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whither the ice house?
|
|
| dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com 2007-05-25, 9:25 am |
| a large portion of North America is exceptionally well suited to
annual storage of coolth. This was done for thousands of years,
until the advent of cheap fossil-fuel power for home delivery. And
with modern insulation technology, it requires much less space.
how expensive would electricity have to become, before entrepreneurs
would devote time to becoming skilled at doing turn-key installations
of well-thought-out, conveniently-useable ice houses in private homes,
the way that there's a category of specialists who do solar-hot-water
installs?
the premise here is that a well-planned installation would be _close
enough_ to the usage-convenience of a kitchen refrigerator, that the
"chores" aspect of the old ice house, wouldn't exist enough to stop
buyers.
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2007-05-25, 9:25 am |
| dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
....
> how expensive would electricity have to become, before entrepreneurs
> would devote time to becoming skilled at doing turn-key installations
> of well-thought-out, conveniently-useable ice houses in private homes,
> the way that there's a category of specialists who do solar-hot-water
> installs?
>
> the premise here is that a well-planned installation would be _close
> enough_ to the usage-convenience of a kitchen refrigerator, that the
> "chores" aspect of the old ice house, wouldn't exist enough to stop
> buyers.
As I see it, in this modern age there is no need for "chores" related
to an ice house. The whole thing can be automated and insulated pipes
filled with antifreeze/water could carry the "cool" to an inside
insulated box in the kitchen.
I just don't see the idea catching on because a good fridge these days
only consumes one or two kWh a day. Electricity would have to get very
expensive before someone would give up what a fridge offers.
I also understand that seasonal storage can get quite cumbersome. It
might be cheaper to setup a solar thermal powered ice maker and only
store the "cold" for a few days or weeks at a time.
Anthony
| |
| Eeyore 2007-05-25, 9:25 am |
|
dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
> a large portion of North America is exceptionally well suited to
> annual storage of coolth. This was done for thousands of years,
The American Indians did it too ?
Graham
| |
|
| In article <4656b82f$0$12477$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, anthonym40
@nothing.like.socal.rr.com says...
> dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
> ...
It would never recover its cost.
[color=darkred]
> As I see it, in this modern age there is no need for "chores" related
> to an ice house. The whole thing can be automated and insulated pipes
> filled with antifreeze/water could carry the "cool" to an inside
> insulated box in the kitchen.
>
> I just don't see the idea catching on because a good fridge these days
> only consumes one or two kWh a day. Electricity would have to get very
> expensive before someone would give up what a fridge offers.
You mean people would rather pay more money than get food poisoning?
What a concept.
> I also understand that seasonal storage can get quite cumbersome. It
> might be cheaper to setup a solar thermal powered ice maker and only
> store the "cold" for a few days or weeks at a time.
>
> Anthony
>
--
Keith
| |
|
| <snip>
Actually, if you wanted "off the grid" refrigeration, going all the way back
to the icehouse era isn't necessary. A step back of a few decades, where we
find insulated chests with a device such as an IcyBall, is all that is
necessary.
B.
| |
| George Grapman 2007-05-25, 1:25 pm |
| Brian wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Actually, if you wanted "off the grid" refrigeration, going all the way back
> to the icehouse era isn't necessary. A step back of a few decades, where we
> find insulated chests with a device such as an IcyBall, is all that is
> necessary.
>
> B.
>
>
I use a small version of that for sandwiches and drinks when I got to
baseball games. Very frugal considering the cost of food and drinks at a
game.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
| |
| David Williams 2007-05-25, 9:25 pm |
| -> Actually, if you wanted "off the grid" refrigeration, going all the way back
-> to the icehouse era isn't necessary. A step back of a few decades, where we
-> find insulated chests with a device such as an IcyBall, is all that is
-> necessary.
Here in Toronto, some downtown buildings are kept cool in summertime by
using cold water that is pumped from deep in Lake Ontario, where the
water temperature is a constant 4 deg. C (the tamperature of water's
maximum density) year-round. The cold water passes through
heat-exchangers in the buildings, cooling the air.
Some energy is used, of course, for pumps and fans. But it's a tiny
fraction of what would be needed for refrigeration-type air
conditioning.
dow
| |
| Al Bundy 2007-05-26, 8:25 pm |
| On May 25, 5:28 am, dances_with_barka...@yahoo.com wrote:
> a large portion of North America is exceptionally well suited to
> annual storage of coolth. This was done for thousands of years,
> until the advent of cheap fossil-fuel power for home delivery. And
> with modern insulation technology, it requires much less space.
>
> how expensive would electricity have to become, before entrepreneurs
> would devote time to becoming skilled at doing turn-key installations
> of well-thought-out, conveniently-useable ice houses in private homes,
> the way that there's a category of specialists who do solar-hot-water
> installs?
>
> the premise here is that a well-planned installation would be _close
> enough_ to the usage-convenience of a kitchen refrigerator, that the
> "chores" aspect of the old ice house, wouldn't exist enough to stop
> buyers.
When I was a kid they used to have ice wagons. People used ice boxes.
And for many years later, they still used it in summer for seasonal
sales. The ice was cut from Lake Huron. Nobody worried about consuming
the ice either. If you have the space, the insulation is child's play.
Procuring the ice is labor intensive and if naturally made ice runs
the risk of contamination more than in those years. There must be a
better and cheaper way. One way is to do as we might with gasoline,
use less of the product.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-05-27, 3:25 am |
| Al Bundy <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote:
>Procuring the ice is labor intensive...
>There must be a better and cheaper way.
Using NREL's TMY2 ("Typical Meteorological Year") hourly weather data file
for Philadelphia, one of 239 US cities listed at
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/tmy2/
10 OPEN "tmycool" FOR INPUT AS #1
30 FOR H=1 TO 8760'read ambient temperature every hour for a year
40 LINE INPUT#1, S$'input a line from the TMY2 file
50 TEMP=VAL(MID$(S$,27,4))'ambient temp (F)
60 ATEMPT=ATEMPT+TEMP'accumulate average yearly temperature
70 IF TEMP < 32 THEN FDHT=FDHT+32-TEMP'accumulate freezing degree-hours
80 IF TEMP > 32 THEN MDHT=MDHT+TEMP-32'accumulate melting degree-hours
90 NEXT H
100 PRINT "average yearly temperature:";ATEMPT/8760
110 PRINT "freezing-degree days:";FDHT/24
120 PRINT "melting-degree days:";MDHT/24
130 CLOSE 1
this fine BASIC program yields:
average yearly temperature: 53.62591 (F),
freezing-degree days: 339.4584, and
melting-degree days: 8232.917,
like heating and cooling degree days (F) for 32 F houses. The number of
"freezing degree days" (FDD) is the total equivalent number of days in
which the outdoor temperature is less than freezing during a typical year,
times the difference in degrees between 32 F and the outdoor temperature,
on each of those days.
The FDD for a particular climate measures how easy it is to make ice. We
can freeze a pound of water with 144 Btu at 32 F, and a water surface has
a thermal conductance of about 1.5 Btu/h-F-ft^2 in still air, and a cubic
foot of water weighs about 64 pounds, ie 5 pounds per inch of depth, so
1 FDD can freeze an ice layer 24hx1.5/(144x5.3) = 0.05" thick, on top of
32 F water. In Philadelphia, we might freeze a layer of ice about 339x0.05
= 16" thick on some sort of specially-designed icemaking pond...
Melting degree-days determine how big an icehouse must be to stay cold
for a year. Bigger icehouses work better. An L' icecube surrounded by R40
insulation contains about 64L^3 pounds of water, ignoring the insulation
thickness, and initially stores about 9200L^3 Btu of coolth with a yearly
heat gain of about 24hx8200x6L^2/R40 Btu in Phila, for a minimum L = 3'.
A 5x5x5 = 125ft^3 icecube inside a 10' strawbale cube might stay partially
frozen all year, if it were first frozen solid and it only had to keep
itself and some vegetables cool, vs say, air-conditioning a nearby building.
Freezing a 5' cube takes about 5^3x64x144 = 1.15 million Btu. An A ft^2
roofpond can make 24x339x1.5A = 1.15 million, so A = 94 ft^2, eg a 10'x10'
salt water pond under IR-transparent polyethylene film in freezing weather.
Winter winds and night sky radiation would cool the pond more, as would
evaporation, without the poly film.
A low-power pump might flood the pond at night and let it flow back into
a tray above an 8'x8'x4' thick 256 ft^3 water wall inside a 10' cubical
outdoor fridge. The wall might be welded-wire mesh and 2x4 shelves under
plastic film 55 gallon drum liners, as Anna Edey used to store solar heat
in her Cape Cod Solviva greenhouse.
An air-antifreeze heat exchanger and fan might replace the roof pond...
Something like a $35 used 1984 Dodge Omni auto radiator with its 12V fan
or Magicaire's $150 2'x2' SHW 2347 heat exchanger, which can transfer
45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and 68 F air at about 800 Btu/h-F at
1400 cfm (like a window fan) with a low airflow resistance and an air
pressure drop equivalent to a 0.1" column of water. A 100 watt fan might
run 2.3million/(800x(32-25)) = 410 hours at 25 F to freeze the wall,
consuming 41 kWh/year, ie about $4 at 10 cents/kWh, while providing
256 ft^3 of year-round refrigerated space inside the 512 ft^3 box, like
17 home fridges. Is it time for neighborhood icehouses yet? Fill them
with beer to facilitate apres-lawn-mowing-male-bonding? And what will
we do about lawns, after the oil runs out?
Nick
| |
| dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com 2007-05-30, 1:25 pm |
|
> melting-degree days: 8232.917,
> heat gain of about 24hx 8200 x6L^2/R40 Btu
you're doing a roundoff? or 8200 was something else?
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-05-30, 1:25 pm |
| <dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>you're doing a roundoff? or 8200 was something else?
Yes... 8200 is about the same as 8232.917, and a lot like 10,000.
Nick
| |
| Morris Dovey 2007-07-24, 5:25 pm |
| dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
| how expensive would electricity have to become, before entrepreneurs
| would devote time to becoming skilled at doing turn-key
| installations of well-thought-out, conveniently-useable ice houses
| in private homes, the way that there's a category of specialists
| who do solar-hot-water installs?
Judging by the speed with which already paid-for iceboxes were
replaced with expensive compressor refrigerators, I think it'd need to
get pretty expensive.
There are other solutions available beside those you mentioned,
including some solar refrigeration possibilities using solar-stirling
lash-ups. I'm (slowly) working toward one such implementation -
described at the link below...
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-24, 5:25 pm |
| When power is in short supply, and winter provides sufficient ice, a ice
house is an appropriate solution. We have built in-basement ice houses, and
collected ice from the pond in winter. The ice stays with us through
October. Outdoor temps rarely exceed 90F here in upstate NY.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
http://www.green-trust.org/bookshop/
"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:46a65c74$0$495$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
> dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> | how expensive would electricity have to become, before entrepreneurs
> | would devote time to becoming skilled at doing turn-key
> | installations of well-thought-out, conveniently-useable ice houses
> | in private homes, the way that there's a category of specialists
> | who do solar-hot-water installs?
>
> Judging by the speed with which already paid-for iceboxes were
> replaced with expensive compressor refrigerators, I think it'd need to
> get pretty expensive.
>
> There are other solutions available beside those you mentioned,
> including some solar refrigeration possibilities using solar-stirling
> lash-ups. I'm (slowly) working toward one such implementation -
> described at the link below...
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/
>
>
| |
| Morris Dovey 2007-07-24, 5:25 pm |
| Steve Spence wrote:
| When power is in short supply, and winter provides sufficient ice,
| a ice house is an appropriate solution. We have built in-basement
| ice houses, and collected ice from the pond in winter. The ice
| stays with us through October. Outdoor temps rarely exceed 90F here
| in upstate NY.
I'm not questioning the technical possibility. I'd suggest discussing
this issue with your wife/mother/grandmother before allowing yourself
to become too enthusiastic about this particular choice.
I remember iceboxes (in small town Michigan) and would assure you that
they weren't abandoned for reasons that had anything to do (directly)
with the technology involved.
I also remember that there weren't any frozen foods in the grocery
store.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
| |
| Ecnerwal 2007-07-24, 5:25 pm |
| In article <46a66e94$0$505$815e3792@news.qwest.net>,
"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote:
> Steve Spence wrote:
> | When power is in short supply, and winter provides sufficient ice,
> | a ice house is an appropriate solution. We have built in-basement
> | ice houses, and collected ice from the pond in winter. The ice
> | stays with us through October. Outdoor temps rarely exceed 90F here
> | in upstate NY.
>
> I'm not questioning the technical possibility. I'd suggest discussing
> this issue with your wife/mother/grandmother before allowing yourself
> to become too enthusiastic about this particular choice.
I would not assume that a direct return to the technology of the
traditional (messy, warmish) ice-box is appropriate. If you can provide
a little bit of power to run a circulator pump, you can have the mess
and fuss contained outside or in the basement (and reduce the fuss quite
a bit), and pipe the cool (via insulated pipes) to a dedicated
refrigerator which might be built from an old upright freezer box - or
you might have a small walk-in fridge and freezer with the cooling for
the fridge section coming from ice-house as long as possible, and
compressor if/when that runs out. If there's more ice capacity, cool
(within specs, but given that they work with outside air through the
winter, this is a wider spec than typical house fridges) the condenser
for the freezer part as well.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-24, 9:25 pm |
| It wasn't an ice box. It was an ice house, in the basement. sort of a
walk-in cooler. Food was stored on shelves in the ice room.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
http://www.green-trust.org/bookshop/
"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:46a66e94$0$505$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
> Steve Spence wrote:
> | When power is in short supply, and winter provides sufficient ice,
> | a ice house is an appropriate solution. We have built in-basement
> | ice houses, and collected ice from the pond in winter. The ice
> | stays with us through October. Outdoor temps rarely exceed 90F here
> | in upstate NY.
>
> I'm not questioning the technical possibility. I'd suggest discussing
> this issue with your wife/mother/grandmother before allowing yourself
> to become too enthusiastic about this particular choice.
>
> I remember iceboxes (in small town Michigan) and would assure you that
> they weren't abandoned for reasons that had anything to do (directly)
> with the technology involved.
>
> I also remember that there weren't any frozen foods in the grocery
> store.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
>
| |
| Morris Dovey 2007-07-25, 3:25 am |
| Steve Spence wrote:
| It wasn't an ice box. It was an ice house, in the basement. sort of
| a walk-in cooler. Food was stored on shelves in the ice room.
Ah! Thank you - I read "ice house" and thought "ice box". My mistake.
Still, that strikes me as a project needing a considerable mass of ice
and a substantial volume of insulation if it's to last from winter to
winter (or harvest to harvest).
Too much heavy lifting for me - I'll continue working on a solar
solution.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-07-25, 3:25 am |
| Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote:
>Steve Spence wrote:
>
>| It wasn't an ice box. It was an ice house, in the basement. sort of
>| a walk-in cooler. Food was stored on shelves in the ice room.
>
>Ah! Thank you - I read "ice house" and thought "ice box". My mistake.
>
>Still, that strikes me as a project needing a considerable mass of ice
>and a substantial volume of insulation if it's to last from winter to
>winter (or harvest to harvest).
>
>Too much heavy lifting for me...
The ice might freeze in winter, then melt, then refreeze in place.
Nick
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-25, 9:25 am |
| The slabs of ice are 3' x 2' x 8"
The walls are insulated with 12" of pink foam, surrounded with 60F dirt.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
http://www.green-trust.org/bookshop/
"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:46a6be04$0$496$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
> Steve Spence wrote:
>
> | It wasn't an ice box. It was an ice house, in the basement. sort of
> | a walk-in cooler. Food was stored on shelves in the ice room.
>
> Ah! Thank you - I read "ice house" and thought "ice box". My mistake.
>
> Still, that strikes me as a project needing a considerable mass of ice
> and a substantial volume of insulation if it's to last from winter to
> winter (or harvest to harvest).
>
> Too much heavy lifting for me - I'll continue working on a solar
> solution.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
>
| |
| Morris Dovey 2007-07-25, 9:25 am |
| Steve Spence wrote:
| The slabs of ice are 3' x 2' x 8"
|
| The walls are insulated with 12" of pink foam, surrounded with 60F
| dirt.
Interesting. Do you recall the size of the room and the number of
slabs needed to keep it cool?
Was this set up to occupy the entire "basement"?
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
| |
| Harry K 2007-07-25, 9:25 am |
| On Jul 24, 2:23 pm, "Morris Dovey" <mrdo...@iedu.com> wrote:
> Steve Spence wrote:
>
> | When power is in short supply, and winter provides sufficient ice,
> | a ice house is an appropriate solution. We have built in-basement
> | ice houses, and collected ice from the pond in winter. The ice
> | stays with us through October. Outdoor temps rarely exceed 90F here
> | in upstate NY.
>
> I'm not questioning the technical possibility. I'd suggest discussing
> this issue with your wife/mother/grandmother before allowing yourself
> to become too enthusiastic about this particular choice.
>
> I remember iceboxes (in small town Michigan) and would assure you that
> they weren't abandoned for reasons that had anything to do (directly)
> with the technology involved.
>
> I also remember that there weren't any frozen foods in the grocery
> store.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Yep. We lived with an icebox until 1948 when REA came through. A
messy appliance needing regular care. The lack of a freezing
capability would kill any 'market' except for the die hard "back-to-
nature" types.
Harry K
| |
| Harry K 2007-07-25, 9:25 am |
| On Jul 24, 6:41 pm, "Steve Spence" <sspe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
> It wasn't an ice box. It was an ice house, in the basement. sort of a
> walk-in cooler. Food was stored on shelves in the ice room.
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Director, Green-Trusthttp://www.green-trust.orghttp://www.green-trust.org/bookshop/
>
> "Morris Dovey" <mrdo...@iedu.com> wrote in message
>
> news:46a66e94$0$505$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Even more messy and labor intensive. Still lacks any freezer
capability.
No woman except for a rare few would willingly give up the modern
refrigerator.
Harry K
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2007-07-25, 1:25 pm |
| Harry K wrote:
....
> Yep. We lived with an icebox until 1948 when REA came through. A
> messy appliance needing regular care. The lack of a freezing
> capability would kill any 'market' except for the die hard "back-to-
> nature" types.
Perhaps we could have the best of both worlds. Start with an ice house
filled with trays of water/ice that has automatic doors or shutters
which open when the temperature outside is below freezing. Perhaps even
designed to make use of prevailing winds or including some kind of fan.
Attached to this could be a fridge and/or freezer using a heat pump
with a heat exchanger inside the ice house.
You would get the modern features of an ordinary fridge or freezer
with minimal energy use. If you're located somewhere without lots of
cold weather then perhaps one of those solar ice makers could be used.
Anthony
| |
| RW Salnick 2007-07-25, 1:25 pm |
| Anthony Matonak brought forth on stone tablets:
> Harry K wrote:
> ...
>
>
>
> Perhaps we could have the best of both worlds. Start with an ice house
> filled with trays of water/ice that has automatic doors or shutters
> which open when the temperature outside is below freezing. Perhaps even
> designed to make use of prevailing winds or including some kind of fan.
> Attached to this could be a fridge and/or freezer using a heat pump
> with a heat exchanger inside the ice house.
>
> You would get the modern features of an ordinary fridge or freezer
> with minimal energy use. If you're located somewhere without lots of
> cold weather then perhaps one of those solar ice makers could be used.
>
> Anthony
Better yet: Take advantage of modern technology while minimizing energy
usage.
Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
refrigeration. Would take essentially zero energy to move heat downhill
from a 40 degree fridge to a 32 degree ice block. And not much more to
move it uphill from a 0 degree freezer to the 32 degree ice block.
Would work great for air conditioning too. Much better than pumping the
heat uphill into a 72 degree environment (conventional fridge/freezer),
or even worse, into a 90-100 degree environment (airconditioning)
bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-07-25, 5:25 pm |
| RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote:
>Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
>refrigeration. Would take essentially zero energy to move heat downhill
>from a 40 degree fridge to a 32 degree ice block.
Oh?
>And not much more to move it uphill from a 0 degree freezer to the 32 degree
>ice block.
That seems like a good idea, with a natural fridge, eg a room full of
ice shelves interspersed with salt water stalagtites below a roofpond.
>Would work great for air conditioning too.
Not enough ice.
Nick
| |
|
| On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:43:17 -0700, RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.org>
wrote:
>Anthony Matonak brought forth on stone tablets:
>
>Better yet: Take advantage of modern technology while minimizing energy
>usage.
>
>Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
>refrigeration. Would take essentially zero energy to move heat downhill
>from a 40 degree fridge to a 32 degree ice block. And not much more to
>move it uphill from a 0 degree freezer to the 32 degree ice block.
>Would work great for air conditioning too. Much better than pumping the
>heat uphill into a 72 degree environment (conventional fridge/freezer),
>or even worse, into a 90-100 degree environment (airconditioning)
These are great ideas, and I'm going to think about incorporating them
all into any building plans I make, along with the solar panels I'd
like to install for heating the house water. We're in western New
York, so this could work really well. The more passive, the better!
[fyi, posting from misc.consumers.house, so followups directed
elsewhere will elude my attention]
| |
| Harry K 2007-07-25, 9:25 pm |
| On Jul 25, 3:37 pm, KLS <xyme...@suds.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:43:17 -0700, RW Salnick <saln...@no.spam.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> These are great ideas, and I'm going to think about incorporating them
> all into any building plans I make, along with the solar panels I'd
> like to install for heating the house water. We're in western New
> York, so this could work really well. The more passive, the better!
> [fyi, posting from misc.consumers.house, so followups directed
> elsewhere will elude my attention]- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, some ideas that seem workable. Just keep in mind that unless it
provides for frozen food storeage all year round it will be a non-
starter.
Harry K
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2007-07-26, 3:25 am |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote:
>
....[color=darkred]
>
> Not enough ice.
It's just a question of scale, isn't it? One could figure out how
much ice is needed to keep their house cold throughout the year
and then build an ice house big enough.
I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside. 
Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
Anthony
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| On Jul 25, 10:20 pm, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
> ...
>
>
> It's just a question of scale, isn't it? One could figure out how
> much ice is needed to keep their house cold throughout the year
> and then build an ice house big enough.
>
> I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
> hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside.
>
> Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
You realize that transporting, storing, and stacking that much ice is
going to cost you more than running your AC?
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| Morris Dovey 2007-07-26, 3:25 am |
| Anthony Matonak wrote:
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
|| RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote:
||
||| Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
||| refrigeration.
| ...
||| Would work great for air conditioning too.
||
|| Not enough ice.
|
| It's just a question of scale, isn't it? One could figure out how
| much ice is needed to keep their house cold throughout the year
| and then build an ice house big enough.
|
| I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
| hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside.
Erm... My shop is /in/ a small hanger (you can see pix by following
the links at the page below) - and I'm curious as to what you consider
to be a "cheap" building. I'm thinking that just the insulation you've
described would be fairly spendy...
| Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
Ah yes - this is the important question.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html
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| Rod Speed 2007-07-26, 3:25 am |
| Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote
> nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote
[color=darkred]
> ...
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> It's just a question of scale, isn't it?
Only in theory.
> One could figure out how much ice is needed to keep their house cold throughout the year and then
> build an ice house big enough.
Problem is that that ends up impractically big, wont even fit on the block.
> I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
> hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside.
> Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
More than is practical.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-07-26, 9:25 am |
| Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>...
>
>It's just a question of scale, isn't it?
Yes.
>One could figure out how much ice is needed to keep their house cold
>throughout the year and then build an ice house big enough.
Yes.
>I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
>hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside.
That could work, with a large enough hangar.
>Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
Phila (not too hot) has 1101 F cooling degree days, so a typical house
with a 400 Btu/h-F conductance and no internal heat gains would require
24hx1101x400 = 10.5 million Btu/year of cooling, which might come from
10.5M/144 = 73,400 pounds or about 1281 ft^3 of perfectly-insulated ice.
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.renewable,
alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair
Subject: Re: whither the ice house?
Date: 27 May 2007 04:24:24 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Al Bundy <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote:
>Procuring the ice is labor intensive...
>There must be a better and cheaper way.
Using NREL's TMY2 ("Typical Meteorological Year") hourly weather data file
for Philadelphia, one of 239 US cities listed at
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/tmy2/
10 OPEN "tmycool" FOR INPUT AS #1
30 FOR H=1 TO 8760'read ambient temperature every hour for a year
40 LINE INPUT#1, S$'input a line from the TMY2 file
50 TEMP=VAL(MID$(S$,27,4))'ambient temp (F)
60 ATEMPT=ATEMPT+TEMP'accumulate average yearly temperature
70 IF TEMP < 32 THEN FDHT=FDHT+32-TEMP'accumulate freezing degree-hours
80 IF TEMP > 32 THEN MDHT=MDHT+TEMP-32'accumulate melting degree-hours
90 NEXT H
100 PRINT "average yearly temperature:";ATEMPT/8760
110 PRINT "freezing-degree days:";FDHT/24
120 PRINT "melting-degree days:";MDHT/24
130 CLOSE 1
this fine BASIC program yields:
average yearly temperature: 53.62591 (F),
freezing-degree days: 339.4584, and
melting-degree days: 8232.917,
like heating and cooling degree days (F) for 32 F houses. The number of
"freezing degree days" (FDD) is the total equivalent number of days in
which the outdoor temperature is less than freezing during a typical year,
times the difference in degrees between 32 F and the outdoor temperature,
on each of those days.
The FDD for a particular climate measures how easy it is to make ice. We
can freeze a pound of water with 144 Btu at 32 F, and a water surface has
a thermal conductance of about 1.5 Btu/h-F-ft^2 in still air, and a cubic
foot of water weighs about 64 pounds, ie 5 pounds per inch of depth, so
1 FDD can freeze an ice layer 24hx1.5/(144x5.3) = 0.05" thick, on top of
32 F water. In Philadelphia, we might freeze a layer of ice about 339x0.05
= 16" thick on some sort of specially-designed icemaking pond...
Melting degree-days determine how big an icehouse must be to stay cold
for a year. Bigger icehouses work better. An L' icecube surrounded by R40
insulation contains about 64L^3 pounds of water, ignoring the insulation
thickness, and initially stores about 9200L^3 Btu of coolth with a yearly
heat gain of about 24hx8200x6L^2/R40 Btu in Phila, for a minimum L = 3'.
A 5x5x5 = 125ft^3 icecube inside a 10' strawbale cube might stay partially
frozen all year, if it were first frozen solid and it only had to keep
itself and some vegetables cool, vs say, air-conditioning a nearby building.
Freezing a 5' cube takes about 5^3x64x144 = 1.15 million Btu. An A ft^2
roofpond can make 24x339x1.5A = 1.15 million, so A = 94 ft^2, with some
thermosyphoning salt water stalagtites under a 10'x10' salt water pond
under IR-transparent polyethylene film in freezing weather. Winter winds
and night sky radiation would cool the pond more, as would evaporation,
without the poly film to keep the pond clean.
A low-power pump might flood the pond at night and let it flow back into
a tray above an 8'x8'x4' thick 256 ft^3 water wall inside a 10' cubical
outdoor fridge. The wall might be welded-wire mesh and 2x4 shelves under
plastic film 55 gallon drum liners, as Anna Edey used to store solar heat
in her Cape Cod Solviva greenhouse.
An air-antifreeze heat exchanger and fan might replace the roof pond...
Something like a $35 used 1984 Dodge Omni auto radiator with its 12V fan
or Magicaire's $150 2'x2' SHW 2347 heat exchanger, which can transfer
45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and 68 F air at about 800 Btu/h-F at
1400 cfm (like a window fan) with a low airflow resistance and an air
pressure drop equivalent to a 0.1" column of water. A 100 watt fan might
run 2.3million/(800x(32-25)) = 410 hours at 25 F to freeze the wall,
consuming 41 kWh/year, ie about $4 at 10 cents/kWh, while providing
256 ft^3 of year-round refrigerated space inside the 512 ft^3 box, like
17 home fridges. Is it time for neighborhood icehouses yet? Fill them
with beer to facilitate apres-lawn-mowing-male-bonding? And what will
we do about lawns, after the oil runs out?
Nick
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"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote
> | Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
>
> Ah yes - this is the important question.
It's not how much ice, but how COLD it is. +30*, or -50*? Big
difference....
| |
| Morris Dovey 2007-07-26, 9:25 am |
| Jim wrote:
| "Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote
||| Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
||
|| Ah yes - this is the important question.
|
| It's not how much ice, but how COLD it is. +30*, or -50*? Big
| difference....
I'm looking for information - not a dance partner.
You're evading the question. Pick a temperature that fits a location
in upstate NY, tell us where upstate, what the temperature is, and
take your best shot at the quantity of ice.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
| |
| no spam 2007-07-26, 9:25 am |
| > | It wasn't an ice box. It was an ice house, in the basement. sort of
> | a walk-in cooler. Food was stored on shelves in the ice room.
>
> Ah! Thank you - I read "ice house" and thought "ice box". My mistake.
>
> Still, that strikes me as a project needing a considerable mass of ice
> and a substantial volume of insulation if it's to last from winter to
> winter (or harvest to harvest).
>
> Too much heavy lifting for me - I'll continue working on a solar
> solution.
There are a few solar cooling solutions. In no particular order;
PV electricity to run standard cooling.
use solar powered heat engine to: 1) run a genny to run standard cooling, 2)
to run a compressor for standard cooling.
My plan, to use solar thermal to run an absorption cooling system with a
closed loop ground water secondary system powered by PV. (the same group of
PV cells will also be used to run my well pump in case of grid failure)
| |
| Morris Dovey 2007-07-26, 9:25 am |
| no spam wrote:
| There are a few solar cooling solutions. In no particular order;
|
| PV electricity to run standard cooling.
|
| use solar powered heat engine to: 1) run a genny to run standard
| cooling, 2) to run a compressor for standard cooling.
|
| My plan, to use solar thermal to run an absorption cooling system
| with a closed loop ground water secondary system powered by PV.
| (the same group of PV cells will also be used to run my well pump
| in case of grid failure)
Add another:
The Stirling engine has an interesting symmetry in that if heat is
applied to its hot side, it will convert (some of) that heat energy to
mechanical energy...
....and if mechanical energy is applied, it will develop a hot side and
a cold side.
I understand this second mode is used to achieve extremely cold
(cryogenic) temperatures.
My approach is to use a fluidyne (a liquid-piston Stirling engine)
driven by solar heat to produce mechanical energy - which is then
applied to a second fluidyne to produce a hot side and a cold side.
The cold side is used to remove heat from fluid circulated by (are you
ready for this?) a third fluidyne (pump) driven by solar heat.
So far so good - follow the link in my sig to see photos, drawings,
and a short video of one of the prototype fluidynes running...
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/
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| Steve Spence 2007-07-27, 1:25 pm |
| The room is 15' x 15' and 20' deep.
The ice fills the top 15' of the space. I don't recall the number of slabs,
we just kept cutting till we couldn't put more in.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
http://www.green-trust.org/bookshop/
"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:46a73cac$0$493$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
> Steve Spence wrote:
>
> | The slabs of ice are 3' x 2' x 8"
> |
> | The walls are insulated with 12" of pink foam, surrounded with 60F
> | dirt.
>
> Interesting. Do you recall the size of the room and the number of
> slabs needed to keep it cool?
>
> Was this set up to occupy the entire "basement"?
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
>
| |
|
| "Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:46a88f30$0$497$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
> Jim wrote:
> | "Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote
> ||| Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
> ||
> || Ah yes - this is the important question.
> |
> | It's not how much ice, but how COLD it is. +30*, or -50*? Big
> | difference....
>
> I'm looking for information - not a dance partner.
Every pound of ice that is 80 degrees cooler is 80 more btu's of
cooling. -50* ice provides 82 btu's and liquifies, +30* ice provides =2=
btu's and liquifies.
Not all ice is created equal.
>
> You're evading the question. Pick a temperature that fits a location
> in upstate NY, tell us where upstate, what the temperature is, and
> take your best shot at the quantity of ice.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
>
| |
| David Williams 2007-07-28, 5:25 pm |
| -> Every pound of ice that is 80 degrees cooler is 80 more btu's of
-> cooling. -50* ice provides 82 btu's and liquifies, +30* ice provides =2=
-> btu's and liquifies.
-> Not all ice is created equal.
Neglecting the difference bwween the specific heats of ice and liquid
water, what you say is true *except for the words "and liquefies"*.
Melting ice, from solid to liquid, absorbs *latent heat* from the
surroundings, which, if I remember right, is about 50 calories per
gram, or 100 BTU per pound. So, if you start with ice at -40 degrees (C
or F - they're the same), you will have to provide 40 cal/g or 72
BTU/lb just to warm it up to its melting point, then *another* 50 cal/g
or 100 BTU/lb to melt it. So the ice will absorb a total of 90 cal/g,
or 172 BTU/lb before it turns into liquid water at the freezing point.
But if you start with ice that's already on the brink of melting, it
will absorb only the latent heat, i.e. 50 cal/g or 100 BTU/lb. So the
ice that was initially very cold will absorb more heat, but by a factor
of less than 2.
dow
| |
|
| Thanks for the reminder; I had forgotten that and now everyone knows
that my days of teaching are many years in the past! LOL!!!
"David XXXXXXXX" <david.XXXXXXXX@bayman.org> wrote in message
news:1185658774.912.1185649716@bayman.org...
>-> Every pound of ice that is 80 degrees cooler is 80 more btu's of
> -> cooling. -50* ice provides 82 btu's and liquifies, +30* ice provides
> =2=
> -> btu's and liquifies.
> -> Not all ice is created equal.
>
> Neglecting the difference bwween the specific heats of ice and liquid
> water, what you say is true *except for the words "and liquefies"*.
> Melting ice, from solid to liquid, absorbs *latent heat* from the
> surroundings, which, if I remember right, is about 50 calories per
> gram, or 100 BTU per pound. So, if you start with ice at -40 degrees (C
> or F - they're the same), you will have to provide 40 cal/g or 72
> BTU/lb just to warm it up to its melting point, then *another* 50 cal/g
> or 100 BTU/lb to melt it. So the ice will absorb a total of 90 cal/g,
> or 172 BTU/lb before it turns into liquid water at the freezing point.
> But if you start with ice that's already on the brink of melting, it
> will absorb only the latent heat, i.e. 50 cal/g or 100 BTU/lb. So the
> ice that was initially very cold will absorb more heat, but by a factor
> of less than 2.
>
> dow
| |
| David Williams 2007-07-29, 9:25 pm |
| -> Thanks for the reminder; I had forgotten that and now everyone knows
-> that my days of teaching are many years in the past! LOL!!!
So are mine. About 25 years in the past, in fact!
dow
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