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Re: GFX vs home brew
|
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| AstickfortheMULE 2006-04-14, 11:21 am |
| BAAMMMMM! Kick it up a notch.
| |
| Robert Gammon 2006-04-14, 12:21 pm |
| AstickfortheMULE wrote:
> BAAMMMMM! Kick it up a notch.
>
>
Nick uses a LONG, SLOW moving body of water to extract heat. So in many
ways, it resembles a air conditioning condenser coil. Both exchange
heat relatively slowly and rely on a LONG path to effect the heat
exchange. Ok, Nick's will work, 300 ft of tubing surrounding a large
tube holding the greywater will transfer significant heat from greywater
to the potable water.
Nick's heat exchanger can be installed in almost any orientation, but
horizontal seems to be his desire. His heat exchanger will need to be
cleaned out periodically of gunk, especially if toilets drain thru the
same heat exchanger. He argues that his will extract more heat than the
GFX, and that may be true, but he will have a much larger unit (300 feet
of 1 inch tubing is more than 6 feet in length when stacked as a single
layer around a larger pipe that holds the greywater)
The beauty of the GFX, is that it is metal, it can be stacked or daisy
chained with pumps to extract even more heat in a smaller space. The
illustrations on the web site show various parallel installations, but I
wonder about the option of taking two of the 48" units, placing them
side by side, and pumping effluent from the first to the top of the
second before the wastewater flows on to the city sewer/septic tank.
Think I'll write the GFX team about this idea.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2006-04-14, 1:21 pm |
| Robert Gammon <rgammon51@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Nick uses a LONG, SLOW moving body of water to extract heat. So in many
>ways, it resembles a air conditioning condenser coil.
It also resembles a chair, if you wrap enough cotton gauze around both :-)
>... His heat exchanger will need to be cleaned out periodically of gunk,
>especially if toilets drain thru the same heat exchanger.
Not a good idea. It wouldn't make a good wheelchair either.
>He argues that his will extract more heat than the GFX, and that may be true
Physics clearly tells me so. She seems to lie to you. How fickle.
>... he will have a much larger unit (300 feet of 1 inch tubing is more than
>6 feet in length when stacked as a single layer around a larger pipe that
>holds the greywater)
You seem confused. In this condition, many people read more carefully.
Some even stop talking and listen :-)
The 1" pipe would be in 3 100' pieces inside a 100' x 4" black plastic
corrugated drainpipe which can be in 1) a 2' diameter x 6' tall coil or
2) a 7' OD x 2' ID x 4" tall flat spiral under a basement ceiling, which
uses less floorspace.
Nick
| |
| daestrom 2006-04-14, 1:21 pm |
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:e1og17$6d5@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Robert Gammon <rgammon51@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> It also resembles a chair, if you wrap enough cotton gauze around both :-)
>
>
> Not a good idea. It wouldn't make a good wheelchair either.
>
>
> Physics clearly tells me so. She seems to lie to you. How fickle.
>
Actually, mis-applied formulae from a text book seems to be what is talking
to you again Nick ;-)
If you run your same calculations with a simple flow rate of 2 gpm (a
typical shower flow), what do your 'physics' tell you?
The fact that the answer is much different than when you run your 50 gpd
flow rate numbers should prompt you to pause and 'thick harder'.
While I agree that 'batch' flows that do not fully purge your apparatus will
give you some improvements, we haven't seenn any of your 'numbers' for that.
Quoting ASHRAE formulae that are intended for continuous flow when you
*know* you won't have that sort of flow rate is a waste of everybody's time.
daestrom
| |
| dold@XReXXGFXXv.usenet.us.com 2006-04-14, 4:21 pm |
| In alt.solar.thermal Robert Gammon <rgammon51@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Nick's heat exchanger can be installed in almost any orientation, but
> horizontal seems to be his desire.
Horizontal is how all of my waste plumbing is arranged. I don't have any
place to put a vertical drop without adding a pump.
> His heat exchanger will need to be cleaned out periodically of gunk,
> especially if toilets drain thru the same heat exchanger.
I have never cleaned out the drains in this house.
> The beauty of the GFX, is that it is metal, it can be stacked or daisy
> chained with pumps to extract even more heat in a smaller space.
"stacked" implies a lot of vertical drop. Pumping requires energy.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
| |
| Derek Broughton 2006-04-14, 8:21 pm |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Robert Gammon <rgammon51@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> It also resembles a chair, if you wrap enough cotton gauze around both :-)
>
>
> Not a good idea. It wouldn't make a good wheelchair either.
No kidding. Somebody seems to need a definition of "greywater".
--
derek
| |
| Robert Gammon 2006-04-14, 11:21 pm |
| Derek Broughton wrote:
> nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
>
> No kidding. Somebody seems to need a definition of "greywater".
>
greywater == all water going down a drain EXCEPT water from Toilets
blackwater == all water from toilets
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2006-04-15, 2:21 am |
| daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>While I agree that 'batch' flows that do not fully purge your apparatus will
>give you some improvements, we haven't seenn any of your 'numbers' for that.
Here are some numbers for that. If 100' of 3 1" pipes (polyethylene, with
a 0.07" wall thickness) has 78.5 ft^2 of surface with U = 10 Btu/h-F-ft^2,
10' has 78.5 Btu/h-F...
20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater (Btu/F)
60 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 1000'simulate showers
70 FOR M=0 TO 359'simulate 10 min shower + 350 min rest
80 IF M>10 GOTO 170'rest vs shower
90 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up from below
100 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*CGREY)/(CFRESH+CGREY)'move greywater in at the top
110 FOR S=1 TO 8'pipe section (9<->fresh water in and greywater out)
120 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
130 TG(S)=(TG(S-1)*CFRESH+TG(S)*CGREY)/(CFRESH+CGREY)'move greywater down
140 NEXT S
150 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
160 TG(9)=(TG(8)*CFRESH+TG(9)*CGREY)/(CFRESH+CGREY)'move greywater down
170 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
180 HEATFLOW=(TG(S)-TF(S))*UPIPE/60'heatflow into fresh water (Btu)
190 TF(S)=TF(S)+HEATFLOW/CFRESH'new fresh temp (F)
200 TG(S)=TG(S)-HEATFLOW/CGREY'new grey temp (F)
210 NEXT S
220 NEXT M
230 NEXT SHOWER
240 FOR S=0 TO 9'results
250 PRINT S,TF(S),TG(S)
260 NEXT S
270 E=(TF(0)-55)/(100-55)'effectiveness
280 PRINT E
pipe fresh water greywater
section temp (F) temp (F)
0 93.32178 93.3218
1 90.556 90.55602
2 87.60851 87.60853
3 84.60492 84.60494
4 81.62819 81.62821
5 78.71178 78.71181
6 75.86447 75.8645
7 73.08838 73.0884
8 70.3852 70.38522
9 67.75679 67.75681
effectiveness
..8515951
The fresh and greywater temps are very close, about 6 hours after
a shower, since the pipe time constant is much shorter (less than
8 minutes.) These results wouldn't change much with only a half-hour
between showers. The effectiveness would be higher for shorter bursts.
Maybe it's worth adding 2 more $20 100' pieces of 1" pipe (altho that
would be a tight squeeze), or a handheld showerhead that only runs
when a button is pushed. Who sells them?
Nick
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2006-04-15, 3:21 am |
| daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Here are some numbers for that...
Oops. Fixing lines 100, 130, and 160 improves the effectiveness to 88%.
20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater (Btu/F)
60 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 1000'simulate showers
70 FOR M=0 TO 359'simulate 10 min shower + 350 min rest
80 IF M>10 GOTO 170'rest vs shower
90 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up
100 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in at the top
110 FOR S=1 TO 8'pipe section (9<->fresh water in and greywater out)
120 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
130 TG(S)=(TG(S-1)*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
140 NEXT S
150 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
160 TG(9)=(TG(8)*CFRESH+TG(9)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
170 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
180 HEATFLOW=(TG(S)-TF(S))*UPIPE/60'heatflow into fresh water (Btu)
190 TF(S)=TF(S)+HEATFLOW/CFRESH'new fresh temp (F)
200 TG(S)=TG(S)-HEATFLOW/CGREY'new grey temp (F)
210 NEXT S
220 NEXT M
230 NEXT SHOWER
240 FOR S=3 TO 9'results
250 PRINT 300+S;"'";S;TF(S),TG(S)
260 NEXT S
270 E=(TF(0)-55)/(100-55)
280 PRINT 410;"'";E
pipe fresh water greywater
section temp (F) temp (F)
0 94.53323 94.53326
1 92.54844 92.54847
2 90.32916 90.32919
3 87.93309 87.93311
4 85.42671 85.42674
5 82.85161 82.85163
6 80.22588 80.2259
7 77.55527 77.55529
8 74.8424 74.84241
9 72.08957 72.0896
effectiveness
..8785163
Nick
| |
| Robert Gammon 2006-04-15, 9:21 am |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Here are some numbers for that. If 100' of 3 1" pipes (polyethylene, with
> a 0.07" wall thickness) has 78.5 ft^2 of surface with U = 10 Btu/h-F-ft^2,
> 10' has 78.5 Btu/h-F...
>
>
[snip]
Question, How large a space does your heat exchanger occupy?
3 PE pipes inside a larger PE pipe is NOT very flexible. Bend radius
for this configuration is measured in feet.
It not very thick, to be sure, but to collapse this into a practical
shape, (100 linear feet of tubing in the rafters of a basement will NOT
fit in most houses), you'll need to bend this into a coil of say about 5
or 6 feet in diameter, several feet high. You quoted some figures for
the dimensions of the assembled unit, but now those dimensions as I
recall them don't make sense.
| |
| Robert Gammon 2006-04-15, 9:21 am |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Here are some numbers for that. If 100' of 3 1" pipes (polyethylene, with
> a 0.07" wall thickness) has 78.5 ft^2 of surface with U = 10 Btu/h-F-ft^2,
> 10' has 78.5 Btu/h-F...
>
>
[snip]
Question, How large a space does your heat exchanger occupy?
3 PE pipes inside a larger PE pipe is NOT very flexible. Bend radius
for this configuration is measured in feet.
It not very thick, to be sure, but to collapse this into a practical
shape, (100 linear feet of tubing in the rafters of a basement will NOT
fit in most houses), you'll need to bend this into a coil of say about 5
or 6 feet in diameter, several feet high. You quoted some figures for
the dimensions of the assembled unit, but now those dimensions as I
recall them don't make sense.
| |
| daestrom 2006-04-15, 1:21 pm |
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:e1q30i$sb6@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Oops. Fixing lines 100, 130, and 160 improves the effectiveness to 88%.
>
> 20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
> 30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
> 40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
> 50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater
> (Btu/F)
> 60 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 1000'simulate showers
> 70 FOR M=0 TO 359'simulate 10 min shower + 350 min rest
> 80 IF M>10 GOTO 170'rest vs shower
> 90 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up
> 100 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in at the
> top
> 110 FOR S=1 TO 8'pipe section (9<->fresh water in and greywater out)
> 120 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
> 130 TG(S)=(TG(S-1)*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
> 140 NEXT S
> 150 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
> 160 TG(9)=(TG(8)*CFRESH+TG(9)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
> 170 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
> 180 HEATFLOW=(TG(S)-TF(S))*UPIPE/60'heatflow into fresh water (Btu)
> 190 TF(S)=TF(S)+HEATFLOW/CFRESH'new fresh temp (F)
> 200 TG(S)=TG(S)-HEATFLOW/CGREY'new grey temp (F)
> 210 NEXT S
> 220 NEXT M
> 230 NEXT SHOWER
> 240 FOR S=3 TO 9'results
> 250 PRINT 300+S;"'";S;TF(S),TG(S)
> 260 NEXT S
> 270 E=(TF(0)-55)/(100-55)
> 280 PRINT 410;"'";E
>
Not bad, apparantly you've chosen a flow rate and section length so the time
step corresponds to exactly one section length.
Because the greywater drain cross-section is so much larger than the
freshwater, your Cmin/Cmax ratio ends up being about 0.24 (IIRC a 4-inch
pipe with three 1-inch pipes inside). So a high efficiency of 87% doesn't
really tell us how much energy we're saving. While your efficiency is 87%,
it looks like you're still putting (72-55)*1.25*8.33=177 BTU/minute down the
drain. Out of a total of 468.6 BTU/minute needed to heat 1.25 gpm from 55
to 100, that's nearly 38% of the heating.. Print out the data *during* the
last shower, not 350 minutes later. I'd like to see what the greywater
outlet temperature is while it's flowing. I think it's going to be a lot
cooler than 72, but not sure. Better yet, print out the freshwater and
greywater outlet temperatures *during* the ten time steps of the last
shower.
After all, it is the temperatures out *during* flow that matter. The
temperatures at the end of the stagnation period only tell us the initial
startup point for the next shower. How quickly they change *during* the
shower, and in what direction would be more telling.
After all, if the freshwater outlet during the shower really is at 94F, and
the greywater really leaves at 72F, then you don't have conservation of
energy (freshwater side picks up (94-55)*1.25*8.33 = 406 btu/min, while the
greywater side gives off (100-72)*1.25*8.33=291 btu/min). That's a clue
that something is wrong with these results.
daestrom
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2006-04-15, 3:21 pm |
| Robert Gammon <rgammon51@yahoo.com> wrote:
>has 78.5 ft^2 of surface with U = 10 Btu/h-F-ft^2, 10' has 78.5 Btu/h-F...
>
>Question, How large a space does your heat exchanger occupy?
Either 1) 2' diam x 6' tall, or 2) 7' OD x 2' ID x 4" tall.
>3 PE pipes inside a larger PE pipe is NOT very flexible. Bend radius
>for this configuration is measured in feet.
About 1'.
>It not very thick, to be sure, but to collapse this into a practical
>shape, (100 linear feet of tubing in the rafters of a basement will NOT
>fit in most houses)...
Nobody said it would, nitwit :-)
>... you'll need to bend this into a coil of say about 5 or 6 feet
>in diameter, several feet high.
Wrong again. The drainpipe is about 4.25" OD.
Nick
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2006-04-15, 5:21 pm |
| daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>I'd like to see what the greywater outlet temperature is while it's flowing.
How about the fresh water outlet temp? Line 100 below accumulates
the heat energy that needs to be added during the last shower...
20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater (Btu/F)
60 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 1000'simulate showers
70 FOR M=0 TO 359'simulate 10 min shower + 350 min rest
80 IF M>9 GOTO 200'rest vs shower
90 IF SHOWER <1000 GOTO 120
100 RHEAT=RHEAT+1.25*8.33*(100-TF(0))'reheat energy required
110 PRINT 300+M;"'";M,TF(0),RHEAT
120 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up
130 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in at the top
140 FOR S=1 TO 8'pipe section (9<->fresh water in and greywater out)
150 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
160 TG(S)=(TG(S-1)*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
170 NEXT S
180 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
190 TG(9)=(TG(8)*CFRESH+TG(9)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
200 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
210 HEATFLOW=(TG(S)-TF(S))*UPIPE/60'heatflow into fresh water (Btu)
220 TF(S)=TF(S)+HEATFLOW/CFRESH'new fresh temp (F)
230 TG(S)=TG(S)-HEATFLOW/CGREY'new grey temp (F)
240 NEXT S
250 NEXT M
260 NEXT SHOWER
280 SHOWERGY=1.25*10*8.33*(100-55)'total heat energy with no gwhx
290 PRINT RHEAT,SHOWERGY,1-RHEAT/SHOWERGY
time fresh cum reheat
(min) temp (F) (Btu)
0 94.56091 56.6345
1 92.93514 130.1973
2 91.38136 219.9389
3 89.96538 324.4244
4 88.72086 441.8685
5 87.6472 570.492
6 86.72784 708.6885
7 85.94302 855.0568
8 85.27464 1008.385
9 84.70704 1167.623
cum reheat shower effectiveness
(Btu) heat (Btu) (fraction)
1167.623 4685.625 .7508075
Nick
| |
| daestrom 2006-04-18, 6:21 pm |
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:e1rhfd$gkd@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> daestrom <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> How about the fresh water outlet temp? Line 100 below accumulates
> the heat energy that needs to be added during the last shower...
>
> 20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
> 30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
> 40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
> 50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater
> (Btu/F)
> 60 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 1000'simulate showers
> 70 FOR M=0 TO 359'simulate 10 min shower + 350 min rest
> 80 IF M>9 GOTO 200'rest vs shower
> 90 IF SHOWER <1000 GOTO 120
> 100 RHEAT=RHEAT+1.25*8.33*(100-TF(0))'reheat energy required
> 110 PRINT 300+M;"'";M,TF(0),RHEAT
> 120 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up
> 130 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in at the
> top
> 140 FOR S=1 TO 8'pipe section (9<->fresh water in and greywater out)
> 150 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
> 160 TG(S)=(TG(S-1)*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
> 170 NEXT S
> 180 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
> 190 TG(9)=(TG(8)*CFRESH+TG(9)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
> 200 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
> 210 HEATFLOW=(TG(S)-TF(S))*UPIPE/60'heatflow into fresh water (Btu)
> 220 TF(S)=TF(S)+HEATFLOW/CFRESH'new fresh temp (F)
> 230 TG(S)=TG(S)-HEATFLOW/CGREY'new grey temp (F)
> 240 NEXT S
> 250 NEXT M
> 260 NEXT SHOWER
> 280 SHOWERGY=1.25*10*8.33*(100-55)'total heat energy with no gwhx
> 290 PRINT RHEAT,SHOWERGY,1-RHEAT/SHOWERGY
>
> time fresh cum reheat
> (min) temp (F) (Btu)
>
> 0 94.56091 56.6345
> 1 92.93514 130.1973
> 2 91.38136 219.9389
> 3 89.96538 324.4244
> 4 88.72086 441.8685
> 5 87.6472 570.492
> 6 86.72784 708.6885
> 7 85.94302 855.0568
> 8 85.27464 1008.385
> 9 84.70704 1167.623
>
> cum reheat shower effectiveness
> (Btu) heat (Btu) (fraction)
>
> 1167.623 4685.625 .7508075
>
More like I expect. Your system's outlet temperature drops from the high of
94F the longer you run the shower. The fact that it's a 'batch' process
allows you to get better performance than the steady-state parameters would
allow.
But show the greywater too. As I said before, if the greywater is giving
off less energy than the freshwater is picking up, then something's broke.
I notice you chose to show the more optimistic of the two numbers. I'll bet
the greywater shows more energy going down the drain than physics would
allow if these numbers were accurate.
So then it's just a matter of adjusting gwhx versus shower time to keep
performance high. Too long a shower, or too short a gwhx and performance
drops.
How would two showers spaced fairly close together look? Looks like this
would support four, 10-minute showers a day, spaced 6 hours apart right now.
daestrom
| |
| daestrom 2006-04-18, 6:21 pm |
|
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nZb1g.5165$u27.4871@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
> news:e1rhfd$gkd@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
<snip>[color=darkred]
>
> More like I expect. Your system's outlet temperature drops from the high
> of 94F the longer you run the shower. The fact that it's a 'batch'
> process allows you to get better performance than the steady-state
> parameters would allow.
>
> But show the greywater too. As I said before, if the greywater is giving
> off less energy than the freshwater is picking up, then something's broke.
> I notice you chose to show the more optimistic of the two numbers. I'll
> bet the greywater shows more energy going down the drain than physics
> would allow if these numbers were accurate.
>
Oh, I see you had done this in another branch. I'll go there and see
"what's up"
daestrom
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