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Poor Man's Solar Water Heater
|
|
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-06-20, 5:25 pm |
| First, by way of background... I consume a little over 800 litres
(210 U.S. gallons) of heating oil per year for space heating and
domestic hot water purposes. By my estimates, water heating accounts
for over half this amount and a large percentage of this can be
attributed to stack and tank related losses. My hot water consumption
is rather modest and there's probably not a whole lot more I can do to
reduce it any further (well, not without causing marital disharmony,
that is).
And therein lies the rub. I can't justify the cost of installing a
solar how water system when my DHW demand doesn't warrant it.
Furthermore, my roof faces east-west and Halifax isn't known as
Canada's sunshine capital.
That said, on those seemingly few days when the sun does shine (like
today), a regular garden hose is a simple and inexpensive way to tap
into it. As the sun shifts around the back of the house, I roll out
several lengths of hose on the patio and within an hour or so the
water is scalding hot. Using a 10-litre bucket, I then transfer this
water to my front load washer. My fuel oil savings are admittedly
small (perhaps no more than 0.25 litres per washer load), but for
roughly six months of the year I'll have the satisfaction of heating
atleast some my water with the sun and with no out-of-pocket expense.
I can probably extend the season by several weeks if I build a small
solar box and coil the hose inside, but for now simply leaving it
exposed on the ground works well enough.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| Solar Flaire 2007-06-20, 8:25 pm |
| You appeared to have contradicted yourself. You imply poor solar
availability and yet brag how well your garden hose works for hot
water.
Let me tell you, this February (mid Ontario) my home made roof panels
exceeded 105c anytime the sky was clear and the sun was shining
mid-day. Now December and January only grandstanded with about 6 hours
total of sunshine.
"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:pjcj7358bt5l3vuka3e4n2apcb7igks01c@4ax.com...
> First, by way of background... I consume a little over 800 litres
> (210 U.S. gallons) of heating oil per year for space heating and
> domestic hot water purposes. By my estimates, water heating
> accounts
> for over half this amount and a large percentage of this can be
> attributed to stack and tank related losses. My hot water
> consumption
> is rather modest and there's probably not a whole lot more I can do
> to
> reduce it any further (well, not without causing marital disharmony,
> that is).
>
> And therein lies the rub. I can't justify the cost of installing a
> solar how water system when my DHW demand doesn't warrant it.
> Furthermore, my roof faces east-west and Halifax isn't known as
> Canada's sunshine capital.
>
> That said, on those seemingly few days when the sun does shine (like
> today), a regular garden hose is a simple and inexpensive way to tap
> into it. As the sun shifts around the back of the house, I roll out
> several lengths of hose on the patio and within an hour or so the
> water is scalding hot. Using a 10-litre bucket, I then transfer
> this
> water to my front load washer. My fuel oil savings are admittedly
> small (perhaps no more than 0.25 litres per washer load), but for
> roughly six months of the year I'll have the satisfaction of heating
> atleast some my water with the sun and with no out-of-pocket
> expense.
> I can probably extend the season by several weeks if I build a small
> solar box and coil the hose inside, but for now simply leaving it
> exposed on the ground works well enough.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-06-20, 8:25 pm |
| On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:18:08 -0500, "Solar Flaire"
<solarerfat@hotmail.invalidater> wrote:
>You appeared to have contradicted yourself. You imply poor solar
>availability and yet brag how well your garden hose works for hot
>water.
Er, how so? I do laundry on the days that sunshine is available, so
if it rains for five or six days in a row (not uncommon here on the
east coast), the dirty clothes pile up. If I expected my crude solar
hot water system (if I may call it that) to offset some portion of my
bathing and dish washing needs, then I'd obviously have a problem, as
that's not something I can put off for several days at a time.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| Solar Flaire 2007-06-20, 8:25 pm |
| I can't explain it any simpler than I did.
"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:svij735j3v41f8gkrbqk2tbiiuhgt2m89o@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:18:08 -0500, "Solar Flaire"
> <solarerfat@hotmail.invalidater> wrote:
>
>
> Er, how so? I do laundry on the days that sunshine is available, so
> if it rains for five or six days in a row (not uncommon here on the
> east coast), the dirty clothes pile up. If I expected my crude
> solar
> hot water system (if I may call it that) to offset some portion of
> my
> bathing and dish washing needs, then I'd obviously have a problem,
> as
> that's not something I can put off for several days at a time.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-06-20, 9:25 pm |
| On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:09:02 -0500, "Solar Flaire"
<solarerfat@hotmail.invalidater> wrote:
>I can't explain it any simpler than I did.
Then I take it you don't have much of a point, n'est pas?
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-06-20, 9:25 pm |
| On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:18:39 -0400, Paul M. Eldridge
<paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:18:08 -0500, "Solar Flaire"
><solarerfat@hotmail.invalidater> wrote:
>
>
>Er, how so? I do laundry on the days that sunshine is available, so
>if it rains for five or six days in a row (not uncommon here on the
>east coast), the dirty clothes pile up. If I expected my crude solar
>hot water system (if I may call it that) to offset some portion of my
>bathing and dish washing needs, then I'd obviously have a problem, as
>that's not something I can put off for several days at a time.
>
>Cheers,
>Paul
I'll vouch for the unpredictability and general lack of sun in
HazyFax. Of all the times I've been out there, I think I've only had 2
sunny days in a row, mabee ONCE.
Not quite as bad as the "granite planet" to the north west - - - -.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| David Williams 2007-06-20, 9:25 pm |
| -> Er, how so? I do laundry on the days that sunshine is available, so
-> if it rains for five or six days in a row (not uncommon here on the
-> east coast), the dirty clothes pile up.
Put your dirty clothes out in the rain.
dow
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-06-20, 9:25 pm |
| On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:55:36 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>I'll vouch for the unpredictability and general lack of sun in
>HazyFax. Of all the times I've been out there, I think I've only had 2
>sunny days in a row, mabee ONCE.
>
>Not quite as bad as the "granite planet" to the north west - - - -.
Not quite as bad as St. John's, but pretty damn close! (122 foggy days
versus 124) :-)
Here's what Environment Canada has to say:
"Halifax's reputation as a foggy and misty city is well deserved. Each
year there is an average of 122 days with fog at the International
Airport and 101 days at Shearwater, on the Dartmouth side of the
harbour, although on most days fog persists for less than 12 hours.
The period from mid-spring to early summer is the foggiest time. Bands
of thick, cool fog lie off the coast, produced where the chilled air
above the Labrador Current mixes with warm, moisture-laden air moving
onshore from the Gulf Stream."
Source:
http://atlantic-web1.ns.ec.gc.ca/cl...En&n=61405176-1
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| frankb_ca@yahoo.comremovetoreply 2007-06-21, 9:25 am |
| I did something similar to you folks.
I took 300' of garden hose and mounted it on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.
This wasnt elegant. It did get me 63 deg c water though. Too hot to touch.
That was still with no flow.
I hooked this up to my pool, it does heat the water up a couple of degrees.
As a former pressure vessel inspector, I keyed on the note about 105c water.
That, if released, will flash to steam with the attendant dangers. Keep your
volume small
if youre going to go that hot.
Regards.
| |
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|
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| Neon John 2007-06-21, 9:25 am |
| On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:49:37 GMT, frankb_ca@yahoo.comremovetoreply wrote:
>I did something similar to you folks.
>I took 300' of garden hose and mounted it on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.
>This wasnt elegant. It did get me 63 deg c water though. Too hot to touch.
>That was still with no flow.
>I hooked this up to my pool, it does heat the water up a couple of degrees.
>As a former pressure vessel inspector, I keyed on the note about 105c water.
>That, if released, will flash to steam with the attendant dangers. Keep your
>volume small
>if youre going to go that hot.
>Regards.
I have a flat roof on my restaurant building. I took several black rubber industrial
grade hoses and simply tossed them on the roof at random. Black hose on top of black
room == lots of hot water. I connected this hose to the cold water supply and ran a
CPVC pipe from the roof to the dishwashing sink and equipped it with a simple ball
valve. The dishwashing guy would simply turn the valve on and drain all available hot
water. Usually enough to fill the sinks. Much of the dishwashing water used in the
place was heated that way.
For a more permanent installation and more hot water, I'd go back and use that black
semi-rigid direct burial PVC like used in wells. Couple hundred feet of 1.5"
diameter pipe would hold a bunch of hot water.
One could get complicated with pumps and tanks and controls but I found that the
water stayed hot well into the evening so I applied the KISS principle. This was a
non-freezing weather-only affair, of course.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Save the whales, collect the whole set!
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-06-21, 9:25 am |
| On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:49:37 GMT, frankb_ca@yahoo.comremovetoreply
wrote:
>I did something similar to you folks.
>I took 300' of garden hose and mounted it on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.
>This wasnt elegant. It did get me 63 deg c water though. Too hot to touch.
>That was still with no flow.
>I hooked this up to my pool, it does heat the water up a couple of degrees.
>As a former pressure vessel inspector, I keyed on the note about 105c water.
>That, if released, will flash to steam with the attendant dangers. Keep your
>volume small
>if youre going to go that hot.
>Regards.
Hi Frank,
Good advice. Although I haven't measured it, I'm guessing the water
temperature in this case reaches 50 to 60C in about an hour of full
sun (out of the tap, it's probably no more than 5C).
I connected several garden hoses together and loop them on the back
patio where they are exposed to direct sun; total collector length
might be 100 metres. That seems long enough to supply 30 to 40 litres
of hot water at a time -- more than enough for a load of laundry. My
front loader takes close to an hour to do its thing and that's plenty
of time for the hose to recharge for the next load. When done, I coil
it back up and it sits out of the way.
Although crude, it will supply all of my laundry related needs for six
or seven months of the year, *and* at no cost (these are the same
hoses I use for watering my garden); the little bit of exercise
running the bucket back and forth is an added bonus. I need to
schedule my laundry whenever the weather permits, but that's not a
hardship, and while the monetary rewards are small, the personal
satisfaction is quite large.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| frankb_ca@yahoo.comremovetoreply 2007-06-21, 1:25 pm |
| Now I dont wanna be a smart XXX..having said that I will
why not add another piece of hose that goes to your washing machine?
or is this an exercise thing? *grin*
| |
| David Williams 2007-06-21, 1:25 pm |
| -> True, I don't want to suggest $55.00 is chump change, but I think a
-> typical GFX retails for about $450.00 CDN (perhaps more given the
-> recent run-up in copper prices) and I would probably need a plumber to
-> install it. In my case, it made more sense to invest that money
-> elsewhere where the energy returns would be much higher.
Well, sure, if you want to buy a ready-made exchanger. But why not just
rig one up with a few lengths of pipe, like I did? It may not be quite
as efficient as a commercial one, but it would be *far* cheaper.
Still... If money is tight, I guess you're right to invest it where it
will be most effective.
dow
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-06-21, 1:25 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:28:04 -0500, david.XXXXXXXX@bayman.org (David
XXXXXXXX) wrote:
>Well, sure, if you want to buy a ready-made exchanger. But why not just
>rig one up with a few lengths of pipe, like I did? It may not be quite
>as efficient as a commercial one, but it would be *far* cheaper.
>
>Still... If money is tight, I guess you're right to invest it where it
>will be most effective.
>
> dow
Hi David,
I'll be brutally honest. I can do some *basic* plumbing, but it's not
my cup of tea and the thought of flooding a finished basement due to
my poor handiwork gives me good reason to lthink twice.
A friend of mine installed a dishwahser and the connection failed
while they were at work. You can't even begin to imagine the mess
that caused. Mien danke!
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-06-21, 1:25 pm |
| Hi Frank,
It's a valid question and I gave it some thought as well. The only
downside is that dragging a long hose through the house will
inevitably bring dirt and debris along with it and I might end up
scuffing the walls.. The bucket seemed like a safer way to go.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| Jay Chan 2007-06-22, 9:25 am |
| On Jun 20, 7:04 pm, Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldri...@ns.sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> First, by way of background... I consume a little over 800 litres
> (210 U.S. gallons) of heating oil per year for space heating and
> domestic hot water purposes. By my estimates, water heating accounts
> for over half this amount and a large percentage of this can be
> attributed to stack and tank related losses. My hot water consumption
> is rather modest and there's probably not a whole lot more I can do to
> reduce it any further (well, not without causing marital disharmony,
> that is).
>
> And therein lies the rub. I can't justify the cost of installing a
> solar how water system when my DHW demand doesn't warrant it.
> Furthermore, my roof faces east-west and Halifax isn't known as
> Canada's sunshine capital.
>
> That said, on those seemingly few days when the sun does shine (like
> today), a regular garden hose is a simple and inexpensive way to tap
> into it. As the sun shifts around the back of the house, I roll out
> several lengths of hose on the patio and within an hour or so the
> water is scalding hot. Using a 10-litre bucket, I then transfer this
> water to my front load washer. My fuel oil savings are admittedly
> small (perhaps no more than 0.25 litres per washer load), but for
> roughly six months of the year I'll have the satisfaction of heating
> atleast some my water with the sun and with no out-of-pocket expense.
> I can probably extend the season by several weeks if I build a small
> solar box and coil the hose inside, but for now simply leaving it
> exposed on the ground works well enough.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
Water expands when it gets hot. And expanding hot water inside the
water hose may create so much pressure that the water hose can be
damaged if the hot water has no where else to go. The expensive kind
of water hose may or may not have this problem. But the low/moderate
cost version of water hose may not be able to handle that kind of
pressure. I used to have a water hose rolled up on a black top
driveway, and I didn't drain the water from the water hose. One week
of doing this later, several areas in the water hose were expanded out
and the surface of the water hose became thin and one of the weakened
area ruptured.
Whatever saving that you have using the hot water may be offset by the
cost of replacing the water hose.
Jay Chan
| |
| Paul M. Eldridge 2007-06-22, 9:25 am |
| On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 06:48:53 -0700, Jay Chan <jaykchan@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Water expands when it gets hot. And expanding hot water inside the
>water hose may create so much pressure that the water hose can be
>damaged if the hot water has no where else to go. The expensive kind
>of water hose may or may not have this problem. But the low/moderate
>cost version of water hose may not be able to handle that kind of
>pressure. I used to have a water hose rolled up on a black top
>driveway, and I didn't drain the water from the water hose. One week
>of doing this later, several areas in the water hose were expanded out
>and the surface of the water hose became thin and one of the weakened
>area ruptured.
>
>Whatever saving that you have using the hot water may be offset by the
>cost of replacing the water hose.
>
>Jay Chan
Hi Jay,
These are, in fact, good quality hoses and I haven't noticed any sign
of damage thus far, but I will keep a close eye on it, thanks. I haul
it out an hour or so before I do laundry and, when done, shut off the
outside tap and roll it back up; it's not exposed to direct sunlight
any longer than required -- typically no more than two to three hours
at a time.
Cheers,
Paul
| |
| David Williams 2007-06-22, 1:25 pm |
| -> I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of such a system. Drainwater
-> is less than 100F (probably less than 85F by the time it gets very far down
-> the drain) and is only in brief contact with the heat exchanger. Given the
-> flow rate through the heat exchanger for the incoming cold water, I'd be
-> surprised if it raised the temperature of the water by even 1
-> degree.
I did some measurements, while the heat exchanger was still reasonably
accessible. (Right now, it's under the bathroom floor.) With water at
42C going down the drain, which leads very directly into the heat
exchanger, the drain-water had dropped to about 38C by the time it left
the exchanger, and the incoming cold water had warmed from 5C to 9C.
It's true that my drain-water cools less in the heat exchanger than you
estimate it would do just going "very far down the drain", but at least
its heat goes somewhere useful, instead of being wasted!
dow
| |
| no spam 2007-06-22, 5:25 pm |
| > Water expands when it gets hot. And expanding hot water inside the
> water hose may create so much pressure that the water hose can be
> damaged if the hot water has no where else to go. The expensive kind
> of water hose may or may not have this problem. But the low/moderate
> cost version of water hose may not be able to handle that kind of
> pressure. I used to have a water hose rolled up on a black top
> driveway, and I didn't drain the water from the water hose. One week
> of doing this later, several areas in the water hose were expanded out
> and the surface of the water hose became thin and one of the weakened
> area ruptured.
>
> Whatever saving that you have using the hot water may be offset by the
> cost of replacing the water hose.
The problem isn't from the water expanding from the heat. Its from the hose
material being weakened by the heat and failing under the standard water
pressure from supply.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-06-22, 5:25 pm |
| no spam <no@spam.net> wrote:
>The problem isn't from the water expanding from the heat. Its from the hose
>material being weakened by the heat and failing under the standard water
>pressure from supply.
Swan makes black hot water garden hoses, "up to 160 F," with a lifetime
guarantee, eg Grainger's stock number 2P098 at $37.85 for 75'.
Nick
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-06-23, 3:25 am |
| On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:15:01 -0400, Paul M. Eldridge
<paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 06:48:53 -0700, Jay Chan <jaykchan@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>Hi Jay,
>
>These are, in fact, good quality hoses and I haven't noticed any sign
>of damage thus far, but I will keep a close eye on it, thanks. I haul
>it out an hour or so before I do laundry and, when done, shut off the
>outside tap and roll it back up; it's not exposed to direct sunlight
>any longer than required -- typically no more than two to three hours
>at a time.
>
>Cheers,
>Paul
The hose is made to withstand normal domestic water pressure - and as
long as it is connected to the domestic supply the pressure will NOT
exceed the domestic supply pressure UNLESS you close both ends of the
hose.Expanding water just inches back the supply line a bit, just
like with your normal domestic water heater.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Jay Chan 2007-06-25, 8:25 pm |
| On Jun 22, 11:04 pm, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:15:01 -0400, Paul M. Eldridge
>
> <paul.eldri...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The hose is made to withstand normal domestic water pressure - and as
> long as it is connected to the domestic supply the pressure will NOT
> exceed the domestic supply pressure UNLESS you close both ends of the
> hose.Expanding water just inches back the supply line a bit, just
> like with your normal domestic water heater.
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think you are exactly right. In my case, the water hose was closed
in both ends, and the hot water has no where to go but expanding
against the water hose. This may suggest that we may want to leave
one end open. Having said this, I have a feeling that opening one end
to let hot water to expand into the water supply (to relieve water
pressure) may not be a good idea. Won't that violate some code
requirement (like the code requires us to install a back flow
preventer)?
Jay Chan
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-06-25, 8:25 pm |
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On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:33:49 -0700, Jay Chan <jaykchan@hotmail.com>
wrote:
-
>
>I think you are exactly right. In my case, the water hose was closed
>in both ends, and the hot water has no where to go but expanding
>against the water hose. This may suggest that we may want to leave
>one end open. Having said this, I have a feeling that opening one end
>to let hot water to expand into the water supply (to relieve water
>pressure) may not be a good idea. Won't that violate some code
>requirement (like the code requires us to install a back flow
>preventer)?
>
>Jay Chan
Code Schmode - you'll get at most a couple cups of hot water back
into the "system" = about 3 or 4 feet's worth at best.
What do you think happens with your water heater????
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
|
|
<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:i1o0835hccoen4lnemnlb6587tckj09bbe@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:33:49 -0700, Jay Chan <jaykchan@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> -
> Code Schmode - you'll get at most a couple cups of hot water back
> into the "system" = about 3 or 4 feet's worth at best.
>
> What do you think happens with your water heater????
>
>
Well that would depend. Here they have a pressure/temp relief valve and a
back flow preventer. Of course you don't need either as long as you are sure
the thermostat wont fail "on". Then things get interesting.
| |
| Solar Flaire 2007-06-26, 3:25 am |
| Then I guess your garden hose won't work and you should stop trying to
make it work.
"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:mrqj73933he8jjaqln5e2hn7tua7vs2mru@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:55:36 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>
> Not quite as bad as St. John's, but pretty damn close! (122 foggy
> days
> versus 124) :-)
>
> Here's what Environment Canada has to say:
>
> "Halifax's reputation as a foggy and misty city is well deserved.
> Each
> year there is an average of 122 days with fog at the International
> Airport and 101 days at Shearwater, on the Dartmouth side of the
> harbour, although on most days fog persists for less than 12 hours.
> The period from mid-spring to early summer is the foggiest time.
> Bands
> of thick, cool fog lie off the coast, produced where the chilled air
> above the Labrador Current mixes with warm, moisture-laden air
> moving
> onshore from the Gulf Stream."
>
> Source:
> http://atlantic-web1.ns.ec.gc.ca/cl...En&n=61405176-1
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-06-26, 3:25 am |
| On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:50:40 +1000, "stu" <nowhere@justyet.com> wrote:
>
><clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
>news:i1o0835hccoen4lnemnlb6587tckj09bbe@4ax.com...
>Well that would depend. Here they have a pressure/temp relief valve and a
>back flow preventer. Of course you don't need either as long as you are sure
>the thermostat wont fail "on". Then things get interesting.
>
No backflow preventers in Canada.
Then again, in Zambia the "geyser" was gravity fed from a "float tank"
in the attic. No pressure releif valve - and basically no pressure on
the hot water side. Solar hot water assist in the summer - the attic
must have been 160F onder that tin roof. Never turned the geyser on
for 6 months of the year.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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