|
Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > April 2007 > Asking for Recommendations for New HVAC in a Row Home
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
Asking for Recommendations for New HVAC in a Row Home
|
|
|
|
Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home w/
stone/brick covered front porch. in the Baltimore, MD area (mid Atlantic).
w/ the front facing due south.. The walls are at least two courses of brick,
maybe more, ok replacement aluminum storm windows, it's got no accessible
attic, 8' 2" ceilings w/ electric baseboard heat.\ and window ac. I'm going
to upgrade the heating and AC. I'm getting the first floor gutted leaving
the plaster on the walls then framed w/ standard wood studs, then insulated
(what should I used for insulation?) into one room appx 16'' x 30. Some
months ago I posted a similar message in some the same news groups and
several posters recommended a system that includes a high efficiency heat
pump, well the contracotrs here are not sold on heat pumps I din't know if
they don't have experience w/ the new HPs. I included two estimates to
install a HVAC system. What do you think? How would you design the system
differently. BTW, electricity costs increase 50% in cost June 1st of this
year.
*************************************************************************************.
quote by a local licensed contractor:
Install one new Goodman 80% A.F.U.E., Model #GMS8/GDS8/GHS8 Multi Speed Gas
Furnace.
Install one new Goodman A-Coil, 13 seer.
Install one new Goodman High-Efficiency Condenser 2 1/2 ton, 13 seer.
Run complete new ductwork throughout 1st and 2nd floor to supply sufficient
outlets to each room on 1st and
2nd floor.
Run one new cold air return duct to 1st and 2nd floor.
Run all new copper refrigeration lines to Condenser.
Install all necessary registers and grilles.
Install one new heat/cool thermostat.
Additional: All wiring, patching, painting and boxing in of ductwork to be
done by others.
Warranty: 20 Years Manufacturers Warranty on Heat-Exchanger.
10 Years Manufacturers Warranty on All Parts. (Until June 30,
2007)
1 Year Warranty on Labor.
Cost: $8,400.00, $3,500.00 Down, $4,400.00 Due upon installing ductwork and
equipment, $500.00 Due upon start up.
________________________________________________________________________________
another quote from licensed Trane contractor. - hand written so I can't
paste it.
all duct work & returns, Trane XL 14; 2.5 Ton air conditioner, 14 SEER puron
unit; Trane XL 80 % efficient gas furnace 80,000 btu unit w/ coil &
programmable thermostat. same warranty on equipment.
$9,900.00
both units are 80% because they claim they can't vent properly an higher
efficiency units.
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%xiQh.3469$i93.2052@trnddc05...
> several posters recommended a system that includes a high efficiency heat
> pump, well the contracotrs here are not sold on heat pumps I din't know if
> they don't have experience w/ the new HPs.
> both units are 80% because they claim they can't vent properly an higher
> efficiency units.
By the two above comments...
You better KEEP LOOKING!!!!!!!!!
| |
|
| Mike wrote:
> Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home w/
> *************************************************************************************.
> quote by a local licensed contractor:
> Install one new Goodman 80% A.F.U.E., Model #GMS8/GDS8/GHS8 Multi Speed Gas
> Furnace.
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> another quote from licensed Trane contractor. - hand written so I can't
> paste it.
> unit; Trane XL 80 % efficient gas furnace 80,000 btu unit w/ coil &
Frankly, I think everything proposed is way too small for 11K sq ft.
| |
|
|
<kjpro @ mcse.ms> wrote in message
news:44fee$4611ba7e$943f6c44$16563@STARBAND.NET...
>
> "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:%xiQh.3469$i93.2052@trnddc05...
>
>
>
>
>
> By the two above comments...
>
> You better KEEP LOOKING!!!!!!!!!
it will help if you reply w/ specifics.
| |
|
|
"CJ" <?@rr.com> wrote in message news:4611BAD7.9000002@rr.com...
> Mike wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Frankly, I think everything proposed is way too small for 11K sq ft.
will you reply w/ specifics?
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-03, 3:25 am |
| Hi Mike,
I'm one of the guys who recommended a ductless heat pump and I'm
disappointed to hear the HVAC contractors you've contacted are
unfamiliar with this technology. I suggested a ductless system as a
way to avoid the hassle (and expense) of installing the ductwork
related to a conventional forced air system; if you are removing the
existing plaster walls and reframing then, obviously, one of the key
benefits of this approach is largely moot.
Since you are going the forced air route, you might consider a
conventional heat pump as one more option. Over the long haul, I
expect natural gas prices to significantly outpace electricity due to
tight market conditions and a growing reliance on expensive LNG
imports (largely from countries who don't exactly like you).
If I'm reading BGE's rate schedule correctly, it looks like your new
summer rate (after the 47 per cent increase) is 14.09 cents per kWh,
including transmission and distribution charges, and the combined
winter rate is 12.73 cents. A heat pump with a HSPF rating of 8.5
(i.e., seasonal COP of 2.5), would thus provide heat at just under 5.1
cents per kWh(e) and assuming similar SEER ratings, cooling costs
would be on par.
Currently, BGE charges $1.0243 per therm for natural gas and an
additional $0.2561 for distribution (combined cost: $1.28/therm). At
80 per cent AFUE, the cost of gas heat works out to be 5.46 cents per
kWh(e). That being the case, the operating cost of a mid-range heat
pump and a mid-efficiency gas furnace are pretty much equal but,
again, going forward, I expect electricity to be your least cost
option. You've already taken the big hit now that the cap on
electricity rates has been removed, and given the bulk of your
electricity is coal-fired and nuclear, rates should (hopefully) remain
relatively stable.
Good luck on whatever you decide.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:XgkQh.1916$F%1.221@trnddc01...
>
> <kjpro @ mcse.ms> wrote in message
> news:44fee$4611ba7e$943f6c44$16563@STARBAND.NET...
heat[color=darkred]
higher[color=darkred]
>
> it will help if you reply w/ specifics.
The contractors you have talked to DON'T know their own trade.
That specific enough?
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:xhkQh.1917$F%1.166@trnddc01...
>
> "CJ" <?@rr.com> wrote in message news:4611BAD7.9000002@rr.com...
****************************************************************************
*********.[color=darkred]
____________________________________________________________________________
____[color=darkred]
can't[color=darkred]
>
> will you reply w/ specifics?
Equipment is to small for a 11K sq ft home...
Is that hard to figure out?
| |
| ard[H20] 2007-04-03, 3:25 am |
| "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com>, wrote:
>
><kjpro @ mcse.ms> wrote in message
>news:44fee$4611ba7e$943f6c44$16563@STARBAND.NET...
>
>it will help if you reply w/ specifics.
>
Just _how_ are "specifics" going to help _you_ 'Mike'?
And, if your contractors are not sold on heat pumps then
you should not be sold on what they sell you.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-04-03, 3:25 am |
| Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>... Over the long haul, I expect natural gas prices to significantly
>outpace electricity due to>tight market conditions and a growing reliance
>on expensive LNG imports (largely from countries who don't exactly like you).
I would expect the opposite, since electricity is often made from natural gas,
which usually involves wasting 2/3 of its heating value.
Nick
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-03, 9:25 am |
| On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 21:22:23 -0500, <kjpro @ mcse.ms> wrote:
>
>"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:%xiQh.3469$i93.2052@trnddc05...
>
I agree with the contractors here. Baltimore is not a favorable
climate for heat pumping. Especially given the electric rate there.
[color=darkred]
>
>
Totally disagree. All that's needed is a flue booster fan. Maybe
$50-100 extra. The high efficiency units invariably contain induced
draft fans so the flue is forced and doesn't rely on convection. Only
on really long flue runs would a booster be needed.
Assuming there's no irrational code against it (who knows in that
area), wall exit flues can be used. This device looks like a little
white mushroom on the side of your wall that both exhausts the flue
gas and intakes fresh air. I used them for a multiple high efficiency
gas boiler changeout in PA in an apartment building I owned in the
early 80s. Loved 'em. I have pictures if you need 'em to refute any
flak you might get from the contractor.
[color=darkred]
>
>
>By the two above comments...
>
>You better KEEP LOOKING!!!!!!!!!
>
One last comment. I'm sure glad I live down here. That's about twice
the going rate here. I doubt either contractor is gouging - that just
reflects the extra cost of the overbearing amount of government y'all
tolerate. BTDT, glad to be back South again.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-03, 9:25 am |
| On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 04:05:38 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
<paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Hi Mike,
>
>I'm one of the guys who recommended a ductless heat pump and I'm
>disappointed to hear the HVAC contractors you've contacted are
>unfamiliar with this technology. I suggested a ductless system as a
>way to avoid the hassle (and expense) of installing the ductwork
>related to a conventional forced air system; if you are removing the
>existing plaster walls and reframing then, obviously, one of the key
>benefits of this approach is largely moot.
I still like ductless heat pumps and would go that route regardless if
an installer can be found that is remotely competitive.
>
>Currently, BGE charges $1.0243 per therm for natural gas and an
>additional $0.2561 for distribution (combined cost: $1.28/therm). At
>80 per cent AFUE, the cost of gas heat works out to be 5.46 cents per
>kWh(e). That being the case, the operating cost of a mid-range heat
>pump and a mid-efficiency gas furnace are pretty much equal but,
>again, going forward, I expect electricity to be your least cost
>option. You've already taken the big hit now that the cap on
>electricity rates has been removed, and given the bulk of your
>electricity is coal-fired and nuclear, rates should (hopefully) remain
>relatively stable.
That's a good analysis as far as it goes. But you forget that
Baltimore is too cold most of the winter for an air exchange heat pump
to work. He would therefore be back on resistance heat with a COP of
1.
I'm not as pessimistic about gas prices as you are. The root of the
price run-up is the installation of thousands of megawatts of gas
turbine and combined cycle plants that burn natural gas. This was a
crutch to ride out the worst of the econazi craziness. IT seems to me
that the worst of this is past, that most everyone except the crazies
themselves realize that "ban everything" (fossil and nuke plants,
transmission lines, substations, etc) hasn't worked very well.
The utilities, at least most of 'em if I can go by what the trade
press says, have realized that this crutch has been used about as much
as is practical. Streamlined licensing is enabling the construction
of new fossil plants and in the not too distant future, nukes. Once
those dams burst, the demand for NG will at first level off and then
decline. Gas turbine based plants are expensive to run and to
maintain so they'll be relegated back to where they belong - peaking
duty.
For the time being I'd hedge my bets with multiple heat sources. A
dual fuel NG/heat pump and AC unit would cover two sources of heat.
Either electric baseboard or 240 volt freestanding electric heaters
will cover the electric end if it's too cold for the heat pump and gas
is too high. Room electric heaters, effectively giving zone control,
is more efficient than central resistance heating.
I missed the 11k sq ft part. Yes, the contractors are proposing far
too little capacity. 80Kbtu is barely adequate for a 2000 sq ft house
in this temperate climate.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-03, 9:25 am |
| On 3 Apr 2007 02:47:00 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>I would expect the opposite, since electricity is often made from natural gas,
>which usually involves wasting 2/3 of its heating value.
Actually combined cycle stations where the exhaust of the gas turbine
feeds a boiler and runs a steam turbine have topped the 50% efficiency
mark. Seems like I saw 52% mentioned in one recent trade rag.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-04-03, 9:25 am |
| Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>Actually combined cycle stations where the exhaust of the gas turbine
>feeds a boiler and runs a steam turbine have topped the 50% efficiency
>mark. Seems like I saw 52% mentioned in one recent trade rag.
With 100 F dry radiators? I wonder how much is lost in transmission.
And is Baltimore really too cold for an air-source heat pump? NREL says
the coldest month is January, with a 31.8 F average temp and a 40.2 max
and 650 Btu/ft^2-day of sun on the ground and 1050 on a south wall.
Nick
| |
|
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:eust94$g16@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> I would expect the opposite, since electricity is often made from natural
> gas,
> which usually involves wasting 2/3 of its heating value.
>
> Nick
The local utility sold all of the gas fired plants and now they generate
electricity w/ only coal and nuclear.
OTOH, some providers keep gas fired generators around because they can claim
the cost of gas generators as their
cost basis to milk the public a little more.
| |
|
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:eutase$g2v@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>
> With 100 F dry radiators? I wonder how much is lost in transmission.
>
> And is Baltimore really too cold for an air-source heat pump? NREL says
> the coldest month is January, with a 31.8 F average temp and a 40.2 max
> and 650 Btu/ft^2-day of sun on the ground and 1050 on a south wall.
>
> Nick
This winter we had two straight weeks of temp in the low teens, below zero
and in the teens or twenties during the day.
| |
|
| Transmission losses cut that down.
On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 05:42:42 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>On 3 Apr 2007 02:47:00 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
>Actually combined cycle stations where the exhaust of the gas turbine
>feeds a boiler and runs a steam turbine have topped the 50% efficiency
>mark. Seems like I saw 52% mentioned in one recent trade rag.
>
>John
>---
>John De Armond
>See my website for my current email address
>http://www.neon-john.com
>Cleveland, Occupied TN
>All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
>Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-03, 9:25 am |
| Hi Nick,
On 3 Apr 2007 02:47:00 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>I would expect the opposite, since electricity is often made from natural gas,
>which usually involves wasting 2/3 of its heating value.
>
>Nick
Not sure I can agree with you on this one. According to EIA's latest
numbers, less than 10 per cent of America's utility generation is
natural gas driven (238,484 GWH versus a total of 2,554,050 GHW), a
good portion of which I imagine can be attributed to peakers. When
you total all sources, including combined heat and power (where,
obviously, the waste heat is put to good use) and independent power
producers, the final number climbs to 18.7 per cent.
Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electr...pa/epat1p1.html
I don't have a proper breakdown of BGE's fuel mix, but for its
corporate parent, Constellation Energy, it is as follows:
Nuclear -- 60.9%
Coal -- 34.6%
Natural Gas -- 0.2%
Oil -- 0.2%
Renewables -- 3.9%
Source:
http://www.bge.com/portal/site/cons...b60610025166a0/
I can't guarantee BGE's electricity rates will remain relatively
stable in years to come, nor can I say with all certainty that coal
and nuclear power will be less costly than domestic natural gas or LNG
imports from the Middle East. But given that domestic natural gas
production peaked back in 1973 and is continuing to fall year after
year, and that America will be competing for LNG on the world market
and that the cost of LNG will be tightly coupled to that of oil, I
know where I'd be placing my bets.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%xiQh.3469$i93.2052@trnddc05...
>
> Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home...
<snip>
Do you actually mean 11,100 sq. ft.... or would that be 1,100 sq. ft.?
-zero
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-03, 1:25 pm |
| Hi John,
On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 05:40:39 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 04:05:38 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
><paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>I still like ductless heat pumps and would go that route regardless if
>an installer can be found that is remotely competitive.
It would be my first choice as well. I have an oil-fired boiler and
last year, I used a total of 828 litres of heating oil (220 gallons)
for heat and domestic hot water production, over half of which can be
attributed to the latter. The rest of my space heating needs were met
by a small ductless heat pump that operates at less than half the cost
of oil (older, 2,500 sq. ft. Cape Cod).
>That's a good analysis as far as it goes. But you forget that
>Baltimore is too cold most of the winter for an air exchange heat pump
>to work. He would therefore be back on resistance heat with a COP of
>1.
I live in a much colder climate (7,800 versus 4,700 HDD) and my
seasonal COP last year was 2.45. Granted, I worked hard to achieve
that number by making sure the unit ran continuously during the
warmest times of the day and by using the thermal mass of my home to
minimize its runtime as temperatures fell. Under normal operation,
its COP would be in the range of 2.1 (based on a HSPF rating of 7.2,
zones IV and V). A heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 or higher would
perform notably better, especially at the lower end of the temperature
band when additional heat is required.
For anyone who wants to pull out all the stops, the Friedrich M18YF
has a HSPF of 11 and produces 21,600 BTU/h at 47F and 16,600 BTU/h at
17F. It continues to produce heat (albeit at reduced amounts) all the
way down to 5F. And with these new inverter drives, you can
effectively size a heat pump according to your home's heating
requirements and not have to worry about paying a penalty in terms of
reduced cooling performance.
That's a key point -- with a high efficiency, inverter-driven heat
pump, appropriately sized for heating demands, I expect the need for
backup resistance heat would be rather modest.
>I'm not as pessimistic about gas prices as you are. The root of the
>price run-up is the installation of thousands of megawatts of gas
>turbine and combined cycle plants that burn natural gas. This was a
>crutch to ride out the worst of the econazi craziness. IT seems to me
>that the worst of this is past, that most everyone except the crazies
>themselves realize that "ban everything" (fossil and nuke plants,
>transmission lines, substations, etc) hasn't worked very well.
>
>The utilities, at least most of 'em if I can go by what the trade
>press says, have realized that this crutch has been used about as much
>as is practical. Streamlined licensing is enabling the construction
>of new fossil plants and in the not too distant future, nukes. Once
>those dams burst, the demand for NG will at first level off and then
>decline. Gas turbine based plants are expensive to run and to
>maintain so they'll be relegated back to where they belong - peaking
>duty.
>
>For the time being I'd hedge my bets with multiple heat sources. A
>dual fuel NG/heat pump and AC unit would cover two sources of heat.
>Either electric baseboard or 240 volt freestanding electric heaters
>will cover the electric end if it's too cold for the heat pump and gas
>is too high. Room electric heaters, effectively giving zone control,
>is more efficient than central resistance heating.
Electric power generation puts a big strain on natural gas supplies,
the summer months in particular when peaking plants are required to
meet high air conditioning loads. I'm not sure how you get around
that, unless utilities can do a much better job with respect to energy
conservation and proper load management. For now, I'm afraid we're
pretty much stuck with what we have.
I'm also a strong believer in fuel diversity. In addition to a
minimal amount of passive solar and modest internal heat gains from
lighting and appliances, my home has four sources of heat: an
oil-fired boiler, a ductless heat pump, in-floor electric (radiant)
heat and four propane fireplaces. The in-floor electric heat is
seldom used because, as you can imagine, the heat pump is far more
economical to operate. And given that propane costs me $1.05 per
litre ($4.00 per US gallon), the fireplaces are largely relegated to
emergency backup heat in the event of an extended power outage. [And
now that the boiler is wired to the backup generator, the likelihood
that they will be ever be used is pretty low.]
>I missed the 11k sq ft part. Yes, the contractors are proposing far
>too little capacity. 80Kbtu is barely adequate for a 2000 sq ft house
>in this temperate climate.
I'm thinking (certainly hoping) Mike meant 1,100 sq. ft. and not
11,000!
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-04-03, 1:25 pm |
| Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>For anyone who wants to pull out all the stops, the Friedrich M18YF
>has a HSPF of 11 and produces 21,600 BTU/h at 47F and 16,600 BTU/h at
>17F. It continues to produce heat (albeit at reduced amounts) all the
>way down to 5F.
When does the COP become 1?
Nick
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-03, 1:25 pm |
| Hi Nick,
On 3 Apr 2007 12:07:07 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>When does the COP become 1?
I'm afraid I can't provide you with a proper answer, but I imagine it
would be at some point well below 5F.
In another thread, I mentioned I had specified a York BXH-60 rooftop
heat pump for my new commercial space. According to the
manufacturer's specifications, this particular model, which has a HSPF
of 8.0, produces 57,710 BTUs at 50F, 41,400 BTUs at 30F, 29,700 BTUs
at 10F and 21,300 BTUs at minus 10F. Its power consumption at minus
10F (including that of the indoor fan motor operating at 1,700 CFM and
with an air temperature over the evaporator of 70F) is 2.49 kW. So,
that being the case, even at minus 10F, the COP for this particular
unit is still a quite respectable 2.5. I have to assume a heat pump
with a HSPF of 11 would do even better.
Source: http://www.yorkupg.com/PDFFiles/278726-YTG-A-1106.pdf
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-03, 5:25 pm |
| On 3 Apr 2007 06:39:10 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>
>With 100 F dry radiators?
In a combined cycle gas turbine plant, the combustion turbine drives
its own generator. The exhaust, in the range of 700 deg F., flows to
a conventional steam boiler that drives a separate steam
turbogenerator. The combined efficiency tops the 50% mark.
Few if any use dry radiators. All steam turbines use water-cooled
condensers operated in a vacuum (the vapor pressure of water at the
condensing temperature, essentially.) Plants located in arid regions
use some sort of evaporative cooling tower that returns cooled
condenser water considerably under ambient. Of course, here in the
east where water is everywhere, they locate the plant on a river or
creek bank whenever possible.
The most fascinating thing about these plants to me is the mufflers. I
can stand right next to the turbine intake and hear NO whine.
Remarkable.
>I wonder how much is lost in transmission.
Off the top of my head, seems like the typical figure used in the
business is 2% from generator to outlet.
>And is Baltimore really too cold for an air-source heat pump? NREL says
>the coldest month is January, with a 31.8 F average temp and a 40.2 max
>and 650 Btu/ft^2-day of sun on the ground and 1050 on a south wall.
Don't know about NREL. I only know that when I lived in the area in
the 80s nobody even considered heat pumps because of the low
temperatures. I spent a decent part of this last winter in the region
and could detect no global warming at all :-)
It's probably a borderline area and what tilts the balance away from
heat pumps is the high cost of electricity, I imagine.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-03, 5:25 pm |
| On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:33:26 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
<paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>Not sure I can agree with you on this one. According to EIA's latest
>numbers, less than 10 per cent of America's utility generation is
>natural gas driven (238,484 GWH versus a total of 2,554,050 GHW), a
>good portion of which I imagine can be attributed to peakers. When
>you total all sources, including combined heat and power (where,
>obviously, the waste heat is put to good use) and independent power
>producers, the final number climbs to 18.7 per cent.
>
>Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electr...pa/epat1p1.html
That's true but that's not the issue here. One figure that sticks in
my head from a trade rag is that about half the total demand for
natural gas is now for electricity generation. An absurd situation
artificially created by the new state-sponsored religion, radical
environmentalism, and its church, the EPA.
Natural gas is an almost irreplaceable feedstock for the manufacture
of everything from plastics to freon. It's ludicrous to burn this
feedstock for heat just because a minority has a religious belief
against nuclear and coal fired power plants!
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-03, 8:25 pm |
| On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:30:13 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:33:26 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
><paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>That's true but that's not the issue here. One figure that sticks in
>my head from a trade rag is that about half the total demand for
>natural gas is now for electricity generation. An absurd situation
>artificially created by the new state-sponsored religion, radical
>environmentalism, and its church, the EPA.
>
>Natural gas is an almost irreplaceable feedstock for the manufacture
>of everything from plastics to freon. It's ludicrous to burn this
>feedstock for heat just because a minority has a religious belief
>against nuclear and coal fired power plants!
I consider natural gas a premium fuel and one that should not be used
indiscriminately, but from a utility's point of view, it offers a lot
of advantages, not least of which is that its clean burning -- an
important consideration for peaker plants located in urban areas. If
coal and nuclear -- fuels best suited for base load operation -- are
to play a larger role in our generation mix, we must first flatten our
load curve through greater conservation and load management.
I would also suggest we need to be far more aggressive in terms of
combined heat and power (self generation and district heating) and
renewable like wind and small hydro, where such resources are cost
competitive.
I see so much waste and inefficiency all around me and there are days
when I just want to knock heads. Case in point: one of my clients had
replaced a leaking (propane fired) hot water tank that served the
company's executive washrooms with a 120 gallon electric unit that had
been removed from the production floor when it was no longer required.
The problem? It had three 15 kW heating elements! A small, 6-gallon,
1.5 kW tank would have been perfectly adequate for hand washing
purposes and here we have one that sucks back thirty times that! This
costs the firm an additional $4,460.00/year in demand charges alone.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-04-03, 8:25 pm |
| On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 22:39:43 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
<paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>I see so much waste and inefficiency all around me and there are days
>when I just want to knock heads. Case in point: one of my clients had
>replaced a leaking (propane fired) hot water tank that served the
>company's executive washrooms with a 120 gallon electric unit that had
>been removed from the production floor when it was no longer required.
>The problem? It had three 15 kW heating elements! A small, 6-gallon,
>1.5 kW tank would have been perfectly adequate for hand washing
>purposes and here we have one that sucks back thirty times that! This
>costs the firm an additional $4,460.00/year in demand charges alone.
A ) disable 2 elements to avoid demand charges, and B ) the
actual cost of the hot water will not change, regardless. The usage
is the same, the volume of cold water to be heated is thus the same,
to the same temperature, thus the same energy cost to do it.
The only difference would be stand-by losses from the larger
surface area of the larger tank, so add insulation.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%xiQh.3469$i93.2052@trnddc05...
>
> Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home w/
> stone/brick covered front porch. in the Baltimore, MD area (mid Atlantic).
> w/ the front facing due south.. The walls are at least two courses of
> brick, maybe more, ok replacement aluminum storm windows, it's got no
> accessible attic, 8' 2" ceilings w/ electric baseboard heat.\ and window
> ac. I'm going to upgrade the heating and AC. I'm getting the first
> floor gutted leaving the plaster on the walls then framed w/ standard wood
> studs, then insulated (what should I used for insulation?) into one room
> appx 16'' x 30. Some months ago I posted a similar message in some the
> same news groups and several posters recommended a system that includes a
> high efficiency heat pump, well the contracotrs here are not sold on heat
> pumps I din't know if they don't have experience w/ the new HPs. I
> included two estimates to install a HVAC system. What do you think? How
> would you design the system differently. BTW, electricity costs increase
> 50% in cost June 1st of this year.
> *************************************************************************************.
> quote by a local licensed contractor:
> Install one new Goodman 80% A.F.U.E., Model #GMS8/GDS8/GHS8 Multi Speed
> Gas Furnace.
> Install one new Goodman A-Coil, 13 seer.
> Install one new Goodman High-Efficiency Condenser 2 1/2 ton, 13 seer.
> Run complete new ductwork throughout 1st and 2nd floor to supply
> sufficient outlets to each room on 1st and
> 2nd floor.
> Run one new cold air return duct to 1st and 2nd floor.
> Run all new copper refrigeration lines to Condenser.
> Install all necessary registers and grilles.
> Install one new heat/cool thermostat.
>
> Additional: All wiring, patching, painting and boxing in of ductwork to be
> done by others.
> Warranty: 20 Years Manufacturers Warranty on Heat-Exchanger.
> 10 Years Manufacturers Warranty on All Parts. (Until June
> 30, 2007)
> 1 Year Warranty on Labor.
> Cost: $8,400.00, $3,500.00 Down, $4,400.00 Due upon installing ductwork
> and equipment, $500.00 Due upon start up.
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> another quote from licensed Trane contractor. - hand written so I can't
> paste it.
>
> all duct work & returns, Trane XL 14; 2.5 Ton air conditioner, 14 SEER
> puron unit; Trane XL 80 % efficient gas furnace 80,000 btu unit w/ coil &
> programmable thermostat. same warranty on equipment.
> $9,900.00
>
> both units are 80% because they claim they can't vent properly an higher
> efficiency units.
TYPO ALERT! ! ! ! !
I live in a 1,100 sq ft house not a 11,000 sq house.
Sorry
>
| |
|
|
"ard[H20]" <no.thermals@this.desk.invalid> wrote in message
news:efs313lkrmtkr4ccju03heni40mbin8cg3@4ax.com...
> "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com>, wrote:
> Just _how_ are "specifics" going to help _you_ 'Mike'?
> And, if your contractors are not sold on heat pumps then
> you should not be sold on what they sell you.
Four years ago, when I bought this house I tried to find a reliable
contractor who would install a tankless water heater
end of story is I never got a tankless water heater because I couldn't find
a local heating plumber guy who could talk knowledgably about installing
one. BTW, error ibn my original post - I live in a 1,100 sq ft house not a
11, 000 sq ft house.
| |
|
|
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:rs64139p9nkrtpq4jsj67n60atjmlim54b@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 21:22:23 -0500, <kjpro @ mcse.ms> wrote:
>
>
> I agree with the contractors here. Baltimore is not a favorable
> climate for heat pumping. Especially given the electric rate there.
>
>
> Totally disagree. All that's needed is a flue booster fan. Maybe
> $50-100 extra. The high efficiency units invariably contain induced
> draft fans so the flue is forced and doesn't rely on convection. Only
> on really long flue runs would a booster be needed.
They claim the problem is venting because they mostly vent consendation (?)
and they way my house is built it'll have to vent into the alleyt a throuh
fare or
my cement deck which is a walkway.
BTW, error in my original post - I live in a 1,100 sq ft house not a
11, 000 sq ft house.
> Assuming there's no irrational code against it (who knows in that
> area), wall exit flues can be used. This device looks like a little
> white mushroom on the side of your wall that both exhausts the flue
> gas and intakes fresh air. I used them for a multiple high efficiency
> gas boiler changeout in PA in an apartment building I owned in the
> early 80s. Loved 'em. I have pictures if you need 'em to refute any
> flak you might get from the contractor.
>
>
>
> One last comment. I'm sure glad I live down here. That's about twice
> the going rate here. I doubt either contractor is gouging - that just
> reflects the extra cost of the overbearing amount of government y'all
> tolerate. BTDT, glad to be back South again.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
> Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:xhkQh.1917$F%1.166@trnddc01...
>
> "CJ" <?@rr.com> wrote in message news:4611BAD7.9000002@rr.com...
BTW, error in my original post - I live in a 1,100 sq ft house not a
11, 000 sq ft house. Sorry[color=darkred]
> will you reply w/ specifics?
>
| |
|
|
<kjpro @ mcse.ms> wrote in message
news:6d001$4611e06a$943f6c44$17622@STARBAND.NET...
>
> "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:xhkQh.1917$F%1.166@trnddc01...
> ****************************************************************************
> *********.
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> can't
>
>
> Equipment is to small for a 11K sq ft home...
>
> Is that hard to figure out?
>
BTW, error in my original post - I live in a 1,100 sq ft house not a
11, 000 sq ft house. Sorry
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-03, 8:25 pm |
| On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:56:16 -0400, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 22:39:43 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
><paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> A ) disable 2 elements to avoid demand charges, and B ) the
>actual cost of the hot water will not change, regardless. The usage
>is the same, the volume of cold water to be heated is thus the same,
>to the same temperature, thus the same energy cost to do it.
>
> The only difference would be stand-by losses from the larger
>surface area of the larger tank, so add insulation.
Good advice. I had recommended maintenance staff turn off the
breakers to two of these three elements and replace the third with a
lower wattage (i.e., 3 kW). This would reduce the annual demand
charges from $4,460.00 to just $297.00, with no impact on performance
whatsoever. The problem is that the operations manager doesn't seem
to care and I'm not in a position to force the issue. [Which makes it
all the more frustrating.]
Cheers,
Paul
| |
|
|
"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:06h313tthup9i3mf5pg7gu694j89url1be@4ax.com...
> Hi Mike,
>
> I'm one of the guys who recommended a ductless heat pump and I'm
> disappointed to hear the HVAC contractors you've contacted are
> unfamiliar with this technology. I suggested a ductless system as a
> way to avoid the hassle (and expense) of installing the ductwork
> related to a conventional forced air system; if you are removing the
> existing plaster walls and reframing then, obviously, one of the key
> benefits of this approach is largely moot.
>
> Since you are going the forced air route, you might consider a
> conventional heat pump as one more option. Over the long haul, I
> expect natural gas prices to significantly outpace electricity due to
> tight market conditions and a growing reliance on expensive LNG
> imports (largely from countries who don't exactly like you).
>
> If I'm reading BGE's rate schedule correctly, it looks like your new
> summer rate (after the 47 per cent increase) is 14.09 cents per kWh,
> including transmission and distribution charges, and the combined
> winter rate is 12.73 cents. A heat pump with a HSPF rating of 8.5
> (i.e., seasonal COP of 2.5), would thus provide heat at just under 5.1
> cents per kWh(e) and assuming similar SEER ratings, cooling costs
> would be on par.
>
> Currently, BGE charges $1.0243 per therm for natural gas and an
> additional $0.2561 for distribution (combined cost: $1.28/therm). At
> 80 per cent AFUE, the cost of gas heat works out to be 5.46 cents per
> kWh(e). That being the case, the operating cost of a mid-range heat
> pump and a mid-efficiency gas furnace are pretty much equal but,
> again, going forward, I expect electricity to be your least cost
> option. You've already taken the big hit now that the cap on
> electricity rates has been removed, and given the bulk of your
> electricity is coal-fired and nuclear, rates should (hopefully) remain
> relatively stable.
>
> Good luck on whatever you decide.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
Hi Paul, a typical bill for me (I only heat the dining room unless it's in
the single digits during the winter and rarely turn on the heat upstairs
except for the built in electric heater in the wall of the bathroom. The
electric utility rate is still being subsidized because the full unregulated
rates were going to take effect within months of a statewide election, so
they floated a one year bond issue to keep a cap on the rate, which is going
to increase at least 46% on June 1st. Not sure about gas subsidy
my bge feb bill
1995 kWh including delivery charges 264.03
gas 18 therms 17.27
delivery charge for the 18 therms 18.76 (note the delivery charge is
more the commodity charge)
Based on the above costs can you tell me what the cost differences is
between gas and electric?
After June of this year I;m looking at a 46% increase over the $264.03
electric charge. after my house is renovated i want to heat the entire
place which will at least triple the bill unless I make some major changes.
I believe eventually
the out of control unregulated rates are going to negatively impact on the
GNP then we'll see some sanity return to the market. From what I was
reading by Tyson Slocum every area that has regulated rates has lower cost
to consumers and more reliable power and the utilities are still making
money. I'm a free market guy buy what happened to the utilities is
criminal.
It looks like I'm not finding the right contractors.
Mike
| |
|
|
"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:qdm413lejptk7b8qqnurlo0cp5gcuqdvpb@4ax.com...
> Hi Nick,
>
> On 3 Apr 2007 02:47:00 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
> Not sure I can agree with you on this one. According to EIA's latest
> numbers, less than 10 per cent of America's utility generation is
> natural gas driven (238,484 GWH versus a total of 2,554,050 GHW), a
> good portion of which I imagine can be attributed to peakers. When
> you total all sources, including combined heat and power (where,
> obviously, the waste heat is put to good use) and independent power
> producers, the final number climbs to 18.7 per cent.
>
> Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electr...pa/epat1p1.html
>
> I don't have a proper breakdown of BGE's fuel mix, but for its
> corporate parent, Constellation Energy, it is as follows:
>
> Nuclear -- 60.9%
> Coal -- 34.6%
> Natural Gas -- 0.2%
> Oil -- 0.2%
> Renewables -- 3.9%
>
> Source:
> http://www.bge.com/portal/site/cons...b60610025166a0/
>
> I can't guarantee BGE's electricity rates will remain relatively
> stable in years to come,
They're going to increase 46% this June.
nor can I say with all certainty that coal
> and nuclear power will be less costly than domestic natural gas or LNG
> imports from the Middle East. But given that domestic natural gas
> production peaked back in 1973 and is continuing to fall year after
> year, and that America will be competing for LNG on the world market
> and that the cost of LNG will be tightly coupled to that of oil, I
> know where I'd be placing my bets.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
| |
|
|
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:jhh513dcnp0686hn7nlp0r478bs30h1pke@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:33:26 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
> <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's true but that's not the issue here. One figure that sticks in
> my head from a trade rag is that about half the total demand for
> natural gas is now for electricity generation. An absurd situation
> artificially created by the new state-sponsored religion, radical
> environmentalism, and its church, the EPA
There is no real incentive for some of the utilities to do away w/ gas
generation because they make a fortune by using it to generate electricty .
> Natural gas is an almost irreplaceable feedstock for the manufacture
> of everything from plastics to freon. It's ludicrous to burn this
> feedstock for heat just because a minority has a religious belief
> against nuclear and coal fired power plants!
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
> Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
|
|
"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:sap5139vk1d19sp7ljv11knhubdh8kj9jg@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:30:13 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>
> I consider natural gas a premium fuel and one that should not be used
> indiscriminately, but from a utility's point of view, it offers a lot
> of advantages, not least of which is that its clean burning -- an
> important consideration for peaker plants located in urban areas. If
> coal and nuclear -- fuels best suited for base load operation -- are
> to play a larger role in our generation mix, we must first flatten our
> load curve through greater conservation and load management.
>
Looks like I've got to look up the obscure refernce to gas in Bush's utility
bill.
short version if a utility generates any amount, at least I believe it's any
amount of electricity by using gas, the most expensive source, they can use
the cost basis for gas to artifically inflate their costs of other methods
of generating
electricity. BGE owned by Constellation is clearly a rip off -
Constellation generates the energy after being given the plants and 1/2 of a
billion dollars to upgrade them (thanks Enron) by Baltimore City or MAryland
tthen BGE charges to deliver the over prices utilities.
> I would also suggest we need to be far more aggressive in terms of
> combined heat and power (self generation and district heating) and
> renewable like wind and small hydro, where such resources are cost
> competitive.
>
> I see so much waste and inefficiency all around me and there are days
> when I just want to knock heads. Case in point: one of my clients had
> replaced a leaking (propane fired) hot water tank that served the
> company's executive washrooms with a 120 gallon electric unit that had
> been removed from the production floor when it was no longer required.
> The problem? It had three 15 kW heating elements! A small, 6-gallon,
> 1.5 kW tank would have been perfectly adequate for hand washing
> purposes and here we have one that sucks back thirty times that! This
> costs the firm an additional $4,460.00/year in demand charges alone.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
| |
|
|
<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:9mm5139c0r56a3dg2953ia52ib0s0a7f7i@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 22:39:43 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
> <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
What's a demand charge?
[color=darkred]
>
> A ) disable 2 elements to avoid demand charges, and B ) the
> actual cost of the hot water will not change, regardless. The usage
> is the same, the volume of cold water to be heated is thus the same,
> to the same temperature, thus the same energy cost to do it.
>
> The only difference would be stand-by losses from the larger
> surface area of the larger tank, so add insulation.
>
>
> --
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
> http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
|
|
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:cd7413dofmcj10kuqdluiiu5ftdpr9ba63@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 04:05:38 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
> <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> I still like ductless heat pumps and would go that route regardless if
> an installer can be found that is remotely competitive.
>
>
> That's a good analysis as far as it goes. But you forget that
> Baltimore is too cold most of the winter for an air exchange heat pump
> to work. He would therefore be back on resistance heat with a COP of
> 1.
>
> I'm not as pessimistic about gas prices as you are. The root of the
> price run-up is the installation of thousands of megawatts of gas
> turbine and combined cycle plants that burn natural gas. This was a
> crutch to ride out the worst of the econazi craziness. IT seems to me
> that the worst of this is past, that most everyone except the crazies
> themselves realize that "ban everything" (fossil and nuke plants,
> transmission lines, substations, etc) hasn't worked very well.
>
> The utilities, at least most of 'em if I can go by what the trade
> press says, have realized that this crutch has been used about as much
> as is practical. Streamlined licensing is enabling the construction
> of new fossil plants and in the not too distant future, nukes. Once
> those dams burst, the demand for NG will at first level off and then
> decline. Gas turbine based plants are expensive to run and to
> maintain so they'll be relegated back to where they belong - peaking
> duty.
>
> For the time being I'd hedge my bets with multiple heat sources. A
> dual fuel NG/heat pump and AC unit would cover two sources of heat.
> Either electric baseboard or 240 volt freestanding electric heaters
> will cover the electric end if it's too cold for the heat pump and gas
> is too high. Room electric heaters, effectively giving zone control,
> is more efficient than central resistance heating.
>
> I missed the 11k sq ft part. Yes, the contractors are proposing far
> too little capacity. 80Kbtu is barely adequate for a 2000 sq ft house
> in this temperate climate.
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
> Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
|
|
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:cd7413dofmcj10kuqdluiiu5ftdpr9ba63@4ax.com...
>
> I missed the 11k sq ft part. Yes, the contractors are proposing far
> too little capacity. 80Kbtu is barely adequate for a 2000 sq ft house
> in this temperate climate.
> ---
>big mistake on my part it's 1,100 sq ft not 11,00 sq ft sorry
| |
|
|
"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:rjp413tqpeo6sbboa454uoj5rnv88of6gj@4ax.com...
> Hi John,
>
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 05:40:39 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>
> It would be my first choice as well. I have an oil-fired boiler and
> last year, I used a total of 828 litres of heating oil (220 gallons)
> for heat and domestic hot water production, over half of which can be
> attributed to the latter. The rest of my space heating needs were met
> by a small ductless heat pump that operates at less than half the cost
> of oil (older, 2,500 sq. ft. Cape Cod).
>
>
> I live in a much colder climate (7,800 versus 4,700 HDD) and my
> seasonal COP last year was 2.45. Granted, I worked hard to achieve
> that number by making sure the unit ran continuously during the
> warmest times of the day and by using the thermal mass of my home to
> minimize its runtime as temperatures fell. Under normal operation,
> its COP would be in the range of 2.1 (based on a HSPF rating of 7.2,
> zones IV and V). A heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 or higher would
> perform notably better, especially at the lower end of the temperature
> band when additional heat is required.
>
> For anyone who wants to pull out all the stops, the Friedrich M18YF
> has a HSPF of 11 and produces 21,600 BTU/h at 47F and 16,600 BTU/h at
> 17F. It continues to produce heat (albeit at reduced amounts) all the
> way down to 5F. And with these new inverter drives, you can
> effectively size a heat pump according to your home's heating
> requirements and not have to worry about paying a penalty in terms of
> reduced cooling performance.
>
> That's a key point -- with a high efficiency, inverter-driven heat
> pump, appropriately sized for heating demands, I expect the need for
> backup resistance heat would be rather modest.
Paul would you explain the acronyms? How much is the Friedrich M18YF and
how much would it cost to install it.?
>
>
> Electric power generation puts a big strain on natural gas supplies,
> the summer months in particular when peaking plants are required to
> meet high air conditioning loads. I'm not sure how you get around
> that, unless utilities can do a much better job with respect to energy
> conservation and proper load management. For now, I'm afraid we're
> pretty much stuck with what we have.
>
> I'm also a strong believer in fuel diversity. In addition to a
> minimal amount of passive solar and modest internal heat gains from
> lighting and appliances, my home has four sources of heat: an
> oil-fired boiler, a ductless heat pump, in-floor electric (radiant)
> heat and four propane fireplaces. The in-floor electric heat is
> seldom used because, as you can imagine, the heat pump is far more
> economical to operate. And given that propane costs me $1.05 per
> litre ($4.00 per US gallon), the fireplaces are largely relegated to
> emergency backup heat in the event of an extended power outage. [And
> now that the boiler is wired to the backup generator, the likelihood
> that they will be ever be used is pretty low.]
>
>
> I'm thinking (certainly hoping) Mike meant 1,100 sq. ft. and not
> 11,000!
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
| |
|
|
"-zero" <not_zero@not_real_zero.com> wrote in message
news:46126f4f$0$1409$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:%xiQh.3469$i93.2052@trnddc05...
> <snip>
>
> Do you actually mean 11,100 sq. ft.... or would that be 1,100 sq. ft.?
>
> -zero
that would be 1,100 sqf, sorry
| |
| Snap Whipcrack.............. 2007-04-03, 9:25 pm |
| Mike wrote:
> Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home w/
> stone/brick covered front porch. in the Baltimore, MD area (mid Atlantic).
> w/ the front facing due south.. The walls are at least two courses of brick,
> maybe more, ok replacement aluminum storm windows, it's got no accessible
> attic, 8' 2" ceilings w/ electric baseboard heat.\ and window ac. I'm going
> to upgrade the heating and AC. I'm getting the first floor gutted leaving
> the plaster on the walls then framed w/ standard wood studs, then insulated
> (what should I used for insulation?) into one room appx 16'' x 30. Some
> months ago I posted a similar message in some the same news groups and
> several posters recommended a system that includes a high efficiency heat
> pump, well the contracotrs here are not sold on heat pumps I din't know if
> they don't have experience w/ the new HPs. I included two estimates to
> install a HVAC system. What do you think? How would you design the system
> differently. BTW, electricity costs increase 50% in cost June 1st of this
> year.
> *************************************************************************************.
> quote by a local licensed contractor:
> Install one new Goodman 80% A.F.U.E., Model #GMS8/GDS8/GHS8 Multi Speed Gas
> Furnace.
> Install one new Goodman A-Coil, 13 seer.
> Install one new Goodman High-Efficiency Condenser 2 1/2 ton, 13 seer.
> Run complete new ductwork throughout 1st and 2nd floor to supply sufficient
> outlets to each room on 1st and
> 2nd floor.
> Run one new cold air return duct to 1st and 2nd floor.
> Run all new copper refrigeration lines to Condenser.
> Install all necessary registers and grilles.
> Install one new heat/cool thermostat.
>
> Additional: All wiring, patching, painting and boxing in of ductwork to be
> done by others.
> Warranty: 20 Years Manufacturers Warranty on Heat-Exchanger.
> 10 Years Manufacturers Warranty on All Parts. (Until June 30,
> 2007)
> 1 Year Warranty on Labor.
> Cost: $8,400.00, $3,500.00 Down, $4,400.00 Due upon installing ductwork and
> equipment, $500.00 Due upon start up.
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> another quote from licensed Trane contractor. - hand written so I can't
> paste it.
>
> all duct work & returns, Trane XL 14; 2.5 Ton air conditioner, 14 SEER puron
> unit; Trane XL 80 % efficient gas furnace 80,000 btu unit w/ coil &
> programmable thermostat. same warranty on equipment.
> $9,900.00
>
> both units are 80% because they claim they can't vent properly an higher
> efficiency units.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
How did the people in the 19th century and before ever live without HVAC???
--
Snap
Hey, I eat my vegetables. Potatoes are vegetables arent' they?
So I eat my French Fries and I get my vegetables.
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-03, 9:25 pm |
| On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 23:38:23 GMT, "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>They claim the problem is venting because they mostly vent consendation (?)
>and they way my house is built it'll have to vent into the alleyt a throuh
>fare or
>my cement deck which is a walkway.
Neither is a problem. The highest efficiency furnaces are condensing
furnaces. That is, the flue gas is cooled to the point that the
moisture generated by combustion is condensed out. The furnace has a
little drain tube that feeds this condensate typically to the same
condensate pump that the AC uses. The flue gas is cool enough that
PVC is used for the exhaust run. What comes out outside is a slightly
warm, humid low velocity stream of air, almost always odorless. There
is certainly no burn or fire hazard. Basically, it can be exhausted
pretty much anywhere except directly into an air intake that feeds
habitable spaces because of the ever-so-slight risk of CO.
Need to find another contractor, I'm afraid.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-03, 9:25 pm |
| On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 01:29:30 GMT, "Snap Whipcrack.............."
<snapw@aol.com> wrote:
>How did the people in the 19th century and before ever live without HVAC???
Miserably and then died in early middle age.
Feel free to try out that lifestyle. Just pull the breaker on your
HVAC, open the windows and see how long you last. Major myth: you
don't "acclimate". You simply learn not to XXXXX about it so much.
I spent part of my youth in an un-air conditioned house. Frankly, I'd
stop eating before I'd stop the AC.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| geothermaljones 2007-04-03, 9:25 pm |
| 80,000 seems a bit high for 1100sf.
Get a thorough heatloss done, especially if your adding insulation.
We use airsource heatpumps here in MN where design temps are -25dF
They work fine.
The typical balance point on a properly sized heatpump is about 26dF
That's the point where the heat output of the unit falls below the heat loss
of the building.
Do a quick check of the Bin data for Baltimore & you'll find the exact
number of hours your actually below the balance point.
As for venting the High eff being impossible, my question is where is he
going to vent the 80%?
I'd ask your Trane guy for an 80% (if the flues a real issue) & a 14i or 16i
heat pump.
Size the 14i for the cooling load &
Oversized 16i for extra heat, as it's a 2 stage unit that can unload about
35% of it's capacity.
You'll easily cover your cooling with the first stage on 85% of the summer &
have more than enough to cover those brutal hot weeks in Aug.
I'd also take a look at the Mitsubishi PUMY series heatpump...
Singe outdoor unit & up to 8 indoor units for true zoning.
See mehvac.com & look under the city-multi pages.
good luck
geothermaljones
st.paul,mn.
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%xiQh.3469$i93.2052@trnddc05...
>
> Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home w/
> stone/brick covered front porch. in the Baltimore, MD area (mid Atlantic).
> w/ the front facing due south.. The walls are at least two courses of
brick,
> maybe more, ok replacement aluminum storm windows, it's got no accessible
> attic, 8' 2" ceilings w/ electric baseboard heat.\ and window ac. I'm
going
> to upgrade the heating and AC. I'm getting the first floor gutted
leaving
> the plaster on the walls then framed w/ standard wood studs, then
insulated
> (what should I used for insulation?) into one room appx 16'' x 30. Some
> months ago I posted a similar message in some the same news groups and
> several posters recommended a system that includes a high efficiency heat
> pump, well the contracotrs here are not sold on heat pumps I din't know if
> they don't have experience w/ the new HPs. I included two estimates to
> install a HVAC system. What do you think? How would you design the
system
> differently. BTW, electricity costs increase 50% in cost June 1st of this
> year.
>
****************************************************************************
*********.
> quote by a local licensed contractor:
> Install one new Goodman 80% A.F.U.E., Model #GMS8/GDS8/GHS8 Multi Speed
Gas
> Furnace.
> Install one new Goodman A-Coil, 13 seer.
> Install one new Goodman High-Efficiency Condenser 2 1/2 ton, 13 seer.
> Run complete new ductwork throughout 1st and 2nd floor to supply
sufficient
> outlets to each room on 1st and
> 2nd floor.
> Run one new cold air return duct to 1st and 2nd floor.
> Run all new copper refrigeration lines to Condenser.
> Install all necessary registers and grilles.
> Install one new heat/cool thermostat.
>
> Additional: All wiring, patching, painting and boxing in of ductwork to be
> done by others.
> Warranty: 20 Years Manufacturers Warranty on Heat-Exchanger.
> 10 Years Manufacturers Warranty on All Parts. (Until June
30,
> 2007)
> 1 Year Warranty on Labor.
> Cost: $8,400.00, $3,500.00 Down, $4,400.00 Due upon installing ductwork
and
> equipment, $500.00 Due upon start up.
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
> another quote from licensed Trane contractor. - hand written so I can't
> paste it.
>
> all duct work & returns, Trane XL 14; 2.5 Ton air conditioner, 14 SEER
puron
> unit; Trane XL 80 % efficient gas furnace 80,000 btu unit w/ coil &
> programmable thermostat. same warranty on equipment.
> $9,900.00
>
> both units are 80% because they claim they can't vent properly an higher
> efficiency units.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| |
|
|
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:g11613t4iu7kc6ca7v4s7csfbh3i9cgatk@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 23:38:23 GMT, "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Neither is a problem. The highest efficiency furnaces are condensing
> furnaces. That is, the flue gas is cooled to the point that the
> moisture generated by combustion is condensed out. The furnace has a
> little drain tube that feeds this condensate typically to the same
> condensate pump that the AC uses. The flue gas is cool enough that
> PVC is used for the exhaust run. What comes out outside is a slightly
> warm, humid low velocity stream of air, almost always odorless. There
> is certainly no burn or fire hazard. Basically, it can be exhausted
> pretty much anywhere except directly into an air intake that feeds
> habitable spaces because of the ever-so-slight risk of CO.
>
> Need to find another contractor, I'm afraid.
>
they said building codes don't permit vent over walkways and alleys because
it freezes and creates a safety hazard. they also told me its cool to the
touch and vents using pvc.
| |
|
|
"geothermaljones" <geothermaljones@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:f4idnS017fPql47bnZ2dnUVZ_qmpnZ2d@comcast.com...
> 80,000 seems a bit high for 1100sf.
> Get a thorough heatloss done, especially if your adding insulation.
who does a heat loss and what is it? does it matter what time of the years
it is done?
>
> We use airsource heatpumps here in MN where design temps are -25dF
> They work fine.
> The typical balance point on a properly sized heatpump is about 26dF
> That's the point where the heat output of the unit falls below the heat
> loss
> of the building.
> Do a quick check of the Bin data for Baltimore & you'll find the exact
> number of hours your actually below the balance point.
what is the bin data and where can i find it?
>
> As for venting the High eff being impossible, my question is where is he
> going to vent the 80%?
good question, i'll find out.
>
> I'd ask your Trane guy for an 80% (if the flues a real issue) & a 14i or
> 16i
> heat pump.
> Size the 14i for the cooling load &
> Oversized 16i for extra heat, as it's a 2 stage unit that can unload about
> 35% of it's capacity.
> You'll easily cover your cooling with the first stage on 85% of the summer
> &
> have more than enough to cover those brutal hot weeks in Aug.
I'll check it out
>
> I'd also take a look at the Mitsubishi PUMY series heatpump...
> Singe outdoor unit & up to 8 indoor units for true zoning.
> See mehvac.com & look under the city-multi pages.
>
> good luck
> geothermaljones
> st.paul,mn.
Thanks i'll check it out.
>
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-04, 3:25 am |
| Hi Mike,
On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 01:17:44 GMT, "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Paul would you explain the acronyms? How much is the Friedrich M18YF and
>how much would it cost to install it.?
The two acronyms most frequently used when discussing heat pumps are
COP and HSPF.
COP stands for "coefficient of performance" and, simply put, it's a
measure of the amount of energy provided in relation to what is
consumed by its operation (higher numbers are better). So, for
example, if a heat pump has a COP of 3, it means that three kWh of
heat are transferred into the living space for every one kWh of
electricity consumed.
The COP of an air source heat pump will vary according to the unit's
design (like cars, some are inherently more fuel efficient than
others) and the outdoor operating temperature (heat pump performance
degrades in colder weather). By comparison, electric resistance heat
has a COP of 1.0 -- 1 kWh of electricity equals 1 kWh of heat.
HSPF is short for "heating season performance factor" and represents
the amount of heat supplied by the heat pump over the course of the
heating season (in BTU), divided by the amount of power consumed
during this timeframe (in Watt-hours). Once again, higher numbers are
better. The current minimum HSPF rating for heat pumps is 7.7; that
means every heat pump must provide a minimum of 7.7 BTU for every one
Watt-hour consumed. When comparing the relative efficiency of two or
more models, use this number.
To convert HSPF to COP, divide the HSPF rating by 3.4. For example, a
heat pump with a HSPF rating of 8.5 would have a "seasonal COP" of
2.5. In the case of the above-mentioned Friedrich M18YF, a HSPF
rating of 11.0 translates to a seasonal COP of a 3.2.
Once you convert HSPF to COP, you can easily calculate the effective
cost of each kWh of heat provided. If, for example, you pay $0.10 per
kWh for electricity and the heat pump has a seasonal COP of 2.5, your
effective cost for each kWh of heat supplied is just $0.04.
I can't honestly tell you what you could expect to pay for this
particular model, but hopefully someone else can. I'm guessing the
installed cost might be in the range of $3,000.00 to $4,000.00, but
that's just a shot in the dark. Sorry.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-04, 3:25 am |
| On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 01:09:29 GMT, "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Looks like I've got to look up the obscure refernce to gas in Bush's utility
>bill.
>short version if a utility generates any amount, at least I believe it's any
>amount of electricity by using gas, the most expensive source, they can use
>the cost basis for gas to artifically inflate their costs of other methods
>of generating
>electricity. BGE owned by Constellation is clearly a rip off -
>Constellation generates the energy after being given the plants and 1/2 of a
>billion dollars to upgrade them (thanks Enron) by Baltimore City or MAryland
>tthen BGE charges to deliver the over prices utilities.
I don't know how rates are set in Maryland but isn't there a public
utilities commission that governs such matters? At the very least, I
would expect the state legislature would have some recourse if the
utility acted improperly.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-04-04, 3:25 am |
| On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 03:04:21 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
<paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Hi Mike,
>
>On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 01:17:44 GMT, "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>The two acronyms most frequently used when discussing heat pumps are
>COP and HSPF.
Geez, I just did this one in another group. Don't forget EBP
and TBP !! :-)
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-04, 3:25 am |
| On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 02:27:39 GMT, "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
>they said building codes don't permit vent over walkways and alleys because
>it freezes and creates a safety hazard. they also told me its cool to the
>touch and vents using pvc.
>
That's what the counterflow exhaust vent is for. This vent consists
of two concentric pipes. The inner one carries the flue gas and the
outer one carries fresh air for combustion. The cool incoming air
cools the flue gas down to the ambient outside temperature, condensing
out the moisture which, if the flue is installed with the proper
slope, flows back inward to a low point drain. The exiting flue gas
is at or near the outside ambient temperature and dew point so there
is nothing to condense and freeze. The outside part of the vent is
plastic that is thermally non-conductive and of low specific heat
which means that it quickly warms to whatever the exhaust temperature
is, precluding condensing and freezing.
An additional benefit of this type of vent is that since no combustion
air is taken from the living spaces, no additional drafts are caused.
No more cold feet when the furnace kicks on.
I don't know Baltimore's code but I'd be very surprised to find that
the use of counterflow exhaust vents is banned. More usual is the
contractor claiming something is against the code to get out of doing
something he doesn't want to do. Hard for a customer to argue with
"the code" (that he probably knows only slightly better than the
customer.)
I STILL suggest talking to other contractors. Methinks you're being
BSed.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-04, 3:25 am |
| On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 01:10:37 GMT, "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What's a demand charge?
Most commercial and industrial customers (and, in some areas,
residential customers) pay for both demand (kW) and energy (kWh).
Utilities must have sufficient generation and transmission and
distribution resources in place to satisfy customer demand at all
times and the higher the peak demand, the more money the utility must
spend to build and operate these facilities. Demand charges are a
more equitable way of allocating these costs among consumers -- the
end result is that customers who place a greater burden on the utility
system (by using large amounts of power at any one point in time) pay
a higher premium for these services.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| geothermaljones 2007-04-04, 3:25 am |
|
> who does a heat loss and what is it? does it matter what time of the
years
> it is done?
Your contractor should be able to give you a room by room heat loss
calculation
It's the industry standard for calculating the actual heat loss & gain of a
building in any given city
based on the highest & lowest temps...
Try a look at Elitesoft.com or wrightsoft.com & play with the demos.
> what is the bin data and where can i find it?
That's a little harder to find...
The ACCA has a book that contains it.
You may be able to Google it...
or find it on the weather underground web site, another Google
I've had good luck with the university of Minnesota school of climatology,
check out your local Universities.
Bin data is a record of the number of hours the temperature is within a
"bin" of 5 dF increments.
it usually starts low at -30 to -26 then -25 to -21, -20 to -16, & so on, up
to a bin of 115 to 120 or so...
you'll find the low end bins are a relatively small percentage of the actual
heating season hours.
good luck
geothermaljones
st.paul,mn.
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-04, 3:25 am |
| On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 23:21:17 -0400, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
> Geez, I just did this one in another group. Don't forget EBP
>and TBP !! :-)
Oh yeah... balance points... perhaps we save that discussion for
another day? :-)
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-04-04, 3:25 am |
| On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 00:46:31 GMT, "Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Hi Paul, a typical bill for me (I only heat the dining room unless it's in
>the single digits during the winter and rarely turn on the heat upstairs
>except for the built in electric heater in the wall of the bathroom. The
>electric utility rate is still being subsidized because the full unregulated
>rates were going to take effect within months of a statewide election, so
>they floated a one year bond issue to keep a cap on the rate, which is going
>to increase at least 46% on June 1st. Not sure about gas subsidy
>
>my bge feb bill
>1995 kWh including delivery charges 264.03
>gas 18 therms 17.27
>delivery charge for the 18 therms 18.76 (note the delivery charge is
>more the commodity charge)
>
>Based on the above costs can you tell me what the cost differences is
>between gas and electric?
Hi Mike,
The BGE website is poorly organized and I've just about given up
trying to make sense of their rate schedules. It's a complete mess.
Based on your billing data, it looks like you're currently paying
$0.1323 per kWh. I had calculated your rate to be $0.1273, so I
suspect the difference is due to the inclusion of the monthly account
fee ($7.50), plus any other adjustments I may have overlooked. I
believe the new (higher) summer rate will be $0.1409, or something
close to that. Frankly, for a utility that is predominately coal and
nuclear driven, these rates are a whole lot higher than what I would
expect.
From what I can tell, natural gas is currently selling at $1.0243 per
therm (commodity charge), plus an additional $0.2561 for delivery.
There is a further account fee of $13.00 per month, which appears to
have been lumped together with these variable expenses -- like the
$7.50 account fee for the electrical portion of your bill, we need to
back out this fixed charge; otherwise, we can't properly compare the
consumption related costs of these two fuels.
So, if I'm correct in saying this, your winter rate currently stands
at $0.127 per kWh and natural gas comes in at $1.28 per therm. As
mentioned, at these rates, the annual operating cost of a mid
efficiency heat pump (HSPF of 8.5) and a mid efficiency gas furnace
are pretty much the same. What we need to ask ourselves is which of
these two fuel choices will likely be the low cost option, one, five
or ten years from now.
Keep in mind that natural gas prices have fallen over the past year
due to the fact that the last two winters have been unusually mild.
Will we be so fortunate next year? Only time will tell.
Also, I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but it appears BGE signed a
couple power purchase agreements at a time when electricity costs were
significantly higher than they are today. Those contracts are due to
expire over the next two years and in light of today's lower market
prices, this could have a positive effect on electricity prices, at
least over the near term.
I wish I could provide you with clear direction, but there are so many
unknowns as they pertain to this particular utility. You would be
wise to do your own digging in this area (e.g., local media coverage,
consumer groups, regulatory filings, press releases, PUC documents,
etc.). But even at that, it's likely to be one big crapshoot. Good
luck!
Cheers,
Paul
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1tBQh.6376$%G4.1744@trndny05...
>
> "ard[H20]" <no.thermals@this.desk.invalid> wrote in message
> news:efs313lkrmtkr4ccju03heni40mbin8cg3@4ax.com...
know[color=darkred]
>
> Four years ago, when I bought this house I tried to find a reliable
> contractor who would install a tankless water heater
> end of story is I never got a tankless water heater because I couldn't
find
> a local heating plumber guy who could talk knowledgably about installing
> one.
Time for school to learn a new trade? Just think, you'd be the only one in
town that understood them.
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PzBQh.6396$%G4.4102@trndny05...
>
> "Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
> news:rs64139p9nkrtpq4jsj67n60atjmlim54b@4ax.com...
know[color=darkred]
higher[color=darkred]
>
> They claim the problem is venting because they mostly vent consendation
(?)
> and they way my house is built it'll have to vent into the alleyt a throuh
> fare or
> my cement deck which is a walkway.
Like I said.... keep looking for a competent HVAC contractor.
| |
|
|
"Mike" <1234@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v2EQh.5415$bM1.5352@trnddc03...
>
> "Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
> news:g11613t4iu7kc6ca7v4s7csfbh3i9cgatk@4ax.com...
throuh[color=darkred]
> they said building codes don't permit vent over walkways and alleys
because
> it freezes and creates a safety hazard. they also told me its cool to the
> touch and vents using pvc.
It's VERY unlikey that you have no place to vent a 90+ furnace.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-04-04, 9:25 am |
| Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>Few if any use dry radiators. All steam turbines use water-cooled
>condensers operated in a vacuum (the vapor pressure of water at the
>condensing temperature, essentially.) Plants located in arid regions
>use some sort of evaporative cooling tower that returns cooled
>condenser water considerably under ambient. Of course, here in the
>east where water is everywhere, they locate the plant on a river or
>creek bank whenever possible.
A couple of years ago, FPL proposed a natural gas version with 100 F
water vapor inside dry radiators right next to Limerick, right next to
the Perkiomen Creek.
>
>Off the top of my head, seems like the typical figure used in the
>business is 2% from generator to outlet.
Wow. Not much.
>
>Don't know about NREL. I only know that when I lived in the area in
>the 80s nobody even considered heat pumps because of the low
>temperatures. I spent a decent part of this last winter in the region
>and could detect no global warming at all :-)
Perhaps things have changed. IIRC one Canadian site/CSA standard talks
about producing useful heat at -15 to -25C without backup. We might make
ice in a circular swimming pool with a solar cover in Baltimore :-)
Nick
| |
|
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:euvs57$gfa@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>
> A couple of years ago, FPL proposed a natural gas version with 100 F
> water vapor inside dry radiators right next to Limerick, right next to
> the Perkiomen Creek.
>
>
> Wow. Not much.
>
Some of the non technical readers (me) are really interested in technical
postsa the techies write
but don't have a clue eg,
*And is Baltimore really too cold for an air-source heat pump? NREL says
*>>>the coldest month is January, with a 31.8 F average temp and a 40.2 max
*>>>and 650 Btu/ft^2-day of sun on the ground and 1050 on a south wall.[color=darkred]
>*>Don't know about NREL. I only know that when I lived in the area in
*>>the 80s nobody even considered heat pumps because of the low
*>>temperatures. I spent a decent part of this last winter in the region
*>>and could detect no global warming at all :-)
This winter we had a two week stretch oif weather in the teens or below at
night and teens or twenties during the day.
> Perhaps things have changed. IIRC one Canadian site/CSA standard talks
> about producing useful heat at -15 to -25C without backup. We might make
> ice in a circular swimming pool with a solar cover in Baltimore :-)
>
> Nick
>
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-04-04, 9:25 am |
| Or you could move to a climate that doesn't require it. We have never had
a/c, and our heating system (a wood stove) doesn't require a breaker. How
are you with -40 in winter ;-)
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:rm1613phnq0ct4r0gnli3r48lbal7qp7rh@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 01:29:30 GMT, "Snap Whipcrack.............."
> <snapw@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Miserably and then died in early middle age.
>
> Feel free to try out that lifestyle. Just pull the breaker on your
> HVAC, open the windows and see how long you last. Major myth: you
> don't "acclimate". You simply learn not to XXXXX about it so much.
>
> I spent part of my youth in an un-air conditioned house. Frankly, I'd
> stop eating before I'd stop the AC.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
> Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-04-04, 9:25 am |
| Much the same here. Window fans are good, but they can only do so
much. Especially when it's humid.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:rm1613phnq0ct4r0gnli3r48lbal7qp7rh@4ax.com...
: >How did the people in the 19th century and before ever live
without HVAC???
:
: Miserably and then died in early middle age.
:
: Feel free to try out that lifestyle. Just pull the breaker on
your
: HVAC, open the windows and see how long you last. Major myth:
you
: don't "acclimate". You simply learn not to XXXXX about it so
much.
:
: I spent part of my youth in an un-air conditioned house.
Frankly, I'd
: stop eating before I'd stop the AC.
:
: John
| |
| Neon John 2007-04-04, 9:25 am |
| On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:57:04 -0400, "Steve Spence"
<sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>Or you could move to a climate that doesn't require it. We have never had
>a/c, and our heating system (a wood stove) doesn't require a breaker. How
>are you with -40 in winter ;-)
Pretty good, actually. I was in NH about 30 years ago on a job
interview, it hit -20 that night and I was comfortable in a
windbreaker. (Wifey said not only Nyet but Hell Nyet!). I've gotten
a little softer with age but I was in northern Indiana last winter
when it hit -22. With my Carhart jacket on, it was refreshing.
I can't do heat, though. Strange coming from a Southern born and bred
feller but 'tis true.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-04-04, 1:25 pm |
| On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:05:04 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:57:04 -0400, "Steve Spence"
><sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>Pretty good, actually. I was in NH about 30 years ago on a job
>interview, it hit -20 that night and I was comfortable in a
>windbreaker.
INSIDE, I assume :-)
> (Wifey said not only Nyet but Hell Nyet!). I've gotten
>a little softer with age but I was in northern Indiana last winter
>when it hit -22. With my Carhart jacket on, it was refreshing.
>
>I can't do heat, though. Strange coming from a Southern born and bred
>feller but 'tis true.
>
>John
>---
>John De Armond
>See my website for m | | |