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powering the third world
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|
|
| Hi All,
I was reading about MIT's idea of creating a PC for the third
world http://laptop.media.mit.edu and its use of a wind up crank to
power for its PC.
It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of
operating"
I would think this would be very generous calculations and there should
be easier way for the worlds poor to get power when an area/region is
not on a grid or the people cant afford a utility bill. Would 19th
century technology be a better way to go
ie: steam powering a dynamo (Your child's bicycle light).
Both these technologies would be quite old and not under any patent
rights anymore so it should be relatively cheap/easy to manufacture
while being simple enough to run and maintain.
Would it be possible to create a system, where a mum's in the 3rd
world, could siphon her wood stove wok's or pot's excess stream and
pass into a tiny triple expansion steam engine to generate power for
such a mobile device.
Steam generators seem to have gone out of fashion, as I cant find many
on the web
eg: http://users.olis.net.au/strathsteam
Is there reason this type of system wouldn't be feasible?
Im probably watching too much of the discovery channel, but I love to
hear you ideas/input,
Regards,
Slyi
BTW: Has anyone had any experience with web/email over Ham radio for
remote areas
Eg: http://www.nsrc.org/wireless/HF-radio.html
| |
|
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"slyi" <adrianca@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137777979.699585.97350@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hi All,
> I was reading about MIT's idea of creating a PC for the third
> world http://laptop.media.mit.edu and its use of a wind up crank to
> power for its PC.
> It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of
> operating"
>
> I would think this would be very generous calculations and there should
> be easier way for the worlds poor to get power when an area/region is
> not on a grid or the people cant afford a utility bill. Would 19th
> century technology be a better way to go
> ie: steam powering a dynamo (Your child's bicycle light).
>
> Both these technologies would be quite old and not under any patent
> rights anymore so it should be relatively cheap/easy to manufacture
> while being simple enough to run and maintain.
>
> Would it be possible to create a system, where a mum's in the 3rd
> world, could siphon her wood stove wok's or pot's excess stream and
> pass into a tiny triple expansion steam engine to generate power for
> such a mobile device.
>
> Steam generators seem to have gone out of fashion, as I cant find many
> on the web
> eg: http://users.olis.net.au/strathsteam
>
> Is there reason this type of system wouldn't be feasible?
>
> Im probably watching too much of the discovery channel, but I love to
> hear you ideas/input,
>
> Regards,
>
> Slyi
3rd world and triple pass steam. And your getting that technology to the
third world?????
Power is a wonder thing. What are they going to use it for? Laptops?
Most of the production steam generators near my home are only double pass.
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-01-21, 7:21 am |
| slyi wrote:
> Hi All,
> I was reading about MIT's idea of creating a PC for the third
> world http://laptop.media.mit.edu and its use of a wind up crank to
> power for its PC.
> It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of
> operating"
>
> I would think this would be very generous calculations and there should
> be easier way for the worlds poor to get power when an area/region is
> not on a grid or the people cant afford a utility bill. Would 19th
> century technology be a better way to go
> ie: steam powering a dynamo (Your child's bicycle light).
>
> Both these technologies would be quite old and not under any patent
> rights anymore so it should be relatively cheap/easy to manufacture
> while being simple enough to run and maintain.
>
> Would it be possible to create a system, where a mum's in the 3rd
> world, could siphon her wood stove wok's or pot's excess stream and
> pass into a tiny triple expansion steam engine to generate power for
> such a mobile device.
>
> Steam generators seem to have gone out of fashion, as I cant find many
> on the web
> eg: http://users.olis.net.au/strathsteam
>
> Is there reason this type of system wouldn't be feasible?
>
> Im probably watching too much of the discovery channel, but I love to
> hear you ideas/input,
>
> Regards,
>
> Slyi
>
> BTW: Has anyone had any experience with web/email over Ham radio for
> remote areas
> Eg: http://www.nsrc.org/wireless/HF-radio.html
I would think solar and hand crank would be cheaper.
But more to the point, the supply of PCs will lag behind want for a
long time yet. So it makes more sense to go for the lowest hanging
fruit, ie places where there is already electrickery.
BTW, what would a low power pc use, 30w? If so, that 10:1 hand crank
would need an output of 300w, so an input of 400w... fairly hard going
for 10 minutes of use.
A thermopile might make more sense than steam. Low voltage ones can be
diyed with copper and nichrome wire.
NT
| |
|
|
|
| Hi meow,
Sorry i have absolulty no experience in this areana and im
just curious of windup about windup praticality's for such a high
powered decive.
So what your saying it be more ecomonical to put give out the PC's to
poor urban area's first and for the remote areas have a more scaled up
eletricity generation at the central high school where the PC would be
used rather than at each and every home.
BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan and would be difficult to
maintain for the untrained local populas, blacksmiths/carpenters in the
field. A thermophile may well be easier to maintain.
regards,
slyi
| |
| William P.N. Smith 2006-01-21, 10:21 am |
| "slyi" <adrianca@gmail.com> wrote:
>BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan
Not at all, their lifespan is measured in decades, very probably
longer than the computer they'd be powering. However, the expense of
solar cells would break the budget of a $100 laptop...
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2006-01-21, 1:21 pm |
| slyi wrote:
> Sorry i have absolulty no experience in this areana and im
> just curious of windup about windup praticality's for such a high
> powered decive.
The computer they were proposing is more like a PDA than a laptop
so it's power requirements are more likely to be one Watt or less
rather than 30 to 80 watts. It's not a high powered device so hand
cranking becomes possible though a foot powered generator would
likely be more practical.
> So what your saying it be more ecomonical to put give out the PC's to
> poor urban area's first and for the remote areas have a more scaled up
> eletricity generation at the central high school where the PC would be
> used rather than at each and every home.
It's more practical to get electricity and communications to
these schools, homes and towns first and then get them computers
rather than the other way around.
> BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan and would be difficult to
> maintain for the untrained local populas, blacksmiths/carpenters in the
> field. A thermophile may well be easier to maintain.
Solar panels don't require maintenance and last decades, perhaps
even centuries.
Anthony
| |
| Mr Wizzard 2006-01-21, 11:21 pm |
| > It states "1 minute of cranking gives enough power for 10 minutes of
> operating"
>
Its no good - its only for people who type REALLY fast;
Microsoft Operating system takes 9 minutes to boot, and
this leaves you only one minute to type and use the thing.
| |
| Solar Flare 2006-01-22, 2:21 am |
| XP powers up between 6 seconds and 20 seconds depending
on where you left off.
"Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote in message
news:IaCdnWfAjs2SaU_eRVn-sw@comcast.com...
for 10 minutes of[color=darkred]
>
> Its no good - its only for people who type REALLY
fast;
> Microsoft Operating system takes 9 minutes to boot,
and
> this leaves you only one minute to type and use the
thing.
>
>
| |
| Mr Wizzard 2006-01-22, 1:21 pm |
|
"Solar Flare" <sfl@hutmail.notvalid> wrote in message
news:4eudndSFCZWzgE7eRVn-iA@golden.net...
> XP powers up between 6 seconds and 20 seconds depending
> on where you left off.
Ah, I didn't know this.
>
> "Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote in message
> news:IaCdnWfAjs2SaU_eRVn-sw@comcast.com...
> for 10 minutes of
> fast;
> and
> thing.
>
>
| |
| Mr Wizzard 2006-01-22, 3:21 pm |
|
"Anthony Matonak" <anthonym40@nothing.like.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:IdOdnW-T9bIM-E_eRVn-ig@comcast.com...
> It's more practical to get electricity and communications to
> these schools, homes and towns first and then get them computers
> rather than the other way around.
Thank you!. Computers are probably the LAST thing
on the list. Electricity, communications, health care, food,
law enforcement, textiles, transportation etc., first.
| |
| William P.N. Smith 2006-01-22, 8:21 pm |
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"Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
>Thank you!. Computers are probably the LAST thing
>on the list.
One of the advantages touted for the wind-up $100 laptop was that it
could provide lighting in homes without power. 8*)
| |
| Mr Wizzard 2006-01-23, 3:21 am |
|
"William P.N. Smith" <news2006a@compusmiths.com> wrote in message
news:fb68t1l6lpirp49pq098nbmpbf0722q7ob@4ax.com...
> "Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
>
> One of the advantages touted for the wind-up $100 laptop was that it
> could provide lighting in homes without power. 8*)
haH, now there ya go. Not something you hear every day.
Course glow sticks might be cheaper. Or hows bout them
shake up flashlights ?
| |
| William P.N. Smith 2006-01-23, 9:21 am |
| "Mr Wizzard" <wiz@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
>"William P.N. Smith" <news2006a@compusmiths.com> wrote:
[color=darkred]
>haH, now there ya go. Not something you hear every day.
>Course glow sticks might be cheaper. Or hows bout them
>shake up flashlights ?
Or the generator, battery, and backlight from the $100 computer. 8*)
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-01-23, 12:21 pm |
| Hi
Many folks wrote:
>So what your saying it be more ecomonical to put give out the PC's to
>poor urban area's first and for the remote areas have a more scaled up
>eletricity generation at the central high school where the PC would be
>used rather than at each and every home.
I think that would make more sense, though its not precisely what I'd
propose. Why buy a $100 laptop when you could get used western PCs for
less, and plug it in where there's mains already. It does more and
costs less.
>BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan and would be difficult to
>maintain for the untrained local populas, blacksmiths/carpenters in the
>field. A thermophile may well be easier to maintain.
Solar panels dont normally need maintenance, but do have lifetime
limits. Theyre quite long but not indefinite, and repair isnt really an
option. So if solar pv were installed today (at vast expense) there
would likely be little of that infrastructure remaining in 50 years
time. High cost means a long time to equip a country, so a nationwide
electricity infrastructure can not realistically be built up this way.
I read in 2005 a survey (I forget the exact details) of small solar
implementations in South Africa found that after 5 years something like
25% of the systems were abandoned due to failure and inability to
afford repair, and IIRC about 50% were not working as well they should.
So IRL the mean time to failure is not so great.
Solar thermopiles OTOH will carry on indefinitely, given occasional
very simple and very cheap repair. Theyre also extremely low cost to
install. I'm talking here about piles made from copper and nichrome
wire, not high price commercial peltier type units. Install cost is
critical in the 3rd world. Also when installtion is underfunded and
thus slow, an infrastructure should be chosen that will accumulate over
time, rather than one where the whole lot will be gone and need
replacing every so often. Put in 100,000 thermopile generators per
year, and after 50 years you've got nearly 2 million power units
running. Do this with solar pv and you'll have little left by then, and
there'll be no accumulation of infrastructure.
Abandonment of systems primarily comes down to cost. High cost PV is
prone to theft and vandalism, and replacement is simply not affordable.
Thermopiles are not such an attractive target for theft, can be easily
repaired after vandalism, and can be replaced entirely at an affordable
price.
>However, the expense of
>solar cells would break the budget of a $100 laptop...
Solar pv is a very expensive way to generate electricity, yet the west
seems to think its the solution for people in poverty. Odd.
>The computer they were proposing is more like a PDA than a laptop
>so it's power requirements are more likely to be one Watt or less
>rather than 30 to 80 watts. It's not a high powered device so hand
>cranking becomes possible though a foot powered generator would
>likely be more practical.
Right, that makes more sense. I would think a solar thermopile would be
well suited to such an app, and more appropriate tech than pedal power.
Cheaper, easier, and doesnt drain human energy, which is a valuable
commodity often overlooked by rich people with no such life pressures.
The materials cost of a 10w solar thermopile would be under 10p (20
cents US). It would need a voltage convertor, but again total cost
would come in at well under that of a pv panel. Also some convertors
can be made from scrap parts, so would be by some. (This infrastructure
addition could not happen with pv.) And since all the component parts
can be salvaged or made locally, and people can make money with
computers, there would soon be an industry in thermopile manufacture
and repair.
>XP powers up between 6 seconds and 20 seconds depending
>on where you left off.
I dont think it would ever be based on windows. MS wont even give
hospitals free use of software, they surely wont grant it to a whole
nation. Linux seems the logical contender, possibly one of the small
low RAM packages, or more likely a custom distro for a non-standard
machine. Non standard means added extra software development costs of
course.
[color=darkred]
>Thank you!. Computers are probably the LAST thing
>on the list. Electricity, communications, health care, food,
>law enforcement, textiles, transportation etc., first.
All these things come from computers. Computers enable people by giving
them knowledge and power, and its lack of those things that are why the
basics still arent there. Realise that many poor have no access to
media of any kind, none whatever. So how are they going to learn? Today
they dont. How are they going to access global trade, as one can on the
net? Today they dont. Although a computer isnt food, computers do
generate economic growth and considerable improvement in standards of
living. A few examples:
With access to a computer, one can make money doing google
'researching', entering taxes, and many other ways. This is serious
income for people with little.
With a computer one can learn how to make mud buildings that last
centuries instead of decades, or how to make sunbaked bricks.
With a computer one can learn how to make contraceptives, learn the
various medical techniques that cost close to nothing, use educational
software, learn how to turn inedible ogranic scraps into worm meat.,
learn how to improve food growing techniques to maximise yield.
With computer access one can learn how to make a solar cooker, and no
longer need to go out into the woods and get raped. Not depleting all
that plant matter means more fertility in the long run, which means
more food production.
With a computer one can learn how to fabricate items out of available
resources, and how to make their design as efficient as possible.
With a computer one can gain some political power
With a computer one can learn and learn and learn, and thus gain
opportunities to transform life in many ways. Information is one of the
ways to get out of poverty, to enable people to improve their lives and
those of their fellows.
NT
| |
|
| On 23 Jan 2006 07:53:21 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>The materials cost of a 10w solar thermopile would be under 10p (20
>cents US). It would need a voltage convertor, but again total cost
>would come in at well under that of a pv panel.
Nick, I liked your idea of towing a ship to some un powered remote
country and allowing it to turn to ferric chloride ( a source of iron
to increase photosynthesis from the sea) whilst it provided
electricity. I wondered how the electrical output compared with the
thermal input of the original smelter. My (employed) work generates
about 3kg/day of worn ground engaging steel parts, as it takes too
long to collect a decent load for the scrap man and if I lived on the
coast I would gladly reduce it to ferric chloride and derive power
from it.
Now I did some figures for a cheap thermopile, to power a fan for a
small 3rd world cook stove. I figured it needed to be something the
local blacksmith could make from scrap material, I plumped for nickel
iron junctions and the device to form the bottom of a cook pot, as the
whole heat flux has to pass through the junctions and is ~1%
conversion to electricity. If it is the bottom of a pot then at least
the cold side goes on to boil some water.
Material Seebeck Coeff. *
Iron_ 19 micro Volts/deg C @ 0C
Nickel -15
Assuming this is somewhere near linear in the range 0 to 400C:
So if the water in the pot is the cold sink and boiling and we have a
flame of 800C but the boundary layer halves what the thermo couples
see then we have a delta t of 300C to play with. If my interpretation
is correct we should have 34micro Volts times 300 output per junction,
we are looking for 1.25V , suggesting 123 couples or 246 junctions,
fiddly.
AJH
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-24, 11:21 pm |
| slyi wrote:
> BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan and would be difficult to
> maintain for the untrained local populas, blacksmiths/carpenters in the
> field. A thermophile may well be easier to maintain.
>
> regards,
>
> slyi
>
solar panels have no maintenance and have 30+ year life spans. they re
as easy to hookup as a light bulb or a battery.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2006-01-24, 11:21 pm |
| Mr Wizzard wrote:
>
>
> Its no good - its only for people who type REALLY fast;
> Microsoft Operating system takes 9 minutes to boot, and
> this leaves you only one minute to type and use the thing.
>
>
so crank it again. And get a new computer, mine takes 2 minutes to boot.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Nick Hull 2006-01-25, 10:21 am |
| In article <43d6e81d_1@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
> solar panels have no maintenance and have 30+ year life spans. they re
> as easy to hookup as a light bulb or a battery.
No maintainance as long as there are no rocks around and no jealous
neighbors. Why do you think the 3rd world is so poor?
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
| |
| Derek Broughton 2006-01-25, 10:21 am |
| slyi wrote:
> BTW doesnt solor panels limited lifespan
yes. They're only guaranteed 20-25 years.
> and would be difficult to
> maintain for the untrained local populas, blacksmiths/carpenters in the
definitely not. They either work or they don't - there's no maintenance
> field. A thermophile may well be easier to maintain.
What's a thermophile?
--
derek
| |
| Derek Broughton 2006-01-25, 10:21 am |
| Steve Spence wrote:
> Mr Wizzard wrote:
>
> so crank it again. And get a new computer, mine takes 2 minutes to boot.
It's not usually so much the computer as all the stuff you've got set to
start up at the same time. If your computer supports hibernation, never
shut it down, just hibernate it. My XP desktop starts up in about 30
seconds (to a log-in prompt - I always log off before hibernating - it
takes another minute to log in through the domain). My linux laptop, a
slower beast but running many more services, starts up in 90 seconds.
--
derek
| |
| Derek Broughton 2006-01-25, 12:21 pm |
| Nick Hull wrote:
> In article <43d6e81d_1@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
> Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
> No maintainance as long as there are no rocks around and no jealous
> neighbors. Why do you think the 3rd world is so poor?
>
Interesting non-sequitor - the correct answer being "because the 1st world
has been raping and pillaging for so long".
--
derek
| |
|
| On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:25:17 -0400, Derek Broughton
<news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>What's a thermophile?
Basically a load of thermocouples joined in series to produce a decent
voltage.
When you heat a metal electrons move, if it's just one metal an
equilibrium forms and the flow stops, if you have two metals as (best
as far apart in the electro chemical series as possible) with one
junction cold and one hot then electrons flow from one metal to the
other. The problem is the power produced is a small percentage of the
heat flux from the hot to the cold junction. Semi conductors fair
better and there are some devices claiming 8% conversion but limited
to 200C at the hot end.
AJH
| |
| Derek Broughton 2006-01-25, 4:21 pm |
| AJH wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:25:17 -0400, Derek Broughton
> <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Basically a load of thermocouples joined in series to produce a decent
> voltage.
Ah. I think he meant thermopile. I hadn't heard either term, but google
suggests "thermophile" is biological :-)
>
> When you heat a metal electrons move, if it's just one metal an
> equilibrium forms and the flow stops, if you have two metals as (best
> as far apart in the electro chemical series as possible) with one
> junction cold and one hot then electrons flow from one metal to the
> other. The problem is the power produced is a small percentage of the
> heat flux from the hot to the cold junction. Semi conductors fair
> better and there are some devices claiming 8% conversion but limited
> to 200C at the hot end.
I have heard something about this technology, but I can't see it being
essentially either simpler or more durable than PV - it's pretty much the
same concept in different frequencies.
--
derek
| |
|
| On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:20:50 -0400, Derek Broughton
<news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>AJH wrote:
>
>
>Ah. I think he meant thermopile. I hadn't heard either term, but google
>suggests "thermophile" is biological :-)
Sorry I was reading too fast and missed his typo.
>I have heard something about this technology, but I can't see it being
>essentially either simpler or more durable than PV - it's pretty much the
>same concept in different frequencies.
Yes I agree, probably less fragile though.
AJH
| |
|
|
| Derek Broughton 2006-01-26, 11:21 am |
| Steve Spence wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>
> A heat lover?
>
Yeah, I understand latin and greek roots well enough to have figured that
out for myself, and googling told me that that was exactly what it was, so
I figured he must have meant something else :-)
--
derek
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-01-27, 6:21 pm |
| Derek Broughton wrote:
> AJH wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> I have heard something about this technology, but I can't see it being
> essentially either simpler or more durable than PV - it's pretty much the
> same concept in different frequencies.
> --
> derek
Maybe youre thinking of semiconductor thermopiles, which are a
different beast. Wire thermopiles are nothing more than pieces of
copper and nichrome wire crimped together, supported, and sitting in
the middle of a solar reflector. Totally different to PV.
NT
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-01-27, 6:21 pm |
| Steve Spence wrote:
> slyi wrote:
>
>
> solar panels have no maintenance and have 30+ year life spans. they re
> as easy to hookup as a light bulb or a battery.
But theres nothing easy about hooking up something you cant afford.
PV-ing a nation would cost a fortune.
NT
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-01-27, 6:21 pm |
| AJH wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2006 07:53:21 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
>
> Nick, I liked your idea of towing a ship to some un powered remote
> country and allowing it to turn to ferric chloride ( a source of iron
> to increase photosynthesis from the sea) whilst it provided
> electricity. I wondered how the electrical output compared with the
> thermal input of the original smelter. My (employed) work generates
> about 3kg/day of worn ground engaging steel parts, as it takes too
> long to collect a decent load for the scrap man and if I lived on the
> coast I would gladly reduce it to ferric chloride and derive power
> from it.
Battery power comes from corrosion of the metal, so the ship in water
wouldnt last well. Its financially inefficient method, unless you have
a source of metal that you cant get anything for. For you it might run.
> Now I did some figures for a cheap thermopile, to power a fan for a
> small 3rd world cook stove. I figured it needed to be something the
> local blacksmith could make from scrap material, I plumped for nickel
> iron junctions and the device to form the bottom of a cook pot, as the
> whole heat flux has to pass through the junctions and is ~1%
> conversion to electricity. If it is the bottom of a pot then at least
> the cold side goes on to boil some water.
>
> Material Seebeck Coeff. *
> Iron 19 micro Volts/deg C @ 0C
> Nickel -15
>
> Assuming this is somewhere near linear in the range 0 to 400C:
>
> So if the water in the pot is the cold sink and boiling and we have a
> flame of 800C but the boundary layer halves what the thermo couples
> see then we have a delta t of 300C to play with. If my interpretation
> is correct we should have 34micro Volts times 300 output per junction,
> we are looking for 1.25V , suggesting 123 couples or 246 junctions,
> fiddly.
>
> AJH
Why do you need 1.25v though? 0.1v could be transformed into whatever
V_out you like using a transformer and vibrator. When youre dealing
with 0.1v max, water is more or less an insulator.
Heat powered thermopile gens have been made, the famous example being
the russian 12v paraffin generator. A bit less well known is a pakistan
designed candle driven wire thermopile. A bigger solar version of that
was what I had in mind.
NT
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2006-01-28, 4:21 pm |
| In article <1138397595.272744.179150@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
meow2222@care2.com wrote:
> Heat powered thermopile gens have been made, the famous example being
> the russian 12v paraffin generator. A bit less well known is a pakistan
> designed candle driven wire thermopile. A bigger solar version of that
> was what I had in mind.
>
>
> NT
Just a note here....I own a Global ThermoElectric Propane fired Generator
that does 240Watts output, using aprox. 1 USG/Day. It isn't especially
efficent for power production, but in a cogen situation, it has its
advantages. I use the Cold Air side of the pile to heat the WellHouse
that has my 500USG Domestic Water Tank in a Highlky Insulated room.
The power provided, is used to keep a 1200Amphour bank of L16's
charged. Up here in the Frozen North, having running water in the winter
does tend to keep the womenfolk happier, and the extra power is nice
in the PowerBalance for the Inverters.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| Harry Chickpea 2006-01-28, 4:21 pm |
| Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>Nick Hull wrote:
>
>Interesting non-sequitor - the correct answer being "because the 1st world
>has been raping and pillaging for so long".
A more accurate and less PC answer would be that local gangs and thugs
and corrupt local politicians have been raping and pillaging for so
long. Haiti is a prime example of a third world country where PC
solutions don't stand a chance.
I do like the idea of hooking a solar panel output directly to a light
bulb. :^ During the day, it would help people see, and at night they
would be able to get some rest.
| |
|
| On 27 Jan 2006 13:33:15 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
>Battery power comes from corrosion of the metal, so the ship in water
>wouldnt last well. Its financially inefficient method, unless you have
>a source of metal that you cant get anything for. For you it might run.
I understand this, I was looking on it as idle conjecture in the
absence of figures that showed the electrical output compared with the
thermal cost of reducing the ore.
>
>Why do you need 1.25v though? 0.1v could be transformed into whatever
>V_out you like using a transformer and vibrator. When youre dealing
>with 0.1v max, water is more or less an insulator.
I was considering making use of existing battery powered fans, I've
not seen any practical examples of a vibrating reed switch stepping up
voltage through a transformer.
>
>Heat powered thermopile gens have been made, the famous example being
>the russian 12v paraffin generator. A bit less well known is a pakistan
>designed candle driven wire thermopile. A bigger solar version of that
>was what I had in mind.
Bruce has posted that he uses such a device, on the surface the
figures he posted suggested a conversion efficiency in the teens. I
have yet to see a practical model using metal-metal junctions and
making use of the waste heat. I am aware of several commercially
available semi conductor ones.
I have similarly see stirling powered fans for mounting on a stove top
to distribute the heat which make more sense.
My quest was for a simple device to be used in conjunction with a cook
stove to both increase its efficacy and maybe generate enough surplus
for charging a small battery for IT use. I had concluded the
thermopile using metal to metal junctions was too difficult, I wish to
be proved wrong.
AJH
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-01-29, 11:21 am |
| AJH wrote:
> On 27 Jan 2006 13:33:15 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
> My quest was for a simple device to be used in conjunction with a cook
> stove to both increase its efficacy and maybe generate enough surplus
> for charging a small battery for IT use. I had concluded the
> thermopile using metal to metal junctions was too difficult, I wish to
> be proved wrong.
Lets give it a go.
>
> I understand this, I was looking on it as idle conjecture in the
> absence of figures that showed the electrical output compared with the
> thermal cost of reducing the ore.
ISTR doing some quick calcs on the possibility of using scrap to
generate power, and although the material quantities made sense if
youve got scrap to get rid of, there is labour involved in running the
thing. Its certainly very simple to try it though, all you need to get
going is some basic salt cells and a 12v invertor. Salt cells just need
buckets, salt and charcoal.
>
> I was considering making use of existing battery powered fans, I've
> not seen any practical examples of a vibrating reed switch stepping up
> voltage through a transformer.
This was the standard way to run valves on batteries in the 30s and
40s. Google phrases like 'battery eliminator' or 'vibrator power pack'
or 'car radio vibrator supply.' There are of course other ways to do
it, such as a motorised switch, but the vibrator is probably one of the
best techs for such low Vs.
>
> Bruce has posted that he uses such a device,
> on the surface the
> figures he posted suggested a conversion efficiency in the teens.
I think he was talking about commercial semiconductor thermopiles,
which are a somewhat diffrent animal. Commericial units youre talking
3%, homebrews more like 1%. Although very low, 10 watts for a 1m device
costing 10p isnt bad, and does have its uses.
They also can produce power after dark with a solar heat store, so have
the potential to be used without battery packs.
NT
| |
| Too_Many_Tools 2006-01-30, 9:21 pm |
| "Maybe youre thinking of semiconductor thermopiles, which are a
different beast. Wire thermopiles are nothing more than pieces of
copper and nichrome wire crimped together, supported, and sitting in
the middle of a solar reflector. Totally different to PV. "
Does anyone have some links to homebuilt thermopiles that one could use
an emergency power supply?
TMT
| |
| andre_54005@yahoo.com 2006-01-31, 10:21 am |
|
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> "Maybe youre thinking of semiconductor thermopiles, which are a
> different beast. Wire thermopiles are nothing more than pieces of
> copper and nichrome wire crimped together, supported, and sitting in
> the middle of a solar reflector. Totally different to PV. "
>
> Does anyone have some links to homebuilt thermopiles that one could use
> an emergency power supply?
>
> TMT
Not homebuilt but this page has some info on some older units.
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSE...rmoelectric.htm
Should be enough there to get started on building your own.
_____________
Andre' B.
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-02-02, 10:21 am |
| andre_54005@yahoo.com wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
[color=darkred]
> Not homebuilt but this page has some info on some older units.
> http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSE...rmoelectric.htm
>
> Should be enough there to get started on building your own.
nice page, ty
NT
| |
|
| On 2 Feb 2006 05:45:00 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>andre_54005@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>nice page, ty
At the bottom it shows a commercially available thermopile used to
flame detect in a gas boiler and hold a gas solenoid valve open. The
author calculates 55 junctions.
Too expensive to buy as an experiment but I wonder if a heating
engineer would come across these in obsolete boilers.
I would quite like to experiment with some of these in series. They
seem to be available in US for ~USD50 but not listed here in UK.
AJH
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-02-03, 9:21 am |
| AJH wrote:
> On 2 Feb 2006 05:45:00 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
[color=darkred]
use[color=darkred]
ric.htm[color=darkred]
>
> At the bottom it shows a commercially available thermopile used to
> flame detect in a gas boiler and hold a gas solenoid valve open. The
> author calculates 55 junctions.
>
> Too expensive to buy as an experiment but I wonder if a heating
> engineer would come across these in obsolete boilers.
>
> I would quite like to experiment with some of these in series. They
> seem to be available in US for ~USD50 but not listed here in UK.
>
> AJH
Toolstation.com sells them for =A32.19. Theyre used in all modern
boilers. Google 'thermocouple boiler.'
If the cold end can be heatsunk, they should produce a fair bit more
than 0.75v a piece. 0.75v is @ 700/400C, so if we cool the cold end to
100C, we'd get apx 1.5v each. Then a 4.5v psu with 3 piles would cost
=A36.57. What the i_out is I dont know. I hope that 0.75v is working V,
not no load voltage. If the latter, the working v will be half that at
max power output, ie cost doubled.
A single pile could drive a small germanium invertor, or even a
mechanical invertor, if its power output is enough for the app. Theres
also a fair bit of silicon that will run at below 1.5v these days.
Add a 1m^2 reflector and youve got a solar cell. Low output, low
efficiency, and very low cost. Add heat storage and you can generate in
the evening from solar heat, eliminating the cost of batteries for some
apps.
NT
| |
| Too_Many_Tools 2006-02-03, 2:21 pm |
| Good page...anyone else have any pointers to homebuilding thermopiles?
TMT
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-02-03, 6:21 pm |
| Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> Good page...anyone else have any pointers to homebuilding thermopiles?
>
> TMT
I think that page pretty much covers it, except that it doesnt mention
how inefficient they are iirc.
Nor does it mention the pakistani candle thermopile, which I cant draw
in ascii art. One candle in the middle, 1% of which is a very low
output, earpiece radio maybe. Now crimp together lengths of copper and
nichrome wire like this:
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
then wrap this round the candle flame so all the hot junctions get
fire, the cold ones arranged round the outside. Material cost a few
pence, output enough to run small apps and trickle charge batteries.
TPs are standard kit on oil rigs, the hot oil powers remote monitoring
instruments.
Toolstation code 64067.
NT
| |
|
| On 3 Feb 2006 04:57:25 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>AJH wrote:
>
>
>Toolstation.com sells them for £2.19. Theyre used in all modern
>boilers. Google 'thermocouple boiler.'
This is a different beast, the output is only 0.022V so even if the
current were the same you'd need over 30 of them in series to have the
same power.
None of the sites mention the current so it's a little difficult to
see what power they will produce, even if the cold side were reduced
to 100C.
AJH
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-02-04, 11:21 pm |
| AJH wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2006 04:57:25 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
re thermopiles
[color=darkred]
>
> This is a different beast, the output is only 0.022V so even if the
> current were the same you'd need over 30 of them in series to have the
> same power.
Where do you get that figure from? I would very much expect they put
out much more than that, 22mV is really not a practical figure to power
a gas solenoid.
> None of the sites mention the current so it's a little difficult to
> see what power they will produce, even if the cold side were reduced
> to 100C.
>
> AJH
Its easy if you test one.  I suspect it wont be much, as a candle
flame alone would get them half hot, and 1-3% of that isnt a lot.
NT
| |
|
| On 4 Feb 2006 18:17:45 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>AJH wrote:
>
>re thermopiles
>
>
>Where do you get that figure from?
A search on "thermocouple boiler", a couple of practical results show
where UK d-i-y people have measured the output. Honeywell rate their
European ones at 30mV. This seems to be because they are for mains
connected boilers where the motherboard can amplify the signal for the
solenoid. The US thermopile that was on the url posted earlier is
designed for use in standalone gas boilers (calor, propane etc) so
their output has to control the solenoid valve by itself.
>I would very much expect they put
>out much more than that, 22mV is really not a practical figure to power
>a gas solenoid.
>
>
>
>Its easy if you test one.
I take it you test one by plotting its output current and volts whilst
varying the load, this gets you the internal resistance. Then you know
the ideal load at the rated 0.75V. This would determine how many pairs
would be needed to replace a typical, say AA, cell.
Trouble is as I said these seem US market specific so it's unlikely
I'll find any in scrap boilers this side of the pond.
>I suspect it wont be much, as a candle
>flame alone would get them half hot, and 1-3% of that isnt a lot.
Actually a candle flame is quite hot, 700C is easy, the power is
something else.
AJH
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-02-06, 3:21 pm |
| AJH wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2006 18:17:45 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
>
> A search on "thermocouple boiler", a couple of practical results show
> where UK d-i-y people have measured the output. Honeywell rate their
> European ones at 30mV. This seems to be because they are for mains
> connected boilers where the motherboard can amplify the signal for the
> solenoid.
oh 
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> I take it you test one by plotting its output current and volts whilst
> varying the load, this gets you the internal resistance.
Just measure V_out off load, ie with a multimeter, and i_shorted, ie
with a multimeter. Max power output will be at half this current and
half this votlage.
> Then you know
> the ideal load at the rated 0.75V. This would determine how many pairs
> would be needed to replace a typical, say AA, cell.
You cant literally replace AA cells with them, because the output rises
to double V offload.
> Trouble is as I said these seem US market specific so it's unlikely
> I'll find any in scrap boilers this side of the pond.
do we not have non mains boilers anywhere? I'd contact pile and boiler
makers, and ask if they have any thermopiles with more V_out if you
want some.
Or maybe a standard one would, after transforming up, run a LED with
enough brightness to compensate for the amount of light reduction of
the candle flame
NT
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2006-02-06, 3:21 pm |
| AJH wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2006 18:17:45 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
>
> A search on "thermocouple boiler", a couple of practical results show
> where UK d-i-y people have measured the output. Honeywell rate their
> European ones at 30mV. This seems to be because they are for mains
> connected boilers where the motherboard can amplify the signal for the
> solenoid.
oh
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> I take it you test one by plotting its output current and volts whilst
> varying the load, this gets you the internal resistance.
Just measure V_out off load, ie with a multimeter, and i_shorted, ie
with a multimeter. Max power output will be at half this current and
half this votlage.
> Then you know
> the ideal load at the rated 0.75V. This would determine how many pairs
> would be needed to replace a typical, say AA, cell.
You cant literally replace AA cells with them, because the output rises
to double V offload.
> Trouble is as I said these seem US market specific so it's unlikely
> I'll find any in scrap boilers this side of the pond.
do we not have non mains boilers anywhere? I'd contact pile and boiler
makers, and ask if they have any thermopiles with more V_out if you
want some.
Or maybe a standard one would, after transforming up, run a LED with
enough brightness to compensate for the amount of light reduction of
the candle flame
NT
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2006-02-07, 8:21 pm |
| On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 18:22:32 +0000, AJH <sylva@despammed.com> wrote:
>On 4 Feb 2006 18:17:45 -0800, meow2222@care2.com wrote:
>
>
>A search on "thermocouple boiler", a couple of practical results show
>where UK d-i-y people have measured the output. Honeywell rate their
>European ones at 30mV. This seems to be because they are for mains
>connected boilers where the motherboard can amplify the signal for the
>solenoid. The US thermopile that was on the url posted earlier is
>designed for use in standalone gas boilers (calor, propane etc) so
>their output has to control the solenoid valve by itself.
>
and they AREQ milivolt systems.
>
>
>I take it you test one by plotting its output current and volts whilst
>varying the load, this gets you the internal resistance. Then you know
>the ideal load at the rated 0.75V. This would determine how many pairs
>would be needed to replace a typical, say AA, cell.
>
>Trouble is as I said these seem US market specific so it's unlikely
>I'll find any in scrap boilers this side of the pond.
>
>
>Actually a candle flame is quite hot, 700C is easy, the power is
>something else.
>
>AJH
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