Except in heating he always counts on the sun in his schemes but
neglect the sun in coolng.

Derek Broughton

2006-11-22, 9:25 am

Abby Normal wrote:

> Except in heating he always counts on the sun in his schemes but
> neglect the sun in coolng.

"He?" Please learn how to post. This makes no sense.

<plonk>
--
derek

Abby Normal

2006-11-22, 1:25 pm

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Abby Normal wrote:
>
>
> "He?" Please learn how to post. This makes no sense.
>
> <plonk>
> --
> derek

I know how to post, but the problem is most likely "He" meaning Nick
Pine cross posts all the time. I only ever see the thread with him as
the original poster even though it ,may have originated else where, and
if you follow up the text.

So if it is still not clear who he is , just 'go up the ladder' and
look for the guy who uses GW BASIC and derives PI all the time.

Solar Flare

2006-11-23, 3:25 am

I have wirnesses derek do this post master thing to about 12 people in
the last two years. This is as far as his technology goes sometimes.
Forgive him, he is of Brit decent. He thins it shows intelligence.

"Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164215210.896877.172490@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> I know how to post, but the problem is most likely "He" meaning Nick
> Pine cross posts all the time. I only ever see the thread with him
> as
> the original poster even though it ,may have originated else where,
> and
> if you follow up the text.
>
> So if it is still not clear who he is , just 'go up the ladder' and
> look for the guy who uses GW BASIC and derives PI all the time.
>

daestrom

2006-11-23, 9:25 am

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ejvroo$ove@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Yeah. You missed it :-)
>

LIAR! Or is the little smiley supposed to mean it's okay for you to make
mistakes and claim it's my fault?

I didn't miss it, you didn't put it in. All you have is an overall
'conductance' between outside temperature and house temperature. There's a
difference between admitting that you left something out, and claiming that
I overlooked it. Identify the line of code that considers solar input in
your original listing. Or admit that you omitted it. Don't go around
implying that others are too ignorant to understand you when it is your
error.

Another point; you've averaged the electrical heat gain over 24 hours.
Totally unrealistic for most folks. This error causes your model to
underpredict the daily high indoor temperature, while overpredicting the
daily low. Why not weight the electrical heat gain a bit differently to be
more realistic, say 1/2 the daily usage from 1400 to 2200 and 1/2 over the
other 16 hours? Or you could claim that high-heat producing activities are
done between 0800 and 1200 (before the 'heat of the day' sets in). But
regardless, it is totally unrealistic to claim that electrical heat gain at
0300 is the same as 1800 every day. So the daily variations of indoor
temperature are useless.

If you're trying to calculate the hourly changes in temperature, you *have*
to consider the inputs on the same time scale. In order to calculate house
temperature on an hourly basis, you must consider the heat gains/losses on
an hourly basis as well. You've done this with the outdoor air temperature
(albeit out of phase by 6 hours because of the way you used the 'sin'
function), but you haven't done so with the electrical heat gain, nor human
heat inputs (another input you've ignored).

Why ignore human/animal heat gain? You've posted calculations in the past
claiming to heat an 8' cube in the winter with little more than human and
pet heat input. So you've argued that those factors can be important heat
loads in a well designed home, but you selectively ignore them when it
doesn't suit your purpose?

Bottom line is, opening some conventional windows does a better job
controlling summer house temperatures in this climate than your
'ventilation' idea.

Folks like you that claim to have a lot of answers, and write shoddy code to
'prove' it, can be pretty annoying. Junk science is all it is. Yes heat
transfer and fluid flow is a mature, well respected science. But applying
first-year formulas and simplifing to the point of garbage-in / garbage-out
and then holding it out for others to show them how 'smart' you are is
pretty lame. The lay person may actually think your answers are meaningful
since you do use valid formulas. Unfortunately, this is the 'junk
scientist' at his worst. They have enough credibility using some basic
undergraduate level stuff to convince the 'masses' they know what they're
talking about, but they ignore so many factors (too hard for you??) that the
results are not much better than reading tea leaves. And the poor layman
can't tell the difference and may actually build your systems; only to be
disappointed.

Consultants used the same sort of junk science in the late '70's to sell
solar systems to people after the energy crisis. And when those systems
didn't perform anywhere near the claims of the consultants, solar got a lot
of bad press. It's just recovering from that stigma, yet here you are
spouting the same junk science to a whole new generation.

So come on, clean up your act; do the calculations considering *all* the
significant factors; take the time to critique your own work pointing out
its limitations; -or- just admit your doing back-of-the-envelope guesses
that aren't really useful and be done with it.

daestrom

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-23, 1:25 pm

daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:

>
><nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
>news:ejvroo$ove@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
>LIAR! Or is the little smiley supposed to mean it's okay for you to make
>mistakes and claim it's my fault?

Can you say "unshaded windows"? :-)

>Another point; you've averaged the electrical heat gain over 24 hours...

Where should we stop on the way to infinite refinement? I did a TMY2
simulation for heating. Cooling is less interesting, on 70 F July days.

>... opening some conventional windows does a better job controlling
>summer house temperatures in this climate than your 'ventilation' idea.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Nick

Jeff

2006-11-23, 5:25 pm

Solar Flare wrote:
> I have wirnesses derek do this post master thing to about 12 people in
> the last two years. This is as far as his technology goes sometimes.
> Forgive him, he is of Brit decent. He thins it shows intelligence.

There's no reason to plonk someone for one bad post. With that said,
the post in question makes no sense out of context and is double posted
to boot. The OP would do well to emulate posting standards if he wants
to participate in any technical group. I've just had a quick look
through the OPs postings in the group (alt.solar) and there is nothing
there that indicates he knows how to post.

Jeff
>
> "Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1164215210.896877.172490@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>

Abby Normal

2006-11-23, 5:25 pm

Jeff wrote:[color=darkred]
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
> There's no reason to plonk someone for one bad post. With that said,
> the post in question makes no sense out of context and is double posted
> to boot. The OP would do well to emulate posting standards if he wants
> to participate in any technical group. I've just had a quick look
> through the OPs postings in the group (alt.solar) and there is nothing
> there that indicates he knows how to post.
>
> Jeff

The double post was courtesy of google. If it was not crossposted I
would not even be in the Solar or Frugal newsgroups.

In case it was confusing, I will summarize. Nick Pine always likes to
get his elaborate heating schemes to work courtesy of solar gain and
internal gains, then puts forth cooling scenarios that cannot deal with
the same solar gain or internal heat gains that are leaned on like a
crutch to get his heating schemes to work.

George Ghio

2006-11-23, 5:25 pm

Abby Normal wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
> The double post was courtesy of google. If it was not crossposted I
> would not even be in the Solar or Frugal newsgroups.
>
> In case it was confusing, I will summarize. Nick Pine always likes to
> get his elaborate heating schemes to work courtesy of solar gain and
> internal gains, then puts forth cooling scenarios that cannot deal with
> the same solar gain or internal heat gains that are leaned on like a
> crutch to get his heating schemes to work.
>
I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Nick Pine never gets his elaborate
heating schemes to work. He posts pages of calculations in the hope
someone will then do the work to prove his shonky theories work.

He has never done the work himself.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Derek Broughton

2006-11-23, 8:25 pm

Jeff wrote:

> Solar Flare wrote:

What's technology got to do with it?
[color=darkred]

Twelve's probably about right. Given that there are far more than a dozen
assholes on Usenet, I'm pretty restrained. At least I can write in English
_and_ Canadian.[color=darkred]
>
> There's no reason to plonk someone for one bad post. With that said,
> the post in question makes no sense out of context and is double posted
> to boot.

No, I wouldn't normally plonk anyone for one bad post, but my system will
expire the killfile listing in 30 days, and I figure it will take that long
for him to figure out how to post.
[color=darkred]

No, you don't. This is Usenet, please _quote_ when you post.[color=darkred]

If you _knew_ how to post, you would do that part for us, instead of making
us look it up.
--
derek

Gym Bob

2006-11-23, 9:25 pm

Who are you answering? You took pride to <plonk> me months ago a few
times, now.

You seem to need to learn how to post more than most here.

I can read almost anything, top, bottom or interlaced. If it isn't
real exciting I am just not going to read bottom posted, long
messages. Most people are too lazy. If you are so concerned on dotting
the "i"s and crossing the "t"s you should join a grammar or grampar
group.

"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:8qoh34-o01.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
> Jeff wrote:
>
>
> What's technology got to do with it?
>
>
> Twelve's probably about right. Given that there are far more than a
> dozen
> assholes on Usenet, I'm pretty restrained. At least I can write in
> English
> _and_ Canadian.
>
> No, I wouldn't normally plonk anyone for one bad post, but my system
> will
> expire the killfile listing in 30 days, and I figure it will take
> that long
> for him to figure out how to post.
>
>
> No, you don't. This is Usenet, please _quote_ when you post.
>
> If you _knew_ how to post, you would do that part for us, instead of
> making
> us look it up.
> --
> derek

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Solar Flare

2006-11-23, 9:25 pm

Daestrom hasn't gotten laid for a few weeks I guess.

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ek4f33$pmp@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Can you say "unshaded windows"? :-)
>
>
> Where should we stop on the way to infinite refinement? I did a TMY2
> simulation for heating. Cooling is less interesting, on 70 F July
> days.
>
>
> Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?
>
> Nick
>

SJC

2006-11-23, 9:25 pm

Or he might just be tired of people acting like they own Usenet cuz they do math.

"Solar Flare" <solaerfart@hootmail.invalidated> wrote in message news:YuKdnXc-0bfUxPvYnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@golden.net...
> Daestrom hasn't gotten laid for a few weeks I guess.
>
> <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
> news:ek4f33$pmp@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
>
>

Jeff

2006-11-24, 9:25 am

Gym Bob wrote:
> Who are you answering? You took pride to <plonk> me months ago a few
> times, now.
>
> You seem to need to learn how to post more than most here.

No, for whatever faults Derek may have, he knows how to post. Posting
should be done in conversational style. With replies posted after after
the relevant point. Not top posted, or bottom posted. And definitely not
having the whole previous message snipped away. It's polite when
snipping to show who you are replying to and to indicate what was <snip>
ed. Of course you can deviate from that, but never getting *close* to
getting it right is either rude or careless.

>
> I can read almost anything, top, bottom or interlaced. If it isn't
> real exciting I am just not going to read bottom posted, long
> messages.

Sure you can read it, but why not show a little courtesy to make it
easier to read.

Most people are too lazy.

These messages are being read by many who are not replying in this
thread. It's courteous to spend a little time not to make everyone else
have to sort out a mess.

If you are so concerned on dotting
> the "i"s and crossing the "t"s you should join a grammar or grampar
> group.

I'm not a Grammar cop, but where I jumped in is where Ab(by) Normal
said he knew how to post, and there is no evidence of that.

Now, as far as Nick is concerned. Everyone here knows that Nick is a
concept man and whether his ideas ever pan out is questionable. But
there's a lot of ideas in there that are at least interesting. As far as
the number of cross posts he makes I'd say he's pushing it, but the
groups are relevant. I've joined groups that I only found out about
because of crossposts.

I wish that people wouldn't be so nasty to each other, but that
happens. When the spite posts outnumber the relevant posts it makes it
miserable to read a group. I've abandonded groups just because of the
personal wars.

Jeff
>
>
> "Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
> news:8qoh34-o01.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
>
>
>
>
>

Derek Broughton

2006-11-24, 9:25 am

Jeff wrote:

> Gym Bob wrote:

Hell no, Gymmy Bob. You got plonked _permanently_ years ago. As you have
been by most of the regulars. Once in a while you nym shift and make me do
it all over again, but you're not a concern. For the record, it was pretty
obvious who I responded to if you knew how to post and quote.[color=darkred]
>

I'm not. I never flame the spelling of those who post properly, and rarely
even complain about top-posters. But when some idiot like Flare sees fit
to resort to racism, I feel free to point out that he clearly achieved
nothing in school.
[color=darkred]
> Now, as far as Nick is concerned. Everyone here knows that Nick is a
> concept man and whether his ideas ever pan out is questionable. But
> there's a lot of ideas in there that are at least interesting. As far as
> the number of cross posts he makes I'd say he's pushing it, but the
> groups are relevant. I've joined groups that I only found out about
> because of crossposts.

I read Nick's stuff. I even agree with much of Nick's stuff - even after he
demanded a retraction from me for his own mistake. The only reason I ended
up in this thread was because Abby was responding to somebody without
quoting - making it difficult to figure out who he was talking about.
>
> I wish that people wouldn't be so nasty to each other, but that
> happens. When the spite posts outnumber the relevant posts it makes it
> miserable to read a group. I've abandonded groups just because of the
> personal wars.

That's what <plonk> is for.

--
derek

Abby Normal

2006-11-24, 1:25 pm

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>
> What's technology got to do with it?
>
>
> Twelve's probably about right. Given that there are far more than a dozen
> assholes on Usenet, I'm pretty restrained. At least I can write in English
> _and_ Canadian.
>
> No, I wouldn't normally plonk anyone for one bad post, but my system will
> expire the killfile listing in 30 days, and I figure it will take that long
> for him to figure out how to post.
>
>
> No, you don't. This is Usenet, please _quote_ when you post.
>
> If you _knew_ how to post, you would do that part for us, instead of making
> us look it up.
> --
> derek

I guess it is an IQ test, everyone else seems to be able to read me
these past eight years or so.

wmbjk

2006-11-24, 8:25 pm

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:59:39 -0400, Derek Broughton
<news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>Hell no, Gymmy Bob. You got plonked _permanently_ years ago. As you have
>been by most of the regulars. Once in a while you nym shift and make me do
>it all over again, but you're not a concern.

<snip>

> But when some idiot like Flare sees fit
>to resort to racism, I feel free to point out that he clearly achieved
>nothing in school.

Surely you realize that Gymmy Bob and the Solar Flake are the same
person...

Wayne

Jeff

2006-11-24, 8:25 pm

wmbjk wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:59:39 -0400, Derek Broughton
> <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> Surely you realize that Gymmy Bob and the Solar Flake are the same
> person...

I read alt.solar.thermal and I've found Solar Flare generally has good
information. Certainly never cause me any distress, check the archives.
I don't know where you are reading from, but there is no problem here.
alt.solar.thermal is pretty much a low traffic pleasant group. Don't
think we've ever gone below civil.

Just wanted to stick up for someone who has been helpfull in the
past. I've really gotten much more involved in this than I wanted... one
of the disadvantages of Nick's crossposting to groups I don't read.

Jeff

>
> Wayne

Gym Bob

2006-11-24, 9:25 pm

Exactly! The top posting complaint and the cross posting complaint are
just anal bullshit from idiots that are sexually frustrated, most of
the time.

If people want to discuss things they can without resorting to name
calling as daestrom and many others do or pointing out they don't like
somebody else's posting style. Asking for clarification is one thing
but making a fuss about posting style is just crybaby techniques used
for an excuse to not defend your position or left-overs from a
previous embarrassment.

"Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164395725.983211.62370@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> I guess it is an IQ test, everyone else seems to be able to read me
> these past eight years or so.
>

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Solar Flare

2006-11-24, 9:25 pm

Or tired of people that know as much as he does.

"SJC" <sjc_paul_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:C2t9h.6532$w37.1960@trnddc08...[color=darkred]
> Or he might just be tired of people acting like they own Usenet cuz
> they do math.
>
> "Solar Flare" <solaerfart@hootmail.invalidated> wrote in message
> news:YuKdnXc-0bfUxPvYnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@golden.net...

Tony Wesley

2006-11-25, 9:25 am

Gym Bob wrote:
> Exactly! The top posting complaint and the cross posting complaint are
> just anal bullshit from idiots that are sexually frustrated, most of
> the time.
>
> If people want to discuss things they can without resorting to name
> calling as daestrom and many others do or pointing out they don't like
> somebody else's posting style. Asking for clarification is one thing
> but making a fuss about posting style is just crybaby techniques used
> for an excuse to not defend your position or left-overs from a
> previous embarrassment.

What a chuckle!

Complaining abount name-calling but referring to "anal bullshit from
idiots that are sexually frustrated" in the previous sentence and
"crybaby techniques" in the following one.

Abby Normal

2006-11-25, 1:25 pm

Gym Bob wrote:
> Exactly! The top posting complaint and the cross posting complaint are
> just anal bullshit from idiots that are sexually frustrated, most of
> the time.
>
> If people want to discuss things they can without resorting to name
> calling as daestrom and many others do or pointing out they don't like
> somebody else's posting style. Asking for clarification is one thing
> but making a fuss about posting style is just crybaby techniques used
> for an excuse to not defend your position or left-overs from a
> previous embarrassment.

No the cross posting complaint is because a thread in progress appears
suddenly in other newsgroups outside of the 'solar' or 'frugal living'
ones. If you respond without sourcing the very first post in the
original newsgroup, you can seem 'out of context' or can confusing to
people like Derek.

>
>
> "Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1164395725.983211.62370@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Solar Flare

2006-11-25, 1:25 pm

There are browsers capable of putting threads on ignore these days.

Perhaps the "personalities" that lend themselves to this response may
want to get some knowledge of their browser capabilities and not
whine.

"Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164472377.987743.206780@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> Gym Bob wrote:
>
> No the cross posting complaint is because a thread in progress
> appears
> suddenly in other newsgroups outside of the 'solar' or 'frugal
> living'
> ones. If you respond without sourcing the very first post in the
> original newsgroup, you can seem 'out of context' or can confusing
> to
> people like Derek.
>
>
>
>

Gym Bob

2006-11-25, 1:25 pm

Did you see a complaint?

"Tony Wesley" <tonywesley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164467474.345318.274100@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Gym Bob wrote:
>
> What a chuckle!
>
> Complaining abount name-calling but referring to "anal bullshit from
> idiots that are sexually frustrated" in the previous sentence and
> "crybaby techniques" in the following one.
>

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Gym Bob

2006-11-25, 1:25 pm

Then you are not complaining about cross-posting, which is encouraged
by Usenet rules. Rather, you are complaining about subject threads
popping out of nowhere.

Where does old posts fit into this complaint? If my browser retains
more posts than your does I can answer a question from 5 years ago and
some will think it comes from nowhere also.

You will not control the millions of posters into one style of
posting. The smart people here profess otherwise at times. Anybody
that wants to can follow a thread or interpret any posting style if
they so desire. They also have the option to bypass it or killfilter
it. Some choose to attempt to exert their will on others or whine
about it. This is always off-topic any group.

"Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164472377.987743.206780@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> Gym Bob wrote:
>
> No the cross posting complaint is because a thread in progress
> appears
> suddenly in other newsgroups outside of the 'solar' or 'frugal
> living'
> ones. If you respond without sourcing the very first post in the
> original newsgroup, you can seem 'out of context' or can confusing
> to
> people like Derek.
>
>
>
>

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Abby Normal

2006-11-25, 5:25 pm

Gym Bob wrote:
> Then you are not complaining about cross-posting, which is encouraged
> by Usenet rules. Rather, you are complaining about subject threads
> popping out of nowhere.
>
> Where does old posts fit into this complaint? If my browser retains
> more posts than your does I can answer a question from 5 years ago and
> some will think it comes from nowhere also.
>
> You will not control the millions of posters into one style of
> posting. The smart people here profess otherwise at times. Anybody
> that wants to can follow a thread or interpret any posting style if
> they so desire. They also have the option to bypass it or killfilter
> it. Some choose to attempt to exert their will on others or whine
> about it. This is always off-topic any group.
>
>
> "Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1164472377.987743.206780@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Well I see 37 posts in this thread, maybe the first 14 are about
Nick's, GW BAsic pipe dream and the remainder are "He did not quote" ,
"browsers", "learn how to this"

In the old days, I read usenet through an email program, never was into
agent or eudora perhaps. For about the past 6 years it has been limited
through deja and now google

My complaint on the cross posting is threads go on for a while in
newsgroups I could care less about then suddenly in midstream it gets
posted in ones that I frequent.

I never see much of anything on the solar until Nick cross posts it to
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac

Gym Bob

2006-11-25, 5:25 pm

Well crossposting does wreak of "look at me syndrome" a fair bit.

I think most of the annoyance is related to people relating it to spam
posts. If it is topic related, there is no problem.

The biggest problem is people initiating the "fuck you" and "you're an
XXXXXXX" post about it. Now you have hurt feelings and ones of
revenge. Now you have noise...LOL

best of luck

"Abby Normal" <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164488173.850914.63970@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Gym Bob wrote:
>
>
> Well I see 37 posts in this thread, maybe the first 14 are about
> Nick's, GW BAsic pipe dream and the remainder are "He did not quote"
> ,
> "browsers", "learn how to this"
>
> In the old days, I read usenet through an email program, never was
> into
> agent or eudora perhaps. For about the past 6 years it has been
> limited
> through deja and now google
>
> My complaint on the cross posting is threads go on for a while in
> newsgroups I could care less about then suddenly in midstream it
> gets
> posted in ones that I frequent.
>
> I never see much of anything on the solar until Nick cross posts it
> to
> sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
>

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

wmbjk

2006-11-25, 5:25 pm

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:21:45 GMT, Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:

>wmbjk wrote:
>
>
>I read alt.solar.thermal and I've found Solar Flare generally has good
>information.

You should be careful if you plan to use advice based on anything he
claims to have done. It's become obvious that his solar escapades are
BS. Ask for a photo of any of his supposed projects and you might get
to see the real Flake http://tinyurl.com/yf9gn8. He came into the
homepower group as Gymmy and soon found himself filtered. So he
changed his name to Gymmie long enough to declare everyone
bottom-posting idiots, then promptly changed it again and again and
again.

> Certainly never cause me any distress, check the archives.

Check them yourself. Try "Gymmy Bob", and "John P Benji" for starters.
In this one http://tinyurl.com/bnbnw he even became one of the
bottom-posters he'd been complaining about under his previous nym. I
guess it was supposed to part of his crafty <snicker> disguise.

> I don't know where you are reading from, but there is no problem here.
>alt.solar.thermal is pretty much a low traffic pleasant group. Don't
>think we've ever gone below civil.
>
> Just wanted to stick up for someone who has been helpfull in the
>past. I've really gotten much more involved in this than I wanted... one
>of the disadvantages of Nick's crossposting to groups I don't read.
>
> Jeff

If he was even a half-decent poster then he wouldn't have to keep
changing his nym to escape filters, and he wouldn't be up to stupid
troll tricks such as using multiple names in a single thread, or
cross-posting threads to alt.clueless.

Wayne

Gym Bob

2006-11-25, 9:25 pm

Looks like this is really important to you. I come here to discuss and
learn more on the topics at hand.

"wmbjk" <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:dejhm2tkrtciejnao1383l1ipr8iipfsov@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:21:45 GMT, Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:
>
>
> You should be careful if you plan to use advice based on anything he
> claims to have done. It's become obvious that his solar escapades
> are
> BS. Ask for a photo of any of his supposed projects and you might
> get
> to see the real Flake http://tinyurl.com/yf9gn8. He came into the
> homepower group as Gymmy and soon found himself filtered. So he
> changed his name to Gymmie long enough to declare everyone
> bottom-posting idiots, then promptly changed it again and again and
> again.
>
>
> Check them yourself. Try "Gymmy Bob", and "John P Benji" for
> starters.
> In this one http://tinyurl.com/bnbnw he even became one of the
> bottom-posters he'd been complaining about under his previous nym. I
> guess it was supposed to part of his crafty <snicker> disguise.
>
>
> If he was even a half-decent poster then he wouldn't have to keep
> changing his nym to escape filters, and he wouldn't be up to stupid
> troll tricks such as using multiple names in a single thread, or
> cross-posting threads to alt.clueless.
>
> Wayne

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

daestrom

2006-11-26, 1:25 pm

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ek4f33$pmp@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Can you say "unshaded windows"? :-)
>

Yes, but apparently your GW-BASIC can't. I don't see any
statement/calculation that supports your claim that it's in there and I
missed it. I'll repeat my previous question, please "Identify the line of
code that considers solar input in your original listing" that considered
solar heat gain.

>
> Where should we stop on the way to infinite refinement?

When the model 'reasonably' reflects reality. Since you included electrical
heat gain, you must have the opinion that it's 'significant'. Yet you don't
seem to grasp how it's variation over the day/night cycle would affect the
outcome. Simple experimentation with the model (I suggested one 'profile'
you might try, it wouldn't take more than two lines of code to add) would
reveal just how important the profile might be.

A famous quote, "All models are wrong, however some models are useful." But
to be useful, it should predict real-world results with reasonable accuracy.
That means when you remove the line 180 to get the 'non-ventilated' version,
if your model is any good it would be predicting the actual, historical
indoor air temperature swings. Some how, I think your model's predictions
of 92+ F all day/night are not at all correct. Ergo, your model needs more
refinements before it can produce useful data.

Instead, you seem to "pick and choose" what factors to include (when
heating, you consider animal and solar gain, when cooling you don't??). Do
you have any data that swayed your decisions, or is it just 'gut feeling'?
Or perhaps you just left them out because you 'reinvent the wheel' with each
new program you write? When challenged about what choices you've made, you
try to deflect them with, "Where should we stop...." As if to say, "Well we
can't model everything, so I had to draw the line somewhere." But why did
you draw it 'there'? Like I said before, Garbage-In/ Garbage-Out.

Of course, some programming languages would make it easier to re-use code.
So your models could be refined over time to include more and more effects
without having to 'start from scratch' each time (and risk leaving out
important factors). Then you could just use site-specific and
house-specific data to adjust the refined model to a new calculation.

> I did a TMY2
> simulation for heating. Cooling is less interesting, on 70 F July days.
>

Changing the subject? You chose cooling in July.

>
> Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?
>

It would seem the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate your ventilation
idea. Your model is not proof. You compared your ventilation mode with
zero ventilation. Put four 'double-hung' windows (say, an opening of 30" x
30" each) on the first floor and four more on the second floor (two facing
the breeze, two on the leeward side of each floor), and a 3 mph breeze into
your model (without the ventilation scheme) and run it. Shut them in the
morning when outdoor temperature rises above room temperature, and re-open
them in the evening when outdoor temperature drops. Let us see how the
temperatures fair compared to just your ventilation scheme. Keep all the
other factors the same so we can see what the results are of comparing just
windows versus your 'ventilation' idea.

daestrom

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-26, 1:25 pm

daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:

>
>Yes, but apparently your GW-BASIC can't. I don't see any
>statement/calculation that supports your claim that it's in there...

I suggest you look again.

Nick

Jeff

2006-11-27, 3:25 am

Gym Bob wrote:
> Looks like this is really important to you. I come here to discuss and
> learn more on the topics at hand.

One last comment from me. This is being posted to
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac. Although not the most technical of groups, it is
more technical than alt.solar.thermal (ugh thermodynamics).

You never want to annoy the regulars of any technical group. Do your
homework first and elevate your posting techniques.

Review something like this:
<URL: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/posting-rules/part1/ />

You will *always* run afoul of someone if you don't. If you want an
answer from a professional, you *have* to play by the rules.

Yep, I've been taken to the woodshed myself. Don't take it personal,
either learn from it or stay off their playground. Never *ever* get
nasty about it.

Jeff
>
> "wmbjk" <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
> news:dejhm2tkrtciejnao1383l1ipr8iipfsov@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>

Jeff

2006-11-27, 9:25 am

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I suggest you look again.

I don't see it either. All I see is an outdoor temperature and
internal heat from electrical use.

I rarely read the code you post (programmers hate "GOTO"), but I did
this time to see what all the fuss was about.

Jeff
>
> Nick
>

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-27, 9:25 am

Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:

>nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
> I don't see it either. All I see is an outdoor temperature and
>internal heat from electrical use.

I suggest you look again.

Nick

Jeff

2006-11-27, 1:25 pm

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I suggest you look again.

Has anybody ever told you that you can be completely maddening.

You've taken the time to comment the code and it is only handfull of
lines.

20 PI=4*ATN(1)
30 W=2*PI/24'angular freq (radians)
40 C=3200'house thermal mass (Btu/F)
50 G=120'house conductance to outdoors (Btu/h-F)
60 AV=4'vent area (ft2)
70 HV=16'vent height difference (feet)
80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)
90 DGAIN=3412*ECON/30'internal heat gain (Btu/day)
100 HGAIN=DGAIN/24'internal heat gain (Btu/h)
110 TR=70.2'average July temp in Rochester NY (F)
120 FOR D= 1 TO 10'simulate for 10 average days
130 FOR H=0 TO 23
140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*H)'outdoor temp (F)
150 Q=HGAIN+(T-TR)*G'heatflow from walls into room (Btu)
160 IF T>TR THEN CFM=0:GOTO 190'no venting
170 CFM=16.6*AV*SQR(HV*(TR-T))'vent airflow (cfm)
180 Q=Q-CFM*(TR-T)'lower heat gain by venting
190 TR=TR+Q/C'new house temp (F)
200 IF D=10 AND H MOD 2 = 0 THEN PRINT T,TR,CFM
210 NEXT H
220 NEXT D

There is no solar heat gain. Only an HGAIN derived from kWHr consumption
and a heat derived from house conductance and proportional to the
difference between indoor and outdoor temperature. Pwerhaps you have no
windows or you are considering that solar heat gain is factored in here:

140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*H)'outdoor temp (F)
150 Q=HGAIN+(T-TR)*G'heatflow from walls into room (Btu)

or here:

80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)

But that would appear to be a poor assumption and is not noted as such.
You may be right, but the current conventional wisdom is that you've
gone off your rocker on this and you are being unresponsive.

Jeff
>
> Nick
>

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-27, 5:25 pm

Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:
>nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
> Has anybody ever told you that you can be completely maddening.

Frequently :-)

> You've taken the time to comment the code and it is only handfull of
>lines.
>
>20 PI=4*ATN(1)
>30 W=2*PI/24'angular freq (radians)
>40 C=3200'house thermal mass (Btu/F)
>50 G=120'house conductance to outdoors (Btu/h-F)
>60 AV=4'vent area (ft2)
>70 HV=16'vent height difference (feet)
>80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)
>90 DGAIN=3412*ECON/30'internal heat gain (Btu/day)
>100 HGAIN=DGAIN/24'internal heat gain (Btu/h)...

>There is no solar heat gain. Only an HGAIN derived from kWHr consumption...

I suggest you look again.

Nick

daestrom

2006-11-27, 5:25 pm

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:eken58$r7v@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:
>
>
> I suggest you look again.
>

Nick, I suggest that *you* look at which thread you're posting. You've
posted a Rochester heating example with a semi-spherical heat
storage/collection system in another thread. But if you go back up and read
your own post, then you might see what a fool you've made of yourself.

I suggest you look at what you wrote in *this* thread.

I suggest you try and answer my question, "What line of code in your listing
is adding in the solar gain?"

daestrom

daestrom

2006-11-27, 8:25 pm

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ekfeti$rhj@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Jeff <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote:
>
> Frequently :-)
>
>
>
> I suggest you look again.
>

You're a broken record.
I suggest you go back and look at the code you posted at the top of this
thread.

I suggest you get your head out of your a__ and actually read what some of
the other people have posted before replying to them. Including the
complete listing of your original post.

I suggest you stop posting GW-BASIC code until you can actually understand
the stuff you've already posted. You *obviously* have not gone back and
looked at your own post, yet you continue to waste our time with "I suggest
you look again."

I suggest you take me up on my request and tell us *all* what line of code
in your original posting takes into account the solar energy input.

I suggest that if you think your code *does* account for solar energy,
you've invented your own physics that doesn't comply with any of that
'hundred year old physics' you're so fond of.

Here, let's take your original code, line by line.

>20 PI=4*ATN(1)
A derivation of the value of PI. Nope, no solar energy input there.

>30 W=2*PI/24'angular freq (radians)
A conversion factor to convert hours of the day into radians for use in a
sin function. It will be used in line 140. That line occurs inside two
nested loops, so to save computational time, you perform some of the
calculation here and save the intermediate results in variable W. Nope, no
solar energy input there.

>40 C=3200'house thermal mass (Btu/F)
The capacitance of the house. This variable is only used in line 190. It
doesn't really save any computational time to have it here, but then it
doesn't really cost anything but a word in memory, so what the heck. Nope,
no solar energy input there.

>50 G=120'house conductance to outdoors (Btu/h-F)
Labeled as 'conductance' although it could include the overall effects of
air infiltration (other than the ventilation panels) to give an overall heat
transfer coefficient with some outdoor temperature. Has to be for
temperature-differential based heat transfer since it is F in the
denominator of the units. This supposition is also supported by how it is
used in line 150 for heat losses. It's only used in line 150, but like the
variable 'C' above, it only costs a word in memory. Nope, no solar energy
input there.

>60 AV=4'vent area (ft2)
Described as the cross-sectional area of the ventilation inlet. Used in
line 170. Nope, no solar energy input there.

>70 HV=16'vent height difference (feet)
The height between the lower and upper vents. Also used in line 170. Nope,
no solar energy input there.

>80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)
Described as electrical energy dissipated inside the house over a one month
period. Presumably this is some 'average' usage for the house in question.
Seems high for July with no A/C, but not extreme. Nope, no solar energy
input there.

>90 DGAIN=3412*ECON/30'internal heat gain (Btu/day)
Conversion of electrical energy dissipated in the house over one month to
BTUs and then converted to daily use by taking the total usage and dividing
by the number of days. Oh, but July has 31 days. Well, maybe the meter
reader came a day early. Nope, no solar energy input there.

>100 HGAIN=DGAIN/24'internal heat gain (Btu/h)
Calculate the average hourly usage from the average daily usage. Pretty
naive to think that energy usage is 'flat' throughout the day and night.
Most people use more electricity when they are awake, but maybe Nick is a
'night-owl' and keeps the lights 'burning' 24 hours a day. No wonder his
house overheats without ventilation. Nope, no solar energy input there.

>110 TR=70.2'average July temp in Rochester NY (F)
Average outdoor air temperature. This is the dry bulb temperature of the
air taken from your data source. It does not have solar energy input since
dry bulb temperature recordings are classically taken "in the shade and out
of the wind". Nope, no solar energy input there.

> 120 FOR D= 1 TO 10'simulate for 10 average days
Begin a ten day iteration to allow temperatures to stabilize. Nope, no
solar energy input there.

>130 FOR H=0 TO 23
Iterate on an hourly basis through-out the 'day'. Nope, no solar energy
input there.

>140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*H)'outdoor temp (F)
Calculate an hourly air temperature. This assumes a nice sinusoidal
variation about the 70.2 F with a peak at 80.7 F and a minimum at 59.7 F.
It has a phase-shift error, it predicts the daily minimum at hour 18, a
daily maximum at hour 6 and 70.2 F at hours 0 and 12. You could just print
out the hour with a phase shift the other way, but this error will make it
difficult to add any other 'hourly' variables, since it wouldn't be obvious
that H=6 is really local noon. Nope, no solar energy input there.

>150 Q=HGAIN+(T-TR)*G'heatflow from walls into room (Btu)
A calculation to determine net heat energy in/out of the house. Ah, now
*this* is where you would have a solar energy input *if* you had one, but
nope. We have HGAIN, the hourly electrical energy dissipated inside the
house from line 100 and (T-TR)*G. This second term is a temperature
difference (the hourly outdoor temperature calculated in line 140, and TR
the temperature of the house. No sign anywhere of the temperature of the
sun's surface. And the term G is the thermal conductance between the
interior and the exterior of the house. Nope, no solar energy input there.
Too bad, this is the spot to add it in if you wanted to, but you didn't and
can't even seem to remember not doing it.

>160 IF T>TR THEN CFM=0:GOTO 190'no venting
A simple if-check to turn off any ventilation if the house is cooler than
the outdoors. This is accomplished by the cooler air inside the house
holding your plastic 'check-valves' shut. If they are shut, we skip the
next two lines of code (that update Q based on the ventilation). Nope, no
solar energy input there.

>170 CFM=16.6*AV*SQR(HV*(TR-T))'vent airflow (cfm)
If we get to this line, it's because the GOTO in line 160 wasn't executed.
That would mean that the house temperature TR is not less than the outside
hourly air temperature T. So the plastic 'check-valves' are not shut and a
formula taken from ASHRAE gives you an approximation of vertical air flow
from the thermo-siphon effect. Nope, no solar energy input there.

>180 Q=Q-CFM*(TR-T)'lower heat gain by venting
Adjust the net energy gain/loss for the house by the amount of air flowing.
There is an implicit assumptions in this line of code that a cubic foot of
air has a heat capacity of 1/60 BTU/F. Not too bad, but not real close. So
for every cubic foot removed in a minute, 60 cubic feet are removed in an
hour, and that amounts to 1 BTU/F. So multiply air flow in CFM by the
temperature difference between the incoming and outgoing air to get the
amount of heat carried off by that air. This also assumes the density of
the outside air is the same as inside air (something we *know* to not be
true, otherwise there would be no circulation). But to a 'first-order'
approximation, eh, it works. But nothing to do with solar input. Nope, no
solar energy input there.

>190 TR=TR+Q/C'new house temp (F)
Adjustment of the house interior temperature using the amount of heat
added/removed and the capacitance of the house. Nope, no solar energy input
there.

>200 IF D=10 AND H MOD 2 = 0 THEN PRINT T,TR,CFM
A simple if-check to print out the results on day 10 only, and only print
out the data on 'even' numbered hours, to save printout space? Nope, no
solar energy input there.

>210 NEXT H
>220 NEXT D
Iterate to the next hour and the next day respectively. Nope, no solar
energy input there.

Look again Nick, you left out solar energy inputs to the house. You've been
told this by others as well as myself and all you can do is try a rather
lame, "I suggest you look again."

If it's really there, you would have replied with the line number and an
explanation of how the calculation works (as I have asked you to do several
times). Yet you haven't. So rather than fess up and admit to an error, you
try and remain arrogant about it, and hide behind some aloof, "I suggest you
look again.". It may work once or twice, but your constant repeating
without explanation is showing you to just be an arrogant fool that can't
admit his own mistake.

I'm done with you. I've given you suggestions to improve your coding, but
you've ignored them. I've asked you where you think solar energy is
factored into your code but you've ignored such requests.

But I'll continue to point out that your code is *not* a valid model. It
doesn't predict real-world behavior. You are selective in what
terms/factors to include and I can only conclude at this point that it's a
deliberate move on your part to bolster your idea/viewpoint. It's obvious
to me that you want to 'sell' your ideas and you're trying to use 'selective
physics' to make them look better than they really are. If you were being
paid for your idea, some folks would call it fraud.

Which do you fall under, "Liars, Damn Liars, or Statisticians"?

daestrom

Abby Normal

2006-11-27, 8:25 pm

Nick Pine wrote:
> This simulation of automatic night ventilation over an average July day
> in Rochester NY with 4 ft^2 of vent area at the top and bottom of a small
> 2-story house with 1200 pounds of water in 4" PVC pipes under a shiny
> ceiling to store overnight winter heat from a sunspace shows the house
> can be comfortable with no AC and 20 kWh/day of internal heat gain from
> electrical use or unshaded windows, with about 600 cfm of natural airflow
> for about 14 hours per day, when it's cooler outdoors. Doubling the vent
> area lowers the max indoor temp about 1 F. Doubling thermal mass drops it
> 4 F. The mass stays well above the average 61 F dewpoint.
>
> There will be a 1000 gallon heat storage tank in the basement for 5 cloudy
> days and hot water for showers, heated with 64' of fin-tube pipe in an air
> heater inside a sunspace, but we want to keep that hot for DHW in summertime.
> As an alternative, one of two stratified tanks in the basement might be cool
> in summertime.
>
> 20 PI=4*ATN(1)
> 30 W=2*PI/24'angular freq (radians)
> 40 C=3200'house thermal mass (Btu/F)
> 50 G=120'house conductance to outdoors (Btu/h-F)
> 60 AV=4'vent area (ft^2)
> 70 HV=16'vent height difference (feet)
> 80 ECON=600'internal electrical use (kWh/month)
> 90 DGAIN=3412*ECON/30'internal heat gain (Btu/day)
> 100 HGAIN=DGAIN/24'internal heat gain (Btu/h)
> 110 TR=70.2'average July temp in Rochester NY (F)
> 120 FOR D= 1 TO 10'simulate for 10 average days
> 130 FOR H=0 TO 23
> 140 T=70.2+(80.7-70.2)*SIN(W*H)'outdoor temp (F)
> 150 Q=HGAIN+(T-TR)*G'heatflow from walls into room (Btu)
> 160 IF T>TR THEN CFM=0:GOTO 190'no venting
> 170 CFM=16.6*AV*SQR(HV*(TR-T))'vent airflow (cfm)
> 180 Q=Q-CFM*(TR-T)'lower heat gain by venting
> 190 TR=TR+Q/C'new house temp (F)
> 200 IF D=10 AND H MOD 2 = 0 THEN PRINT T,TR,CFM
> 210 NEXT H
> 220 NEXT D
>
> hour outdoors indoors cfm
>
> 0 70.2 (F) 68.5808 (F) 0
> 2 75.45 70.7387 0
> 4 79.29327 73.0518 0
> 6 80.7 75.34551 0
> 8 79.29326 77.41766 0
> 10 75.45 78.69283 449.4819
> 12 70.2 76.91831 751.8333
> 14 64.94999 72.89406 843.9746
> 16 61.10673 68.78081 823.9965
> 18 59.7 66.10492 727.5638
> 20 61.10674 65.48225 558.7523
> 22 64.95001 66.67577 258.8256
>
> When I disabled venting by commenting out line 180 above,
> the house got very uncomfortable:
>
> 0 70.2 92.42486
> 2 75.45 92.82798
> 4 79.29327 93.51543
> 6 80.7 94.30314
> 8 79.29326 94.98013
> 10 75.45 95.36509
> 12 70.2 95.35495
> 14 64.94999 94.9525
> 16 61.10673 94.26566
> 18 59.7 93.47852
> 20 61.10674 92.80206
> 22 64.95001 92.41759
>
> So we might have a 2'x2' vent with a one-way plastic film damper near
> the floor that lets cool air flow into the house, with a plywood door
> or a 2-watt motorized foamboard damper over that which can be closed
> if the house becomes too cool, eg less than 65 F.
>
> Nick

Lol nick is just saying that he is allowing for 600 kwh per month of
internal gain from electricial power or 'solar gain through windows'

He never allows for how the sun beats on the walls or the roof as usual
and treats any conduction through the walls/roof as if it was a simple
heat loss calculation, like always

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-28, 9:25 am

daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>I suggest you get your head out of your a__ and actually read what some of
>the other people have posted before replying to them.

I suggest you be less arrogant and more polite and look more carefully for
the phrase "unshaded windows."

Nick

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-28, 1:25 pm

Abby Normal <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Nick Pine wrote:

[color=darkred]
>Lol nick is just saying that he is allowing for 600 kwh per month of
>internal gain from electricial power or 'solar gain through windows'

Bingo.

>He never allows for how the sun beats on the walls or the roof as usual
>and treats any conduction through the walls/roof as if it was a simple
>heat loss calculation, like always

Sure. One hopes the 800 ft^2 roof of this 2-story addition will be
a light color. If so, it might reflect 80% of full sun and absorb
50 Btu/h-ft^2. With Rochester's average V = 8.2 mph July wind, we'd
have an airfilm conductance of about 2+V/2 = 6.1 Btu/h-F-ft^2, ie
something like this, viewed in a fixed font:

T+8.2
|
--- | R48
|----|-->|----*----www--- 70 F
--- |
50Btu/h |
|
1/6.1 |
T ----www----

For an extra 800x8.2/R48 = 137 Btu/h, or less, counting the R8 foil layer
under the ceiling.

Then again, as daestrom says, if the internal heat gains all come in
a short time, say 4 hours, it would help to include the thermal mass of
the attached house, with some open doors to make a thermosyphoning airpath
from the cathedral ceiling of the addition through the 2nd floor of the house
and back down to the first floor and back into the addition, in July.

Nick

Abby Normal

2006-11-28, 1:25 pm

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Abby Normal <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Bingo.
>
>
> Sure. One hopes the 800 ft^2 roof of this 2-story addition will be
> a light color. If so, it might reflect 80% of full sun and absorb
> 50 Btu/h-ft^2. With Rochester's average V = 8.2 mph July wind, we'd
> have an airfilm conductance of about 2+V/2 = 6.1 Btu/h-F-ft^2, ie
> something like this, viewed in a fixed font:
>
>
> T+8.2
> |
> --- | R48
> |----|-->|----*----www--- 70 F
> --- |
> 50Btu/h |
> |
> 1/6.1 |
> T ----www----
>
> For an extra 800x8.2/R48 = 137 Btu/h, or less, counting the R8 foil layer
> under the ceiling.
>
> Then again, as daestrom says, if the internal heat gains all come in
> a short time, say 4 hours, it would help to include the thermal mass of
> the attached house, with some open doors to make a thermosyphoning airpath
> from the cathedral ceiling of the addition through the 2nd floor of the house
> and back down to the first floor and back into the addition, in July.
>
> Nick

Well Nick, I have actually built something with thermal mass, a
reflective roof, and insulation exterior to the attic. To eliminate the
solar collection scheme, but I do not have to be concerned with ice
dams.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d...ctober/Back.jpg

So you are insulating on the roof pitch or the ceiling plane. Majority
of heat transfer in an attic is radiant. Have you been in an attic with
R40 at the ceiling plane and superheated air above it?

The sun also elevates the temperatures of walls well above the ambinet
air temperature. Maybe search CLTDs on the HOF

Gym Bob

2006-11-28, 8:25 pm

Fair enough. You play by the rules and I will give you answers then.

"Jeff" <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote in message
news:xjvah.4308$1s6.2855@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...[color=darkred]
> Gym Bob wrote:
>
> One last comment from me. This is being posted to
> sci.engr.heat-vent-ac. Although not the most technical of groups, it
> is more technical than alt.solar.thermal (ugh thermodynamics).
>
> You never want to annoy the regulars of any technical group. Do
> your homework first and elevate your posting techniques.
>
> Review something like this:
> <URL: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/posting-rules/part1/ />
>
> You will *always* run afoul of someone if you don't. If you want an
> answer from a professional, you *have* to play by the rules.
>
> Yep, I've been taken to the woodshed myself. Don't take it
> personal, either learn from it or stay off their playground. Never
> *ever* get nasty about it.
>
> Jeff

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

darrylvan

2006-11-28, 8:25 pm

being paid for your idea, some folks would call it fraud.
>
> Which do you fall under, "Liars, Damn Liars, or Statisticians"?
>
> daestrom
>

I think his 600 kw/H per month includes 20kw/h per day of electrical AND
solar heat gain i.e. unshaded windows he repeats over and over.

-darryl

daestrom

2006-11-30, 5:25 pm

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:ekh46e$rqi@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I suggest you be less arrogant and more polite and look more carefully for
> the phrase "unshaded windows."
>

Speaking of 'arrogant', maybe if you just answered the question about ten
posts back, others (including myself) wouldn't treat you so badly. A
simple, "I assumed the 600 kWh/month that is listed as 'electric usage' in
line 80 also included whatever solar gain there might be."

But instead, you acted smug and replied with "you missed it", "look again",
and other rather arrogant replies. In your leading paragraph you state,
"... be comfortable with no AC and 20 kWh/day of internal heat gain from
electrical use or unshaded windows." I read line 80 in your listing as
'electrical usage' *or* unshaded windows. Not both. It's not my fault you
wrote conflicting statements. Maybe you should consider a writing class at
your local college.

But you seem too arrogant to consider that your message is ambiguous and
unclear, despite the large number of folks that asked you where the 'solar
gain' is in your model. Didn't it occur to you (your arrogance again) that
none of us considered that when you said, "...internal heat gain from
electrical use OR [emphasis added] unshaded windows.", what you really meant
was, "...internal heat gain from electrical use AND unshaded windows."
Pardon us for not reading your mind instead of only reading what you typed.
Yyou took the time to comment your code this time (an unusual event), and
commented line 80 to be " 'internal electrical use (kWh/month)", with no
mention of 'unshaded windows'. So many of us felt that you were using 600
kWh/month as either the 'electric usage' -OR- the equivalent in solar gain,
not both.

If you had commented that it was "internal electric plus unshaded windows
(kWh/month)", then we would have seen that you meant "...internal heat gain
from electrical use AND unshaded windows." But you didn't, and you didn't
bother to clarify yourself at all, despite several requests, you just sat
back, acting smug with "look again", etc... Now, that's arrogance. No,
you can't argue that, "Well, daestrom got 'snippy' with me, so I didn't
answer him". You didn't answer anyone else that asked either (there were
several). Do you really think the stuff you post is that clear and precise?
Arrogance again??

So, how did you arrive at the number 600 for both electric and solar
combined? Electric would have just been read the meter for the month. But
solar? Or did you just read the meter for the month and 'fudge' it a bit
higher?

My usage in June/July/August without A/C ran about 500 kWhr/month the last
several years, so I suspect your number is pretty low. Got an idea how much
solar gain from 'unshaded windows' really is for Rochester NY, or is that
just something you pulled out of someplace where the sun doesn't shine?

Still waiting to here how your idea compares with a version of your model
running with just 'open the window'

daestrom

Tony Wesley

2006-11-30, 8:25 pm

daestrom wrote:
[...]
> Still waiting to here how your idea compares with a version of your model
> running with just 'open the window'

Let me answer that for you.

sx=0:sy=0:sxx=0:sxy=0:syy=0
for i=1 to n
sx=sx+x(i)
sy=sy+y(i)
sxx=sxx+x(i)*x(i)
sxy=sxy+x(i)*y(i)
syy=syy+y(i)*y(i)
next i
b=(sxy-sx*sy/n)/(sxx-sx*sx/n)
a=(sy-sx*b)/n
r=(sxy-sx*sy/n)/sqr((sxx-sx*sx/n)*(syy-sy*sy/n))
IF ym > 0! THEN above = 1 ELSE above = 0
'used later to classify non-risings
DO
'ym = sinalt(iobj%, date, hour - 1, glong, cl, sl) - sinho(iobj%)
y0 = sinalt(iobj%, date, hour, glong, cl, sl) - sinho(iobj%)
yp = sinalt(iobj%, date, hour + 1, glong, cl, sl) - sinho(iobj%)
xe = 0
ye = 0
z1 = 0
z2 = 0
nz% = 0
quad ym, y0, yp, xe, ye, z1, z2, nz%
SELECT CASE nz%
CASE 0 'nothing - go to next time slot
CASE 1 ' simple rise / set event
IF (ym < 0!) THEN ' must be a rising event
utrise = hour + z1
rise = 1
ELSE ' must be setting
utset = hour + z1
sett = 1
END IF
CASE 2 ' rises and sets within interval
IF (ye < 0!) THEN ' minimum - so set then rise
utrise = hour + z2
utset = hour + z1
ELSE ' maximum - so rise then set
utrise = hour + z1
utset = hour + z2
END IF
rise = 1
sett = 1
zero2 = 1
END SELECT
ym = yp 'reuse the ordinate in the next interval
hour = hour + 2
LOOP UNTIL (hour = 25) OR (rise * sett = 1)
utrise = hm(utrise)
utset = hm(utset)
PRINT
PRINT " "; obname$(iobj%)
' logic to sort the various rise and set states
IF (rise = 1 OR sett = 1) THEN 'current object rises and sets today
IF rise = 1 THEN
PRINT USING p$; utrise
ELSE
PRINT " ----"
END IF
IF sett = 1 THEN
PRINT USING p$; utset
ELSE
PRINT " ----"
END IF
ELSE 'current object not so simple
IF above = 1 THEN
SELECT CASE iobj%
CASE 1, 2: PRINT " always above horizon"
CASE 3: PRINT " always bright"
END SELECT
ELSE
SELECT CASE iobj%
CASE 1, 2: PRINT " always below horizon"
CASE 3: PRINT " always dark"
END SELECT
END IF
END IF

....the window thing is probably pretty good!

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2006-11-30, 8:25 pm

daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:

>... if you just answered the question about ten posts back, others
>(including myself) wouldn't treat you so badly...

How unfortunate. I was hoping you'd put your male ego back in your pants
and apologize now :-)

Nick

Abby Normal

2006-11-30, 8:25 pm

daestrom wrote:
> <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
> news:ekh46e$rqi@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
> Speaking of 'arrogant', maybe if you just answered the question about ten
> posts back, others (including myself) wouldn't treat you so badly. A
> simple, "I assumed the 600 kWh/month that is listed as 'electric usage' in
> line 80 also included whatever solar gain there might be."
>
> But instead, you acted smug and replied with "you missed it", "look again",
> and other rather arrogant replies. In your leading paragraph you state,
> "... be comfortable with no AC and 20 kWh/day of internal heat gain from
> electrical use or unshaded windows." I read line 80 in your listing as
> 'electrical usage' *or* unshaded windows. Not both. It's not my fault you
> wrote conflicting statements. Maybe you should consider a writing class at
> your local college.
>
> But you seem too arrogant to consider that your message is ambiguous and
> unclear, despite the large number of folks that asked you where the 'solar
> gain' is in your model. Didn't it occur to you (your arrogance again) that
> none of us considered that when you said, "...internal heat gain from
> electrical use OR [emphasis added] unshaded windows.", what you really meant
> was, "...internal heat gain from electrical use AND unshaded windows."
> Pardon us for not reading your mind instead of only reading what you typed.
> Yyou took the time to comment your code this time (an unusual event), and
> commented line 80 to be " 'internal electrical use (kWh/month)", with no
> mention of 'unshaded windows'. So many of us felt that you were using 600
> kWh/month as either the 'electric usage' -OR- the equivalent in solar gain,
> not both.
>
> If you had commented that it was "internal electric plus unshaded windows
> (kWh/month)", then we would have seen that you meant "...internal heat gain
> from electrical use AND unshaded windows." But you didn't, and you didn't
> bother to clarify yourself at all, despite several requests, you just sat
> back, acting smug with "look again", etc... Now, that's arrogance. No,
> you can't argue that, "Well, daestrom got 'snippy' with me, so I didn't
> answer him". You didn't answer anyone else that asked either (there were
> several). Do you really think the stuff you post is that clear and precise?
> Arrogance again??
>
> So, how did you arrive at the number 600 for both electric and solar
> combined? Electric would have just been read the meter for the month. But
> solar? Or did you just read the meter for the month and 'fudge' it a bit
> higher?
>
> My usage in June/July/August without A/C ran about 500 kWhr/month the last
> several years, so I suspect your number is pretty low. Got an idea how much
> solar gain from 'unshaded windows' really is for Rochester NY, or is that
> just something you pulled out of someplace where the sun doesn't shine?
>
> Still waiting to here how your idea compares with a version of your model
> running with just 'open the window'
>
> daestrom

600 kWh is peanuts

LinkBot