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NREL's hydrogen-wind plan
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| lkgeo1 2006-12-08, 9:25 am |
| NREL's hydrogen-wind plan
Lab partners with Xcel to develop combo technology
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By Gargi Chakrabarty, Rocky Mountain News
December 8, 2006
The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Xcel Energy next week will
announce an ambitious $2 million research partnership to use hydrogen
for storing wind electricity.
The ground-breaking technology will use wind power to separate hydrogen
from water and store that hydrogen in special containers so it can be
used later to generate electricity.
Scientists say the stored hydrogen, for instance, can be used in fuel
cells or gas turbines to generate electricity at peak demand hours,
such as during afternoons in summer when customers crank up air
conditioners. The stored hydrogen also can be used to make
transportation fuel.
Developing the technology is important for Xcel, which is committed to
buying power from many new wind projects in order to comply with the
renewable energy standards passed by voters in November 2004.
"This partnership with NREL is another example of our commitment to
reducing our impact on the environment," said Xcel spokeswoman Ethnie
Groves.
The system will be at NREL's National Wind Technology Center, where
hydrogen will be produced, compressed and stored. The research is
expected to be completed by 2008. At that time, Xcel will to move the
equipment to another location in Colorado.
Xcel plans to invest more than $1.25 million in the project. NREL and
the Department of Energy will to invest approximately $750,000.
Richard Kelly, chairman, president and CEO of Xcel, along with Dan
Arvizu, director of National Renewable Energy Laboratory, will announce
the partnership on Thursday.
Xcel has 282 megawatts of wind power in its system. It has OK'd another
775 megawatts worth of new projects, which will be online by the end of
2007.
Those projects will bring Xcel in compliance with Amendment 37, or
Colorado's renewable energy standard.
The mandate requires Xcel to acquire 10 percent of its electricity
sales from renewable sources such as wind, sun, or plant and animal
waste through 2015. At least 4 percent of that must come from solar
energy.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...5198276,00.html
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| Eeyore 2006-12-08, 9:25 am |
|
lkgeo1 wrote:
> The ground-breaking technology will use wind power to separate hydrogen
> from water and store that hydrogen in special containers so it can be
> used later to generate electricity.
Bwahahahahahaha !
What a hopelessly inefficient method.
Graham
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| lkgeo1 2006-12-08, 1:25 pm |
| what is YOUR solution JACKASS?
Eeyore wrote:
> lkgeo1 wrote:
>
>
> Bwahahahahahaha !
>
> What a hopelessly inefficient method.
>
> Graham
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| On 8 Dec 2006 07:47:23 -0800, "lkgeo1" <lkgeo1@aol.com> wrote:
>Eeyore wrote:
[color=darkred]
>what is YOUR solution JACKASS?
Mine is:
1. Actually do things, rather than just yak about doing them.
2. Generate and store my own energy efficiently (ie hydrogen = never).
3. Only invest in profitable companies.
4. Mock idiots who do the opposite of 1, 2 and 3.
Wayne
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| Eeyore 2006-12-08, 5:25 pm |
|
wmbjk wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2006 07:47:23 -0800, "lkgeo1" <lkgeo1@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Mine is:
>
> 1. Actually do things, rather than just yak about doing them.
> 2. Generate and store my own energy efficiently (ie hydrogen = never).
> 3. Only invest in profitable companies.
> 4. Mock idiots who do the opposite of 1, 2 and 3.
You just said hydrogen = never.
My own point exactly.
Graham
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| homeboy465 2006-12-08, 5:25 pm |
|
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4579C20F.668F1D39@hotmail.com...
>
>
> wmbjk wrote:
>
>
> You just said hydrogen = never.
>
> My own point exactly.
>
> Graham
>
ok this sounds like a pointless arguement and the simple fast is that it is
being tried if anyone has some more efficent way of producing energy then
they should put up thoue ideas for the greater good if not they shouldn;t be
at others attempts it isn;t always about going with what we have but abut
using that to develop new and more effeciant ways to do it.
| |
| George Ghio 2006-12-08, 5:25 pm |
| wmbjk wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2006 07:47:23 -0800, "lkgeo1" <lkgeo1@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Mine is:
>
> 1. Actually do things, rather than just yak about doing them.
Copy a system then keep throwing money at it until it works, hire
contractors to build a house then claim to have built it.
> 2. Generate and store my own energy efficiently (ie hydrogen = never).
Can't define his loads, therefore, can't know what his energy efficiency is.
> 3. Only invest in profitable companies.
Treats the stock market as if it is a gambling venue.
> 4. Mock idiots who do the opposite of 1, 2 and 3.
Self mocking idiot.
>
> Wayne
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| Eeyore 2006-12-08, 5:25 pm |
|
homeboy465 wrote:
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> ok this sounds like a pointless arguement and the simple fast is that it is
> being tried if anyone has some more efficent way of producing energy then
> they should put up thoue ideas for the greater good if not they shouldn;t be
> at others attempts it isn;t always about going with what we have but abut
> using that to develop new and more effeciant ways to do it.
The whole point is that using electricity to generate hydrogen to regenerate
electricity in a fuel cell for the grid is *so* inefficient that it's
counter-productive even to bother.
You'be almost be better off burning the money to keep warm.
Far more sense would be to use that money to invest in other more suitable and
relevant technologies.
Graham
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| homeboy465 2006-12-09, 9:25 am |
|
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4579ED6C.47557F65@hotmail.com...
>
>
> homeboy465 wrote:
>
>
> The whole point is that using electricity to generate hydrogen to
> regenerate
> electricity in a fuel cell for the grid is *so* inefficient that it's
> counter-productive even to bother.
>
> You'be almost be better off burning the money to keep warm.
>
> Far more sense would be to use that money to invest in other more suitable
> and
> relevant technologies.
>
> Graham
>
>what would you suggest using instead ? i hear alot of people talking about
>having a few acers to use buut none of then seem to be using geothermal
>energy which i have seen in action here must by burring a coil of maybe 100
>meters of plastic tubing and that conected to a copper cpil an i water
>tank the geothermal heat heats water in the pipes thenafering that to the
>copper element in the tank and heating that water it may not be boiling but
>is good enough for a shower and that but this could also be used to provide
>het for a stirling engine? thats my sugestion but maybe not too practical
>at the moment as full size stirling engins are far a nd few between at the
>moment. but i would love to hear your suggestons for practical ideas not
>just saying that one method is inefficant and we should use what is being
>developed well develop sonething
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| > NREL's hydrogen-wind plan
> Lab partners with Xcel to develop combo technology
> By Gargi Chakrabarty, Rocky Mountain News
> December 8, 2006
> The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Xcel Energy next week will
> announce an ambitious $2 million research partnership to use hydrogen
> for storing wind electricity.
> The ground-breaking technology will use wind power to separate hydrogen
> from water and store that hydrogen in special containers so it can be
> used later to generate electricity.
Very Very Bad Idea. The highest efficiency for electrolysis of water is
60%, (50% more typical, homebrew can be below 20%). Then used in a fuel
cell at 50% (or less) results in an efficiency of 30% or less. Then
subtract the energy needed to compress, or worse, liquify the hydrogen, and
overall efficiency drops even lower. That's the "more efficient" option -
running IC engines on hydrogen would be in the single digit efficiendy
range. Compare that with battery efficiency that can be over 80%, and it
looks really poor, indeed.
Then add the incredible bulkiness of hydrogen, and the huge and expensive
tanks required, and it becomes obvious that it is the most expensive way to
store power as well as the least efficient.
> Developing the technology is important for Xcel, which is committed to
> buying power from many new wind projects in order to comply with the
> renewable energy standards passed by voters in November 2004.
>
> "This partnership with NREL is another example of our commitment to
> reducing our impact on the environment," said Xcel spokeswoman Ethnie
> Groves.
The concern for the environment is honorable, it's the methods that are
questionable.
> The system will be at NREL's National Wind Technology Center, where
> hydrogen will be produced, compressed and stored. The research is
> expected to be completed by 2008. At that time, Xcel will to move the
> equipment to another location in Colorado.
>
> Xcel plans to invest more than $1.25 million in the project. NREL and
> the Department of Energy will to invest approximately $750,000.
Sigh. Wouldn't be the first time a company has been suckered into
squandered large amounts of money on nearly worthless technology. Won't be
the last time, either. At least, they haven't squandered nearly as much as
GM and Honda.
> Richard Kelly, chairman, president and CEO of Xcel, along with Dan
> Arvizu, director of National Renewable Energy Laboratory, will announce
> the partnership on Thursday.
>
> Xcel has 282 megawatts of wind power in its system. It has OK'd another
> 775 megawatts worth of new projects, which will be online by the end of
> 2007.
And they will be throwing away a substantian portion of that with a very
inefficient storage method. Lead acid batteries would be more efficient and
cheaper, and other methods better yet. Xcel needs a new CEO that has a
better understanding of how bad the hydrogen hoopla really is.
CM
| |
| HeyBub 2006-12-17, 5:25 pm |
| lkgeo1 wrote:
> NREL's hydrogen-wind plan
> Lab partners with Xcel to develop combo technology
> STORY TOOLS
> Email this story | Print
>
> The ground-breaking technology will use wind power to separate
> hydrogen from water and store that hydrogen in special containers so
> it can be used later to generate electricity.
This is similar to California's solution. They installed giant pumps that
ran at night to pump water back UP to the resevoirs so it would be available
to run hydro-electric generators during periods of higher demand the next
day.
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| Eeyore 2006-12-17, 8:25 pm |
|
HeyBub wrote:
> lkgeo1 wrote:
>
> This is similar to California's solution. They installed giant pumps that
> ran at night to pump water back UP to the resevoirs so it would be available
> to run hydro-electric generators during periods of higher demand the next
> day.
Pumped storage as you describe is easily 4 or 5 times more efficient than using
hydrogen and has far lower capital costs.
Graham
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