Alternative Power sources - Solar Power Breakthrough!

Author

Solar Power Breakthrough!

Freedom Fighter

2006-02-17, 6:21 pm

One more embarassment for America, which would rather spend its resources on
military aggression and world domination than on the solution to global
warming and the betterment of humanity!
-------------------------------------
South African Solar Research
Eclipses Rest Of The World
by Willem Steenkamp, February 11 2006

In a scientific breakthrough that has stunned the world, a team of South
African scientists has developed a revolutionary new, highly efficient solar
power technology that will enable homes to obtain all their electricity from
the sun.

This means high electricity bills and frequent power failures could soon be
a thing of the past.

The unique South African-developed solar panels will make it possible for
houses to become completely self-sufficient for energy supplies.

The panels are able to generate enough energy to run stoves, geysers,
lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the mod-cons of the modern
house.

The new technology should be available in South Africa within a year and
through a special converter, energy can be fed directly into the wiring of
existing houses. New powerful storage units will allow energy storage to
meet demands even in winter. The panels are so efficient they can operate
through a Cape Town winter. While direct sunlight is ideal for high-energy
generation, other daytime light also generates energy via the panels.

A team of scientists led by university of Johannesburg (formerly Rand
Afrikaans University) scientist Professor Vivian Alberts achieved the
breakthrough after 10 years of research. The South African technology has
now been patented across the world.

One of the world leaders in solar energy, German company IFE Solar Systems,
has invested more than $500-million in the South African invention and is
set to manufacture 500,000 of the panels before the end of the year at a new
plant in Germany.

Production will start next month and the factory will run 24 hours a day,
producing more than 1,000 panels a day to meet expected demand.

Another large German solar company is negotiating with the South African
inventors for rights to the technology, while a South African consortium of
businesses are keen to build local factories.

The new, highly efficient and cheap alloy solar panel is much more efficient
than the costly old silicone solar panels.

International experts have admitted that nothing else comes close to the
effectiveness of the South African invention.

The South African solar panels consist of a thin layer of a unique metal
alloy that converts light into energy. The photo-responsive alloy can
operate on virtually all flexible surfaces, which means it could in future
find a host of other applications.

Alberts said the new panels are approximately five microns thick (a human
hair is 20 microns thick) while the older silicon panels are 350 microns
thick. the cost of the South African technology is a fraction of the less
effective silicone solar panels.

Alberts said in Switzerland it was already compulsory for all new houses to
include solar technology to lessen energy demands on national grids.

"And that was the older, less effective technology. With our hours of
sunlight, we will on average generate twice as much energy than, for
instance, European countries."

While South African scientists developed and patented the new,
super-effective alloy solar panels, other companies have developed new,
super-efficient storage batteries and special converters to change the
energy into the power source of a particular country (220 volts in South
Africa).

Eskom spokesperson Carin de Villiers said any new power supply that lessened
the load on Eskom was to be welcomed.

She said Eskom was also doing its own research on solar energy.

"In fact, we are currently investigating building what will probably be the
largest solar power plant, in the Northern Cape - a 100-megawatt facility."

She added that Eskom was also researching wind and fuel-cell technology as
alternative energy sources.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/ceezt

Windsun

2006-02-17, 6:21 pm

Yeah, sure.. I believe it.

Only seen these kind of blurbs about 500 times in the past 25years.

And still waiting....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Freedom Fighter" <liberty@once.net> wrote in message
news:ywrJf.415946$qk4.302623@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> One more embarassment for America, which would rather spend its resources
> on military aggression and world domination than on the solution to global
> warming and the betterment of humanity!
> -------------------------------------

wmbjk

2006-02-17, 7:21 pm

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:05:32 GMT, "Windsun" <wind-sun@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Yeah, sure.. I believe it.
>
>Only seen these kind of blurbs about 500 times in the past 25years.
>
>And still waiting....

That reminds me. The Sunballs were supposed to start shipping this
month. Has anyone reading taken delivery yet? ;-)

Wayne

SQLit

2006-02-17, 7:21 pm

"Freedom Fighter" <liberty@once.net> wrote in message
news:ywrJf.415946$qk4.302623@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> One more embarassment for America, which would rather spend its resources
on
> military aggression and world domination than on the solution to global
> warming and the betterment of humanity!
> -------------------------------------
> South African Solar Research
> Eclipses Rest Of The World
> by Willem Steenkamp, February 11 2006
>
> In a scientific breakthrough that has stunned the world, a team of South
> African scientists has developed a revolutionary new, highly efficient
solar
> power technology that will enable homes to obtain all their electricity
from
> the sun.
>
> This means high electricity bills and frequent power failures could soon
be
> a thing of the past.
>
> The unique South African-developed solar panels will make it possible for
> houses to become completely self-sufficient for energy supplies.
>
> The panels are able to generate enough energy to run stoves, geysers,
> lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the mod-cons of the modern
> house.

Lets see South Africa and no mention of a/c. Starting motors even small
ones on solar can be a real problem.
http://www.aps.com/my_community/STA...ault.html?seq=1
This is one of the premier solar sites in the world, just a few miles away
from my home. These guys are using every technology that there is. A lot of
it can not handle the Arizona sun for very many years.

I noticed in your post you fail to mention the cost of this "new
technology". Or should I hold my breath until it is available.

Solar Flare

2006-02-17, 8:21 pm

Probably much cheaper than "silicone" panels for
sure...LOL

"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:jFsJf.47$6M5.6529@news.uswest.net...
>
> "Freedom Fighter" <liberty@once.net> wrote in message
>
news:ywrJf.415946$qk4.302623@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
rather spend its resources[color=darkred]
> on
the solution to global[color=darkred]
world, a team of South[color=darkred]
new, highly efficient[color=darkred]
> solar
all their electricity[color=darkred]
> from
power failures could soon[color=darkred]
> be
will make it possible for[color=darkred]
energy supplies.[color=darkred]
run stoves, geysers,[color=darkred]
mod-cons of the modern[color=darkred]
>
>
> Lets see South Africa and no mention of a/c.
Starting motors even small
> ones on solar can be a real problem.
>
http://www.aps.com/my_community/STA...ault.html?seq=1
> This is one of the premier solar sites in the world,
just a few miles away
> from my home. These guys are using every technology
that there is. A lot of
> it can not handle the Arizona sun for very many
years.
>
> I noticed in your post you fail to mention the cost
of this "new
> technology". Or should I hold my breath until it is
available.
>
>

Roy. Just Roy.

2006-02-17, 8:21 pm

> That reminds me. The Sunballs were supposed to start shipping this
month. Has anyone reading taken delivery yet? ;-)

Well, production was supposed to be funded by the Minister of Finance
in Nigeria - unfortunately his untimely death has left the sum of $500
million US trapped in a Swiss bank without a means to transfer the
money to South Africa. All they need is your bank account number to
route the money through, and they can start funding the new technology
immediately ...

/Roy

TRecupero

2006-02-17, 8:21 pm

What's that smell? Anybody else smell cows, or bulls for that matter?

"Freedom Fighter" <liberty@once.net> wrote in message
news:ywrJf.415946$qk4.302623@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> One more embarassment for America, which would rather spend its resources
on
> military aggression and world domination than on the solution to global
> warming and the betterment of humanity!
> -------------------------------------
> South African Solar Research
> Eclipses Rest Of The World
> by Willem Steenkamp, February 11 2006
>
> In a scientific breakthrough that has stunned the world, a team of South
> African scientists has developed a revolutionary new, highly efficient
solar
> power technology that will enable homes to obtain all their electricity
from
> the sun.
>
> This means high electricity bills and frequent power failures could soon
be
> a thing of the past.
>
> The unique South African-developed solar panels will make it possible for
> houses to become completely self-sufficient for energy supplies.
>
> The panels are able to generate enough energy to run stoves, geysers,
> lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the mod-cons of the modern
> house.
>
> The new technology should be available in South Africa within a year and
> through a special converter, energy can be fed directly into the wiring of
> existing houses. New powerful storage units will allow energy storage to
> meet demands even in winter. The panels are so efficient they can operate
> through a Cape Town winter. While direct sunlight is ideal for high-energy
> generation, other daytime light also generates energy via the panels.
>
> A team of scientists led by university of Johannesburg (formerly Rand
> Afrikaans University) scientist Professor Vivian Alberts achieved the
> breakthrough after 10 years of research. The South African technology has
> now been patented across the world.
>
> One of the world leaders in solar energy, German company IFE Solar
Systems,
> has invested more than $500-million in the South African invention and is
> set to manufacture 500,000 of the panels before the end of the year at a
new
> plant in Germany.
>
> Production will start next month and the factory will run 24 hours a day,
> producing more than 1,000 panels a day to meet expected demand.
>
> Another large German solar company is negotiating with the South African
> inventors for rights to the technology, while a South African consortium
of
> businesses are keen to build local factories.
>
> The new, highly efficient and cheap alloy solar panel is much more
efficient
> than the costly old silicone solar panels.
>
> International experts have admitted that nothing else comes close to the
> effectiveness of the South African invention.
>
> The South African solar panels consist of a thin layer of a unique metal
> alloy that converts light into energy. The photo-responsive alloy can
> operate on virtually all flexible surfaces, which means it could in future
> find a host of other applications.
>
> Alberts said the new panels are approximately five microns thick (a human
> hair is 20 microns thick) while the older silicon panels are 350 microns
> thick. the cost of the South African technology is a fraction of the less
> effective silicone solar panels.
>
> Alberts said in Switzerland it was already compulsory for all new houses
to
> include solar technology to lessen energy demands on national grids.
>
> "And that was the older, less effective technology. With our hours of
> sunlight, we will on average generate twice as much energy than, for
> instance, European countries."
>
> While South African scientists developed and patented the new,
> super-effective alloy solar panels, other companies have developed new,
> super-efficient storage batteries and special converters to change the
> energy into the power source of a particular country (220 volts in South
> Africa).
>
> Eskom spokesperson Carin de Villiers said any new power supply that
lessened
> the load on Eskom was to be welcomed.
>
> She said Eskom was also doing its own research on solar energy.
>
> "In fact, we are currently investigating building what will probably be
the
> largest solar power plant, in the Northern Cape - a 100-megawatt
facility."
>
> She added that Eskom was also researching wind and fuel-cell technology as
> alternative energy sources.
>
> Source: http://tinyurl.com/ceezt
>
>

TRecupero

2006-02-17, 8:21 pm

Anybody else smell cows, or bulls? Yup, they developed this between hanging
a gasoline soaked tire around the neck of some poor hardworking bastard and
asking the UN for more money.

"Freedom Fighter" <liberty@once.net> wrote in message
news:ywrJf.415946$qk4.302623@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> One more embarassment for America, which would rather spend its resources
on
> military aggression and world domination than on the solution to global
> warming and the betterment of humanity!
> -------------------------------------
> South African Solar Research
> Eclipses Rest Of The World
> by Willem Steenkamp, February 11 2006
>
> In a scientific breakthrough that has stunned the world, a team of South
> African scientists has developed a revolutionary new, highly efficient
solar
> power technology that will enable homes to obtain all their electricity
from
> the sun.
>
> This means high electricity bills and frequent power failures could soon
be
> a thing of the past.
>
> The unique South African-developed solar panels will make it possible for
> houses to become completely self-sufficient for energy supplies.
>
> The panels are able to generate enough energy to run stoves, geysers,
> lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the mod-cons of the modern
> house.
>
> The new technology should be available in South Africa within a year and
> through a special converter, energy can be fed directly into the wiring of
> existing houses. New powerful storage units will allow energy storage to
> meet demands even in winter. The panels are so efficient they can operate
> through a Cape Town winter. While direct sunlight is ideal for high-energy
> generation, other daytime light also generates energy via the panels.
>
> A team of scientists led by university of Johannesburg (formerly Rand
> Afrikaans University) scientist Professor Vivian Alberts achieved the
> breakthrough after 10 years of research. The South African technology has
> now been patented across the world.
>
> One of the world leaders in solar energy, German company IFE Solar
Systems,
> has invested more than $500-million in the South African invention and is
> set to manufacture 500,000 of the panels before the end of the year at a
new
> plant in Germany.
>
> Production will start next month and the factory will run 24 hours a day,
> producing more than 1,000 panels a day to meet expected demand.
>
> Another large German solar company is negotiating with the South African
> inventors for rights to the technology, while a South African consortium
of
> businesses are keen to build local factories.
>
> The new, highly efficient and cheap alloy solar panel is much more
efficient
> than the costly old silicone solar panels.
>
> International experts have admitted that nothing else comes close to the
> effectiveness of the South African invention.
>
> The South African solar panels consist of a thin layer of a unique metal
> alloy that converts light into energy. The photo-responsive alloy can
> operate on virtually all flexible surfaces, which means it could in future
> find a host of other applications.
>
> Alberts said the new panels are approximately five microns thick (a human
> hair is 20 microns thick) while the older silicon panels are 350 microns
> thick. the cost of the South African technology is a fraction of the less
> effective silicone solar panels.
>
> Alberts said in Switzerland it was already compulsory for all new houses
to
> include solar technology to lessen energy demands on national grids.
>
> "And that was the older, less effective technology. With our hours of
> sunlight, we will on average generate twice as much energy than, for
> instance, European countries."
>
> While South African scientists developed and patented the new,
> super-effective alloy solar panels, other companies have developed new,
> super-efficient storage batteries and special converters to change the
> energy into the power source of a particular country (220 volts in South
> Africa).
>
> Eskom spokesperson Carin de Villiers said any new power supply that
lessened
> the load on Eskom was to be welcomed.
>
> She said Eskom was also doing its own research on solar energy.
>
> "In fact, we are currently investigating building what will probably be
the
> largest solar power plant, in the Northern Cape - a 100-megawatt
facility."
>
> She added that Eskom was also researching wind and fuel-cell technology as
> alternative energy sources.
>
> Source: http://tinyurl.com/ceezt
>
>

Gordon Richmond

2006-02-17, 11:21 pm

So why don't they use PV-grade silicone in the breast implants of
Hollywood starlets? The beaches there are loaded with them. Could make
a big dent in California's chronic power shortages.

Gordon Richmond

meow2222@care2.com

2006-02-17, 11:21 pm

SQLit wrote:

> Lets see South Africa and no mention of a/c.

not much a/c out there, the average consumption per household is 50w.

> I noticed in your post you fail to mention the cost of this "new
> technology". Or should I hold my breath until it is available.

nor its efficiency, kind of a key omission. Nor what the new battery
technology is, where it came from, or anything else about it.

But more oddly, also no address of where to send first purchase money
or investment money.

NT

Orval Fairbairn

2006-02-18, 4:21 pm

In article <1140218647.143708.170710@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Roy. Just Roy." <delduck3@yahoo.com> wrote:

> month. Has anyone reading taken delivery yet? ;-)
>
> Well, production was supposed to be funded by the Minister of Finance
> in Nigeria - unfortunately his untimely death has left the sum of $500
> million US trapped in a Swiss bank without a means to transfer the
> money to South Africa. All they need is your bank account number to
> route the money through, and they can start funding the new technology
> immediately ...
>
> /Roy

There is a strike in the balonium mines, and the unobtanium supply has
too many impurities.

2006-02-18, 4:21 pm

In article
<ywrJf.415946$qk4.302623@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Freedom Fighter" <liberty@once.net> wrote:

> The panels are able to generate enough energy to run stoves, geysers,
> lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the mod-cons of the modern
> house.

Oh yea, I really like the "Geysers" thing...just what every one needs
in their Solar Powered backyard....a Solar Powered geyser.......

Me maybe SolarFart should invest.....it could make
him millions...

Malc

2006-02-18, 4:21 pm

"Roy. Just Roy." <delduck3@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140218647.143708.170710@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> month. Has anyone reading taken delivery yet? ;-)
>
> Well, production was supposed to be funded by the Minister of Finance
> in Nigeria - unfortunately his untimely death has left the sum of $500
> million US trapped in a Swiss bank without a means to transfer the
> money to South Africa. All they need is your bank account number to
> route the money through, and they can start funding the new technology
> immediately ...
>
Bugger, I knew there was something I had to do!

--
Malc

"Ah, that did it. Spare brain in action, I'm ready to go again!"

wmbjk

2006-02-18, 5:21 pm

On 17 Feb 2006 15:24:07 -0800, "Roy. Just Roy." <delduck3@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>month. Has anyone reading taken delivery yet? ;-)
>
>Well, production was supposed to be funded by the Minister of Finance
>in Nigeria - unfortunately his untimely death has left the sum of $500
>million US trapped in a Swiss bank without a means to transfer the
>money to South Africa. All they need is your bank account number to
>route the money through, and they can start funding the new technology
>immediately ...
>
>/Roy

I just read up a little on Sunball's progress. No Nigerians in view,
but the sphere shape appears to have been abandoned
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball/message/861, and the new plan is
to make the units cube-shaped instead. Apparently there's sufficient
slack in the production schedule to reinvent the product without
causing any delivery delays. Oddly enough though, there hasn't been
time to overhaul the web site. IMO, prospective purchasers should hold
out for the SunDodecahedron. :-)

Wayne

Derek Broughton

2006-02-18, 6:21 pm

Me wrote:

> In article
> <ywrJf.415946$qk4.302623@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Freedom Fighter" <liberty@once.net> wrote:
>
>
> Oh yea, I really like the "Geysers" thing...just what every one needs
> in their Solar Powered backyard....a Solar Powered geyser.......

No, that part is genuine. Google "Electric geyser". I _think_ it's just a
water heater. You really need to expand your horizons, Flare.
--
derek

SQLit

2006-02-18, 7:21 pm

<meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1140230134.573921.186810@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> SQLit wrote:
>
>
> not much a/c out there, the average consumption per household is 50w.

The comment was directed to the OP's concept of
"The panels are able to generate enough energy to run stoves, geysers,
lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the mod-cons of the modern
house."

I have seen first hand APS's attempt at starting motors with solar.
Either there is a big bank of batteries or they use a gasoline engine
producing power.
The office for the APS site has 5 ton a/c compressor. They use electric
start NG generator for starting and then they switch over to the solar
panels for run. I was particularly interested in the controls that make
this work. Controls which no one on their own could afford for a home
installation.

I am still waiting for the lithium bromide plant south of here to come on
line. They claim with 10 acres of mirrors they can generate 10MW of power.
They talk and talk, nothing built on the site as of yet.

>
> nor its efficiency, kind of a key omission. Nor what the new battery
> technology is, where it came from, or anything else about it.
>
> But more oddly, also no address of where to send first purchase money
> or investment money.
>
>
> NT
>

Duane C. Johnson

2006-02-18, 10:21 pm

Hi Me;

Me <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote:

> Oh yea, I really like the "Geysers" thing...
> just what every one needs in their Solar Powered
> backyard.... a Solar Powered geyser.......

Ah, a Geyser is British speak for a hot water heater.

> Me maybe SolarFart should invest.....it could make
> him millions...

--
Home of the $35 Solar Tracker Receiver
http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm [*]
Powered by \ \ \ //|
Thermonuclear Solar Energy from the Sun / |
Energy (the SUN) \ \ \ / / |
Red Rock Energy \ \ / / |
Duane C. Johnson Designer \ \ / \ / |
1825 Florence St Heliostat,Control,& Mounts |
White Bear Lake, Minnesota === \ / \ |
USA 55110-3364 === \ |
(651)426-4766 use Courier New Font \ |
redrok@redrok.com (my email: address) \ |
http://www.redrok.com (Web site) ===

Roberta Jones

2006-02-19, 1:21 am

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:48:14 GMT, "Freedom Fighter" <liberty@once.net>
wrote:

>One more embarassment for America, which would rather spend its resources on
>military aggression and world domination than on the solution to global
>warming and the betterment of humanity!
>-------------------------------------
>South African Solar Research
>Eclipses Rest Of The World

How much crack did you inhale before posting this gem.

Now tell us all about how your mother actually invented the cheese
grater as a cure for hemmoroids.

You liberal idiots are fun to laugh at.

Solar Flare

2006-02-19, 2:21 pm

OP did say "run" and not mentions "start" LOL

This is why I have purchased a soft-start well pump for
mine.

"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:ziNJf.34$Vr6.10531@news.uswest.net...
>
> <meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
>
news:1140230134.573921.186810@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
household is 50w.[color=darkred]
>
> The comment was directed to the OP's concept of
> "The panels are able to generate enough energy to run
stoves, geysers,
> lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the
mod-cons of the modern
> house."
>
> I have seen first hand APS's attempt at starting
motors with solar.
> Either there is a big bank of batteries or they use a
gasoline engine
> producing power.
> The office for the APS site has 5 ton a/c compressor.
They use electric
> start NG generator for starting and then they switch
over to the solar
> panels for run. I was particularly interested in the
controls that make
> this work. Controls which no one on their own could
afford for a home
> installation.
>
>
> I am still waiting for the lithium bromide plant
south of here to come on
> line. They claim with 10 acres of mirrors they can
generate 10MW of power.
> They talk and talk, nothing built on the site as of
yet.
>
cost of this "new[color=darkred]
is available.[color=darkred]
what the new battery[color=darkred]
about it.[color=darkred]
first purchase money[color=darkred]
>
>

Solar Flare

2006-02-19, 2:21 pm

I hope you are not impying that Me and me (LOL) are the
same person.

"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in
message news:1lgkc3-r0d.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
> Me wrote:
>
<ywrJf.415946$qk4.302623@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att
..net>,[color=darkred]
run stoves, geysers,[color=darkred]
mod-cons of the modern[color=darkred]
what every one needs[color=darkred]
geyser.......[color=darkred]
>
> No, that part is genuine. Google "Electric geyser".
I _think_ it's just a
> water heater. You really need to expand your
horizons, Flare.
> --
> derek

meow2222@care2.com

2006-02-19, 3:21 pm

SQLit wrote:
> <meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
> news:1140230134.573921.186810@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> The comment was directed to the OP's concept of
> "The panels are able to generate enough energy to run stoves, geysers,
> lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the mod-cons of the modern
> house."

yes, as you said... and then I said that a/c was not part of the
mod-cons of the modern house for almost all the population... then you
said what you said again...

NT

meow2222@care2.com

2006-02-19, 3:21 pm

meow2222@care2.com

2006-02-19, 3:21 pm

Derek Broughton

2006-02-19, 4:21 pm

Solar Flare wrote:

> I hope you are not impying that Me and me (LOL) are the
> same person.
>

Sorry, about that. I noticed I'd misattributed the post after someone else
responded and hoped nobody else would notice :-)
--
derek

Solar Flare

2006-02-19, 6:21 pm

You can say that again.

<meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1140374217.551623.89410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> SQLit wrote:
news:1140230134.573921.186810@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
per household is 50w.[color=darkred]
run stoves, geysers,[color=darkred]
mod-cons of the modern[color=darkred]
>
> yes, as you said... and then I said that a/c was not
part of the
> mod-cons of the modern house for almost all the
population... then you
> said what you said again...
>
>
> NT
>

Solar Flare

2006-02-19, 6:21 pm

whewwww !

"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in
message news:kosmc3-35p.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
the[color=darkred]
>
> Sorry, about that. I noticed I'd misattributed the
post after someone else
> responded and hoped nobody else would notice :-)
> --
> derek

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