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DIY ground source heating
|
|
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-29, 9:25 am |
| Hi folks,
I've been thinking about a simplified ground source heating setup for
DIY and would value constructive and educated input.
You hopefully already know how ground-source heating works:
Water is pumped through buried pipes and fed through a heatpump to
concentrate the collected heat.
My simplified method would be to do away with the heatpump and water
systems and suck (not blow!) air through slightly larger diameter
buried pipes directly , with a constriction at the intake end. Since
the air would be at a lower pressure inside the tube it would heat up
as it regains ambient pressure indoors (similar to how heat pumps
work).
The air would obviously be fed over the pump/fan motor to salvage heat
from that too.
(At daytime the air could be sucked through solar boxes which are
warmer than the ground would be, but my main concern is night time
heating.)
My rough calculations say that the low pressures achieved by a high
powered vacuum cleaner are adequate (remembering that degrees Kelvin
must be used for the maths). Obviously I don't plan to use a vacuum
cleaner for anything other than tests
but a purpose built vacuum pump.
So the big question is:
Could this setup approach the energy efficiency of an air conditioning
unit or existing ground source heating system?
Mechanically it would be a much simpler system to build and maintain.
The second idea is for a refinement to above:
Instead of sucking air through a constriction, how about recouping
that energy by powering a smaller air motor from it and mechanically
returning some energy to the vacuum pump?
In practice, the unit would be designed to do both, running on a
single shaft with the air motor being a slightly smaller capacity
version of the vacuum pump doing the suction work.
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-29, 9:25 am |
| On 29 Jun, 13:55, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> Hi folks,
> I've been thinking about a simplified ground source heating setup for
> DIY and would value constructive and educated input.
>
> You hopefully already know how ground-source heating works:
> Water is pumped through buried pipes and fed through a heatpump to
> concentrate the collected heat.
>
> My simplified method would be to do away with the heatpump and water
> systems and suck (not blow!) air through slightly larger diameter
> buried pipes directly , with a constriction at the intake end. Since
> the air would be at a lower pressure inside the tube it would heat up
> as it regains ambient pressure indoors (similar to how heat pumps
> work).
> The air would obviously be fed over the pump/fan motor to salvage heat
> from that too.
>
> (At daytime the air could be sucked through solar boxes which are
> warmer than the ground would be, but my main concern is night time
> heating.)
>
> My rough calculations say that the low pressures achieved by a high
> powered vacuum cleaner are adequate (remembering that degrees Kelvin
> must be used for the maths). Obviously I don't plan to use a vacuum
> cleaner for anything other than tests
> but a purpose built vacuum pump.
>
> So the big question is:
> Could this setup approach the energy efficiency of an air conditioning
> unit or existing ground source heating system?
> Mechanically it would be a much simpler system to build and maintain.
>
> The second idea is for a refinement to above:
> Instead of sucking air through a constriction, how about recouping
> that energy by powering a smaller air motor from it and mechanically
> returning some energy to the vacuum pump?
> In practice, the unit would be designed to do both, running on a
> single shaft with the air motor being a slightly smaller capacity
> version of the vacuum pump doing the suction work.
| |
| RW Salnick 2007-06-29, 9:25 am |
| markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
> Hi folks,
> I've been thinking about a simplified ground source heating setup for
> DIY and would value constructive and educated input.
>
> You hopefully already know how ground-source heating works:
> Water is pumped through buried pipes and fed through a heatpump to
> concentrate the collected heat.
>
> My simplified method would be to do away with the heatpump and water
> systems and suck (not blow!) air through slightly larger diameter
> buried pipes directly , with a constriction at the intake end. Since
> the air would be at a lower pressure inside the tube it would heat up
> as it regains ambient pressure indoors (similar to how heat pumps
> work).
> The air would obviously be fed over the pump/fan motor to salvage heat
> from that too.
>
> (At daytime the air could be sucked through solar boxes which are
> warmer than the ground would be, but my main concern is night time
> heating.)
>
> My rough calculations say that the low pressures achieved by a high
> powered vacuum cleaner are adequate (remembering that degrees Kelvin
> must be used for the maths). Obviously I don't plan to use a vacuum
> cleaner for anything other than tests
> but a purpose built vacuum pump.
>
> So the big question is:
> Could this setup approach the energy efficiency of an air conditioning
> unit or existing ground source heating system?
> Mechanically it would be a much simpler system to build and maintain.
>
>
>
> The second idea is for a refinement to above:
> Instead of sucking air through a constriction, how about recouping
> that energy by powering a smaller air motor from it and mechanically
> returning some energy to the vacuum pump?
> In practice, the unit would be designed to do both, running on a
> single shaft with the air motor being a slightly smaller capacity
> version of the vacuum pump doing the suction work.
>
I have NOT done the maths, but it would seem that the amount of
compressional heating/cooling available from a pressure change measured
in inches of water column would be negligible. So then it comes down to
the temperature of the ground at your vicinity, which should be the
average of the air temperature for the year. If this temp such that it
would be comfortable in the house, then this might work. But I think
you'd have to be pretty far south to get those kinds of ground temps.
In the 70's I considered storing heat in a thermally isolated block of
soil the size of my basement. The plan was to excavate a hole, line it
with extruded polystyrene sheet foam, and then refill it. During the
refil process, a series of clay tile or PVC pipes 6" in diameter would
be buried in the isolated soil.
Then during the summer, air would be blown thru the pipe, and the cool
air returning would be used to cool the house, while at the same time
slowly heating the soil block. In the winter, the heat stored in the
block would be recovered to warm the house in the same way. As it
turned out, this would work, but the bulk of the heat energy was not
usable with this direct process (who wants to "heat" their house with
62degree air?). But I think it would have worked well as a ground
source for a heat pump.
bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle
| |
| Eeyore 2007-06-29, 1:25 pm |
|
markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
> Since the air would be at a lower pressure inside the tube it would heat up
> as it regains ambient pressure indoors (similar to how heat pumps
> work).
That means you would be heating the house indirectly with energy from the pump.
In other words with electricity.
Graham
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-06-29, 1:25 pm |
| Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>That means you would be heating the house indirectly with energy from the pump.
>In other words with electricity.
OTOH, we might cool more efficiently by pumping pumped-warmed air into
an earth tube and letting it cool and recovering some of the pumping
energy with a windmill at the end of the tube.
Nick
| |
| jamesgangnc 2007-06-29, 5:25 pm |
| That would be "free" energy if it worked. That's why it won't work.
You can assume that for all your diy projects that the laws of energy
conservation are still in place.
On Jun 29, 9:20 am, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> On 29 Jun, 13:55, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-29, 5:25 pm |
| On 29 Jun, 22:29, jamesgangnc <jamesgan...@earthlink.net> wrote:[color=darkred]
> That would be "free" energy if it worked. That's why it won't work.
> You can assume that for all your diy projects that the laws of energy
> conservation are still in place.
>
> On Jun 29, 9:20 am, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Well no, modern heatpumps have an efficiency of 3+, meaning that for
every kw input they collect another 2kw's worth of ambient heat. I was
wondering if my simpler setup would be as energy efficient as a
factory built ground source system but much simpler.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-06-29, 5:25 pm |
| <markzoom@digiverse.net> wrote:
>... modern heatpumps have an efficiency of 3+, meaning that for
>every kw input they collect another 2kw's worth of ambient heat.
I think you mean 3 kW, with a COP of 3.
Nick
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-29, 5:25 pm |
| On 29 Jun, 20:13, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
> That means you would be heating the house indirectly with energy from the pump.
> In other words with electricity.
>
> Graham
Well no, the heat from the motor is additional to the absorbed heat
released by negative pressure warmed air recompressing, that's how
heatpumps work, though a phase change refrigerant is more efficient at
it than air.
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-29, 5:25 pm |
| On 29 Jun, 20:43, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> OTOH, we might cool more efficiently by pumping pumped-warmed air into
> an earth tube and letting it cool and recovering some of the pumping
> energy with a windmill at the end of the tube.
>
> Nick
I don't need cooling effect but routing ventilation through a buried
tube would achieve that effect at daytime. I'm more interested in
heating.
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-29, 5:25 pm |
| On 29 Jun, 17:20, RW Salnick <s...@none.none> wrote:
> markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have NOT done the maths, but it would seem that the amount of
> compressional heating/cooling available from a pressure change measured
> in inches of water column would be negligible. So then it comes down to
> the temperature of the ground at your vicinity, which should be the
> average of the air temperature for the year. If this temp such that it
> would be comfortable in the house, then this might work. But I think
> you'd have to be pretty far south to get those kinds of ground temps.
>
> In the 70's I considered storing heat in a thermally isolated block of
> soil the size of my basement. The plan was to excavate a hole, line it
> with extruded polystyrene sheet foam, and then refill it. During the
> refil process, a series of clay tile or PVC pipes 6" in diameter would
> be buried in the isolated soil.
>
> Then during the summer, air would be blown thru the pipe, and the cool
> air returning would be used to cool the house, while at the same time
> slowly heating the soil block. In the winter, the heat stored in the
> block would be recovered to warm the house in the same way. As it
> turned out, this would work, but the bulk of the heat energy was not
> usable with this direct process (who wants to "heat" their house with
> 62degree air?). But I think it would have worked well as a ground
> source for a heat pump.
>
> bob
> s/v Eolian
> Seattle
I winter day temp is around 15C, night 11C, so i would expect the
ground temp to be around 13C (290 Kelvin). I want to get 50C (323
Kelvin) out of the tube, so the air pressure in the tube should be
about 323/290 = approx 0.9 Bar (taking 1 Bar as ambient pressure). The
question is how much air can pulled through at 0.9 of ambient
pressure with, say, a 1kw vacuum pump.
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-29, 5:25 pm |
| On 29 Jun, 17:20, RW Salnick <s...@none.none> wrote:
> markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
[snip]
>
> In the 70's I considered storing heat in a thermally isolated block of
> soil the size of my basement. The plan was to excavate a hole, line it
> with extruded polystyrene sheet foam, and then refill it. During the
> refil process, a series of clay tile or PVC pipes 6" in diameter would
> be buried in the isolated soil.
>
> Then during the summer, air would be blown thru the pipe, and the cool
> air returning would be used to cool the house, while at the same time
> slowly heating the soil block. In the winter, the heat stored in the
> block would be recovered to warm the house in the same way. As it
> turned out, this would work, but the bulk of the heat energy was not
> usable with this direct process (who wants to "heat" their house with
> 62degree air?). But I think it would have worked well as a ground
> source for a heat pump.
>
> bob
> s/v Eolian
> Seattle
I'm considering a similar thing for night-time heating, namely an
insulated pit filled with black basalt rock and double glazed on top
to collect sunlight. A reflective blind automatically pulled over it
at night should preserve much of the heat.
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-29, 8:25 pm |
| On 30 Jun, 00:33, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> <markz...@digiverse.net> wrote:
>
> I think you mean 3 kW, with a COP of 3.
>
> Nick
I was guesstimating, as substantial wattage comes from the heat of the
motor. Glad to learn I underestimated, thanks for the correction.
| |
| Bruce Richmond 2007-06-29, 8:25 pm |
| On Jun 29, 6:37 pm, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> On 30 Jun, 00:33, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I was guesstimating, as substantial wattage comes from the heat of the
> motor. Glad to learn I underestimated, thanks for the correction.
You had it right. A COP of 3 means the pump puts out 3 times as much
energy as what is put in to run it. If all you get out is the work
you put in the COP is 1. If the COP is higher than 1 only the
additional heat was taken from the source.
Bruce
| |
| geothermaljones 2007-06-29, 8:25 pm |
| Figure in the energy required to make the air move through those "slightly
larger diameter buried pipes" You will need to push & pull the air at both
ends. There's a reason they're called blowers, not suckers...
The Static pressure will be a killer, & blowers don't handle Negative
Suction Head Pressures as well as a pump.
High velocity systems use short lengths of small duct, & need much larger
blowers to do it.
A typical 3-4 Ton High Velocity system can require a 3/4 HP motor (Shhh,
that's a secret) or more to deliver the air, in contrast to a standard low
static system using a 1/4 to 1/3 HP motor. Variable speed is not an option
either...
They also have that huge short return connection so it can use near every
bit of its power to push that air.
In geothermal systems the tubing can be anywhere from 300'-1000' in length,
per ton.
The more ground contact the better, so they have to be separated & buried
deep.
Vertical loops contact much more ground that horizontal "slinkies" so the
tubing is much shorter, 300-400' vs. 800'-1000'.
Upsizing the tube will get you more surface area ground contact, but the
price of buying & burying bigger pipe will need consideration. Vertical
loops would be out of the question.
Since Air has a HC (heat constant) is roughly .075 vs. the HC of 1 for
water, this means a pound of air can transfer a lot less heat than a pound
of water...
& the air will occupy roughly 12-14 cu.ft volume per lb, vs. the pound of
water only taking the space of this nice cold beverage next to my keyboard.
Since air can be compressed & decompressed, blah blah blah...
Take a look at the 3-6" tubes installed below walk in freezers & the like.
They keep the ground from freezing & frost heaves from busting up the floor.
& they only need to deliver about 2-4 btu/sf...
Of course I could be wrong...
Now let's talk about those outfits burying soft copper & pumping refrigerant
through it...
goodluck
geothermaljones
st.paul,mn.
<markzoom@digiverse.net> wrote in message
news:1183123205.758832.53070@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On 29 Jun, 13:55, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
| |
| Eeyore 2007-06-29, 8:25 pm |
|
markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
> On 29 Jun, 20:13, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Well no, the heat from the motor is additional to the absorbed heat
> released by negative pressure warmed air recompressing, that's how
> heatpumps work, though a phase change refrigerant is more efficient at
> it than air.
The power from the pump (not the waste heat) still 'goes somewhere'. You're not
looking at the whole picture.
Graham
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-30, 9:25 am |
| On 30 Jun, 03:17, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
> The power from the pump (not the waste heat) still 'goes somewhere'. You're not
> looking at the whole picture.
>
> Graham
It does, but the heatpump arrangement collects extra wattage that you
wouldn't get if you just used a bar heater of the same wattage as the
motor.
Anyway... it looks like I'll have to do some testing.
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-30, 9:25 am |
| On 30 Jun, 02:04, Bruce Richmond <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Jun 29, 6:37 pm, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You had it right. A COP of 3 means the pump puts out 3 times as much
> energy as what is put in to run it. If all you get out is the work
> you put in the COP is 1. If the COP is higher than 1 only the
> additional heat was taken from the source.
>
> Bruce
Aha!
OK, now I just have to see how in/efficient it is by using just air
instead of refrigerant warmed by water. It's really the utter
simplicity and ease of self-maintenance of my system I find
attractive.
I'm not interested in cooling but just blowing air through buried
tubes sounds like a simple and energy efficient option for those in
hot climates.
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-06-30, 9:25 am |
| On 30 Jun, 02:53, "geothermaljones" <geothermaljo...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Figure in the energy required to make the air move through those "slightly
> larger diameter buried pipes" You will need to push & pull the air at both
> ends. There's a reason they're called blowers, not suckers...
> The Static pressure will be a killer, & blowers don't handle Negative
> Suction Head Pressures as well as a pump.
No.
The whole point of the setup is to have negative pressure air in the
tube which gives off the gained heat when it recompresses to ambient
on exit past the vaccum pump into the house. There can't be any
"pushing", for heating it's got to be suction only. The tubes can be
paralleled to make suction easier.
>
> High velocity systems use short lengths of small duct, & need much larger
> blowers to do it.
> A typical 3-4 Ton High Velocity system can require a 3/4 HP motor (Shhh,
> that's a secret) or more to deliver the air, in contrast to a standard low
> static system using a 1/4 to 1/3 HP motor. Variable speed is not an option
> either...
> They also have that huge short return connection so it can use near every
> bit of its power to push that air.
For heating the air has to be pulled through the tube to create the
negative pressure needed for the heatpump effect.
>
> In geothermal systems the tubing can be anywhere from 300'-1000' in length,
> per ton.
> The more ground contact the better, so they have to be separated & buried
> deep.
> Vertical loops contact much more ground that horizontal "slinkies" so the
> tubing is much shorter, 300-400' vs. 800'-1000'.
> Upsizing the tube will get you more surface area ground contact, but the
> price of buying & burying bigger pipe will need consideration. Vertical
> loops would be out of the question.
>
> Since Air has a HC (heat constant) is roughly .075 vs. the HC of 1 for
> water, this means a pound of air can transfer a lot less heat than a pound
> of water...
> & the air will occupy roughly 12-14 cu.ft volume per lb, vs. the pound of
> water only taking the space of this nice cold beverage next to my keyboard.
Yes, point taken. The heat capacity of air is pretty bad and it takes
more energy to move the heat around in air as it does in water.
>
> Since air can be compressed & decompressed, blah blah blah...
>
> Take a look at the 3-6" tubes installed below walk in freezers & the like.
> They keep the ground from freezing & frost heaves from busting up the floor.
> & they only need to deliver about 2-4 btu/sf...
>
> Of course I could be wrong...
>
> Now let's talk about those outfits burying soft copper & pumping refrigerant
> through it...
Using refrigerant isn't an option at the place I want to do this,
though Butane and Propane are easily available. I want to avoid
fiddling with gases.
You seem to be savvy with geo, there's a slim chance that might be of
use as the place is partially low activity volcanic (Azores).
Any tips for DIY slow drilling of f%^%ing hard basalt?
Hiring a drilling rig is out of the question so it would have to be be
a purely DIY effort. The only tube available is galvanised steel water
pipe, scaffold and plastic. An Ultrasonic drill bit crossed my mind.
[color=darkred]
>
> goodluck
> geothermaljones
> st.paul,mn.
>
> <markz...@digiverse.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1183123205.758832.53070@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| Bruce Richmond 2007-06-30, 1:25 pm |
| On Jun 29, 8:17 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
> The power from the pump (not the waste heat) still 'goes somewhere'. You're not
> looking at the whole picture.
>
> Graham
When you pump water to a higher level where does the energy go? It
does not become water. I raises the water to a higher energy level by
forcing it to flow counter to its natural direction. A heat pump does
the same thing with heat. It uses mechanical energy to make heat flow
from cool to warm, against its natural direction. The mechanical
energy doesn't need to come from an electric motor. That just happens
to be the most common way of providing the mechanical energy for a
heat pump.
Bruce
| |
| Bruce Richmond 2007-06-30, 5:25 pm |
| On Jun 30, 6:19 am, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> On 30 Jun, 02:53, "geothermaljones" <geothermaljo...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> No.
> The whole point of the setup is to have negative pressure air in the
> tube which gives off the gained heat when it recompresses to ambient
> on exit past the vaccum pump into the house. There can't be any
> "pushing", for heating it's got to be suction only. The tubes can be
> paralleled to make suction easier.
>
>
>
>
> For heating the air has to be pulled through the tube to create the
> negative pressure needed for the heatpump effect.
>
It can be made to work either way, with vaccum or pressure. All you
need is a pressure difference. When you compress the air in the room
it gets warmer. Let that heat disipate into the room so that the
compressed air is back down to room temperture before it leaves the
room. Allow the air to expand in the ground tubes, recovering some
energy with a turbo fan if you like. The expansion will lower the
temperture of the air enough so that it can absorb heat from the
ground before returning to the compressor.
The only reason I can see for going with vaccum is that it allows the
living space to be at ambient pressure. It does seem like a good idea
after thinking about it though. It eliminates the need for any heat
transfer from the hot side of the system to the room's air since the
room's air is the working fluid of the pump. Even though the room is
at ambient pressure it is the high pressure side of the system.
geothermaljones is correct in what he says about blowing vs sucking,
but I think the "Negative Suction Head Pressures" will be low enough
so that it wont make much difference. On the calculation of that
pressure you used 323/290 to come up with .9 Bar. 13C is 286 Kelvin.
Why so warm on the hot side? Normal room temperture is more like 23C
or 296 Kelvin. That would give a pressure differential of .034 Bar.
While you would need more to get a temperture difference for heat
transfer through the wall of the tubes it shouldn't take anywhere
near .9 Bar. Along the same lines, heat transfer is better when the
air is under pressure. More molocules contact the surface in a given
time. But the pressure difference is so small it shouldn't make much
difference if you are + or - .05 Bar from ambient.
Biggest problem I can see is the cost of installing the buried pipes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, point taken. The heat capacity of air is pretty bad and it takes
> more energy to move the heat around in air as it does in water.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Using refrigerant isn't an option at the place I want to do this,
> though Butane and Propane are easily available. I want to avoid
> fiddling with gases.
Using air as the working fluid should not be a big problem. A
Sterling engine is like a steam engine without the liquid phase. It
produces mechanical energy by allowing heat to flow from hot to cold.
If you reverse the cycle, putting mechanical energy in, you can
transfer heat from the cold side to the hot side.
> You seem to be savvy with geo, there's a slim chance that might be of
> use as the place is partially low activity volcanic (Azores).
> Any tips for DIY slow drilling of f%^%ing hard basalt?
> Hiring a drilling rig is out of the question so it would have to be be
> a purely DIY effort. The only tube available is galvanised steel water
> pipe, scaffold and plastic. An Ultrasonic drill bit crossed my mind.
>
Check your actual ground temperture. You may find it higher than 13C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
| |
| geothermaljones 2007-06-30, 8:25 pm |
| I give up...
How can you draw a vacuum on pipes of this size length without a huge pump?
Have you ever used a vacuum pump on a refrigeration system?
These units are built like tanks, weigh a ton & have huge power to draw down
very small (relatively) quantities of copper linesets, You plan to do it
how?
Key to swapping heat is based on a difference in temperature, the larger the
better.
At what pressure in side the pipe will you be able to transfer 12,000 btuh
of heat to any amount of 60dF air
in order for it to deliver that ton of heat to the space at say 80dF?
Burying the pipe in Basalt will incur a massive expense.
Even a conventional system will prove more cost effective in the long run.
VFRZ with inverter drives will do even better.
I've always been intrigued by Sterling engines, but haven't spent the time
on learning the process...
Dean Kamen has one in his home doesn't he?
More as an inspirational ornament, than an actual tool.
goodluck
geothermaljones
st.paul,mn.
"Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1183237661.935897.194520@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 30, 6:19 am, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
"slightly[color=darkred]
both[color=darkred]
larger[color=darkred]
(Shhh,[color=darkred]
low[color=darkred]
option[color=darkred]
every[color=darkred]
>
> It can be made to work either way, with vaccum or pressure. All you
> need is a pressure difference. When you compress the air in the room
> it gets warmer. Let that heat disipate into the room so that the
> compressed air is back down to room temperture before it leaves the
> room. Allow the air to expand in the ground tubes, recovering some
> energy with a turbo fan if you like. The expansion will lower the
> temperture of the air enough so that it can absorb heat from the
> ground before returning to the compressor.
>
> The only reason I can see for going with vaccum is that it allows the
> living space to be at ambient pressure. It does seem like a good idea
> after thinking about it though. It eliminates the need for any heat
> transfer from the hot side of the system to the room's air since the
> room's air is the working fluid of the pump. Even though the room is
> at ambient pressure it is the high pressure side of the system.
>
> geothermaljones is correct in what he says about blowing vs sucking,
> but I think the "Negative Suction Head Pressures" will be low enough
> so that it wont make much difference. On the calculation of that
> pressure you used 323/290 to come up with .9 Bar. 13C is 286 Kelvin.
> Why so warm on the hot side? Normal room temperture is more like 23C
> or 296 Kelvin. That would give a pressure differential of .034 Bar.
> While you would need more to get a temperture difference for heat
> transfer through the wall of the tubes it shouldn't take anywhere
> near .9 Bar. Along the same lines, heat transfer is better when the
> air is under pressure. More molocules contact the surface in a given
> time. But the pressure difference is so small it shouldn't make much
> difference if you are + or - .05 Bar from ambient.
>
> Biggest problem I can see is the cost of installing the buried pipes.
>
length,[color=darkred]
buried[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
Vertical[color=darkred]
pound[color=darkred]
of[color=darkred]
keyboard.[color=darkred]
like.[color=darkred]
floor.[color=darkred]
refrigerant[color=darkred]
>
> Using air as the working fluid should not be a big problem. A
> Sterling engine is like a steam engine without the liquid phase. It
> produces mechanical energy by allowing heat to flow from hot to cold.
> If you reverse the cycle, putting mechanical energy in, you can
> transfer heat from the cold side to the hot side.
>
>
> Check your actual ground temperture. You may find it higher than 13C.
>
for[color=darkred]
water[color=darkred]
Since[color=darkred]
up[color=darkred]
heat[color=darkred]
high[color=darkred]
Kelvin[color=darkred]
vacuum[color=darkred]
conditioning[color=darkred]
maintain.[color=darkred]
mechanically[color=darkred]
text -[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-07-01, 9:25 am |
| On 1 Jul, 01:40, "geothermaljones" <geothermaljo...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> I give up...
>
> How can you draw a vacuum on pipes of this size length without a huge pump?
> Have you ever used a vacuum pump on a refrigeration system?
> These units are built like tanks, weigh a ton & have huge power to draw down
> very small (relatively) quantities of copper linesets, You plan to do it
> how?
To give you an idea, a 1kw domestic vacuum cleaner provides a similar
negative air pressure and volume to what is required. The challenge is
to make a quieter silenced unit in a box designed for continuous
running (thinking largish diameter centrifugal disk fan on a 1kw
motor).
The tubes can be paralleled instead of in series.
>
> Key to swapping heat is based on a difference in temperature, the larger the
> better.
> At what pressure in side the pipe will you be able to transfer 12,000 btuh
> of heat to any amount of 60dF air
> in order for it to deliver that ton of heat to the space at say 80dF?
>
> Burying the pipe in Basalt will incur a massive expense.
It's layered soft ash/ basalt. The basalt is only a problem if
drilling vertical for geothermal. I was wondering if a suitably
designed powerful ultrasonic transducer could be left to erode itself
through it slowly.
> Even a conventional system will prove more cost effective in the long run.
> VFRZ with inverter drives will do even better.
What's VFRZ ?
>
> I've always been intrigued by Sterling engines, but haven't spent the time
> on learning the process...
> Dean Kamen has one in his home doesn't he?
> More as an inspirational ornament, than an actual tool.
Not at all, there are a variety of solar Stirlings about.
The principle is quite simple, one just moves air back and forth
between the hot and cold ends and exploits the contraction/expansion
with a piston. The solid lump that takes up the space instead of air
at hot/cold end doesn't have to seal, it's just moved there to take up
space at the right time in the cycle.
[color=darkred]
>
> goodluck
> geothermaljones
> st.paul,mn.
>
> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183237661.935897.194520@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> "slightly
> both
>
>
> larger
> (Shhh,
> low
> option
> every
>
>
>
>
>
>
> length,
> buried
> the
> the
> Vertical
>
> pound
> of
> keyboard.
>
>
>
> like.
> floor.
>
>
> refrigerant
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> for
>
>
> water
> Since
> up
> heat
>
>
> high
> Kelvin
> vacuum
>
> conditioning
> maintain.
>
> mechanically
> text -
>
>
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-07-01, 9:25 am |
| On 30 Jun, 20:15, Bruce Richmond <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Jun 29, 8:17 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> When you pump water to a higher level where does the energy go? It
> does not become water. I raises the water to a higher energy level by
> forcing it to flow counter to its natural direction. A heat pump does
> the same thing with heat. It uses mechanical energy to make heat flow
> from cool to warm, against its natural direction. The mechanical
> energy doesn't need to come from an electric motor. That just happens
> to be the most common way of providing the mechanical energy for a
> heat pump.
>
> Bruce
Quite right.
I posted something about a wind powered heat pump concept on alt.HVAC
a while ago but sadly some alleged engineers couldn't handle the novel
idea of using both ends of the heatpump simultaneously to assist
refrigeration and/or air/water heating.
| |
| Bruce Richmond 2007-07-01, 1:25 pm |
| On Jun 30, 6:40 pm, "geothermaljones" <geothermaljo...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> I give up...
>
> How can you draw a vacuum on pipes of this size length without a huge pump?
> Have you ever used a vacuum pump on a refrigeration system?
> These units are built like tanks, weigh a ton & have huge power to draw down
> very small (relatively) quantities of copper linesets, You plan to do it
> how?
Let me say up front that I am not a professional in this field, but I
have studied thermodynamics and know how heat engines and pumps work.
In the refrigeration system you are working with much higher pressure
differences than we are talking about here. Given P1/T1=P2/T2 with a
room temp of 73F and a tube temp of 37F to draw heat from the 55F
ground with the room at 14.7 psi the tube would be at 13.7 psi. If
you want to use a blower just blow the air out of the tube into the
room ;) It shouldn't take all that heavy duty a blower to deal with 1
psi of pressure. How much power will be needed will depend a lot on
how much actual flow is taking place.
> Key to swapping heat is based on a difference in temperature, the larger the
> better.
Delta T is part of the equation, but not all of it. The surface area
of the pipe is also a big factor. We established a 1 psi pressure
diferential to provide air at 18F deg colder than the ground. We
should be able to estimate the surface area needed from there. Going
higher on the pressure will require less surface area in the pipe but
will require more power to maintain the pressure.
> At what pressure in side the pipe will you be able to transfer 12,000 btuh
> of heat to any amount of 60dF air
> in order for it to deliver that ton of heat to the space at say 80dF?
Why heat the air to 80F? We only want the room to be at 73F. The
nice thing about the set up is that no temperture differential is
needed at the hot end. The heat doesn't need to pass through a heat
exchanger, it is just released directly into the room.
> Burying the pipe in Basalt will incur a massive expense.
> Even a conventional system will prove more cost effective in the long run.
> VFRZ with inverter drives will do even better.
There is no sand/soil on the island? The OP should be able to figure
out how much work/cost is involved to bury the pipe after calculating
the surface area needed.
> I've always been intrigued by Sterling engines, but haven't spent the time
> on learning the process...
> Dean Kamen has one in his home doesn't he?
> More as an inspirational ornament, than an actual tool.
Sorry, I don't know who Dean Kamen is.
Bruce
> goodluck
> geothermaljones
> st.paul,mn.
>
> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183237661.935897.194520@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
> "slightly
> both
>
>
> larger
> (Shhh,
> low
> option
> every
>
>
>
>
>
>
> length,
> buried
> the
> the
> Vertical
>
> pound
> of
> keyboard.
>
>
>
> like.
> floor.
>
>
> refrigerant
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> for
>
>
> water
> Since
> up
> heat
>
>
> high
> Kelvin
> vacuum
>
> conditioning
> maintain.
>
> mechanically
> text -
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-07-01, 1:25 pm |
| On 1 Jul, 19:04, Bruce Richmond <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Jun 30, 6:40 pm, "geothermaljones" <geothermaljo...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Why heat the air to 80F? We only want the room to be at 73F.
If you check an ordinary blow heater, the temp is much higher than the
required one because the air gets mixed with the cool air in the room
(cooled by the walls).
> The
> nice thing about the set up is that no temperture differential is
> needed at the hot end. The heat doesn't need to pass through a heat
> exchanger, it is just released directly into the room.
That's my point, all that's needed is a centrifugal sucker, no
waterpumps, heat exchangers, heatpumps, control system etc. The only
thing to wear out is the bearing on the motor and the on-off switch.
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-07-01, 1:25 pm |
| On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 11:00:30 -0700, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>On 1 Jul, 19:04, Bruce Richmond <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>If you check an ordinary blow heater, the temp is much higher than the
>required one because the air gets mixed with the cool air in the room
>(cooled by the walls).
>
>
>That's my point, all that's needed is a centrifugal sucker, no
>waterpumps, heat exchangers, heatpumps, control system etc. The only
>thing to wear out is the bearing on the motor and the on-off switch.
You must be fucking smart. You just invented free heating.
When the rest of the world finds out, BOY HOWDY are they gonig
to be impressed ! They never thought of it !
Carry on.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-07-01, 5:25 pm |
| On 1 Jul, 21:08, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 11:00:30 -0700, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> You must be fucking smart. You just invented free heating.
Not quite, but there's a chance I've invented something more energy
efficient (in many conditions) than a bar fire and much simpler and
reliable than anything using refrigerant.
Furthermore it's not patented, so anybody with diy skills could make
it, courtesy of me.
>
> When the rest of the world finds out, BOY HOWDY are they gonig
> to be impressed ! They never thought of it !
>
> Carry on.
>
> --
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo now available onlinehttp://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-07-01, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 13:18:02 -0700, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>On 1 Jul, 21:08, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
>Not quite, but there's a chance I've invented something more energy
>efficient (in many conditions) than a bar fire and much simpler and
>reliable than anything using refrigerant.
>Furthermore it's not patented, so anybody with diy skills could make
>it, courtesy of me.
Well, so much for any hope of you being a businessman ....
>
>
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| David Williams 2007-07-01, 5:25 pm |
| -> That's my point, all that's needed is a centrifugal sucker, no
-> waterpumps, heat exchangers, heatpumps, control system etc. The only
-> thing to wear out is the bearing on the motor and the on-off switch.
A resistive electric heater has even less to wear out.
dow
| |
| Bruce Richmond 2007-07-02, 3:25 am |
| On Jul 1, 6:38 pm, david.willi...@bayman.org (David XXXXXXXX) wrote:
> -> That's my point, all that's needed is a centrifugal sucker, no
> -> waterpumps, heat exchangers, heatpumps, control system etc. The only
> -> thing to wear out is the bearing on the motor and the on-off switch.
>
> A resistive electric heater has even less to wear out.
>
> dow
But it has a lower COP,
| |
| DIMwit 2007-07-03, 9:25 am |
| I want a heatsucker.
<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:l73g83dtt2o9reealp8h0htes1jol4kieq@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 13:18:02 -0700, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
> Well, so much for any hope of you being a businessman ....
>
>
>
>
> --
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
> http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-07-03, 8:25 pm |
| On 1 Jul, 23:22, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 13:18:02 -0700, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, so much for any hope of you being a businessman ....
Already my dosh with another invention, thanks, which is why I'm semi-
retired at 45.
You might not be able to grasp this but my interest now is to
A) pay out as little as possible to energy companies and in the
process hopefully:
B) come up with green energy stuff for the masses.
The thing is there are/were plenty of ideas out there but greedy
wankers wanted to make filthy lucre from it, so the ideas either never
made it to market at all or they got snapped up by other firms and
made too expensive to be an alternative.
If something is any good on the green energy scene it's far more
important to get it out there than for one little twat to *maybe* make
some lucre from it, so I don't mind at all if people copy such an idea
or even improve on it.
[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[snip]
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-07-03, 8:25 pm |
| On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:09:17 -0700, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>On 1 Jul, 23:22, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
>Already my dosh with another invention, thanks, which is why I'm semi-
>retired at 45.
>You might not be able to grasp this but my interest now is to
>A) pay out as little as possible to energy companies and in the
>process hopefully:
>B) come up with green energy stuff for the masses.
>
>The thing is there are/were plenty of ideas out there but greedy
>wankers wanted to make filthy lucre from it, so the ideas either never
>made it to market at all or they got snapped up by other firms and
>made too expensive to be an alternative.
Would this include your 'previous dosh' ?
>If something is any good on the green energy scene it's far more
>important to get it out there than for one little twat to *maybe* make
>some lucre from it, so I don't mind at all if people copy such an idea
>or even improve on it.
You don't mind ignoring the basic laws of thermodynamics
either, it seems.
Here's rule # 1 for you : There aint' no free lunch.
( unless you're a public school kid, maybe )
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| Joseph 2007-07-03, 8:25 pm |
|
<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message news:chpl835q94v891sc2agt4dr3p6ro95hvod@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:09:17 -0700, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
> Would this include your 'previous dosh' ?
>
>
> You don't mind ignoring the basic laws of thermodynamics
> either, it seems.
>
> Here's rule # 1 for you : There aint' no free lunch.
>
> ( unless you're a public school kid, maybe )
A public elementary school here has an eating program while school is out for the summer!
M-F Breakfast and lunch free to anyone under eighteen years of age.
>
>
> --
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
> http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-07-03, 9:25 pm |
| On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 17:39:48 -0700, "Joseph" <jrpitzner@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
>
> A public elementary school here has an eating program while school is out for the summer!
>
> M-F Breakfast and lunch free to anyone under eighteen years of age.
Say what ? ANYONE ???
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| Don Ocean 2007-07-04, 3:25 am |
| ..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 17:39:48 -0700, "Joseph" <jrpitzner@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Say what ? ANYONE ???
Forget it, Paul..Bus fare will cost you more then buying your own lunch!
;-p
>
>
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-07-04, 3:25 am |
| On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:28:41 -0500, Don Ocean <ocean@amerion.com>
wrote:
[color=darkred]
>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
>Forget it, Paul..Bus fare will cost you more then buying your own lunch!
> ;-p
>
Damn :-( And I could pass for 18 ! Really !
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-07-04, 8:25 pm |
| On 4 Jul, 03:15, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:09:17 -0700, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Would this include your 'previous dosh' ?
???
>
>
> You don't mind ignoring the basic laws of thermodynamics
> either, it seems.
>
> Here's rule # 1 for you : There aint' no free lunch.
Lets see you calculate the initial pressure required to raise air
temperature from 13C to reach 50C at atmospheric pressure, instead of
making your hot air by bitching.
>
> ( unless you're a public school kid, maybe )
Nope. I don't really take the people who haven't figured what magnetic
fields and gravity are made of half as seriously as they'd like
though, if you want to talk about physics and education.
>
> --
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo now available onlinehttp://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-07-04, 8:25 pm |
| On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:28:22 -0700, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>On 4 Jul, 03:15, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
>???
The one you semi-retired on. So you claim. Were you one of
the 'greedy wankers' then ?
>
>
>Lets see you calculate the initial pressure required to raise air
>temperature from 13C to reach 50C at atmospheric pressure, instead of
>making your hot air by bitching.
Let's see me not do your fucking homework for you.
>
>
Let's see you find out who you're talking to before you go
shooting off your ignorant newbie mouth.
[color=darkred]
>
>Nope. I don't really take the people who haven't figured what magnetic
>fields and gravity are made of half as seriously as they'd like
>though, if you want to talk about physics and education.
Fuck off, little XXXXX.
>
>
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| no spam 2007-07-05, 9:25 am |
| >> Here's rule # 1 for you : There aint' no free lunch.
>
> A public elementary school here has an eating program while school is
> out for the summer!
>
> M-F Breakfast and lunch free to anyone under eighteen years of age.
Call my lawyer, I'm suing!!! Age discrimination. Age discrimination. Age
discrimination.
| |
| no spam 2007-07-05, 9:25 am |
| >>> Here's rule # 1 for you : There aint' no free lunch.
>
> Let's see me not do your fucking homework for you.
Ah, to see a find mind working the art of debate. I wonder if google could
find that quote about vulgar language being the sign of a small intellect. .
..have to check on that. .
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2007-07-05, 1:25 pm |
| On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:16:20 GMT, "no spam" <no@spam.net> wrote:
>
>Ah, to see a find mind working the art of debate. I wonder if google could
>find that quote about vulgar language being the sign of a small intellect. .
>.have to check on that. .
>
You should have fucking done that before posting, XXXXXXX.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| markzoom@digiverse.net 2007-07-06, 5:25 pm |
| On 5 Jul, 02:46, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:28:22 -0700, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The one you semi-retired on. So you claim. Were you one of
> the 'greedy wankers' then ?
Eeer, no, the previous product I invented was nothing to with
environmental issues or lowering the world's co2 emissions.
>
>
>
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>
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> Let's see me not do your fucking homework for you.
I already have, but clearly you're all mouth and no brains.
>
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> Let's see you find out who you're talking to before you go
> shooting off your ignorant newbie mouth.
??? Who gives a shit, only a real twathead would object to ideas being
made freely available to anyone. Do you work for some energy company,
wankface? Is your miserable little job in danger if people save
energy.
>
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> Fuck off, little XXXXX.
Right little pottymouth aren't you? Bet you don't know what a
magnetic field is made of either.
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