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| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 9:25 am |
| My system, which includes a pair of series-stacked SW5548's, has been
running without difficulty for 6 1/2 years. But I find myself concerned
about dealing with inverter failure(s).
Does anyone here have data on how long these things might last?
Strategies to deal with failures in an off-grid system?
I could certainly run off the backup generator, but how long does it take
to get an SW5548 repaired or replaced? I live in Downeast Maine.
The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
--ron
| |
| Ecnerwal 2007-06-24, 9:25 am |
| In article <mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com>,
Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
> The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
An autotransformer (or 2:1 step up/down isolation transformer) might be
a worthwhile investment - both trace and outback offer them, though one
has to suspect that something off-the-shelf from a source not intent on
milking maximum dollars out of "solar people" would be less expensive.
That would permit running the well pump with one inverter down, and is
cheaper than keeping a spare inverter on hand. Would be best if it can
be wired so it's only "in circuit" when the pump is running (otherwise
there's a 12-15 watt drain all the time due to magnetic losses - ie,
warm transformer.)
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| George Ghio 2007-06-24, 9:25 am |
| Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
> My system, which includes a pair of series-stacked SW5548's, has been
> running without difficulty for 6 1/2 years. But I find myself concerned
> about dealing with inverter failure(s).
>
> Does anyone here have data on how long these things might last?
> Strategies to deal with failures in an off-grid system?
>
> I could certainly run off the backup generator, but how long does it take
> to get an SW5548 repaired or replaced? I live in Downeast Maine.
>
> The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
> --ron
Ah yes. You could be in deep shit. It all depends on the design of your system.
Statistically the inverter is the most likely component in a system to fail. The reasons for this
vary but main reason seems to center on saving money by undersizing the inverter to a save a couple
of bucks.
A 1500 watt inverter run at close to or at 1500 watts all the time when a 2000 watt inverter would
have been the better choice.
To put it bluntly "Heat"
It's a lot like running your car close to or at red line all the time.
The question is how close to the max do you push them and for how long?
How long to get them repaired?
How far do you have to send them for service?
Can they go by post or do they need a shipping agent?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Vaughn Simon 2007-06-24, 9:25 am |
|
"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com...
>
> I could certainly run off the backup generator, but how long does it take
> to get an SW5548 repaired or replaced? I live in Downeast Maine.
>
> The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
You have a pressure tank right? Assuming that you are only going to lost
one inverter at a time, your backup plan could look like this: Conserve, and run
your 110 V. loads off of one inverter. Start up the genny to run the well pump
at shower time and briefly at other times of high water demand.
It should not take you more than two or three weeks to either get your inverter
repaired or buy a new one.
Vaughn
> --ron
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-06-24, 1:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 06:40:32 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
<ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
>My system, which includes a pair of series-stacked SW5548's, has been
>running without difficulty for 6 1/2 years. But I find myself concerned
>about dealing with inverter failure(s).
>
>Does anyone here have data on how long these things might last?
No data, just anecdotes - mine are nearly 13 years old. I know of
several other SWs about the same age.
>Strategies to deal with failures in an off-grid system?
A lightning strike could take out both inverters at once - you could
stock say, the biggest Samlex you're willing to invest in to keep you
going.
>I could certainly run off the backup generator, but how long does it take
>to get an SW5548 repaired or replaced? I live in Downeast Maine.
I had some problems early on. With the factory's approval I removed
all the circuit boards and sent only those parts in. That made the
shipping easier and saved some money, but it didn't reduce the
down-time at all. It was a couple weeks as I recall.
>The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
>--ron
(Assuming you have a single-pump setup) Running the well pump off the
backup generator might be bearable if your pressure tank is large
enough. If not, here's what I recommended to a friend who's worried
about grid failure rendering his fire sprinkler system inoperable (he
already has multiple pressure tanks) - a storage tank as big as you
can fit in the basement or whatever, along with a DC pressure pump. It
could have manual valves and switches, or be online ready to take over
whenever the normal pressure system fails. An additional benefit is
that such a setup could provide backup in case of submersible failure,
something that could easily take a week to fix. You could even put it
online full-time which might save some energy and extend the life of
your submersible. For backup you could use relatively inexpensive
diaphragm pump(s), for full-time use something like this might be
worthwhile http://store.solar-electric.com/wat...ffsp-2900.html.
Wayne
| |
| Neon John 2007-06-24, 1:25 pm |
| Nobody seems to have read closely enough to answer your question so let me take a
stab.
No experience with that particular inverter but lots of experience designing and
servicing UPS inverters - same thing, pretty much.
The answer is "it depends". Mainly on how heavily loaded the inverter is and how hot
the components (NOT the outside case, the actual components) get.
Heat is the mortal enemy of electronics, especially electrolytic capacitors and the
power semiconductors. Electrolytics can last essentially forever at near room
temperature but only a couple of years if run at 90 deg C (assuming 105 degC rated
caps). The DC input filter caps in particular, handle heavy high frequency current
and so generate heat of their own. These should have a free flow of ambient air and
be shielded from radiant heat from other components in the box.
The power semiconductors are second most sensitive to heat. The case temperature
should be only a few degrees above ambient, no more than perhaps 20 degC. Chemical
reaction rates (including things like whisker growth) double for every 10 degC rise
in temperature so keeping things cool is vitally important.
There is NO REASON for fixed installation devices to be designed to run any hotter
but many designers do it to save a few pennies on heat sinks.
The first thing I'd do is take some measurements. Measure the case temperature and
the exhaust air if it has vents, while the unit is under full load. If the rise is
much over 20 degC over ambient, consider forced air cooling. Only a little is needed
- a 24 volt muffin fan run on 12 volts uses practically no power but does an
excellent job of cooling.
Next, if you can get to them without significant disturbance (I'd be reluctant to
disassemble a unit that old, as internal plastic could already be getting brittle,
etc.), measure the temperature of the input filter capacitors (likely the largest
components in there other than the transformers). Again, use that 20 degC magic
rule. Finally, measure the power semiconductor (FETs, diodes) CASE temperature.
My favorite measuring instrument is a fairly high end infrared pyrometer. Not one of
the $100 cheapies that you can buy just about everywhere. Mine has adjustable
emissivity and a tightly defined measuring spot size. I can zoom in on an individual
component.
If you can't lay your hands on one of those, the second best is a very fine
thermocouple (26-30 gauge) with a blob of heatsink compound on the junction. This
tiny couple can be reached in through air vents and laid atop the component of
interest. The heatsink compound thermally couples it to the component. Scads of
under $50 digital voltmeters are available with type K thermocouple inputs. Get the
thermocouple from http://www.omega.com.
You have to be a little careful with the thermocouple because some of the components
of interest have voltage on them. Insulate the wire down to the junction itself with
several coats of fingernail polish or similar varnish. The voltage won't affect the
temperature readout. The problem is when you brush the couple leads up against the
grounded case.
One last thing, go over again your lightning protection. One trick that I learned
from years of maintaining mountain-top 2-way radios is to coil every lead that goes
into or out of the device into a couple of loops, maybe a foot in diameter. Upstream
of the loop (toward the lightning), provide a very close arc gap for the lightning to
divert through to ground.
My standard "gap" was to take a little nick out of the wire's insulation. Tape a
piece of solid conductor wire parallel to the wire so that it passes over the nick.
Solidly ground the solid wire. The arc gap is the air space the thickness of the
insulation. Optionally, take your knife and raise some barbs on the solid copper
wire where it sits over the gap. These points make the breakdown voltage of the gap
much less.
The way this works is this. Lightning surges are made up of very high frequency
components (do a Fourier transform on a pulse with a rise time of millions of volts
per microsecond!) Those couple of coils of wire form a choke that presents a high
impedance to the incoming pulse. At the same time, the arc gap presents a very low
impedance path to ground. The lightning will take the easiest path and that is
through the gap.
This was an accidental discovery. It is usual practice to coil excess feedline at
the base of the tower. I started noticing burn marks on the feedline and tower right
above the coils. After I saw several of these, it dawned on me what was going on.
Since then I don't think I've lost a single radio to lightning damage. I coil the
feedline on the tower and again where it comes through the building wall. All power
and control wiring gets coiled inside the building and gaps as described above
installed. It is common practice to run a ground bus around the inside of a
transmitter building. Usually 3-4" wide x 1/8th thick copper bus bar, grounded every
few feet to ground rods driven into the ground or if the building was properly
planned, the copper mesh embedded under the building. I arrange the arc gap
placement so that there is no more than an inch or two of wire between the gap and
the ground bus.
Here's another suggestion for preparing for the eventual failure. Dedicate an
inexpensive generator to the well pump by itself. Wire it up so that the pressure
switch operates the idle control on the generator and through a time delay relay, a
contactor that energizes the pump. Adjust the idle or economy setting on the
generator to take it to as slow an idle as possible for maximum standby fuel economy.
The operating sequence is this: The pressure switch calls for water. The generator
is throttled up to full speed. A few seconds later the contactor is closed by the
time delay relay and the pump is powered. When the tank is filled, the pressure
switch opens, the pump turns off and the engine returns to idle.
If you group your water consuming activities reasonably close together you can simply
start the generator and go about your business without using too much fuel. This is
easier on the generator and probably more fuel-efficient than starting and stopping
it each time.
I have my house set up like that. I can run the pump either on the whole-house
generator when I'm doing other things such as cooking or running the AC or I can run
it on its dedicated small generator when nothing else needs power. All my lighting
is powered from a UPS with a large battery bank so I can go a day or two between
chargings.
Up here in the mountains we can have snow outages that can last 2 weeks so I have to
be prepared to live essentially as if I were off-grid.
I've solved the refrigeration problem rather cleverly, I think. I have two chest
freezers and an upright refrigerator. All are on wheels. I simply roll them outside
on the porch. When the temperature is in the single digits everything remains nicely
frozen. I'll occasionally put a container of hot water in the 'fridge to keep it
from freezing.
One last thought. Now would be a good time to start looking for a spare inverter to
keep on the shelf. Now that you have the luxury of time to look, maybe you can find
a used one somewhere on the cheap.
John
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 06:40:32 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
>My system, which includes a pair of series-stacked SW5548's, has been
>running without difficulty for 6 1/2 years. But I find myself concerned
>about dealing with inverter failure(s).
>
>Does anyone here have data on how long these things might last?
>Strategies to deal with failures in an off-grid system?
>
>I could certainly run off the backup generator, but how long does it take
>to get an SW5548 repaired or replaced? I live in Downeast Maine.
>
>The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
>--ron
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Why the US is losing its competitivve edge:"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."-James Niccol
| |
| Neon John 2007-06-24, 1:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:41:47 GMT, wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:
>(Assuming you have a single-pump setup) Running the well pump off the
>backup generator might be bearable if your pressure tank is large
>enough. If not, here's what I recommended to a friend who's worried
>about grid failure rendering his fire sprinkler system inoperable (he
>already has multiple pressure tanks) - a storage tank as big as you
>can fit in the basement or whatever, along with a DC pressure pump. It
>could have manual valves and switches, or be online ready to take over
>whenever the normal pressure system fails. An additional benefit is
>that such a setup could provide backup in case of submersible failure,
>something that could easily take a week to fix. You could even put it
>online full-time which might save some energy and extend the life of
>your submersible. For backup you could use relatively inexpensive
>diaphragm pump(s), for full-time use something like this might be
>worthwhile http://store.solar-electric.com/wat...ffsp-2900.html.
>
Holy mother of solar rip-off, Bat Man. Almost $500 for a pump that will run on a 300
watt inverter, indicating no more than 1/4hp? Holy shite! One or two of the
Sureflow RV pumps at less than $100 a pop will do soo much more for soo much less.
They'll handle sand and will run indefinitely dry, as I've found out in my motorhome
more than once.
Anyway, I'd be cautious about the basement mounted tank and DC pump, especially if
fire protection figures into the mix. As a (formerly) UL certified fire system
inspector, ex- and future volunteer fireman and as someone who has lost a house to
fire, I'm kinda sensitive to such things.
Let's recall the old rule of 1 gallon of gas is about the same as 1000 lbs of
batteries. It's going to take a LOT of battery power to pump the same water that
even 1 gallon of gas will pump. I'd much rather have my gas fired generator with the
5 gallon tank running a known-good submersible pump than have to rely on very limited
capacity and reserve DC electric pumps.
I have a male pigtail sticking out of my remote wellhouse so that if something
happens in the house during a fire emergency that kills power (it usually does) then
I can run the fire protection system from the generator that I roll over there. I
have a separate power drop from the utility pole for the same reason. A major fault
in the breaker panel could conceivably blow the primary fuse on the pole transformer
and thus kill my pump: thus the generator backup. All that water in a basement tank
would be useless if it couldn't be pumped out.
I prefer to run the electric pump from the generator because I know that the pump is
proven in everyday use. A gas powered pump may or may not prime after the engine does
or does not start. My generator gets a regular workout and fresh fuel so I know it's
good to go.
Two more projects are underway. One is to install residential fire sprinklers. The
nearest fire department is over an hour away so my fire protection falls to me.
Because some city codes are now requiring residential sprinklers, the cost and
availability are getting better and better.
The other is a passive water feed to the house. My well pump is about 40 vertical
feet above my house. Not quite enough head to power the sprinklers. I'm collecting
materials to build a 30 ft tower on top of which will go a 250 gallon polyethylene
tank. This additional 30 ft plus the est 9 ft (initially) of water head inside the
tank is just enough. I'm probably going to lose the place anyway if a fire breaks
out that it so large that 250 gallons can't nip it in the bud. This is to be the
last-ditch, if all the power is off and I'm away effort to save the place.
One other comment while I'm on the subject. We have the worst ISO fire rating there
is that will let us actually get fire insurance. Several of us have been checking
around and we've discovered an alternative. We found out that the volunteer fire
department (25 winding mountain road miles away) will position a pumper truck up here
if we'll provide a secure spot for it.
I've leased a hunk of land to the VFD for a dollar and had it clear off. Others are
raising the money for a metal building to put the truck in to protect it from
freezing. I'll probably supply the power for the heat or maybe we'll split it. All
the full-time residences in this resort area are going to be trained on the truck and
become volunteer firemen. With us certified as firemen and with the equipment
literally in our back door, we're going to gain a whole bunch of ISO points. We'll
make back in lower insurance premiums what we donated, probably the first year.
This isn't a large truck - basically a 4WD military surplus brush fire truck. 250
gallon tank, pump and couple hundred feet of hose. A gas powered pump and several
hundred more feet of low pressure hose is there to be run down to the river to keep
the tank filled. I'm thinking about laying an underground pipe to the river if we
can get every property owner's permission to cross his property. If I can do that
then maybe I can put an electric start pump in a little hose down by the river and
remote start it from up here.
I already have a large pump in my well and I'm installing 2" line down the casing and
am installing a 2" fire dept riser on my pumphouse. Yet another supply of water.
I'll be doing the preventative maintenance and routine exercising on the truck so
I'll know that it's ready to go.
This is some food for thought, especially for y'all that have several homes in a
remote location.
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made with meat?
| |
| Ulysses 2007-06-24, 1:25 pm |
|
"Ecnerwal" <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote in message
news:LawrenceSMITH-D85CBF.08304724062007@news.verizon.net...
> In article <mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com>,
> Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>
> An autotransformer (or 2:1 step up/down isolation transformer) might be
> a worthwhile investment - both trace and outback offer them, though one
> has to suspect that something off-the-shelf from a source not intent on
> milking maximum dollars out of "solar people" would be less expensive.
>
> That would permit running the well pump with one inverter down, and is
> cheaper than keeping a spare inverter on hand. Would be best if it can
> be wired so it's only "in circuit" when the pump is running (otherwise
> there's a 12-15 watt drain all the time due to magnetic losses - ie,
> warm transformer.)
I'm using an autotransformer right now with one OB 3600 watt inverter to run
my well pump because the other inverter is now just a battery charger
(temporarily, I hope). There was a discussion on this NG a month or two ago
with a lot of suggestions on more effecient, cheaper transformers. I can't
seem to recall the heading. Perhaps Neon John may remember.
>
> --
> Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2007-06-24, 1:25 pm |
| In article <mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com>,
Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
> My system, which includes a pair of series-stacked SW5548's, has been
> running without difficulty for 6 1/2 years. But I find myself concerned
> about dealing with inverter failure(s).
>
> Does anyone here have data on how long these things might last?
> Strategies to deal with failures in an off-grid system?
>
> I could certainly run off the backup generator, but how long does it take
> to get an SW5548 repaired or replaced? I live in Downeast Maine.
>
> The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
> --ron
My SW4024 is one of the very early Production Models. Not a burp, so far,
after many years of operation. I would guess that Trace isn't really as
good at Customer Service, since being sold out. If I were buying today,
OutBack would be my Brand. I know these guys, and they are ALWAYS there
if you need them.....
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| Loren Amelang 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:30:25 +1000, George Ghio
<ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
In 27 years off-grid, counting only sudden and unexpected failures,
I've lost one inverter, one battery cell (the connector flag fractured
off the top), several PV panels (internal connections to the backs of
cells failed), and one house wiring circuit (the carpenters had put a
nail through the cable and it took about twelve years for it to
finally short). Also one well pump system, due to a hole in a pipe
fitting at the bottom of the well (probably electrogalvanic).
[color=darkred]
>
>Ah yes. You could be in deep shit. It all depends on the design of your system.
>
>Statistically the inverter is the most likely component in a system to fail. The reasons for this
>vary but main reason seems to center on saving money by undersizing the inverter to a save a couple
>of bucks.
My old Heart Interface H24-2500 was only running the little front-load
washer, maybe 350 watts, when it failed on an ordinary cool day.
Someone hit the timer knob to stop the washer while it was in the
middle of the spin cycle. Probably not the first time that had
happened, but this time there was a sudden horrendous buzz, and the
(DC) lights dimmed to about nothing. Luckily the electronic off switch
on the inverter worked.
Since that warning, I've added a 200 amp DC-rated disconnect switch
with 200K amp interrupting fuses ahead of the inverter. It's in a huge
metal box and makes quite a dramatic snap when you switch it, but
that's what it would take to turn off a shorted inverter if its off
switch didn't work. A switch rated to _carry_ 200 amps, like the
"battery selectors" often used in marine systems, wouldn't have a
chance.
>How long to get them repaired?
>
>How far do you have to send them for service?
>
>Can they go by post or do they need a shipping agent?
I took advantage of the event to upgrade to the SW4024 I'd been
wanting, and with a choice of dealers in nearby towns I was back
online in a couple of days. Once I got the Heart packed and shipped,
it took them less than a week to turn it around, but I didn't pay for
fast shipping since the pressure was off. It is still here as a spare
system.
My "survival strategy", aside from the spare inverter and two engine
generators, is a 3000 gallon water tank. There are ways around an
inverter failure, but if the deep well pump is out, they won't help
you. And I've had many more pump problems than power problems...
Loren
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:05:32 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:41:47 GMT, wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:
>
>
>
>Holy mother of solar rip-off, Bat Man.
Come back after you've talked to some owners. Those pumps have a good
rep for being well made, efficient, and long-lasting. I haven't owned
one, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're a better deal (lifetime
dollar per gallon pumped) than cheaper offerings. RV-type pumps are
fine as well, but the comparison is apples to oranges. Plus, I'm
thinkin' that someone whose house is powered by dual 5548s wouldn't
want the dut-dut-dut-dut of multiple RV pumps as a full-time water
pressure system.
> Almost $500 for a pump that will run on a 300
>watt inverter, indicating no more than 1/4hp? Holy shite! One or two of the
>Sureflow RV pumps at less than $100 a pop will do soo much more for soo much less.
>They'll handle sand and will run indefinitely dry, as I've found out in my motorhome
>more than once.
>
>Anyway, I'd be cautious about the basement mounted tank and DC pump, especially if
>fire protection figures into the mix. As a (formerly) UL certified fire system
>inspector, ex- and future volunteer fireman and as someone who has lost a house to
>fire, I'm kinda sensitive to such things.
Oh brother. The guy I was talking about has never been a firefighter
yada yada, but he already has a sprinkler system so I'm pretty sure
he's sensitive about fire...
>Let's recall the old rule of 1 gallon of gas is about the same as 1000 lbs of
>batteries. It's going to take a LOT of battery power to pump the same water that
>even 1 gallon of gas will pump. I'd much rather have my gas fired generator with the
>5 gallon tank running a known-good submersible pump than have to rely on very limited
>capacity and reserve DC electric pumps.
Sure, so long as you're home when the fire starts, or have a
dependable auto-start generator.
>I have a male pigtail sticking out of my remote wellhouse so that if something
>happens in the house during a fire emergency that kills power (it usually does) then
>I can run the fire protection system from the generator that I roll over there. I
>have a separate power drop from the utility pole for the same reason. A major fault
>in the breaker panel could conceivably blow the primary fuse on the pole transformer
>and thus kill my pump: thus the generator backup. All that water in a basement tank
>would be useless if it couldn't be pumped out.
That's why I recommended a separate power setup for the backup pump.
He already has 3000 gallons of water, and he knows that with his
current setup it won't be worth jack if the grid's down.
>I prefer to run the electric pump from the generator because I know that the pump is
>proven in everyday use. A gas powered pump may or may not prime after the engine does
>or does not start. My generator gets a regular workout and fresh fuel so I know it's
>good to go.
Some people find batteries more dependable than generators....
This guy may well yet go whole-hog and set up for auto-start so that
he has access to his entire supply of water rather than say, an
additional 500 gallons. But in the meantime, and all things
considered, I'd like to see him get something better than his current
100 gallons or so in the pressure tanks. A simple and relatively
inexpensive DC setup can be wired so that it comes on if-when pressure
drops, and can be easily tested regularly by shutting off the main
booster-pump breaker.
Wayne
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:30:25 +1000, George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au>
wrote:
>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>Ah yes. You could be in deep shit. It all depends on the design of your system.
>
>Statistically the inverter is the most likely component in a system to fail. The reasons for this
>vary but main reason seems to center on saving money by undersizing the inverter to a save a couple
>of bucks.
>
>A 1500 watt inverter run at close to or at 1500 watts all the time when a 2000 watt inverter would
>have been the better choice.
>
>To put it bluntly "Heat"
>
>It's a lot like running your car close to or at red line all the time.
>
>The question is how close to the max do you push them and for how long?
Most of the time, they are loafing -- around 10% capacity. During periods
when I have been monitoring and recording continuously, I don't believe
I've ever seen them at more than 70% capacity, and that for only two or
three minutes.
>
>How long to get them repaired?
I don't know. I'm looking for experience of others with this brand.
--ron
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:58:38 -0700, Loren Amelang <loren@pacific.net>
wrote:
>On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:30:25 +1000, George Ghio
><ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>In 27 years off-grid, counting only sudden and unexpected failures,
>I've lost one inverter, one battery cell (the connector flag fractured
>off the top), several PV panels (internal connections to the backs of
>cells failed), and one house wiring circuit (the carpenters had put a
>nail through the cable and it took about twelve years for it to
>finally short). Also one well pump system, due to a hole in a pipe
>fitting at the bottom of the well (probably electrogalvanic).
>
>
>My old Heart Interface H24-2500 was only running the little front-load
>washer, maybe 350 watts, when it failed on an ordinary cool day.
>Someone hit the timer knob to stop the washer while it was in the
>middle of the spin cycle. Probably not the first time that had
>happened, but this time there was a sudden horrendous buzz, and the
>(DC) lights dimmed to about nothing. Luckily the electronic off switch
>on the inverter worked.
>
>Since that warning, I've added a 200 amp DC-rated disconnect switch
>with 200K amp interrupting fuses ahead of the inverter. It's in a huge
>metal box and makes quite a dramatic snap when you switch it, but
>that's what it would take to turn off a shorted inverter if its off
>switch didn't work. A switch rated to _carry_ 200 amps, like the
>"battery selectors" often used in marine systems, wouldn't have a
>chance.
>
>
>I took advantage of the event to upgrade to the SW4024 I'd been
>wanting, and with a choice of dealers in nearby towns I was back
>online in a couple of days. Once I got the Heart packed and shipped,
>it took them less than a week to turn it around, but I didn't pay for
>fast shipping since the pressure was off. It is still here as a spare
>system.
>
>My "survival strategy", aside from the spare inverter and two engine
>generators, is a 3000 gallon water tank. There are ways around an
>inverter failure, but if the deep well pump is out, they won't help
>you. And I've had many more pump problems than power problems...
>
>Loren
Thanks for that information.
Since I have two inverters, I could run 1/2 the house and fire up the
generator when I need the well pump. I also have a spare SW5548, but it's
been sitting in unheated space since mid 2000 and I have no idea if it'll
work, or not. One of these days, when I get a round tuit, I need to hook
it up and check.
Sounds as if you've had a good experience with your equipment.
Thanks for the info.
--ron
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:30:48 GMT, Ecnerwal
<LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote:
>In article <mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com>,
> Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>
>An autotransformer (or 2:1 step up/down isolation transformer) might be
>a worthwhile investment - both trace and outback offer them, though one
>has to suspect that something off-the-shelf from a source not intent on
>milking maximum dollars out of "solar people" would be less expensive.
>
>That would permit running the well pump with one inverter down, and is
>cheaper than keeping a spare inverter on hand. Would be best if it can
>be wired so it's only "in circuit" when the pump is running (otherwise
>there's a 12-15 watt drain all the time due to magnetic losses - ie,
>warm transformer.)
Not a bad idea -- and I've thought of it. I do have a spare inverter, but
it's been sitting for seven years. Will it work? Who knows? :-)
--ron
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>The power semiconductors are second most sensitive to heat... Measure
>the case temperature and the exhaust air if it has vents, while the unit
>is under full load. If the rise is much over 20 degC over ambient,
>consider forced air cooling.
We used to add an individual heat sink to an IC if the case temp and
power dissipation and junction to case thermal conductance (Thetajc)
predicted a junction temp over 100 C.
Then again, we might increase availability with a spare inverter or two,
If an inverter has a 1-year guarantee, and we assume it fails once per year
and takes a week to get fixed, this sort of (Markov) model might predict
its availability:
where L = is the failure rate, 1/52 week,
L R = is the repair rate, 1/1 week,
---- --------> ---- P1 is the probability that the inverter works
| P1 | | P0 | and P0 is the probability that it doesn't.
---- <-------- ----
R
Since it works or it doesn't, but not both P1 + P0 = 1, and P0 = L/R P1, so
R/L P0 + P0 = 1, or P0 = 1/(1+R/L) = 1/(1+1/1/(1/52)) = 1/53, so we might
expect the inverter to be out of service an average of 1/53 of each week,
165 hours per year, a bit less than one week per year.
Add another inverter and this becomes
2L L P2 <--> both work
---- --------> ---- -------> ---- P1 <--> one works
| P2 | | P1 | | P0 | P0 <--> none work
---- <-------- ---- <------- ----
2R R
Again, P2 + P1 + P0 = 1, P1 = 2L/2R P2 and P0 = L/R P1, so
2R/2L P1 + P1 + P0 = 1, or R^2/L^2 P0 + R/L P0 + P0 = 1, or
P0 = 1/(1+R/L + R^2/L^2) = 1/(1+ 52 + 52x52) = 0.00036, so we
might expect both inverters to be out of service an average of
0.00036x8760 = 3 hours per year. (Reducing the repair time to
4 hours would decrease the unavailability to 1/2 hour per year.)
Add another inverter and this becomes
3L 2L L P3 <--> 3 work
---- ------> ---- ------> ---- ------> ---- P1 <--> 2 work
| P3 | | P2 | | P1 | | P0 | P1 <--> 1 works
---- <------ ---- <------- ---- <----- ---- P0 <--> 0 work
3R 2R R
Again, P3 + P2 + P1 + P0 = 1, P2 = 3L/3R P3, P1 = 2L/2R P2 and P0 = L/R P1,
so P0 = 1/(1+R/L+ R^2/L^2+R^3/L^3) = 1/143,365, so might expect all three
inverters to be out of service an average of 8760/143,365 = 0.061 hours or
3.7 minutes per year.
>... One trick that I learned from years of maintaining mountain-top
>2-way radios is to coil every lead that goes into or out of the device
>into a couple of loops, maybe a foot in diameter. Upstream of the loop
>(toward the lightning), provide a very close arc gap for the lightning
>to >divert through to ground.
>
>My standard "gap" was to take a little nick out of the wire's insulation.
>Tape a piece of solid conductor wire parallel to the wire so that it
>passes over the nick. Solidly ground the solid wire. The arc gap is
>the air space the thickness of the insulation.
Cool. I've seen this for electric fences, with a larger gap.
Nick
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:12:57 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
<vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote:
>
>"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
>news:mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com...
>
> You have a pressure tank right? Assuming that you are only going to lost
>one inverter at a time, your backup plan could look like this: Conserve, and run
>your 110 V. loads off of one inverter. Start up the genny to run the well pump
>at shower time and briefly at other times of high water demand.
>
>It should not take you more than two or three weeks to either get your inverter
>repaired or buy a new one.
>
>Vaughn
>
>
>
That is my present plan. But out of necessity rather than conscious
thought :-) Hence this post.
Thanks.
--ron
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:41:47 GMT, wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:
>On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 06:40:32 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
><ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>
>No data, just anecdotes - mine are nearly 13 years old. I know of
>several other SWs about the same age.
Maybe I'll be lucky.
>
>
>A lightning strike could take out both inverters at once - you could
>stock say, the biggest Samlex you're willing to invest in to keep you
>going.
So far (knock-on-wood) we've been lucky. We've had a few ferocious
lightning storms, with some pretty close strikes. I guess the grounding
system has been adequate, so far. The only glitch with the very close
strike was that the E-Meter locked up. But removing and restoring power to
it resolved that issue. (I guess I "re-booted" the E-meter).
I do happen to have an extra SW5548 lying around. Long story how I came by
it. It is a refurbished unit that didn't cost me anything. But it's been
just sitting for seven years. That would be the same issue with any other
unit.
>
>
>I had some problems early on. With the factory's approval I removed
>all the circuit boards and sent only those parts in. That made the
>shipping easier and saved some money, but it didn't reduce the
>down-time at all. It was a couple weeks as I recall.
Couple weeks seems like a long time. But if that's what it takes, I guess
I have to prepare for it.
>
>(Assuming you have a single-pump setup) Running the well pump off the
>backup generator might be bearable if your pressure tank is large
>enough.
It probably is. We have two of the larger tanks that I believe have a 35
gallon (each) drawdown before the pump has to start up again.
Thanks for the information.
--ron
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:30:25 +1000, George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au>
wrote:
>To put it bluntly "Heat"
Just to add to my previous reply, the SW5548's also contain battery
chargers powered by the backup generator. When in that mode (perhaps 100
hrs/year), they do get hot. Otherwise they remain cool to the touch.
--ron
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:18:03 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>Nobody seems to have read closely enough to answer your question so let me take a
>stab.
>
>No experience with that particular inverter but lots of experience designing and
>servicing UPS inverters - same thing, pretty much.
>
>The answer is "it depends". Mainly on how heavily loaded the inverter is and how hot
>the components (NOT the outside case, the actual components) get.
>
>Heat is the mortal enemy of electronics, especially electrolytic capacitors and the
>power semiconductors. Electrolytics can last essentially forever at near room
>temperature but only a couple of years if run at 90 deg C (assuming 105 degC rated
>caps). The DC input filter caps in particular, handle heavy high frequency current
>and so generate heat of their own. These should have a free flow of ambient air and
>be shielded from radiant heat from other components in the box.
>
The inverters loaf for the most part, and stay pretty cool. Rarely, if
ever, above ambient temperature when inverting.
They do get hot, however, when the battery chargers are in use -- the
generator runs perhaps 100 hrs/year. Because of the heat, I've added
considerable ventilation to what was there originally (thermostatically
controlled vents and fans). Also, in the summer, if the generator is
running, I will open the door to the inverter room and put a big box fan
there to further help with cooling.
Had I known how much heat the inverters would generate when in charging
mode, I would have designed things differently.
>
>One last thing, go over again your lightning protection. One trick that I learned
>from years of maintaining mountain-top 2-way radios is to coil every lead that goes
>into or out of the device into a couple of loops, maybe a foot in diameter. Upstream
>of the loop (toward the lightning), provide a very close arc gap for the lightning to
>divert through to ground.
>
Not much to do at this point to coil leads. Hard to loop 4-0 copper! We
have a wind turbine which is about 300' from the service entrance. It and
the guys are all grounded with 8' copper rods pounded into the ground. The
wiring from the tower runs underground in a conduit. There is a Delta
LA-603 arrestor at the tower switchbox. There is #6 copper wire which
grounds the switchbox, and runs to the ground rod at the tower, and then in
the trench outside the conduit to a ground rod at the house. Everything at
the house is bonded to this common ground rod.
For what its worth (and I know it's not much), we've survived several
pretty close strikes.
>
>Here's another suggestion for preparing for the eventual failure. Dedicate an
>inexpensive generator to the well pump by itself. Wire it up so that the pressure
>switch operates the idle control on the generator and through a time delay relay, a
>contactor that energizes the pump. Adjust the idle or economy setting on the
>generator to take it to as slow an idle as possible for maximum standby fuel economy.
>
>The operating sequence is this: The pressure switch calls for water. The generator
>is throttled up to full speed. A few seconds later the contactor is closed by the
>time delay relay and the pump is powered. When the tank is filled, the pressure
>switch opens, the pump turns off and the engine returns to idle.
>
>If you group your water consuming activities reasonably close together you can simply
>start the generator and go about your business without using too much fuel. This is
>easier on the generator and probably more fuel-efficient than starting and stopping
>it each time.
I think if I'm going to run the well pump off my generator automatically,
I'd rather set up so that the pressure switch turns on the generator. My
12kW generator uses 1 gal propane/hr at idle, and the well pump only draws
5A/240V. I don't want to have to deal with another engine <g> that might
only be used once in ten years. And knowing me, it probably would not work
when needed.
>
>Up here in the mountains we can have snow outages that can last 2 weeks so I have to
>be prepared to live essentially as if I were off-grid.
>
>I've solved the refrigeration problem rather cleverly, I think. I have two chest
>freezers and an upright refrigerator. All are on wheels. I simply roll them outside
>on the porch. When the temperature is in the single digits everything remains nicely
>frozen. I'll occasionally put a container of hot water in the 'fridge to keep it
>from freezing.
Of course, that only works for winter outages. When we lived on the grid,
in southern NH, that was the only time we had prolonged power outages, too.
>
>One last thought. Now would be a good time to start looking for a spare inverter to
>keep on the shelf. Now that you have the luxury of time to look, maybe you can find
>a used one somewhere on the cheap.
I actually have a refurbished SW5548 sitting. But I don't know how good it
will be after sitting for seven years. Components dry out.
Thanks for your thoughts.
--ron
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:08:31 GMT, Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net>
wrote:
>My SW4024 is one of the very early Production Models. Not a burp, so far,
>after many years of operation. I would guess that Trace isn't really as
>good at Customer Service, since being sold out. If I were buying today,
>OutBack would be my Brand. I know these guys, and they are ALWAYS there
>if you need them.....
I kind of feel the same way. But repair should be cheaper than replacement
-- hopefully I won't need either.
--ron
| |
| George Ghio 2007-06-24, 8:25 pm |
| Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:30:25 +1000, George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>
> Most of the time, they are loafing -- around 10% capacity. During periods
> when I have been monitoring and recording continuously, I don't believe
> I've ever seen them at more than 70% capacity, and that for only two or
> three minutes.
You should be in pretty good shape then. Another big killer is vermin.
Aside from that, It is the hands of perverse gods.
>
>
> I don't know. I'm looking for experience of others with this brand.
Point is, are they serviced locally. Or is long distance shipping required.
No point answering as it really doesn't help your question.
The point for others to ponder is this. Buy as local as you can.
I always supplied Plasmatronic regulators and Selectronic inverters for customers in Victoria.
Not because these items were better than any other products, but because they were as good as other
products with the advantage that if they needed repair they could be taken back to the manufacturer
for same day repair or replacement.
There is a lot more to design than just buying stuff.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| George Ghio 2007-06-24, 8:25 pm |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 06:40:32 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
> <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>
> No data, just anecdotes - mine are nearly 13 years old. I know of
> several other SWs about the same age.
>
>
> A lightning strike could take out both inverters at once - you could
> stock say, the biggest Samlex you're willing to invest in to keep you
> going.
>
>
> I had some problems early on. With the factory's approval I removed
> all the circuit boards and sent only those parts in. That made the
> shipping easier and saved some money, but it didn't reduce the
> down-time at all. It was a couple weeks as I recall.
Of course though this was a case of fraud. You installed in a manner that allowed vermin to get into
the inverter causing a short circuit. You removed the evidence and claimed general failure.
>
>
> (Assuming you have a single-pump setup) Running the well pump off the
> backup generator might be bearable if your pressure tank is large
> enough. If not, here's what I recommended to a friend who's worried
> about grid failure rendering his fire sprinkler system inoperable (he
> already has multiple pressure tanks) - a storage tank as big as you
> can fit in the basement or whatever, along with a DC pressure pump. It
> could have manual valves and switches, or be online ready to take over
> whenever the normal pressure system fails. An additional benefit is
> that such a setup could provide backup in case of submersible failure,
> something that could easily take a week to fix. You could even put it
> online full-time which might save some energy and extend the life of
> your submersible. For backup you could use relatively inexpensive
> diaphragm pump(s), for full-time use something like this might be
> worthwhile http://store.solar-electric.com/wat...ffsp-2900.html.
>
> Wayne
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-06-24, 8:25 pm |
| On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:32:05 +1000, George Ghio
<ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
>Of course though this was a case of fraud.
No, it's a case of you telling easily refutable bald-faced lies as
usual.
>You installed in a manner that allowed vermin to get into
>the inverter causing a short circuit. You removed the evidence and claimed general failure.
I told the factory up front that it appeared to me that a bug had
shorted out a transistor. They knew immediately that it was probably
true since they'd seen it happen before. The SWs are vented with
fairly large slots, and small bugs can and do get inside and
occasionally kill a board. Which is why the factory repaired the
toasted bits without charge. And probably one of the reasons why when
the engineers went "out back", their next design was completely
sealed. Of course you couldn't know any of that because nitwits aren't
allowed to work on SWs or FXs.
Have you considered that if you had a life beyond being a pathetic
lying quack, that the rest of us would never have gotten the
opportunity to laugh at you being mocked in online videos? Just a
suggestion....
Wayne
| |
|
| On Jun 24, 6:40 am, Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenf...@nospam.org> wrote:
> My system, which includes a pair of series-stacked SW5548's, has been
> running without difficulty for 6 1/2 years. But I find myself concerned
> about dealing with inverter failure(s).
Don't we all ;-).
> Does anyone here have data on how long these things might last?
> Strategies to deal with failures in an off-grid system?
Well, firstly, put in a generator bypass switch; lets the generator
bypass the whole inverter-battery process.
Secondly, maybe get a step-up transformer (T-240, X-240, whatever) so
you can run your well pump off 120v, or get a DC well pump (Shurflow,
Lorentz, etc)
Cistern water systems I like. Again, as someone else mentioned, for
water availability in case of fire or accident.
> I could certainly run off the backup generator, but how long does it take
> to get an SW5548 repaired or replaced? I live in Downeast Maine.
To get a replacement, if your credit cards are amenable, couple days,
max. Repaired, another matter. Depends on what died.
With OutBack stuff, it's board swap. I've replaced boards on OutBacks
from arrival at the client site to turning the DC breaker back on
afterwards: two hours downtime. It's been my experience that boards
can be shipped out from OutBack in a day. Someone mentioned doing a
'board-ectomy' on a Trace, so it might be possible too. Now that
they're dropping the SW and the SW+ for the new XW, might start
getting more interesting.
> The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
So that's your weakness. Eliminate it ;-).
> --ron
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-24, 8:25 pm |
| On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:35:40 -0700, DJ <dj_macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 24, 6:40 am, Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenf...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>Don't we all ;-).
>
>
>Well, firstly, put in a generator bypass switch; lets the generator
>bypass the whole inverter-battery process.
Yes, that was part of the initial installation.
>Secondly, maybe get a step-up transformer (T-240, X-240, whatever) so
>you can run your well pump off 120v
I've thought of that. But if it's only a few days for a replacement, I can
live with occasional generator runs for water.
>With OutBack stuff, it's board swap. I've replaced boards on OutBacks
>from arrival at the client site to turning the DC breaker back on
>afterwards: two hours downtime. It's been my experience that boards
>can be shipped out from OutBack in a day. Someone mentioned doing a
>'board-ectomy' on a Trace, so it might be possible too. Now that
>they're dropping the SW and the SW+ for the new XW, might start
>getting more interesting.
Don't have Outback, so that suggestion doesn't work for me.
--ron
| |
| George Ghio 2007-06-25, 3:25 am |
| Well wayne, this is not your original story where you pulled out the circuit board and cleaned it up
before sending it back.
But I will let Xantrex speak for themselves, note section 2:
Xantrex Technology Inc. warrants its power products against defects in materials and workmanship for a
period of two (2) years from the date of purchase and extends this warranty to all purchasers or
owners of the
product during the warranty period. This warranty is void under the following circumstances:
(1) improper and/or unauthorized repair not provided by Xantrex Technology Inc., or its Authorized
Service Centers;
(2) when the product is installed or exposed or exposed to an unsuitable environment as evidenced
by generalized corrosion or biological infestation;
(3) abnormal use of the product or use in violation of the instructions;
(4) when used as a component parts of a product expressly warranted by another manufacturer.
wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:32:05 +1000, George Ghio
> <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> No, it's a case of you telling easily refutable bald-faced lies as
> usual.
>
>
> I told the factory up front that it appeared to me that a bug had
> shorted out a transistor. They knew immediately that it was probably
> true since they'd seen it happen before. The SWs are vented with
> fairly large slots, and small bugs can and do get inside and
> occasionally kill a board. Which is why the factory repaired the
> toasted bits without charge. And probably one of the reasons why when
> the engineers went "out back", their next design was completely
> sealed. Of course you couldn't know any of that because nitwits aren't
> allowed to work on SWs or FXs.
>
> Have you considered that if you had a life beyond being a pathetic
> lying quack, that the rest of us would never have gotten the
> opportunity to laugh at you being mocked in online videos? Just a
> suggestion....
>
> Wayne
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-06-25, 9:25 am |
| I've had to call xantrex three times in the last four years. Always quick to
respond, accurate and helpful. I have the Xantrex Prosine 3.0 and a Trace
C30 charge controller.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"Bruce in Alaska" <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:bruceg-83D3D6.10081824062007@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com>,
> Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>
> My SW4024 is one of the very early Production Models. Not a burp, so far,
> after many years of operation. I would guess that Trace isn't really as
> good at Customer Service, since being sold out. If I were buying today,
> OutBack would be my Brand. I know these guys, and they are ALWAYS there
> if you need them.....
>
> Bruce in alaska
> --
> add a <2> before @
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-06-25, 9:25 am |
| "Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:tlit7311vbb3odihas9qmlbuifc3ufe5cj@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:30:25 +1000, George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>
> Just to add to my previous reply, the SW5548's also contain battery
> chargers powered by the backup generator. When in that mode (perhaps 100
> hrs/year), they do get hot. Otherwise they remain cool to the touch.
> --ron
My Xantrex Inverter Charger (Prosine 3.0) has a set of fans that come on and
go off as necessary to keep the unit cool. I'm sure many other quality units
do as well. The outside of my case is barely warm at full load.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-25, 9:25 am |
| On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:15:09 -0400, "Steve Spence"
<sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
>news:tlit7311vbb3odihas9qmlbuifc3ufe5cj@4ax.com...
>
>My Xantrex Inverter Charger (Prosine 3.0) has a set of fans that come on and
>go off as necessary to keep the unit cool. I'm sure many other quality units
>do as well. The outside of my case is barely warm at full load.
I miswrote. I've not measured the case temperature, but the room
temperature (before additional ventilation measures where instituted) would
go up 20-30°F.
--ron
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-25, 9:25 am |
| On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:03:06 -0400, "Steve Spence"
<sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>I've had to call xantrex three times in the last four years. Always quick to
>respond, accurate and helpful. I have the Xantrex Prosine 3.0 and a Trace
>C30 charge controller.
That's good to know. I have not had to call them for about five or six
years. When I did (they were still Trace at the time), they were good on
the phone, but non-existent via email.
--ron
| |
|
| In article <467f30d7$0$16281$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
> But I will let Xantrex speak for themselves, note section 2:
Only problem for you here DUFUS, is that Wayne did all this BEFORE
Xantrex bought Trace. Therefore your above statements are not germain
to the conversation. AS USUAL..... when are you going to keep up with
the conversation....
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2007-06-25, 5:25 pm |
| In article <m4iv73t07gnfe128e90smgahbsn0geu7kk@4ax.com>,
Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:03:06 -0400, "Steve Spence"
> <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
> That's good to know. I have not had to call them for about five or six
> years. When I did (they were still Trace at the time), they were good on
> the phone, but non-existent via email.
> --ron
You have to know that Trace, back in those days, only had Dialup Internet
connections, and they were located fairly far back in the Woods of
Western Washington State. Things have progressed considerable for
Internet availability around Arlington in the last half decade.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| George Ghio 2007-06-25, 8:25 pm |
| You wrote:
> In article <467f30d7$0$16281$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> Only problem for you here DUFUS, is that Wayne did all this BEFORE
> Xantrex bought Trace. Therefore your above statements are not germain
> to the conversation. AS USUAL..... when are you going to keep up with
> the conversation....
OOOh, what a wanker. In the last twenty years I have never seen an inverter warranty that would
accept that type of damage.
waynes original story was that he pulled he circuit boards, cleaned up the evidence and sent them back.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-06-25, 8:25 pm |
| On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:53:53 +1000, George Ghio
<ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>Well wayne, this is not your original story where you pulled out the circuit board and cleaned it up
>before sending it back.
Then why not show that quote - other than the fact that your claim is
just another outrageous lie made from whole cloth? Same-old same-old
Ghinius, too dim to add anything useful to discussions, but compulsive
enough to waste his life writing self-destructive BS.
Wayne
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-06-25, 8:25 pm |
| On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:37:13 GMT, You <You@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>In article <467f30d7$0$16281$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>Only problem for you here DUFUS, is that Wayne did all this BEFORE
>Xantrex bought Trace. Therefore your above statements are not germain
>to the conversation.
Now now, why would readers expect a guy who claims to be in the solar
biz to know about minor details like that? And who could expect him to
locate the exact language of Trace's standard warranty after all these
years, even though I was able to find it in about 30 seconds.
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/70/docserve.asp (pg 10).
Since Judge Nitwit has declared my installation unworthy, I guess I'll
have to rely on the (worthless) opinion of a writer who had this to
say about my installation: "I like his work. Most people endup with a
real rats nest of wiring. Waynes system is a good clean installation.
Have a look." "I like Wayne's work it is neat and tidy. Look at the
pictures on his
site." http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/image...verter_half.jpg
Perhaps that poster meant to say that my installation was "good,
clean, neat, and tidy"... except for being vermin-ridden. The Ghinius
might do a Google search to see whose writing could be so misleading.
:-)
>AS USUAL..... when are you going to keep up with
>the conversation....
Perhaps after he sees his first SW? Maybe a brain dea... er, kind
reader will let him touch theirs with a ten foot pole. :-)
Wayne
| |
| beemerwacker 2007-06-26, 3:25 am |
| On Jun 25, 7:02 pm, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:53:53 +1000, George Ghio
>
> <g...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
> Then why not show that quote - other than the fact that your claim is
> just another outrageous lie made from whole cloth? Same-old same-old
> Ghinius, too dim to add anything useful to discussions, but compulsive
> enough to waste his life writing self-destructive BS.
>
> Wayne
He can do that because he has so much surplus power from whichever
system he happens to be using at that particular moment when he is
insulting whichever person that is politely responding to a post from
whichever person that he is attempting to alienate at that time of the
day depending on how much power he is (or isn't) producing from
whichever system (that may or may not exist) that is charging his bank
to 10% of the total that seems to charge the bank to 100% but only
every 20 days or 3 weeks which seems to be the day that a Kangaroo
jumps through the space between the 40 sets of Harbor Freight panel
kits that he has.
Yes, it's true. I hacked into the Harbor Freight web site and got the
entire history of certain orders. 40 Harbor Freight kits were
delivered to someone we all know and love here in the newsgroups that
lives in a southern latitude on an island continent.
The denials should be plenty fun and quick in coming.
| |
| George Ghio 2007-06-26, 3:25 am |
| beemerwacker wrote:
> On Jun 25, 7:02 pm, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
>
> He can do that because he has so much surplus power from whichever
> system he happens to be using at that particular moment when he is
> insulting whichever person that is politely responding to a post from
> whichever person that he is attempting to alienate at that time of the
> day depending on how much power he is (or isn't) producing from
> whichever system (that may or may not exist) that is charging his bank
> to 10% of the total that seems to charge the bank to 100% but only
> every 20 days or 3 weeks which seems to be the day that a Kangaroo
> jumps through the space between the 40 sets of Harbor Freight panel
> kits that he has.
>
> Yes, it's true. I hacked into the Harbor Freight web site and got the
> entire history of certain orders. 40 Harbor Freight kits were
> delivered to someone we all know and love here in the newsgroups that
> lives in a southern latitude on an island continent.
>
> The denials should be plenty fun and quick in coming.
>
More of the "Your mother wears army boots" jibes from the newsgroups child care center.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| GreenPower 2007-06-26, 8:34 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Neon John
..........
One last thing, go over again your lightning protection. One trick that I learned
from years of maintaining mountain-top 2-way radios is to coil every lead that goes
into or out of the device into a couple of loops, maybe a foot in diameter. Upstream
of the loop (toward the lightning), provide a very close arc gap for the lightning to
divert through to ground.
John, this is a neat trick. If wiring is already done, investing in a Delta lightning arrestor and surge protector would be a good choice. The lightning arrestor is designed to absorb voltage spike > 600V whereas the surge protector would absorb those < 600V
In regards to power electronics, the 2 common failures are the caps and the FETs (the electronics that "switches" high current). These have their peak operating voltage and current. Designers often choose them just enough to satisfy the product specifications to trim on cost. Heat and how close the product is used to its specified limit would affect their life.
When selecting a power product, you can tell from its modularity whether it was designed to last (or at least serviceable at modular replacement cost). For example, PC power supplies - you can throw it away (swap out the whole thing) if it fails. From OutBack document, their inverter has separate FET board and control board i.e. replacing only the one that fails. Also products designed for industrial use would last much longer than those for home since in industrial enviroment, it is expected to run 24/7 at near its capacity i.e. if you run across a good deal on an industrial component, grab them. | |
| Steve Spence 2007-06-26, 1:25 pm |
| "Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:u1iv73lst7n1furbe516e8bv0sc3v2pev1@4ax.com...
>
> I miswrote. I've not measured the case temperature, but the room
> temperature (before additional ventilation measures where instituted)
> would
> go up 20-30°F.
> --ron
Ah, Mine is kept in the basement, where it's always 60-65F.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
| |
|
| In article <468038e7$0$16301$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
> OOOh, what a wanker. In the last twenty years I have never seen an inverter
> warranty that would accept that type of damage.
Just goes to show that you really don't get out much...... The Old
Trace Guys, now OutBack Guys, use to fix just about anything, if
it even came close to being anything but deliberete damage, and many
times for little, or NO, Customer Expense except for freight.
but then again this was all, BEFORE your time, in the Alternate HomePower
Field, so I guess we should cut you some slack, just because of that....
How would you know...... if you wen't around.....
| |
| George Ghio 2007-06-26, 8:25 pm |
| You wrote:
> In article <468038e7$0$16301$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> George Ghio <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> Just goes to show that you really don't get out much...... The Old
> Trace Guys, now OutBack Guys, use to fix just about anything, if
> it even came close to being anything but deliberete damage, and many
> times for little, or NO, Customer Expense except for freight.
>
> but then again this was all, BEFORE your time, in the Alternate HomePower
> Field, so I guess we should cut you some slack, just because of that....
> How would you know...... if you wen't around.....
Sorry, been doing this since before you got out of short pants.
Try again
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Solar Flaire 2007-06-26, 8:25 pm |
| Most of us wear what ever length pants we desire. We live in free
countries where the choice is ours and the country doesn't decide what
we wear.
"George Ghio" <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
news:46819535$0$10114$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> Sorry, been doing this since before you got out of short pants.
>
> Try again
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
| |
| George Ghio 2007-06-27, 3:25 am |
| Sorry if the historical reference was beyond your understanding.
Solar Flaire wrote:
> Most of us wear what ever length pants we desire. We live in free
> countries where the choice is ours and the country doesn't decide what
> we wear.
>
> "George Ghio" <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:46819535$0$10114$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Ken Finney 2007-06-27, 5:25 pm |
|
"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com...
> My system, which includes a pair of series-stacked SW5548's, has been
> running without difficulty for 6 1/2 years. But I find myself concerned
> about dealing with inverter failure(s).
>
> Does anyone here have data on how long these things might last?
> Strategies to deal with failures in an off-grid system?
>
> I could certainly run off the backup generator, but how long does it take
> to get an SW5548 repaired or replaced? I live in Downeast Maine.
>
> The only critical 240V item I have is the well pump.
>
I'm going to make a suggestion here that I haven't heard before. Most
inverters companies won't repair units past a certain age, and won't make
repair info available to other parties. The two highest failure rate parts
in an inverter are going to be the magnetics (inductors and transformers)
and the capacitors. The next higher failure rate item is probably the power
semiconductors. The magnetics are very likely custom items and repair shops
aren't going to be able to get a hold of them, however the capacitors and
the semiconductors are likely standard parts. However, the capacitors and
power semiconductors are likely to destroy themselves when they fail to the
point that the part numbers will be unreadable when they fail. My
suggestion is that if a person wants to be able to repair an interver in the
future, they should do the best they can to build a parts list and take high
resolution digital photographs of the circuit board before it fails. Both
will be invaluable for a repair shop.
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2007-06-28, 8:25 pm |
| In article <JKB5Er.F07@news.boeing.com>,
"Ken Finney" <kenneth.c.finney@boeing.com> wrote:
> "Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:mmhs73l7b2ajn4um0o59mk1682oa23clkk@4ax.com...
>
> I'm going to make a suggestion here that I haven't heard before. Most
> inverters companies won't repair units past a certain age, and won't make
> repair info available to other parties. The two highest failure rate parts
> in an inverter are going to be the magnetics (inductors and transformers)
> and the capacitors. The next higher failure rate item is probably the power
> semiconductors. The magnetics are very likely custom items and repair shops
> aren't going to be able to get a hold of them, however the capacitors and
> the semiconductors are likely standard parts. However, the capacitors and
> power semiconductors are likely to destroy themselves when they fail to the
> point that the part numbers will be unreadable when they fail. My
> suggestion is that if a person wants to be able to repair an interver in the
> future, they should do the best they can to build a parts list and take high
> resolution digital photographs of the circuit board before it fails. Both
> will be invaluable for a repair shop.
>
>
>
For a "Properly" designed Inverter, the Magnetics are one of the LAST
things that fail, as it takes significant overloads to heat them to
the point of failure, and by that time, the Silicon will have long since
BURNT Open, or the Overcurrent Protection (fuses) will have opened, and
disabled the inverter. Capacitors, in a "Properly" designed Inverter
are only used for Filtering, and Small Signal Coupling, and usually only
fail when the Electrolyte Dries out, from overheating and age.
Semiconductors can usually be Second Sourced, if the OEM DOESN'T paint
over the Identifacation Information, and the same with most of the
Low Level Circuitry. The Magnetics are usually Custom or OEM Spec'd
for that particular unit, and are usually not stocked by the Supplier to
the OEM much after the Production Run, and a few spares.
Pictures are worth a Thousand Words, of documentation, anyday.....
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| Soundhaspriority 2007-06-29, 3:25 am |
|
"George Ghio" <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
news:467ee48a$0$16391$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
[snip][color=darkred]
>
> You should be in pretty good shape then. Another big killer is vermin.
>
I have an SW4024+. About two years ago, it appeared to lose charge control,
randomly ramping up the battery voltage. I'd reset it, it would work a bit,
and then lose charge control.
And then the problem disappeared and never came back. It's been good a year.
I have alway suspected that a bug crawled in, lodged, died, and created a
leakage path, until it completely dessicated.
It might be helpful to cover the ventilation ports with a finer mesh screen,
and remove the mesh with warm weather outages.
I would also store the spare in a heated space. I have specific experience
with electronic equipment destroyed by Vermont cold. It cracks component
seals.
Bob Morein
Dresher, PA
(215) 646-4894
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-06-29, 8:25 pm |
| On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:27:08 -0400, "Soundhaspriority"
<nowhere@nowhere.org> wrote:
>I would also store the spare in a heated space. I have specific experience
>with electronic equipment destroyed by Vermont cold. It cracks component
>seals.
Ah, too late, probably. IT's been in unheated space for seven years.
--ron
| |
| Solar Flaire 2007-07-04, 3:25 am |
| You mean cultural. This never happenned in North America. We grew out
of most of the little boy and girl stuff.
"George Ghio" <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4681eb71$0$16371$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> Sorry if the historical reference was beyond your understanding.
>
> Solar Flaire wrote:
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
| |
| George Ghio 2007-07-04, 3:25 am |
| When do we get to the impostor?
Solar Flaire wrote:
> You mean cultural. This never happenned in North America. We grew out
> of most of the little boy and girl stuff.
>
> "George Ghio" <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4681eb71$0$16371$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Solar Flaire 2007-07-05, 3:25 am |
| Are you on a poster too?
"George Ghio" <ghio@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
news:468b341d$0$16267$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> When do we get to the impostor?
>
> Solar Flaire wrote:
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
|
|
|
|
|