Alternative Power sources - Solar Dish Steam Turbine Electric Generator

Author

Solar Dish Steam Turbine Electric Generator

Duane C. Johnson

2007-04-15, 9:25 am

Hi All;

C. Christopher Newton is one of my solar tracker
customers. (OK, the tracker in only a minor component
in the system.)

This is a beautiful example of a Solar Dish Steam
Turbine Electric Generator. This was his masters
thesis project which was on a concentrated solar
thermal steam system. In the appendices of the paper,
you will find the diagrams for the steam turbine.
With the proper amount of steam supplied, the
turbine is capable of 5 hp.

http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm#newton
Note! The paper is quite long at 178 .PDF pages.

Maybe this design will spur more development in
solar thermal electric generation.

Duane

--
Home of the $35 Solar Tracker Receiver
http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm [*]
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Arnold Walker

2007-04-16, 9:25 am

"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@redrok.com> wrote in message
news:46222BDB.4010801@redrok.com...
> Hi All;
>
> C. Christopher Newton is one of my solar tracker
> customers. (OK, the tracker in only a minor component
> in the system.)
>
> This is a beautiful example of a Solar Dish Steam
> Turbine Electric Generator. This was his masters
> thesis project which was on a concentrated solar
> thermal steam system. In the appendices of the paper,
> you will find the diagrams for the steam turbine.
> With the proper amount of steam supplied, the
> turbine is capable of 5 hp.
>
> http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm#newton
> Note! The paper is quite long at 178 .PDF pages.
>
> Maybe this design will spur more development in
> solar thermal electric generation.
>
> Duane
>
> --
> Home of the $35 Solar Tracker Receiver
> http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm [*]
> Powered by \ \ \ //|
> Thermonuclear Solar Energy from the Sun / |
> Energy (the SUN) \ \ \ / / |
> Red Rock Energy \ \ / / |
> Duane C. Johnson Designer \ \ / \ / |
> 1825 Florence St Heliostat,Control,& Mounts |
> White Bear Lake, Minnesota === \ / \ |
> USA 55110-3364 === \ |
> (651)426-4766 use Courier New Font \ |
> redrok@redrok.com (my email: address) \ |
> http://www.redrok.com (Web site) ===
Somewhat puzzled on why he used a steam turbine instead a piston
unit for that low of a power unit.
Would have thought that a 5hpSirius model scale uniflow patterned after the
old Westinghouse
200-3000hp utility company steam piston generators.
Both runs about 200 pounds of steam at full power and Sirius would be reving
at up to 9000rpms at output..
Could also see collector(or whatever he called his boiler) operating as a
LaMonte instead......figure about 1/3 physical size of his unit.
Maybe even incorporating kalina cycle....mixing in ammonia at the stand
pipe/tank for the LaMonte to bottom out
the temperature enorgh to run continuous......

Inspite of picking his design to pieces...... it did look like a good start
on a steamplant design for a guy as far into solar as I am on biomass.

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Neon John

2007-04-16, 1:25 pm

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:56:48 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
<arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote:

>Somewhat puzzled on why he used a steam turbine instead a piston
>unit for that low of a power unit.
>Would have thought that a 5hpSirius model scale uniflow patterned after the
>old Westinghouse
> 200-3000hp utility company steam piston generators.
>Both runs about 200 pounds of steam at full power and Sirius would be reving
>at up to 9000rpms at output..

Just one of so many things wrong with that project that I lost count.
I'm not criticizing the student - he was supposed to be learning. I'm
criticizing his academic supervision. Unfortunately they probably
have less of a clue about this stuff than the student did. Sorry,
sore topic, as I've been the recipient way too many times of what the
educational system turns out - larvae engineers who are pretty much
useless.

>Could also see collector(or whatever he called his boiler) operating as a
>LaMonte instead......figure about 1/3 physical size of his unit.
>Maybe even incorporating kalina cycle....mixing in ammonia at the stand
>pipe/tank for the LaMonte to bottom out
>the temperature enorgh to run continuous......

Umm, that might be a bit much for a student project. And given the
silly chemophobia rampant in academic circles these days, had he used
something a evilly toxic as ammonia, they'd have probably forced him
to work in a hermetic containment cell.

>Inspite of picking his design to pieces...... it did look like a good start
>on a steamplant design for a guy as far into solar as I am on biomass.

Not really. Given the gazillions of dollars and man-hours spent
researching and optimizing steam cycles, even a little research in the
area would have steered him away from his approach. On several
levels. A single stage impulse turbine built from purchased plans is
probably the worst error. Slowing it down the second. wasting power
in a gearbox instead of using a high speed brushless alternator the
third. Low temperature/pressure design, given the quality of heat at
the focus of that reflector, the forth. Etc.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

cnewton82@gmail.com

2007-06-11, 5:25 pm

On Apr 16, 9:16 am, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:56:48 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
>
> <arnoldwal...@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
> Just one of so many things wrong with that project that I lost count.
> I'm not criticizing the student - he was supposed to be learning. I'm
> criticizing his academic supervision. Unfortunately they probably
> have less of a clue about this stuff than the student did. Sorry,
> sore topic, as I've been the recipient way too many times of what the
> educational system turns out - larvae engineers who are pretty much
> useless.
>
>
> Umm, that might be a bit much for a student project. And given the
> silly chemophobia rampant in academic circles these days, had he used
> something a evilly toxic as ammonia, they'd have probably forced him
> to work in a hermetic containment cell.
>
>
> Not really. Given the gazillions of dollars and man-hours spent
> researching and optimizing steam cycles, even a little research in the
> area would have steered him away from his approach. On several
> levels. A single stage impulse turbine built from purchased plans is
> probably the worst error. Slowing it down the second. wasting power
> in a gearbox instead of using a high speed brushless alternator the
> third. Low temperature/pressure design, given the quality of heat at
> the focus of that reflector, the forth. Etc.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
> Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

I agree there was a lot wrong with the project. I am the student who
did the project. 1) I had very limited time to do the project in
with very little funding, and 2) My professor was of no help and was
out of the country for the majority of the time. I was originally in
jet propulsion systems and got thrown on this project. There were a
lot of things which I would have preferred to have done differently in
this project, however, I had strict constraints and price range to
stay in... one of which was having to use plain water, and the dish
used was because it was the only one I could get donated. My
professor preferred to reinvent the wheel than to let myself try to go
with a more advanced system.

TheDoc

2007-06-11, 8:25 pm

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:fj77235sv22mpeu7c2sbcjhpl064vskgv9@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:56:48 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
> <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Just one of so many things wrong with that project that I lost count.
> I'm not criticizing the student - he was supposed to be learning. I'm
> criticizing his academic supervision. Unfortunately they probably
> have less of a clue about this stuff than the student did. Sorry,
> sore topic, as I've been the recipient way too many times of what the
> educational system turns out - larvae engineers who are pretty much
> useless.
>
>
> Umm, that might be a bit much for a student project. And given the
> silly chemophobia rampant in academic circles these days, had he used
> something a evilly toxic as ammonia, they'd have probably forced him
> to work in a hermetic containment cell.
>
>
> Not really. Given the gazillions of dollars and man-hours spent
> researching and optimizing steam cycles, even a little research in the
> area would have steered him away from his approach. On several
> levels. A single stage impulse turbine built from purchased plans is
> probably the worst error. Slowing it down the second. wasting power
> in a gearbox instead of using a high speed brushless alternator the
> third. Low temperature/pressure design, given the quality of heat at
> the focus of that reflector, the forth. Etc.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
> Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

Perhaps.. but give the guy a break..

perhaps you would care to publish your masters or PhD for us to critique ???

Lee

2007-06-12, 8:25 pm

Mr Newton,

I had a good read of your paper. I thought it was very well
documented and the dish well built. The only thing I thought odd was
the low efficiency (I think about 1.94%). I would have thought you'd
get around 10%. I would have thought that a dish would produce
enough heat to make water a good working fluid.

Regards,

Lee.

On Jun 12, 7:30 am, cnewto...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 16, 9:16 am, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree there was a lot wrong with the project. I am the student who
> did the project. 1) I had very limited time to do the project in
> with very little funding, and 2) My professor was of no help and was
> out of the country for the majority of the time. I was originally in
> jet propulsion systems and got thrown on this project. There were a
> lot of things which I would have preferred to have done differently in
> this project, however, I had strict constraints and price range to
> stay in... one of which was having to use plain water, and the dish
> used was because it was the only one I could get donated. My
> professor preferred to reinvent the wheel than to let myself try to go
> with a more advanced system.

Duane C. Johnson

2007-06-12, 8:25 pm

Hi Lee;

Lee <lwright@intercoast.com.au> wrote:

> Mr Newton,

> I had a good read of your paper. I thought it was
> very well documented and the dish well built.

I think so to.
That's why I posted it on my web pages:
http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm#newton

> The only thing I thought odd was the low efficiency
> (I think about 1.94%). I would have thought you'd
> get around 10%. I would have thought that a dish
> would produce enough heat to make water a good
> working fluid.

Actually the dish and steam generator is doing just
about as expected. I suspect the turbine was capable
of 10% or better.

I think the stumbling block is in the electric
generator. It was not capable of generating the 500W
or more that the turbine was capable of producing.

> Regards,
> Lee.

Duane

--
Home of the $35 Solar Tracker Receiver
http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm [*]
Powered by \ \ \ //|
Thermonuclear Solar Energy from the Sun / |
Energy (the SUN) \ \ \ / / |
Red Rock Energy \ \ / / |
Duane C. Johnson Designer \ \ / \ / |
1825 Florence St Heliostat,Control,& Mounts |
White Bear Lake, Minnesota === \ / \ |
USA 55110-3364 === \ |
(651)426-4766 use Courier New Font \ |
redrok@redrok.com (my email: address) \ |
http://www.redrok.com (Web site) ===

Steve Cothran

2007-06-13, 9:25 am

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:56:24 -0500, "Duane C. Johnson"
>I think so to.
>That's why I posted it on my web pages:

If you don't mind, what was the program you used to create the
schematics on the pages? I've been looking for a good package since
Schema disappeared. Thanks.

Duane C. Johnson

2007-06-13, 9:25 am

Hi Steve;

Steve Cothran <fake@fake.com> wrote:

> If you don't mind, what was the program you used to
> create the schematics on the pages?
> I've been looking for a good package since
> Schema disappeared.
> Thanks.

Some were made using "Electronics Workbench".
(Kind of expensive.)

Now I use a cool program called "TinyCAD".
And it's free! Very nice to work with. See:
http://tinycad.sourceforge.net/
It can also produce a bit map image in ".PNG" format.

For posting I then pass the .PNG image through "Paint"
to convert to a .GIF form which is much smaller for
posting.

Finally I pass it through an old copy of Microsoft
Photo Editor to make the background transparent.
BTW, in my opinion Microsoft Photo Editor is in many
was the nicest photo editor around. OK, its not
a high end photo editor but works very nicely. To bad
they removed it from the standard Windows products.

Duane

--
Home of the $35 Solar Tracker Receiver
http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm [*]
Powered by \ \ \ //|
Thermonuclear Solar Energy from the Sun / |
Energy (the SUN) \ \ \ / / |
Red Rock Energy \ \ / / |
Duane C. Johnson Designer \ \ / \ / |
1825 Florence St Heliostat,Control,& Mounts |
White Bear Lake, Minnesota === \ / \ |
USA 55110-3364 === \ |
(651)426-4766 use Courier New Font \ |
redrok@redrok.com (my email: address) \ |
http://www.redrok.com (Web site) ===

Steve Cothran

2007-06-13, 1:25 pm

Thanks, Duane. That's a nice program, and you can't beat the price.

LinkBot