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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > June 2007 > Green Trust's new Listeroid CHP project is off and running
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| Author |
Green Trust's new Listeroid CHP project is off and running
|
|
| Steve Spence 2007-05-31, 9:25 am |
| JKSON Listeroid, 6hp single cylinder diesel
650 rpm
250 amp, 12vdc (nominal) battery charger charging a 1260 ah battery pack
heating domestic and baseboard hot water
Fueled with used fryer oil
Follow the progress at http://www.green-trust.org
CHP - Combined Heat & Power
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
| |
| philkryder 2007-06-01, 3:25 am |
| On May 31, 5:31 am, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
> JKSON Listeroid, 6hp single cylinder diesel
> 650 rpm
> 250 amp, 12vdc (nominal) battery charger charging a 1260 ah battery pack
> heating domestic and baseboard hot water
> Fueled with used fryer oil
>
> Follow the progress athttp://www.green-trust.org
>
> CHP - Combined Heat & Power
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Director, Green-Trusthttp://www.green-trust.org
Great!
What happened with the Detroit?
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-06-01, 9:25 am |
| The detroit was too big for our application. After putting 6000 hours on it,
we traded it to our neighbors who have a farm, and needed a big gen. 6hp is
plenty for us.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"philkryder" <alt.google@Kryder.com> wrote in message
news:1180668531.936301.88860@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On May 31, 5:31 am, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
> Great!
> What happened with the Detroit?
>
| |
| philkryder 2007-06-02, 3:25 am |
| On Jun 1, 5:52 am, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:[color=darkred]
> The detroit was too big for our application. After putting 6000 hours on it,
> we traded it to our neighbors who have a farm, and needed a big gen. 6hp is
> plenty for us.
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Director, Green-Trusthttp://www.green-trust.org"philkryder" <alt.goo...@Kryder.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1180668531.936301.88860@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
do you think that the lister will be more efficient?
how many KW are you getting from it?
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-06-02, 9:25 am |
| The lister will output 3kw at 1/4 gallon of fuel per hour. This is the same
fuel ratio as the Detroit which was 12kw at 1 gallon per hour. Efficiency
appears to be the same, just the size is more appropriate with our needs,
now that we no longer need a gen to directly power loads, our inverter does
that.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"philkryder" <alt.google@Kryder.com> wrote in message
news:1180769985.255953.69460@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> do you think that the lister will be more efficient?
> how many KW are you getting from it?
>
| |
|
| On May 31, 7:31 am, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
> JKSON Listeroid, 6hp single cylinder diesel
> 650 rpm
> 250 amp, 12vdc (nominal) battery charger charging a 1260 ah battery pack
> heating domestic and baseboard hot water
> Fueled with used fryer oil
>
> Follow the progress athttp://www.green-trust.org
>
> CHP - Combined Heat & Power
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Director, Green-Trusthttp://www.green-trust.org
The engine weighs 1000# ? !!!!
What did it cost?
What were you thinking?
| |
|
| On Jun 2, 5:45 am, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
> The lister will output 3kw at 1/4 gallon of fuel per hour. This is the same
> fuel ratio as the Detroit which was 12kw at 1 gallon per hour. Efficiency
> appears to be the same, just the size is more appropriate with our needs,
> now that we no longer need a gen to directly power loads, our inverter does
> that.
My ChangFa R165 and my Jiang Dong 170 burn 2L in over 6 hours. Why is
it using so much fuel?
[color=darkred]
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Director, Green-Trusthttp://www.green-trust.org"philkryder" <alt.goo...@Kryder.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1180769985.255953.69460@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
| |
| Ecnerwal 2007-06-02, 1:25 pm |
| In article <1180803690.743633.45760@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
> My ChangFa R165 and my Jiang Dong 170 burn 2L in over 6 hours.
....While putting out how much power? Loafing and working use different
amounts of diesel. I'd be very surprised if you are generating more than
7.5 KWH during those 6 hours. I'd guess rather less than that, based on
my research into specific fuel consumption rates across various
generators before I bought mine.
> Why is it using so much fuel?
0.0833 US gal/KWH (putting out 3KW for 1 Hour while burning .25 gallon)
is a perfectly reasonable specific rate of consumption, though also one
that can be bettered by nearly 20% through selection of a more efficient
generator.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| Neon John 2007-06-02, 5:25 pm |
| On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:59:03 -0000, Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
>On May 31, 7:31 am, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>The engine weighs 1000# ? !!!!
>
>What did it cost?
>
>What were you thinking?
Didn't you read his website? He went begging again. I suppose that begging IS
technically "sustainable".
Those engines are actually great units. The Brits had a handle on cheap low speed
engine design. here's another setup using Listeroids from a guy a little higher up
the food chain.
http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Save the whales, collect the whole set!
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-06-02, 5:25 pm |
| If you consider a donation to a non-profit "begging", I suppose. Leboise.com
considered it an investment in the future Our sustainable community does
sustainable research. We developed vegetable oil fueled diesel systems over
10 years ago. We have been involved in methane and ethanol development.
Cogen systems, wind turbine technology, etc. Where do the funds come from to
maintain the research materials and staff? From donations, or "begging" as
John so ignorantly put it.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:1qe363t6unjgjsom4go6cmehd2kjqh472k@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:59:03 -0000, Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
>
>
> Didn't you read his website? He went begging again. I suppose that
> begging IS
> technically "sustainable".
>
> Those engines are actually great units. The Brits had a handle on cheap
> low speed
> engine design. here's another setup using Listeroids from a guy a little
> higher up
> the food chain.
>
> http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html
>
> John
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Save the whales, collect the whole set!
>
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2007-06-02, 8:25 pm |
| In article <46611822_5@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
> The lister will output 3kw at 1/4 gallon of fuel per hour. This is the same
> fuel ratio as the Detroit which was 12kw at 1 gallon per hour. Efficiency
> appears to be the same, just the size is more appropriate with our needs,
> now that we no longer need a gen to directly power loads, our inverter does
> that.
Mostly you will find that the efficency of small diesel Gensets, will be
very close to the same, for each unit with similar Piston Displacements.
There is only so many BTU's that can be rung out of the fuel, and diesel
technology, for small engines hasn't really changed in any big way, for
a number of years.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| Neon John 2007-06-03, 3:25 am |
| On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:09:39 -0400, "Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>If you consider a donation to a non-profit "begging", I suppose. Leboise.com
>considered it an investment in the future Our sustainable community does
>sustainable research. We developed vegetable oil fueled diesel systems over
>10 years ago. We have been involved in methane and ethanol development.
>Cogen systems, wind turbine technology, etc. Where do the funds come from to
>maintain the research materials and staff? From donations, or "begging" as
>John so ignorantly put it.
When one strips all the beggary BS away, what one has is a guy and his family playing
rugged pioneer in the backwoods while tinkering with old technology and practicing
the secular religion at the Church of the Environment. Nothing wrong with that. I'm
sure it's a lot of fun.
Where the problem arises is your wrapping yourself in the pompous mantle of "trust"
and your sucking at the public tit to fund your play. Yeah, I know how easy it is to
fudge a little on the application and get 501(c)3 status. Being the son of a CPA, I
also know how hard the IRS comes down on such scams when they catch on. I won't do
it because I hate snitches more than tax frauds but perhaps someone else will drop a
dime... Oh, and lose that "royal we" crap. When you do something, describe it as "I
did" and not "we did". You don't fool anyone with that.
I've been all over your site and I've yet to find a single thing that you've done
that even remotely approaches innovative. Mostly what I see is re-inventing the
wheel, usually poorly, some deception and probably some outright theft.
On the last item, unless you've placed the containers at the restaurant AND confirmed
that the restaurant operator doesn't have a contract with a grease recycler, you're
stealing that used fryer oil.
This is a hot topic in the industry right now and a number of suits have been filed
against oil thieves. When a recycling company puts the waste oil container at a
restaurant and hauls the grease off at no charge, the company requires the operator
to sign a contract that ALL the oil the restaurant produces goes to the recycler.
Waste oil has significant value, value that offsets the cost of the waste oil
container and of picking it up. Waste oil companies get kinda touchy when some
wild-eyed longhairedhippyfreak comes in and starts stealing their property.
Contract terms vary but generally they say something to the effect that title to the
oil transfers when the oil becomes waste. Some say when the oil reaches the waste
oil container and others say when it leaves the fryer. Every one I've seen contains
an exclusivity clause - that is, ALL the waste oil goes to the reprocessor.
In my experience in talking to a lot of 'em, few small restaurant operators realize
that they've signed a contract. Normally no reason to think about it. One arranges
for the tank as part of the opening process and from that time forward, the oil just
magically disappears.
Most either don't remember anything or think that they signed a receipt for the tank.
I took the time to make a copy of my "receipt" (contract) when the first tank was set
at my restaurant. It is, indeed, a contract.
Beyond theft, this waste oil fad is neither environmentally sound (conventionally and
not in reference to Church doctrine) nor scalable. All, that is 100% of the waste
oil produced, is already recycled. It is not a waste product but a valuable chemical
feedstock. All you so-called "veggie oil" advocates are doing is using petty larceny
and lax controls to divert this stuff off to your personal gain. And, of course,
scamming the less informed out of their money for literature, processing kits and
whatnot.
Were there an attempt to turn legitimate - veggie oil consumers putting out their own
containers at restaurants and having restaurant operators cancel their old contracts,
the attempt will fail because it will not scale. In simple terms, restaurants don't
make enough waste oil to make even a minor dent in the demand for motor fuel.
Further, once veggie oil consumers start paying the actual value of the stuff, prices
will soar. The existing consumers, oil reprocessors, will simply start paying
restaurant operators for the oil instead of the current "value of the oil pays for
the disposal" model. And restaurant operators will start taking bids for their
valuable "waste" oil instead of giving it away. I've read in trade journals that this
is already happening in some areas, driven by the high value of waste oil to
established uses.
Once veggie oil hobbyists start having to pay the fair market value of the oil, it
suddenly becomes much less attractive than what one gets at the fuel pump.
On a more global scale, burning seed oil for fuel simply won't scale either.
Especially if the government quits subsidizing over-production of seed oils,
particularly corn and soybean. If the government gets out of the way and lets the
market control prices and if any significant new demand develops for seed fuel oil
then the price MUST rise. That hurts us all because the price increase will drive up
the cost of all sorts of things, from food to plastics.
Sure there is room for some increase in production of oil seeds but not that much.
And once the idle acres are planted, the same environmental lunatic fringe that is
promoting veggie oil will howl about cutting down forests (that they don't own, of
course) to make more farmland.
Methane production? (why do you environuts have to tag stuff with the "bio" prefix?
Pretty much all methane, from the stuff that comes out of the ground called natural
gas to cow farts is "biomethane". Or just methane. Adding syllables makes you sound
more important, I suppose.) Ancient and mature technology. If you were serious about
it you'd conduct a literature search instead of playing at taxpayer's expense.
If you researched the past, you'd know that by the turn of the last century, GE,
Westinghouse and Delco among others were making and selling packaged waste-fueled and
producer-gas-fueled power plants. These ranged from small "lighting plants" of a
couple KW capacity up to over 100KW capacity to supply power to remote towns. I have
a sales brochure from GE from 1921 (I collect old technical literature and books)
that shows a broad line of plants.
With the methane plants, the farmer shoveled shit in one end and electricity came out
the other. The producer gas plants made producer gas (CO and methane) by passing
steam over hot coal, coke, charcoal or even wood chips) in a "cracker" and that gas
fueled the large spark-ignited piston engine that drove the generator. Again, shovel
whatever available solid fuel in one and electricity comes out the other end.
The interesting thing is that the brochure brags that electricity can be made for "as
little as 7 cents a KWH"! According to the government's inflation calculator
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl, that figures out to 81 cents per KWH in
today's dollars!!!! That would make even a Californian choke. I think I'll stay
with TVA's mostly nuclear (in my area) generated 7 cent power.
Even if methane production could somehow be price competitive with conventional
power, it wouldn't scale, again for the simple reason that there just isn't enough
stuff to feed the process with. At best, methane power is a niche product, fitting
in where there is an existing source of almost free methane, such as garbage dumps.
One of the most vivid memories of my very early childhood was when the REA and TVA
brought electricity to my great-grand-parents' remote farm in Alabama. Granddad was
SOOO happy to get rid of that Delco lighting plant and Grandmom thrilled to have an
electric washing machine to replace that gasoline-powered Maytag that seemed to never
start. I very much doubt that many people want to spent much of their lives
operating power plants and otherwise provide basic needs. Labor-saving is what it's
all about, after all.
The sad thing is, Steve, that out of ignorance, you're stumbling around in the dark
re-enacting history without even knowing it. Similar to the War for Southern
Independence re-enactors except that THEY know that they're playing AND they do their
homework.
So yeah, you went begging again to get someone else to fund your play when you begged
for that Listeroid. The unintended consequence of that "gift" is that it made Le
Boise' look financially foolish and therefore not a company where I'd want to spend
my money.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
| |
| philkryder 2007-06-03, 3:25 am |
| On Jun 2, 5:45 pm, Bruce in Alaska <bru...@btpost.net> wrote:
> In article <4661182...@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
> "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
> Mostly you will find that the efficency of small diesel Gensets, will be
> very close to the same, for each unit with similar Piston Displacements.
> There is only so many BTU's that can be rung out of the fuel, and diesel
> technology, for small engines hasn't really changed in any big way, for
> a number of years.
>
> Bruce in alaska
> --
> add a <2> before @
Bruce - do the 2 Cycle Detroits do as well as the 4 cycle Listers at
lower RPM?
I would think that there would be some additional parasitic loss to
power the blower...
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-06-03, 3:25 am |
| Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>Were there an attempt to turn legitimate - veggie oil consumers putting out
>their own containers at restaurants and having restaurant operators cancel
>their old contracts, the attempt will fail because it will not scale. In
>simple terms, restaurants don't make enough waste oil to make even a minor
>dent in the demand for motor fuel...
>
>On a more global scale, burning seed oil for fuel simply won't scale either...
>With the methane plants, the farmer shoveled shit in one end and electricity
>came out the other... Even if methane production could somehow be price
>competitive with conventional power, it wouldn't scale, again for the simple
>reason that there just isn't enough stuff to feed the process with. At best,
>methane power is a niche product, fitting in where there is an existing
>source of almost free methane, such as garbage dumps...
Why do things have to "scale"? What does that mean? Is Steve claiming or
do you believe that some single solution must be the answer to all our
energy problems? Niches seem fine to me, as appropriate, for instance,
locally-grown food, where that makes sense, vs growing 90% of what we eat
in a single county in California and trucking it all over the US.
My farmer friend Barry grows about 50 acres of tomatoes and corn and other
vegetables and sells them at a roadside stand in summertime. Does this fail
to scale because he doesn't also sell corn in wintertime, or because he
doesn't sell oranges, or because he doesn't have 3,000 vegetable stands? :-)
Nick
| |
| Neon John 2007-06-03, 9:25 am |
| On 3 Jun 2007 03:16:06 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>Why do things have to "scale"? What does that mean? Is Steve claiming or
>do you believe that some single solution must be the answer to all our
>energy problems? Niches seem fine to me, as appropriate, for instance,
>locally-grown food, where that makes sense, vs growing 90% of what we eat
>in a single county in California and trucking it all over the US.
They don't unless you're proposing to save the world with your work and sucking down
taxpayer money and begging others for stuff in the process. If Spence presents
himself to the world as "hey, look at the neat things I'm doing to accommodate my
chosen lifestyle" then I'd have absolutely no problem. It's that "trust" thing and
the 501(c)3 thing and the begging thing and the (probable) theft of veggie oil thing
and all that blather about "sustainability" and a few others that bothers me. If he
claims that burning veggie oil for power is "sustainable" for him then he should be
growing the oil crop and pressing the oil to demonstrate same. If, as he now claims,
burning restaurant waste oil is "sustainable" then it damn well better scale so that
more than 3 or 4 people in a town can do it. At least if he's to have any
credibility.
>
>My farmer friend Barry grows about 50 acres of tomatoes and corn and other
>vegetables and sells them at a roadside stand in summertime. Does this fail
>to scale because he doesn't also sell corn in wintertime, or because he
>doesn't sell oranges, or because he doesn't have 3,000 vegetable stands? :-)
Of course not. I bet Barry isn't claiming to save the world nor is he suckling off
the public tit while claiming some sort of societal good.
A lot of the stuff I do doesn't scale either. It was never meant to. I find
solutions to my particular problems using the materials at hand and my particular
skill set. I publish as many as I have time for on my web site so that perhaps
others can learn from my experience or maybe just be entertained. I'm not saving the
world or even my next door neighbor (until the power goes off and out comes the
extension cord :-) And I damned sure don't go begging for stuff to play with.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Nuke the Whales!
| |
|
| On Jun 2, 10:49 pm, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> So yeah, you went begging again to get someone else to fund your play whe=
n you begged
> for that Listeroid. The unintended consequence of that "gift" is that i=
t made Le
> Boise' look financially foolish and therefore not a company where I'd wan=
t to spend
> my money.
Yeah, well, on behalf of Le Bois=E9 Alternatives Inc, a Quebec-based
licensed electrical, plumbing and millwright contractor with the
mission statement of only being involved in renewable energy projects,
I'm afraid losing your future business ain't gonna keep me up at
night, sorry.
Amusingly, you vented your opinion without asking what services and
incentives GreenTrust offered in exchange for our partial funding of
the Lister, what the level of investment was, and how it was
negotiated.
As company president, it is my job to decide where our advertising
dollars are spent. And frankly, the cost of the GreenTrust generator
is on par with a half-page ad in any number of small cottage
magazines. And far less than our ad in the Yellow Pages.
And, as Le Bois=E9 Alternatives won a government sponsored, province
wide award as one of the most promising new enterprises in Quebec, as
judged by a board of industry and financial experts through many
interviews, presentations, and business plan analysis, I'd say I'm a
better judge of where to spend Le Bois=E9's funds than most folks.
DJ MacIntyre
President, Le Bois=E9 Alternatives Inc
(613)282-VOLT
Www.LeBoise.Com
DJ@LeBoise.Com
| |
| Vaughn Simon 2007-06-03, 9:25 am |
|
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:aj54631f0vuok0gkebaa8ikni65cmdlkbq@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:09:39 -0400, "Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org>
> wrote:
I (very respectfully) wish we could please stick to the subject. I am sure
that there are other groups more appropriate for discussing tax law. Private
e-mail is also much more appropriate for flames.
Just my vote, but let's please keep it constructive and keep it about
homepower. Whatever you guys think of each other's private affairs, you both
are very unique individuals that have much knowledge to offer the group.
Vaughn
| |
|
| On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:20:51 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
<vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote:
>
>"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
>news:aj54631f0vuok0gkebaa8ikni65cmdlkbq@4ax.com...
>
> Whatever you guys think of each other's private affairs, you both
>are very unique individuals that have much knowledge to offer the group.
I wouldn't put any money on John having "much" knowledge. It's
hilarious that he's irrelevantly criticizing one poster for a lack of
innovation, and pounding out faulty and dickish business promotion
advice for another on the same day he mentions his "unique" energy
auditing biz that uses a house meter. I might risk a buck that he's
taken a PR course at Swinburne though. :-)
Wayne
| |
|
|
Come on you guys, I'm seeing inappropriate posts by people who I'm
normally happy to learn from.
Andrew Heggie
| |
| Bruce Gordon 2007-06-03, 1:25 pm |
| In article <1180848063.109648.93280@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
philkryder <alt.google@Kryder.com> wrote:
> On Jun 2, 5:45 pm, Bruce in Alaska <bru...@btpost.net> wrote:
>
> Bruce - do the 2 Cycle Detroits do as well as the 4 cycle Listers at
> lower RPM?
>
> I would think that there would be some additional parasitic loss to
> power the blower...
>
>
>
>
A 2-71 Jimmy isn't really considered a SMALL diesel, more like a
Intermediate size since they can turn 20Kw genends. I am speaking
of single and small twins like the Lister Twin Air Cooled's, and
the China's in the 3Kw to 7 Kw range. Anything bigger than 15Kw
isn't SMALL, and 71's have BIG Pistons, when compared with the
Listers and China's and of course all their Clones. My Onan
xDJA's, and their Twin brothers the xDJB/E's are what I consider
in the SMALL range, where the xDJC/F's are really in the Intermediate
Size range, and of course the amount fuel they burn is coorespondingly
larger.
Detroits were designed during WWII to be "Disposable" Engines. Easy to
rebuild in the field, cheap to produce, and with many of the parts
interchangable between the different configurations. They were never,
ever, designed to be Fuel Efficent, or for Long Operational Lifetimes.
You have to do rebuilds on a Jimmy, about twice as often as any 4 Cycle
Diesel, when operating in the same power and load range. You NEVER
see a JImmy with 30K Operational Hours on them, where that is a
fairly typical EnFrame rebuild on any quality 4 cycle diesel engine
that I have worked on. I just lost my last Northern Lights 854b
20Kw Genset this spring and it had 60K hours on it. Parts are no
longer available for it so it is heading for the Scrap Metal Pile
to sit next to it's Twin that died 18 months ago with within
30 Hours of the same 60K Operational Hours on it. Both died in the
exact same Failure Mode. Center Main Bearing Failed, 500 hours before
they siezed. The Oil Pressure never changed during operation, and the
only indicator of a problem was that the Genset would "Spin Down"
upon shutdown faster as the failed Bearings drag bleed off the rotational
faster due to increased friction. Anyone want to buy a couple of
Lima 20Kw Genends ????
Bruce in alaska
--
Bruce (semiretired powderman & exFCC Field Inspector for Southeastern Alaska)
add a <2> before @
Bruce Gordon * Debora Gordon R.N. Bruce's Trading Post
P.O. Box EXI Excursion Inlet South
Juneau, Alaska 99850 Excursion Inlet, Alaska 99850
www.btpost.net www.99850.net
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-06-03, 5:25 pm |
| Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
[color=darkred]
>They don't unless you're proposing to save the world with your work
Steve promised that? Can't we save the world in small pieces?
In reinventing the wheel, Steve may invent something new. A lot
of things have changed since the 1930s: technology, materials,
microcomputers, economics, and so on.
>and sucking down taxpayer money and begging others for stuff in the process.
Almost everyone does that. Consider churches and PV subsidies.
Can we run an economy by picking each others' pockets? :-)
>
>Of course not. I bet Barry isn't claiming to save the world
True. He just supports himself and his family. His barely makes money, but
his vegetables have a lot less embodied energy than California vegetables.
>nor is he suckling off the public tit while claiming some sort of
>societal good.
He provides food with farm subsidies and rents ground from people who get
a 60% property tax reduction because they are not growing Wal-Marts,
because that's what the majority of the people voted for.
>A lot of the stuff I do doesn't scale either. It was never meant to.
>I find solutions to my particular problems using the materials at hand
>and my particular skill set...
Good. Steve does that too.
>And I damned sure don't go begging for stuff to play with.
Go ahead. It's the American Way, as determined by consenting adults.
Nick
It is the duty of every citizen to pay all the taxes he owes,
but not one single penny more. -- Justice Learned Hand
| |
| dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com 2007-06-04, 9:25 am |
| On Jun 3, 3:09 am, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
> If you consider a donation to a non-profit "begging", I suppose.
i don't have heartburn with donations. just another religion, or
perhaps two ricebowls (yours and the quebecker's)
meeting gently in the night.
just out of curiousity, will you make a statement about the property
rights you have to the veggy oil you use?
| |
| dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com 2007-06-04, 9:25 am |
| > My farmer friend Barry grows about 50 acres of tomatoes and corn and other
> vegetables and sells them at a roadside stand in summertime. Does this fail
> to scale because he doesn't also sell corn in wintertime, or because he
> doesn't sell oranges, or because he doesn't have 3,000 vegetable stands? :-)
if i understand the complaint correctly, it is that the local
vegetables actually are more expensive than the trucked in ones.
i'm not saying they are, i'm saying that's the complaint. As for
me, I think you should pay an extra tax for taking corn away from
ethanol plants. You're so greedy. Just a perfect example of why non-
profit organizations should be allowed to intervene. It only costs a
few percentage points of added price!!!
let the free market decide who's tastes better. and may that test
be actually conducted by statistically-fair, double-blind testing.
The food technologists do it all the time.
and what if your kids have access to those great local vegetables, and
inner-city kids don't, because there aren't sufficient local-yokal
truck farmers? shouldn't that problem be addressed by the greatest,
most justice-loving minds in congres? maybe Barry's tomatoes need to
be rationed out fairly. Hey, let's punish nicksan-like hoarders who
won't share! And maybe we should force Barry to move to Bed-Stuy....
green-ness is a trust, you know!
Of course, if Barry will contribute to the Green-trust, then only good
will ever be spoken of him. That's the system. Give them a genset,
get a nice write up. It;'s so different than the business ethics
of those naughty Big Oil companies!
When I do it, it's grass roots organizing. When you do it, it's
special interest lobbying.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-06-04, 9:25 am |
| <dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com> wrecklessly wrote:
>
> if i understand the complaint correctly, it is that the local
>vegetables actually are more expensive than the trucked in ones...
They are, but nobody's complaining about that. Corn picked 5 minutes ago
tastes better than faraway corn, and the lower embodied energy makes you
feel ecological *all over*.
Nick
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-06-04, 9:25 am |
| Sure. We have a signed contract with the restaurants, we provide the
barrels, and we don't leave a mess. John's just making stuff up because he
didn't get a cool engine.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
<dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180953448.576245.242370@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 3, 3:09 am, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
> i don't have heartburn with donations. just another religion, or
> perhaps two ricebowls (yours and the quebecker's)
> meeting gently in the night.
>
> just out of curiousity, will you make a statement about the property
> rights you have to the veggy oil you use?
>
| |
|
| On Jun 2, 1:50 pm, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:59:03 -0000, Todd <T...@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Didn't you read his website? He went begging again. I suppose that begging IS
> technically "sustainable".
>
> Those engines are actually great units. The Brits had a handle on cheap low speed
> engine design. here's another setup using Listeroids from a guy a little higher up
> the food chain.
>
> http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html
I can get 6 German designed engines for that $1,500 and each will put
out more than 3kw. So I'm getting 15kw where he's getting 3kw,
regardless of how he gets them. Further, the German designed engines
don't weigh 1500#. I can pick one up all by myself.
| |
|
| > On the last item, unless you've placed the containers at the restaurant AND confirmed
> that the restaurant operator doesn't have a contract with a grease recycler, you're
> stealing that used fryer oil.
I continue to be amazed by these poetic leaps. If I burned diesel in
my engine it would cost me about $60 per month. If I was on the grid
it would cost me about $8 per month (until they set the $20 minimum
and add the Christmas Tree of taxes). The reason my bill is so low is
because I have 1' thick insulation in my house.
I live in Texas ... still a relatively free country. I get my oil from
small convenience stores and bars that discard 5 to 10 gallons per
week. I don't know how they were getting rid of it before but they
seem genuinely happy to give it to me now. In one case I gave them two
5 gallon pails. They pump the oil hot into these which goes much
faster than pumping it cold into the cubes. I then just pick up those
two pails each week and pour them into a tank (metal garbage can) in
the back of my pickup truck. I do it on the way to work.
If I could be on the grid, I would be. I would even burn $60 in diesel
each month before I would try to meet that potential with PVs and more
batteries. But now I've got the WVO alternative working pretty slick.
My strategy all started by realizing that the smaller engine the
better, because the batteries can't take current any faster than they
want it ... everything else is wasted. That's why Spences 12kw engine
was such an obvious flaw in understanding, at the same time he was
criticizing me for "bad design".
The noise and mess from these engines is so easily hidden, those
arguments don't play. It's really an all around good solution.
I think my strategy is pretty safe regardless of what happens to the
demand for WVO. I would expect it to always be cheaper than diesel,
and the cost of using diesel will always be acceptable to me.
Re, the black tank solution for hot water: That solution is easily
applied wherever deed restrictions allow out buildings (like for the
storage of lawn mowers or green houses). Just put a clear panel in the
roof and put the black tank in the building. Insulate the building and
you'll get superior performance over just setting it out in the sun.
| |
| no spam 2007-06-04, 1:25 pm |
| >>> My farmer friend Barry grows about 50 acres of tomatoes and corn and
>
> They are, but nobody's complaining about that. Corn picked 5 minutes ago
> tastes better than faraway corn, and the lower embodied energy makes you
> feel ecological *all over*.
True, which is why frozen corn taste better than the 'fresh' stuff you get
at the local market. The from field to freezer time is much shorter than
the field to storage to market shelf.
| |
| Neon John 2007-06-04, 8:25 pm |
| On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:39:55 -0000, Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
>
>I can get 6 German designed engines for that $1,500 and each will put
>out more than 3kw. So I'm getting 15kw where he's getting 3kw,
>regardless of how he gets them. Further, the German designed engines
>don't weigh 1500#. I can pick one up all by myself.
>
Yah, and when your german designed engines have been recycled a few times, your
grandchildren will be using that Listeroid. And when the Listeroid is running it
makes a gentle 'chuff chuff chuff" instead of the bellow that even an 1800 RPM diesel
makes.
I have a 10KW generator that I designed and built around a 22 HP Riggeroni aircooled
high speed diesel. I picked it up for almost nothing so I used it. It runs like a
scalded dog and will for a couple-three thousand hours. Maybe a little more. Then
it'll be worn out. In the meantime it makes so much mechanical noise as to be
irritating even inside a block building. I wouldn't dare put anything but diesel
fuel in this thing, given the precision of the tiny injectors and pumps.
When I get my Listeroid (after paying for it, of course), It'll replace the Riggeroni
on this generator. The generator will, of course, not be portable anymore (the
present one is mounted on a heavy-duty 2 wheeled handtruck and can be rolled to the
load.) but it will be quiet, reliable, efficient and will burn pretty much anything I
throw at it. Listers didn't gain their legendary reputation in the third world by
being picky about what they were fed. And when parts wear out, I'll reach up on the
shelf to get from my inexpensively purchased inventory what I need. No $500
injectors or $200 voltage regulators!
Besides, a Listeroid's got soul. Can't say that about those german/chicom units.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.
| |
|
| On 3 Jun 2007 15:38:18 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Can't we save the world in small pieces?
Kind of. We're already at the point where most can't drive a stick
shift or change a faucet washer . So even a little of the most basic
education can go a long way. For example, some years back a guy asked
me if his new drill press could handle steel or if was limited to
drilling wood. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit. ;-)
>In reinventing the wheel, Steve may invent something new
Great if he does but still great if he doesn't. Most readers of sites
like Steve's aren't looking for new inventions. They want to see
proven projects they can relate to and maybe even build.
Wayne
| |
|
| On Jun 4, 4:20 pm, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:39:55 -0000, Todd <T...@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yah, and when your german designed engines have been recycled a few times, your
> grandchildren will be using that Listeroid. And when the Listeroid is running it
> makes a gentle 'chuff chuff chuff" instead of the bellow that even an 1800 RPM diesel
> makes.
Well, it again looks like someone here is making another inexperienced
poetic leap. My Jiang Dong 170 does not run at 1800 RPM ... it runs at
about 900 RPM. It does not scream, it just kind of putt-putts.
Rebuilding is simple because the design is simple. Being far lighter
than the Listeroid, it is far easier for one person to do the rebuild.
The Listeroid must have the same issues I've had with coking on my
engines. In fact, it will likely be worse because of the additional
mass, it will take longer to warm up. Coking is the only problem I've
had with my German designed engines.
I too am stocking up on parts. And likely at 1/6th the cost of
Listeroid parts. New injectors are less than $10.
John ... you need to do your homework before you carry on a strawman
debate with yourself.
| |
| Neon John 2007-06-05, 1:25 pm |
| On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:53:22 -0000, Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
>
>Well, it again looks like someone here is making another inexperienced
>poetic leap. My Jiang Dong 170 does not run at 1800 RPM ... it runs at
>about 900 RPM. It does not scream, it just kind of putt-putts.
>
>Rebuilding is simple because the design is simple. Being far lighter
>than the Listeroid, it is far easier for one person to do the rebuild.
>
>The Listeroid must have the same issues I've had with coking on my
>engines. In fact, it will likely be worse because of the additional
>mass, it will take longer to warm up. Coking is the only problem I've
>had with my German designed engines.
>
>I too am stocking up on parts. And likely at 1/6th the cost of
>Listeroid parts. New injectors are less than $10.
>
>John ... you need to do your homework before you carry on a strawman
>debate with yourself.
>
The Chang Fa is also a German designed, ChiCom made engine that is high speed. That's
the one usually talked about in the context of "german designed diesels". Never heard
of yours. Any pointers.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Risk: $20 hooker, year old condom.
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2007-06-05, 8:25 pm |
| In article <1181040802.767091.147530@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 4:20 pm, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
> Well, it again looks like someone here is making another inexperienced
> poetic leap. My Jiang Dong 170 does not run at 1800 RPM ... it runs at
> about 900 RPM. It does not scream, it just kind of putt-putts.
>
> Rebuilding is simple because the design is simple. Being far lighter
> than the Listeroid, it is far easier for one person to do the rebuild.
>
> The Listeroid must have the same issues I've had with coking on my
> engines. In fact, it will likely be worse because of the additional
> mass, it will take longer to warm up. Coking is the only problem I've
> had with my German designed engines.
>
> I too am stocking up on parts. And likely at 1/6th the cost of
> Listeroid parts. New injectors are less than $10.
>
> John ... you need to do your homework before you carry on a strawman
> debate with yourself.
>
>
Just a Note here, A good share of the Chinese built small diesel engines
all come from the Orginal German Benz Design for Single and Twin Cyl
Diesel Engines. The Chinese Government paid Benz a lot of Hard Currency,
back between the World Wars, to transfer the Manufacturing Technology,
so the Chinese could build their own engines. China, like Japan before
them, is very good at reporducing a good Engineered Design, and not so
good at Designing their own stuff. Oh they make Engineering Changes,
like no two runs of engines use the same Bearing Set for Main and Cam
Bearings. They buy the cheapest bearings available at the time, for
each OEM run. I have a CF170 that I am still looking for a Rod Bearing
for, because it uses a size slightly different that just about any of
the others ever built. Just one of those things, about Chinas, that you
have to understnad going in. In the last few years the Chinese have
aquired the Yanmar single cyl design, and are doing Repose on those now.
Lister Clones come mostly from India, where they have some limited QC
and do actually have some reasonable engine lifetimes. Nothing I have
seen in 30 years of operating small diesels, beats my Fairbanks/Morse
45B, however. It is on it's second lifetime, and I will moldy in my
Grave, before it needs to be EnFramed again, running 24/7 for the six
summer months, at a Buddies Cabin in alaska. First lifetime was
documented at 65K hours... Now that is Longevity.....
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
|
| On Jun 5, 12:03 pm, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:53:22 -0000, Todd <T...@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Chang Fa is also a German designed, ChiCom made engine that is high speed. That's
> the one usually talked about in the context of "german designed diesels". Never heard
> of yours.
I don't know what you mean my high speed. I run mine at about 900 RPM.
I don't consider that high speed.
My first engine was the Chang Fa R165. I did my initial experiments on
it so it has taken some pretty serious abuse and I have rebuilt it
several times. I was unable to get a good source for a backup engines
or parts for the Chang Fa so I found the Jiang Dong 170.
It's virtually the same engine though a little higher displacement and
horsepower. Most of the parts are interchangeable but key parts like
pistons, rings, and liners are not. It has bolt on counterweights on
the crank that the R165 does not have, probably related to the higher
HP rating.
My first two 170's were bad. The 6208 ball bearing (the main
bearings) had a void in the forging of the inner race and they just
machined over it. Very quickly the ball frame failed and the engine
failed. I was able to take the remaining good bearings out of the
engines and get one of the two running again. I then replaced the bad
bearings from a local bearing house for about $7 each and got both
engines running and they're still running.
I did just what I've recommended and bought many engines for the price
of the Listeroid being discussed here. Further, I'm able to buy what
I believe to be a 10 year supply of repair parts to service the engine
from what I've saved as well.
> Any pointers.
Don't use WVO for lube oil. It has superior lubricating qualities. I
crank my engines by hand and the reduction in cranking force with WVO
is amazing. But the stuff is sticky and eventually builds up and forms
long gooey chains. If someone has a cure for that I'd switch to WVO
for lube in a second.
I also went to dual fuel (a trivial exercise) and that has helped
mitigate coking and starting problems I incurred.
And most importantly, filter the heck out of the WVO fuel. I filter
mine at least 7 times through a simple GE 5 micron water filter using
gravity. I filter about 5 gallons at a time (one cube) and by the time
I've burned that much, I've thoroughly filtered my next batch. The
process now is little more hassle than taking out the garbage.
Buy the smallest engine you can, but with electric start. You'll never
achieve totally automatic operation (that being my goal) without it.
I'm buying Jiang Dong electric start parts for their smallest engine
to see if I can retro-fit the 170. The factory tells me it's not a
slam dunk.
Todd
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Risk: $20 hooker, year old condom.
| |
|
| > > > Yah, and when your german designed engines have been recycled a few times,
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Just a Note here, A good share of the Chinese built small diesel engines
> all come from the Orginal German Benz Design for Single and Twin Cyl
> Diesel Engines. The Chinese Government paid Benz a lot of Hard Currency,
> back between the World Wars, to transfer the Manufacturing Technology,
> so the Chinese could build their own engines. China, like Japan before
> them, is very good at reporducing a good Engineered Design, and not so
> good at Designing their own stuff. Oh they make Engineering Changes,
> like no two runs of engines use the same Bearing Set for Main and Cam
> Bearings.
> They buy the cheapest bearings available at the time, for
> each OEM run. I have a CF170 that I am still looking for a Rod Bearing
> for, because it uses a size slightly different that just about any of
> the others ever built. Just one of those things, about Chinas, that you
> have to understnad going in.
I doubt that is true. Both my Chang Fa R165 and my Jiang Dong 170 use
the 6208 for the main and 6204 for the cam. They're low cost, off the
shelf items at my local bearing house.
> In the last few years the Chinese have
> aquired the Yanmar single cyl design, and are doing Repose on those now.
> Lister Clones come mostly from India, where they have some limited QC
> and do actually have some reasonable engine lifetimes. Nothing I have
> seen in 30 years of operating small diesels, beats my Fairbanks/Morse
> 45B, however. It is on it's second lifetime, and I will moldy in my
> Grave, before it needs to be EnFramed again, running 24/7 for the six
> summer months, at a Buddies Cabin in alaska. First lifetime was
> documented at 65K hours... Now that is Longevity.....
Are you running it on WVO?
Todd in Texas
>
> Bruce in alaska
| |
| Neon John 2007-06-06, 9:25 am |
| On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 02:04:42 -0000, Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
I meant to engine sources but thanks for the comments anyway.
[color=darkred]
>
>Don't use WVO for lube oil. It has superior lubricating qualities. I
>crank my engines by hand and the reduction in cranking force with WVO
>is amazing. But the stuff is sticky and eventually builds up and forms
>long gooey chains. If someone has a cure for that I'd switch to WVO
>for lube in a second.
I can help some there. WVO really isn't a good lube by tribological standards. It
just feels gooey. I'm not going to attempt to go very deep into tribo because it's
been so long that I'll probably step on my crank on some detail but.. The easier
cranking is a function of why it's not so hot a lube for running - the chains shear
too easily.
The polymerization problem can't really be solved. It bites us restaurant guys on
the other end, crapping up our fryers and grease hoods. The problem is that the
chain nuclei have already formed by the time you get hold of the stuff. We filter
the stuff until it thickens, indicating too many polymer reactions having taken
place, then we dump it.
The only bean oil that I know of that won't polymerize to any extent and is an
excellent lubricant is castor bean oil. Until the synthetics came along, castor oil
was my oil of choice in my racing engines. Lots of problems are attendant. Probably
the worst is the carbon residue from burning is almost rock-hard and almost
impossible to remove except by sand blasting. In a gas engine, the deposits build
rapidly. No idea how it would do in a diesel.
I suggest looking at a full synthetic, even something like Mobil 1, even though it's
not designated a diesel oil. I don't think that would be as much an issue for a low
(compared to car/truck engines) engine. I've never looked to see if there are any
full synthetic diesel oils or not.
>
>I also went to dual fuel (a trivial exercise) and that has helped
>mitigate coking and starting problems I incurred.
>
>And most importantly, filter the heck out of the WVO fuel. I filter
>mine at least 7 times through a simple GE 5 micron water filter using
>gravity. I filter about 5 gallons at a time (one cube) and by the time
>I've burned that much, I've thoroughly filtered my next batch. The
>process now is little more hassle than taking out the garbage.
>
I'm not interested in WVO. Too much like trying to make a purse out of a sow's ear.
Especially when there are other options that would be so much easier to use. Things
like the heavier waste solvents (filter once and use) and so on.
I have grid power and am happy with it. I simply need backup power here in the
mountains (my commercially made generators will do that fine) plus I want something
to tinker with. Besides, there's just something about those old Listers.... And when
I find free fuel that the engine will ingest, the utility breaker will come open and
the generator will be started!
>Buy the smallest engine you can, but with electric start. You'll never
>achieve totally automatic operation (that being my goal) without it.
>I'm buying Jiang Dong electric start parts for their smallest engine
>to see if I can retro-fit the 170. The factory tells me it's not a
>slam dunk.
I've designed a couple of different electric start circuits that used either a
permanent magnet alternator (on a motorcycle) or a conventional car alternator (on a
gas powered welder) as a brushless DC (aka stepper) motor. Neither "motor" generated
a lot of torque because of the bad magnetic circuits but both engines had compression
releases so I could let the "starter" spin the engine up and let the flywheel
actually commence running.
If you're electronically inclined, you might take a look at that option. The
plethora of single-chip BLDC motor drivers would make the design trivial compared to
a board full of discrete logic when I did it.
I've worked with a couple of guys to design and construct auto-start systems for
motorhomes. Basically the same as an off-grid generator-based power system, only
usually with less battery capacity. One used a BASIC Stamp and the other used a tiny
Siemens (I think it was, have to go look it up) programmable logic control. The PLC,
ready to run on 12 to 50 volts DC, only cost about $125 a few years ago so the
PLC-based controller was actually cheaper than the PIC and a LOT easier to program.
When you get your electric start in, say the word and I'll dig through off-line
archives and find the designs.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
What do you call 4 Blondes in an Abrams? Air Tank.
| |
| Steve Ackman 2007-06-06, 1:25 pm |
| In <gcrc63hcsbicbekfct2spm85qjmlm94gdv@4ax.com>, on Wed, 06 Jun 2007
04:42:26 -0400, Neon John wrote:
> I suggest looking at a full synthetic, even something like Mobil 1, even though it's
> not designated a diesel oil. I don't think that would be as much an issue for a low
> (compared to car/truck engines) engine. I've never looked to see if there are any
> full synthetic diesel oils or not.
My diesel Jeep calls for Mobil 1 0W-40... the manual
goes on to say that if you can't get that, Mobil 1
5W-40 is an acceptable substitute.
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2007-06-06, 5:25 pm |
| In article <1181095759.470356.208350@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
[color=darkred]
> Are you running it on WVO?
>
> Todd in Texas
Nope, we use #1 diesels up here in "Cold Country" WVO would be Sludge
at 15F.....
Bruce in alska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-06-06, 8:25 pm |
| We ran the Detroit at -40 on veggie, starting diesel first. simple coolant
heat exchanger and heated filter on the veggie side. Did that for 6000
hours. Will do the same for the listeroid. The listeroid singles are a
simple rebuild for one person. The crank on a twin is a bit tougher. Got to
play with the Detroit 12v92 at the hospital today. Now there is an engine.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"Bruce in Alaska" <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:bruceg-ED6F69.13534106062007@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <1181095759.470356.208350@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> Todd <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
>
>
> Nope, we use #1 diesels up here in "Cold Country" WVO would be Sludge
> at 15F.....
>
> Bruce in alska
> --
> add a <2> before @
| |
| The Tagge's 2007-06-15, 8:25 pm |
| Where did you get your Jiang Dong engines from? Recommended sources?
"Todd" <Todd@WithGLEE.com> wrote in message
news:1181040802.767091.147530@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 4, 4:20 pm, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
> Well, it again looks like someone here is making another inexperienced
> poetic leap. My Jiang Dong 170 does not run at 1800 RPM ... it runs at
> about 900 RPM. It does not scream, it just kind of putt-putts.
>
> Rebuilding is simple because the design is simple. Being far lighter
> than the Listeroid, it is far easier for one person to do the rebuild.
>
> The Listeroid must have the same issues I've had with coking on my
> engines. In fact, it will likely be worse because of the additional
> mass, it will take longer to warm up. Coking is the only problem I've
> had with my German designed engines.
>
> I too am stocking up on parts. And likely at 1/6th the cost of
> Listeroid parts. New injectors are less than $10.
>
> John ... you need to do your homework before you carry on a strawman
> debate with yourself.
>
>
|
|
|
|
|