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turbines - 12v versus 24v
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| One thing that's always puzzled me about wind turbines is that
manufacturers sell 24volt models, some even sell 48volt models, and
yet the world is full of 12v batteries. I have 12v batteries and a 12v
wind turbine and I am currently planning an upgrade to a bigger
turbine. Is there any good reason why I should consider using a 24v
turbine as opposed to a 12v one? Would a 24v turbine start charging my
12v batteries at lower wind speeds? Thanks for any advice.
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-04, 9:25 am |
| Two 12v batteries in series is 24 volts. The higher the voltage, the smaller
the wire requirements and possible voltage loss. It's hard to find a 5kw
inverter that will take a 12v input, because of the wire size requirements.
3kw is pushing it. Plus there is the lead length coming in from the turbine,
you don't want to lose wattage as resistance created heat. I have a 12v
system, with 1260 ah battery pack, and 3kw inverter. Any larger, and I'll
switch out to 24vdc.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net> wrote in message
news:468ba935$0$5854$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
> One thing that's always puzzled me about wind turbines is that
> manufacturers sell 24volt models, some even sell 48volt models, and yet
> the world is full of 12v batteries. I have 12v batteries and a 12v wind
> turbine and I am currently planning an upgrade to a bigger turbine. Is
> there any good reason why I should consider using a 24v turbine as opposed
> to a 12v one? Would a 24v turbine start charging my 12v batteries at lower
> wind speeds? Thanks for any advice.
>
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-07-04, 1:25 pm |
| On Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:03:55 +0100, "tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net>
wrote:
>One thing that's always puzzled me about wind turbines is that
>manufacturers sell 24volt models, some even sell 48volt models, and
>yet the world is full of 12v batteries. I have 12v batteries and a 12v
>wind turbine and I am currently planning an upgrade to a bigger
>turbine. Is there any good reason why I should consider using a 24v
>turbine as opposed to a 12v one? Would a 24v turbine start charging my
>12v batteries at lower wind speeds? Thanks for any advice.
>
This model http://www.windenergy.com/whisper_200.htm can be used on
12-48V systems. Should you expand your system in the future the
turbine voltage is easily changed. When shopping for turbines don't
forget to consider the cost of larger wire. Recommendations for the
above turbine on page 6 here
http://www.windenergy.com/documents..._Controller.pdf
Also, larger turbines usually require 3 wires versus 2 for smaller
models.
Wayne
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"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:468b78d6_3@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> Two 12v batteries in series is 24 volts. The higher the voltage, the
> smaller the wire requirements and possible voltage loss.
I don't have to worry about wire, the turbine I have is already wired
with 60amp red and black cable and at this moment I don't give a toss
about inverters. I live in a low wind area, and I've noticed my
turbine's cut-in wind speed seems quite high so a lot of blade
spinning goes to waste. This is why I was wondering should I change to
a 24volt turbine...
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-04, 5:25 pm |
|
tg wrote:
> "Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote
>
>
> I don't have to worry about wire, the turbine I have is already wired
> with 60amp red and black cable and at this moment I don't give a toss
> about inverters. I live in a low wind area, and I've noticed my
> turbine's cut-in wind speed seems quite high so a lot of blade
> spinning goes to waste. This is why I was wondering should I change to
> a 24volt turbine...
A 24V turbine would produce too high a voltage when the there's a decent wind.
Sounds to me like you need a charge controller. Or a turbine with a lower cut-in
speed.
Graham
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-04, 8:25 pm |
| A 24 volt turbine gets connected to a 24 volt pack, a 12 volt turbine
connects to a 12 volt pack. A 24 volt turbine can connect to a 12 volt pack
with a MPPT controller. You don't need to switch, it won't have the effect
you are looking for.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net> wrote in message
news:468bb7bc$0$5866$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
> news:468b78d6_3@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
> I don't have to worry about wire, the turbine I have is already wired
> with 60amp red and black cable and at this moment I don't give a toss
> about inverters. I live in a low wind area, and I've noticed my
> turbine's cut-in wind speed seems quite high so a lot of blade
> spinning goes to waste. This is why I was wondering should I change to
> a 24volt turbine...
>
>
>
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"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468BF78B.AE32CF19@hotmail.com...
>
>
> tg wrote:
>
>
> A 24V turbine would produce too high a voltage when the there's a
> decent wind.
how do you know that?
do you have a wind turbine? If you do then you would know the battery
acts as a brake and slows the turbine down, even in a decent wind. I
have a wind turbine and I constantly monitor it with a big voltmeter
mounted on my desk. If I connect my turbine to a really flat 12v
battery (say putting out only 7 volts) then even in a strong wind my
turbine never puts out more than 7v, or whatever the battery voltage
is. As the battery drinks on the power from the turbine the voltage
slowly rises, but the output voltage from the turbine never goes
higher than the battery it's connected to. Are your experiences with
your own wind turbine different?
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"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:468c0959$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>A 24 volt turbine gets connected to a 24 volt pack, a 12 volt turbine
>connects to a 12 volt pack.
not necessarily so from what I've read on the internet...
> A 24 volt turbine can connect to a 12 volt pack with a MPPT
> controller.
thanks for this info. £466.00 Ouch. I must say these units do look
rather clever though.
> You don't need to switch, it won't have the effect you are looking
> for.
I'll get back to you on that.
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-05, 9:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> "Eeyore" wrote
>
> how do you know that?
From the published data perhaps ?
> do you have a wind turbine?
I don't have one myself since urban properties are not a sensible location for
one but I've studied them from a technical perspective.
> If you do then you would know the battery
> acts as a brake and slows the turbine down, even in a decent wind. I
> have a wind turbine and I constantly monitor it with a big voltmeter
> mounted on my desk. If I connect my turbine to a really flat 12v
> battery (say putting out only 7 volts) then even in a strong wind my
> turbine never puts out more than 7v, or whatever the battery voltage
> is. As the battery drinks on the power from the turbine the voltage
> slowly rises, but the output voltage from the turbine never goes
> higher than the battery it's connected to. Are your experiences with
> your own wind turbine different?
Yes, a battery will 'slow down' a turbine, that's because it's absorbing the
energy.
You should *never* let a 12V battery drop to 7V - treating one like that will
wreck it in no time at all. The ideal 'on charge' voltage for a 12V battery is ~
13.8V actually.
There is a limit to how much you can allow a battery to do this 'braking' if you
don't want to trash it with overcharging too. To get decent life you should be
using a charge controller. And a 24V turbine will indeed want to put out 24V or
so when there's a light load (e.g the battery's fully charged and there's little
other load on the circuit). The only sensible way to deal with all this is
indeed with active electronics.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-05, 9:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> "Steve Spence" wrote
>
>
> not necessarily so from what I've read on the internet...
That only proves how much bad advice is out there.
Graham
| |
|
| On Jul 4, 10:03 am, "tg" <t...@nospamevereverever.net> wrote:
> One thing that's always puzzled me about wind turbines is that
> manufacturers sell 24volt models, some even sell 48volt models, and
> yet the world is full of 12v batteries.
Point in fact, I'd say the majority of renewable energy system-
specific batteries are less than 12V; 6, 4, 2, etc. Folks put
batteries in series to reach the desired system voltage.
> I have 12v batteries and a 12v
> wind turbine and I am currently planning an upgrade to a bigger
> turbine. Is there any good reason why I should consider using a 24v
> turbine as opposed to a 12v one?
Reducing wire costs / line losses. The difference in wire gauge
between 12 and 24v systems in wind turbines is huge, because the
distances are ideally long.
> Would a 24v turbine start charging my
> 12v batteries at lower wind speeds? Thanks for any advice.
Potentially, a 24v turbine could charge a 12v system that needed
charging, but there might be problems with the charge controller
attached to the turbine. Low voltage and diversion circuits would be
out of whack and either damage or malfunction might result...
But no, the best solution to your low wind problem is to stick an
appropriate voltage turbine as high as you can (60-80ft if possible),
and with appropriate size wire.
DJ
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"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468CD5FE.6BF00964@hotmail.com...
>
>
> tg wrote:
>
>
> That only proves how much bad advice is out there.
coming from you for a start.
| |
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"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468CD5D4.A0DE33E4@hotmail.com...
>
> I don't have one myself since urban properties are not a sensible
> location for
> one but I've studied them from a technical perspective.
your study of them from a technical perspective amounts to a crock of
shite. Unless you've actually owned a turbine and studied the real
thing in the real world then I'm sorry to say you actually know jack
shit about turbines. I too have a background of electrical knowledge -
I even made a living fixing electrical things for a while - but it
wasn't until I owned a turbine and watched it and studied it did I
realise I knew fuck all about them, even thought I thought I did. You
smart-arse armchchair theorists are all the same.
And you also know jack shit about batteries. The whole point of a deep
cycle battery is that it can be deep discharged and then recharged.
They're designed that way. Get some experience of things before you
give out any more 'advice'.
| |
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"DJ" <dj_macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183637614.428029.95410@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 4, 10:03 am, "tg" <t...@nospamevereverever.net> wrote:
>
> Potentially, a 24v turbine could charge a 12v system that needed
> charging, but there might be problems with the charge controller
> attached to the turbine. Low voltage and diversion circuits would be
> out of whack and either damage or malfunction might result...
I see, so you actually own a turbine do you? You've seen this damage
to your own charge controller have you?
> But no, the best solution to your low wind problem is to stick an
> appropriate voltage turbine as high as you can (60-80ft if
> possible),
> and with appropriate size wire.
why?
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-05, 9:25 am |
|
"tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net> wrote in message
news:468ce5e1$0$5868$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:468CD5D4.A0DE33E4@hotmail.com...
>
> your study of them from a technical perspective amounts to a crock of
> shite. Unless you've actually owned a turbine and studied the real
> thing in the real world then I'm sorry to say you actually know jack
> shit about turbines. I too have a background of electrical knowledge -
> I even made a living fixing electrical things for a while - but it
> wasn't until I owned a turbine and watched it and studied it did I
> realise I knew fuck all about them, even thought I thought I did. You
> smart-arse armchchair theorists are all the same.
> And you also know jack shit about batteries. The whole point of a deep
> cycle battery is that it can be deep discharged and then recharged.
> They're designed that way. Get some experience of things before you
> give out any more 'advice'.
>
taking a deep cycle 12v below 10 volts will destroy them after a bit.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-05, 9:25 am |
|
"tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net> wrote in message
news:468ce6c0$0$15854$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "DJ" <dj_macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1183637614.428029.95410@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> I see, so you actually own a turbine do you? You've seen this damage to
> your own charge controller have you?
>
>
> why?
That should be obvious.
DJ and I both own wind turbines and live off-grid. You have two ears, and
one mouth. Do twice as much listening as you do yapping.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-05, 9:25 am |
|
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468CD5FE.6BF00964@hotmail.com...
>
>
> tg wrote:
>
>
> That only proves how much bad advice is out there.
>
> Graham
>
Agreed. there's book knowledge, there's hands on knowledge, and then there's
both. Both is best, then you understand why you get the results you do, and
don't chalk it up to magic.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
| |
|
| Yo Steve.... lets say I have a 12V battery bank (two T105s), and some
PV panels and a MPPT controller, AND a wind turbine & controller. Lets
say the sun comes up before the wind starts. MPPT controller is
putting out 13.8V. Everybody is happy. Then the wind picks up. Wind
controller thinks... 'hey... battery has 13.8 volts... I better hump
out 14.4V to charge that booger', which confuses the computer in the
MPPT controller and it drops out and everybody is confused. So how do
I use a generator, a wind turbine and PV panels to keep my battery
bank charged? Have some sort of master controller that connects them
one at a time? Bummer if you have sun and wind at the same time. Need
3 big diodes? 3 big .1 ohm resistors?
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-05, 1:25 pm |
|
BobG wrote:
> Yo Steve.... lets say I have a 12V battery bank (two T105s), and some
> PV panels and a MPPT controller, AND a wind turbine & controller. Lets
> say the sun comes up before the wind starts. MPPT controller is
> putting out 13.8V. Everybody is happy. Then the wind picks up. Wind
> controller thinks... 'hey... battery has 13.8 volts... I better hump
> out 14.4V to charge that booger', which confuses the computer in the
> MPPT controller and it drops out and everybody is confused. So how do
> I use a generator, a wind turbine and PV panels to keep my battery
> bank charged? Have some sort of master controller that connects them
> one at a time? Bummer if you have sun and wind at the same time. Need
> 3 big diodes? 3 big .1 ohm resistors?
It seems that the charge controllers need to get cleverer.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-05, 1:25 pm |
|
tg wrote:
> "Eeyore" wrote
>
>
> your study of them from a technical perspective amounts to a crock of
> shite.
That's the kind of crap I'd expect from a ignorant dickhead who allows his 12V
battery to deep discharge to 7V as if that's normal.
You need to learn some fundamental basics about battery characteristics and
maintenance kiddy !
Why do you think designs this stuff in the first place ? Not a bunch of
know-nothing garden shed inventor idiots like yourself for sure.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-05, 1:25 pm |
|
tg wrote:
> And you also know jack shit about batteries.
Actually, you're the one who knows nothing about batteries.
> The whole point of a deep cycle battery is that it can be deep discharged and
> then recharged.
> They're designed that way.
No. You're confused about what deep discharge means. It certainly doesn't mean
7V.
The diference betwen normal and deep cycle batteries is the amount of capacity
that they're happy to provide day in, day out on a regular basis and still
maintain a long working life. See DoD (depth of discharge).
Take any 12V lead acid battery regularly to 7V and you'll fuck it.
> no they aren't.Get some experience of things before you
> give out any more 'advice'.
I don't think anyone's going to be coming to you for advice after your stupid
little outburst showing how little you know.
Graham
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2007-07-05, 1:25 pm |
| BobG wrote:
> Yo Steve.... lets say I have a 12V battery bank (two T105s), and some
> PV panels and a MPPT controller, AND a wind turbine & controller. Lets
> say the sun comes up before the wind starts. MPPT controller is
> putting out 13.8V. Everybody is happy. Then the wind picks up. Wind
> controller thinks... 'hey... battery has 13.8 volts... I better hump
> out 14.4V to charge that booger', which confuses the computer in the
> MPPT controller and it drops out and everybody is confused.
I thought that the voltage of the battery dominates everything.
Your MPPT controller can't put out 13.8V if the battery is at 12.5V.
If your battery if fully charged, does it matter what any of the
charge controllers do? (Apart from diversion loads.)
Anthony
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-07-05, 5:25 pm |
| On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:44:31 -0700, BobG <bobgardner@aol.com> wrote:
>Yo Steve.... lets say I have a 12V battery bank (two T105s), and some
>PV panels and a MPPT controller, AND a wind turbine & controller. Lets
>say the sun comes up before the wind starts. MPPT controller is
>putting out 13.8V. Everybody is happy. Then the wind picks up. Wind
>controller thinks... 'hey... battery has 13.8 volts... I better hump
>out 14.4V to charge that booger', which confuses the computer in the
>MPPT controller and it drops out and everybody is confused. So how do
>I use a generator, a wind turbine and PV panels to keep my battery
>bank charged? Have some sort of master controller that connects them
>one at a time? Bummer if you have sun and wind at the same time. Need
>3 big diodes? 3 big .1 ohm resistors?
I'm not sure what you mean by "confused".
I have a 48V system -- wind/solar. The wind turbine puts out more than
does the solar panels (1.98kW PV; 7.5-8kW peak wind turbine).
The advice I received (from the wind turbine engineer) was to set the MPPT
PV controller just below the cutoff of the wind controller.
The MX60 is set to 56V.
The wind controller cuts out at 56.4V.
Things seem to work fine.
When the wind controller is putting out 56-56.4V, the batteries are usually
pretty well charged.
--ron
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|
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"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468D240C.63C2A56F@hotmail.com...
>
> I don't think anyone's going to be coming to you for advice after
> your stupid
> little outburst showing how little you know.
the advice I give is based on what I see and what I do, what works for
me and what doesn't. It's based on things I've actually done and
tried. You goddam fucking armchair theorists are all the same and
you're ten a penny all over the newsgroups, having read a few articles
you think you know it all, stupid cunt.. I bet you've never picked up
a screwdriver in your life. You try to give me advice on wind turbines
and you've never installed and run your own turbine. I have. I've run
my own turbine for a year, watching the behaviour of the meter needles
when the wind is blowing, learning what I could hands on. And what I
learnt surprised me, even after years of experience repairing
electrical items for a living.
You're a disgrace. Fuck off.
| |
| no spam 2007-07-05, 5:25 pm |
| >> I don't think anyone's going to be coming to you for advice after
>
> the advice I give is based on what I see and what I do, what works for
> me and what doesn't. It's based on things I've actually done and
> tried. You goddam fucking armchair theorists are all the same and
> you're ten a penny all over the newsgroups, having read a few articles
> you think you know it all, stupid cunt.. I bet you've never picked up
> a screwdriver in your life. You try to give me advice on wind turbines
> and you've never installed and run your own turbine. I have. I've run
> my own turbine for a year, watching the behaviour of the meter needles
> when the wind is blowing, learning what I could hands on. And what I
> learnt surprised me, even after years of experience repairing
> electrical items for a living.
> You're a disgrace. Fuck off.
All of one long year and you know it all. In another year you'll be in line
for that Nobel prize. Come back in a year and tell us how many batteries
you have that will still take and hold a full charge.
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-07-05, 5:25 pm |
| On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:40:18 +0100, "tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net>
wrote:
>
>"DJ" <dj_macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1183637614.428029.95410@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
[color=darkred]
>
>why?
For starters, a 24V-only turbine is likely to have a matching
rectifier-dump load-regulator that can't be set below about 24V. Which
means that if you connect it to a 12V battery, the turbine will
(inefficiently) keep right on charging until the batteries reach 24V
or expire. You could add a 12V regulator and dump load in series but
why bother? Check the power curves - there's isn't enough energy in
the below-cut-in speed range worth harvesting with a bodge. If you
have any info that says different then please post it. And before you
repeat that claim that those trying to help you don't have any
experience, check here http://www.leboise.com/Wind.html,
http://www.green-trust.org/blogarch...1_archive.html,
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/12win...thumbnails.htm.
Wayne
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-07-05, 5:25 pm |
| On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:44:31 -0700, BobG <bobgardner@aol.com> wrote:
>Yo Steve.... lets say I have a 12V battery bank (two T105s), and some
>PV panels and a MPPT controller, AND a wind turbine & controller. Lets
>say the sun comes up before the wind starts. MPPT controller is
>putting out 13.8V. Everybody is happy. Then the wind picks up. Wind
>controller thinks... 'hey... battery has 13.8 volts... I better hump
>out 14.4V to charge that booger', which confuses the computer in the
>MPPT controller and it drops out and everybody is confused. So how do
>I use a generator, a wind turbine and PV panels to keep my battery
>bank charged? Have some sort of master controller that connects them
>one at a time? Bummer if you have sun and wind at the same time. Need
>3 big diodes? 3 big .1 ohm resistors?
Outback says their standard MX60 can be used with some specific
turbines, and they've talked about making a dedicated turbine version.
Either way, solar and wind input couldn't be combined, and even
separate controllers can conflict. I get around that problem by
setting the turbine controller voltage a little higher than the MX60
PV controller. It's an imperfect solution though. The turbine
controller is single-stage, so when the batteries are full and the
wind is still blowing, battery voltage is higher than I'd like.
Wayne
| |
|
|
"no spam" <no@spam.net> wrote in message
news:Jecji.36239$G23.7349@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
>
> All of one long year and you know it all.
no, but I certainly know more than someone who's never owned and run
their own turbine - namely you.
| |
|
|
<wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:m5lq83h92qpijchbr2gvaq6vagugbenu7r@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:40:18 +0100, "tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net>
> wrote:
>
> For starters, a 24V-only turbine is likely to have a matching
> rectifier-dump load-regulator that can't be set below about 24V.
> Which
> means that if you connect it to a 12V battery, the turbine will
> (inefficiently) keep right on charging until the batteries reach 24V
> or expire. You could add a 12V regulator and dump load in series but
> why bother? Check the power curves - there's isn't enough energy in
> the below-cut-in speed range worth harvesting with a bodge. If you
> have any info that says different then please post it. And before
> you
> repeat that claim that those trying to help you don't have any
> experience, check here http://www.leboise.com/Wind.html,
> http://www.green-trust.org/blogarch...1_archive.html,
> http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/12win...thumbnails.htm.
>
> Wayne
I do use a 12v regulator now. It's there to safeguard the batteries
being charged and yes it does dump power to a big resistor when the
batteries are full. In using a 12v turbine though I've discovered that
there's actually nothing '12 volt' about it. This is where the
armchair theorist always fall flat on their face. Anyone who thinks a
12v turbine puts out 12v when it's spinning doesn't know what they're
talking about. If I disconnect my turbine and test the voltage while
it's spinning fast I get a reading of up to 70 volts DC. This 12v
malarky is just pie in the sky, I've seen it with my own eyes. If I
connect my turbine to a really flat 12v battery the turbine voltage
will only rise to the 'actual' voltage of the battery and during the
charge process it won't go any higher.With my current 12v turbine
there is a hell of a lot of wasted blade spinning, with no charging
until reaches quite a fast speed. Thus a turbine that reaches the
battery voltage sooner (eg a 24v) should be more efficient. I suppose
I'll just have to try and report back, maybe educate the poor saddos
around here that have never been near a wind turbine ha ha.
btw wayne, what kind of turbine are you using?
| |
| Steve Cothran 2007-07-05, 8:25 pm |
| On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:04:23 +0100, "tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net>
wrote:
<snip tirade>
>You're a disgrace. Fuck off.
>
Several brands of decaf coffee taste just like the real thing. Gee
whiz.
| |
|
|
"Steve Cothran" <fake@fake.com> wrote in message
news:na6r83lsr61krg8k29h8u4995ju9ghco4t@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:04:23 +0100, "tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net>
> wrote:
>
> <snip tirade>
>
>
> Several brands of decaf coffee taste just like the real thing. Gee
> whiz.
I haven't got a fucking clue what your talking about.
| |
|
| On Jul 5, 8:40 am, "tg" <t...@nospamevereverever.net> wrote:
> "DJ" <dj_macint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183637614.428029.95410@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> I see, so you actually own a turbine do you?
Yes, point in fact. A 2.8kw 'Long Case Jake' I reconditioned myself.
In addition to that, my company installs wind turbines commercially.
Guess who runs the company and installs all the turbines? ;-).
> You've seen this damage
> to your own charge controller have you?
Actually, point in fact, no. I've never done anything that
illogical ;-). I *do* know you can hook up a 24v SWWP H-80 (not a
H-200) and wire it into a 12v bank. And I know it will perform *WORSE*
than that same turbine later rewired for 12v. I rewired it for a
client that ordered the wrong one ;-).
[color=darkred]
> why?
The single biggest problem folks have with wind turbines is not
getting them into laminar airstreams. The higher, the better. The rule
of thumb is a minimum of 40 feet over anything within 100 feet. In
alot of jurisdictions, 100 foot towers are right about when aircraft
avoidance lighting is required, so generally they're kept to that or
lower.
DJ
| |
|
| On Jul 5, 11:44 am, BobG <bobgard...@aol.com> wrote:
> Yo Steve.... lets say I have a 12V battery bank (two T105s), and some
> PV panels and a MPPT controller, AND a wind turbine & controller. Lets
> say the sun comes up before the wind starts. MPPT controller is
> putting out 13.8V. Everybody is happy. Then the wind picks up. Wind
> controller thinks... 'hey... battery has 13.8 volts... I better hump
> out 14.4V to charge that booger', which confuses the computer in the
> MPPT controller and it drops out and everybody is confused. So how do
> I use a generator, a wind turbine and PV panels to keep my battery
> bank charged? Have some sort of master controller that connects them
> one at a time? Bummer if you have sun and wind at the same time. Need
> 3 big diodes? 3 big .1 ohm resistors?
Wind turbine controllers are "dumb", and until Midnite Solar comes out
with their wind version of the "MX-60 MARKII", no MPPT. They don't
think, they only put out what they get in.
So, set the wind controller to divert at 14.5-14.6v so as not to
interfer with the PV. Set the PV MPPT to max charge to 14.4.
True enough, there might be some flickering of the MPPT if it's windy,
sunny, and your batteries are fully charged, but, then, you're full up
anyway so it hardly matters...
Again, set the generator charging (through an inverter?) to 14.4. That
won't interfere with the PV, and won't engage the diversion of the
wind charger.
But if you have a wind turbine, AND a decent sized PV array, and only
TWO L-16s... time to get some more batteries amigo!
DJ
| |
|
| On Jul 5, 7:28 pm, "tg" <t...@nospamevereverever.net> wrote:
> <wmbjkREM...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:m5lq83h92qpijchbr2gvaq6vagugbenu7r@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I do use a 12v regulator now. It's there to safeguard the batteries
> being charged and yes it does dump power to a big resistor when the
> batteries are full. In using a 12v turbine though I've discovered that
> there's actually nothing '12 volt' about it. This is where the
> armchair theorist always fall flat on their face. Anyone who thinks a
> 12v turbine puts out 12v when it's spinning doesn't know what they're
> talking about. If I disconnect my turbine and test the voltage while
> it's spinning fast I get a reading of up to 70 volts DC. This 12v
> malarky is just pie in the sky, I've seen it with my own eyes.
So, dude, name names. What turbine? Point in fact, very few 12, 24, or
48v turbines put out DC voltage at all. Most put out "three phase wild
AC" which is rectified to DC at the battery charge controller.
> If I
> connect my turbine to a really flat 12v battery the turbine voltage
> will only rise to the 'actual' voltage of the battery and during the
> charge process it won't go any higher.
Might want to think about that one a bit ;-). It's like saying 'when I
fill my pool with a garden hose, it only fills to the level of the
pool' ;-).
> With my current 12v turbine
> there is a hell of a lot of wasted blade spinning, with no charging
> until reaches quite a fast speed.
Yes. And that's why, as somebody once told me, they don't call them
breeze-mills ;-).
> Thus a turbine that reaches the
> battery voltage sooner (eg a 24v) should be more efficient. I suppose
> I'll just have to try and report back, maybe educate the poor saddos
> around here that have never been near a wind turbine ha ha.
> btw wayne, what kind of turbine are you using?
Dude, been there, done that, saw it on that 1kw I rewired a few years
ago. It put out ALOT more juice once it was wired to put out actual
12V. Don't bother, there's no short cut.
DJ
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-07-05, 8:25 pm |
| On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:28:30 +0100, "tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net>
wrote:
>
><wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:m5lq83h92qpijchbr2gvaq6vagugbenu7r@4ax.com...
>
>I do use a 12v regulator now. It's there to safeguard the batteries
>being charged and yes it does dump power to a big resistor when the
>batteries are full. In using a 12v turbine though I've discovered that
>there's actually nothing '12 volt' about it. This is where the
>armchair theorist always fall flat on their face. Anyone who thinks a
>12v turbine puts out 12v when it's spinning doesn't know what they're
>talking about. If I disconnect my turbine and test the voltage while
>it's spinning fast I get a reading of up to 70 volts DC.
Steve and DJ and I all understand that, but it doesn't help your case
in the slightest.
>This 12v
>malarky is just pie in the sky, I've seen it with my own eyes. If I
>connect my turbine to a really flat 12v battery the turbine voltage
>will only rise to the 'actual' voltage of the battery and during the
>charge process it won't go any higher.With my current 12v turbine
>there is a hell of a lot of wasted blade spinning, with no charging
>until reaches quite a fast speed. Thus a turbine that reaches the
>battery voltage sooner (eg a 24v) should be more efficient.
No.
> I suppose
>I'll just have to try and report back, maybe educate the poor saddos
>around here that have never been near a wind turbine ha ha.
>btw wayne, what kind of turbine are you using?
I'm done wasting time with you. Come back when you're ready to listen.
Wayne
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-07-06, 3:25 am |
| On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 17:38:23 -0700, DJ <dj_macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The single biggest problem folks have with wind turbines is not
>getting them into laminar airstreams. The higher, the better. The rule
>of thumb is a minimum of 40 feet over anything within 100 feet. In
>alot of jurisdictions, 100 foot towers are right about when aircraft
>avoidance lighting is required, so generally they're kept to that or
>lower.
What jurisdictions would require aircraft anti-collision lighting for a
100' tower?
In the US, it *might* be required if you are close to an airport.
--ron
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 3:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> If I disconnect my turbine and test the voltage while
> it's spinning fast I get a reading of up to 70 volts DC.
Meaningless without knowing the source impedance.
You're the classic example of 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 3:25 am |
|
DJ wrote:
> "tg" <t...@nospamevereverever.net> wrote:
>
> So, dude, name names. What turbine? Point in fact, very few 12, 24, or
> 48v turbines put out DC voltage at all. Most put out "three phase wild
> AC" which is rectified to DC at the battery charge controller.
Yup, just like a car alternator.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 3:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> "Eeyore" wrote
>
> the advice I give is based on what I see and what I do, what works for
> me and what doesn't. It's based on things I've actually done and
> tried.
Discharge a lead-acid battery regularly to 7V and it won't last very long.
Fact.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 3:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> I bet you've never picked up a screwdriver in your life.
Well you'd certainly be wrong about that !
> You try to give me advice on wind turbines
> and you've never installed and run your own turbine. I have. I've run
> my own turbine for a year, watching the behaviour of the meter needles
> when the wind is blowing, learning what I could hands on. And what I
> learnt surprised me, even after years of experience repairing
> electrical items for a living.
> You're a disgrace.
You're one od those idiots who thinks that the science doesn't matter and it's
trumped by 'garden shed thinking'. That's far more disgraceful than anything I
know. Ignorance will get you nowhere ( except some very prematurely dead
batteries).
> Fuck off.
Nice way to respond to ppl who are trying to teach you something.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 3:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> "no spam" <no@spam.net> wrote
>
> no, but I certainly know more than someone who's never owned and run
> their own turbine - namely you.
You know 3/10 ths of NOTHING.
Graham
| |
|
|
<wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:qm4r83pdqitg63pkn99eo7p4phagmbgi5c@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:28:30 +0100, "tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net>
> wrote:
>
> I'm done wasting time with you. Come back when you're ready to
> listen.
and there we have it, another armchair theorist who's never been near
a wind turbine.
| |
|
|
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468DCC3E.401F572E@hotmail.com...
>
> You're one od those idiots who thinks that the science doesn't
> matter and it's
> trumped by 'garden shed thinking'. That's far more disgraceful than
> anything I
> know. Ignorance will get you nowhere ( except some very prematurely
> dead
> batteries).
you're one of those idiots who's read a couple of paragraphs on a web
page and thinks he knows it all - you even have the gall to pretend
you can advise others when you've never had, installed or run your own
turbine. You base your 'advice' on the imaginations of what you think
would happen but let me assure you that it's not until you run and
experiment with a turbine do you realise they're full of surprises.
They behave in ways you never expected - ways that a bookreader or
science student would never know, despite a pretentious conviction
that they do.
| |
|
|
"DJ" <dj_macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183683272.743028.172610@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> So, dude, name names. What turbine? Point in fact, very few 12, 24,
> or
> 48v turbines put out DC voltage at all. Most put out "three phase
> wild
> AC" which is rectified to DC at the battery charge controller.
I've been running an LVM Aero4gen-F 12v and I'm currently awaiting
planning permission to upgrade to an Aero6gen. LVM are bringing out a
new 500W turbine shortly but alas I'm restricted in my installation
and I have no-where to properly install a 500W. I'm dissapointed with
the Aero4gen, there's a lot of wasted blade spinning with no output to
the batteries.
>
> Dude, been there, done that, saw it on that 1kw I rewired a few
> years
> ago. It put out ALOT more juice once it was wired to put out actual
> 12V. Don't bother, there's no short cut.
we'll see. I'm not expecting more magical power from anywhere but I
want to capture more power from the lower wind speeds. I think I'm
gonna do it anyway and maybe I'll report back, maybe not. You never
know what you'll get until you try it, contrary to the pathetic advice
from armchair theorists. If it turns out to be a failed experiment I
can always convert the turbine back to a 12v by replacing the coil
windings inside.
| |
|
|
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468DCC68.6BFCF80B@hotmail.com...
>
> You know 3/10 ths of NOTHING.
oh my that's rich, coming from a guy who's never been near a turbine.
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 9:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
>
>
> and there we have it, another armchair theorist who's never been near
> a wind turbine.
Believe it or not, you don't need to have used one to understand how they work.
They're just electrical generators like any other type.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 9:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> disgraceful than
> prematurely
>
> you're one of those idiots who's read a couple of paragraphs on a web
> page and thinks he knows it all
No.
In fact I've probably spent more time researching 'alternative energy' in quite
some depth than you ever have.
You seem to be proud of your ignorance of the underlying science. Let's see how
proud you are when your expensive deep-cycle batteries give up the ghost because
you mis-treated them.
Electrical engineers have understood how lead acid batteries work for over a
century yet you seem to think YOU know better !
You're a classic example of the danger of 'dumbing down' in education.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 9:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> I'm dissapointed with the Aero4gen, there's a lot of wasted blade spinning
> with no output to
> the batteries.
Probably, given your comments here, because you haven't a damn clue how to use
it properly.
LMAO @ 'blade spinning'. You'r so clueless it's almost untrue.
Graham
| |
| Eeyore 2007-07-06, 9:25 am |
|
tg wrote:
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
> oh my that's rich, coming from a guy who's never been near a turbine.
A wind turbine is simply a wind-driven machine that generates electricity. It's
fundamentally no different from any other similar machine whatever the power
source is.
There's no *MAGIC* about it because the power comes from the wind. It obeys the
same electrical laws and equations as any other piece of electrical machinery.
Your idea that *YOU KNOW BETTER* because you have one is based on nothing of
substance. It's just a boring old generator/alternator. There's nothing special
about it at all. In fact you could learn a lot from studying automotive
electrical circuits. They share a lot in common.
Graham
| |
| daestrom 2007-07-06, 9:25 am |
|
"tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net> wrote in message
news:468ce5e1$0$5868$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:468CD5D4.A0DE33E4@hotmail.com...
>
> your study of them from a technical perspective amounts to a crock of
> shite. Unless you've actually owned a turbine and studied the real
> thing in the real world then I'm sorry to say you actually know jack
> shit about turbines. I too have a background of electrical knowledge -
> I even made a living fixing electrical things for a while - but it
> wasn't until I owned a turbine and watched it and studied it did I
> realise I knew fuck all about them, even thought I thought I did. You
> smart-arse armchchair theorists are all the same.
> And you also know jack shit about batteries. The whole point of a deep
> cycle battery is that it can be deep discharged and then recharged.
> They're designed that way. Get some experience of things before you
> give out any more 'advice'.
>
>
So speaketh the backyard mechanic. Ever heard the phrase, 'jack of all
trades, but master of none'?
A 'deep cycle' battery is *not* designed to be taken down to 7 volts
repeatedly. By 'deep cycle', the manufacturer means you can discharge it
close to 100% repeatedly and still get a long-life out of it (if you do some
other things to take care of it properly). But 7 volts on a 12 volt battery
is way beyond the manufacturer's 100% discharge limit.
If you study lead-acid batteries for a while, you'll learn that 100%
discharge is *not* 0 volts, nor even 7 volts. Yes, when you have your
turbine connected to the battery, the battery will limit the output voltage
until it charges up. The turbine simply charges a nice high current into
the battery until the battery re-charges some. But without any controls on
the system, a 24V rated turbine could *easily* overcharge the battery. No,
I don't mean it will rise to 24V, I mean it will over-gas the battery,
overheating it and cause the battery to bubble over and lose electrolyte.
When a lead-acid battery is nearly 100% discharged (or in your 7 volt case,
beyond 100%), you can charge wtih quite a high current at first. I've seen
charging schemes that start out as high as the 3-hour rate or even higher.
But you have to monitor the voltage carefully and cut-back on the current
when you reach TVG (temperature-voltage-gassing limit) or you'll just
shorten the battery life and waste a lot of water. Once current is reduced
to a pretty low level, then and only then should you let the voltage rise
above TVG.
Letting your batteries discharge beyond 100% and then charging the crap out
of them with a turbine who's voltage is uncontrolled is a sure fire way to
kill your batteries in a pretty short time. About the only thing you could
do worse would be to add very hard water to the cells when they need
watering or drop a piece of iron down the filler cap.
Yes, I'm speaking from experience, I was a a battery-charging electrician on
submarines, some of the largest lead-acid batteries in the world. Did it
for many years, using both manufacturer's and Navy's procedures and
policies.
daestrom
| |
|
|
|
|
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468E1FA0.7EC2327B@hotmail.com...
>
>
> tg wrote:
>
>
> Probably, given your comments here, because you haven't a damn clue
> how to use
> it properly.
>
> LMAO @ 'blade spinning'. You'r so clueless it's almost untrue.
oh really? blade spinning makes me clueless does it? you don't even
know what I'm talking about. The whole point of a turbine is to
capture power from the spinning of the blades as efficiently as
possible. You're an armchair theorist of the worst kind and there are
hundreds of inexperienced smart-arses just like you all over the
newsgroups. You lower the tone and integrity of discussions by
pretending you know about things you've never been near. A great
pretender.
| |
|
|
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:468E20DF.92A4A3BA@hotmail.com...
>
>
> tg wrote:
>
>
> A wind turbine is simply a wind-driven machine that generates
> electricity. It's
> fundamentally no different from any other similar machine whatever
> the power
> source is.
oh yes of course it is. You've read it in books so it must be true.
The fact that you have zero hands-on experience in these matters
doesn't mean a thing. You've read the books and looked at the
pictures, therefore you're an expert.
Have you ever personally studied the behaviour of a turbine in the
wind? No
Have you spent even one minute monitoring a turbine's output with
electrical equipment? No
Have you taken a turbine apart, serviced it, reassembled it,
re-installed it? No
Have you personally wired in a turbine? No
Have you spent time comparing wind speed to cut in speed to battery
voltage and battery capacity? No
Have you ever learnt a single thing about turbines as a result of the
errors you made with them? No
I've done all of the above, and you've done jack shit, that's what it
comes down to.
| |
|
|
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:468e5009$0$4913$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> So speaketh the backyard mechanic. Ever heard the phrase, 'jack of
> all trades, but master of none'?
so you don't have and never have had a turbine either eh? Goodness me
you armchair theorists are all over the place.
| |
| daestrom 2007-07-06, 5:25 pm |
|
"tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net> wrote in message
news:468e6cb2$0$15858$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:468e5009$0$4913$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> so you don't have and never have had a turbine either eh? Goodness me you
> armchair theorists are all over the place.
If you weren't so quick to jump to conclusions, you might have read my post.
I spoke mostly about the proper way to charge batteries and how not to abuse
them (like you apparently do).
My experience with charging batteries is far from 'arm-chair'. Why don't
you get that chip off your shoulder and quit making such an XXX of yourself.
daestrom
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-06, 5:25 pm |
| if the batteries are charged, the pv turns off, and the wind controller
dumps to a resistive load. You would only engage the gen if the batteries
were discharged, something that won't happen in times of sun and wind.
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
"BobG" <bobgardner@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1183650271.794365.212710@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Yo Steve.... lets say I have a 12V battery bank (two T105s), and some
> PV panels and a MPPT controller, AND a wind turbine & controller. Lets
> say the sun comes up before the wind starts. MPPT controller is
> putting out 13.8V. Everybody is happy. Then the wind picks up. Wind
> controller thinks... 'hey... battery has 13.8 volts... I better hump
> out 14.4V to charge that booger', which confuses the computer in the
> MPPT controller and it drops out and everybody is confused. So how do
> I use a generator, a wind turbine and PV panels to keep my battery
> bank charged? Have some sort of master controller that connects them
> one at a time? Bummer if you have sun and wind at the same time. Need
> 3 big diodes? 3 big .1 ohm resistors?
>
| |
| Steve Spence 2007-07-06, 5:25 pm |
|
"tg" <tg@nospamevereverever.net> wrote in message
news:468d4ecf$0$5872$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:468D240C.63C2A56F@hotmail.com...
>
> the advice I give is based on what I see and what I do, what works for
> me and what doesn't. It's based on things I've actually done and
> tried. You goddam fucking armchair theorists are all the same and
> you're ten a penny all over the newsgroups, having read a few articles
> you think you know it all, stupid cunt.. I bet you've never picked up
> a screwdriver in your life. You try to give me advice on wind turbines
> and you've never installed and run your own turbine. I have. I've run
> my own turbine for a year, watching the behaviour of the meter needles
> when the wind is blowing, learning what I could hands on. And what I
> learnt surprised me, even after years of experience repairing
> electrical items for a living.
> You're a disgrace. Fuck off.
>
I live off-grid and build my own wind turbines from scratch. I base my
advice on experience and sound physics. If my experience violates the laws
of physics, then I misunderstood the experience. You take a 12v battery
below 10.5 volts, and it's fully discharged. Please do a bit more reading at
http://www.batteryfaq.org/
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
| |
|
| On Jul 5, 10:28 pm, Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenf...@nospam.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 17:38:23 -0700, DJ <dj_macint...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> What jurisdictions would require aircraft anti-collision lighting for a
> 100' tower?
>
> In the US, it *might* be required if you are close to an airport.
Up here in Canada. The government's NavCan (Navigation Canada)
Department has some very peculiar rules regarding towers depending on
location.
DJ
| |
|
| On Jul 6, 6:06 am, "tg" <t...@nospamevereverever.net> wrote:
> I'm dissapointed with
> the Aero4gen, there's a lot of wasted blade spinning with no output to
> the batteries.
That's the thing with turbines; spinning doesn't equate production.
What you need to see is the power curve for the turbine, watts versus
meters per second, for example.
> we'll see. I'm not expecting more magical power from anywhere but I
> want to capture more power from the lower wind speeds.
Um, no offense, but if that would work, don't you think that the
commercial producers would do that? They'd sell alot more turbines if
they worked at lower speeds...
DJ
| |
| no spam 2007-07-06, 8:25 pm |
| >> All of one long year and you know it all.
>
> no, but I certainly know more than someone who's never owned and run their
> own turbine - namely you.
WOW, now I find out you are psychic!! You can tell if I do or do not own a
windmill just by reading one msg! Quick tell me the powerball lotto
numbers!!!
Too bad your numbers would be wrong seeing as how I have BUILT a windmill
from scratch. Not a very big one but it did teach me a lot of things about
them. How did you get the one you are playing with?
| |
| no spam 2007-07-06, 8:25 pm |
| >> You're one od those idiots who thinks that the science doesn't matter and
>
> you're one of those idiots who's read a couple of paragraphs on a web page
> and thinks he knows it all - you even have the gall to pretend you can
> advise others when you've never had, installed or run your own turbine.
> You base your 'advice' on the imaginations of what you think would happen
> but let me assure you that it's not until you run and experiment with a
> turbine do you realise they're full of surprises. They behave in ways you
> never expected - ways that a bookreader or science student would never
> know, despite a pretentious conviction that they do.
A car mechanic can tell you that charging and then discharging a 12 volt
battery to 7 volts over and over will kill a battery in no time. You don't
have to know ANYTHING about windmills to know what kills batteries, as I'm
sure you are about to discover.
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2007-07-06, 9:25 pm |
| On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 17:51:38 -0700, DJ <dj_macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Jul 5, 10:28 pm, Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenf...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>Up here in Canada. The government's NavCan (Navigation Canada)
>Department has some very peculiar rules regarding towers depending on
>location.
>
>DJ
Interesting.
In the US, if you are more than (if I recall correctly) 20,000 feet from an
airport surface, then the rules require lighting for structures that are
more than 200 ft above the ground.
If you are closer than 20,000' then the rules become somewhat complicated
and lighting will be required for lower towers, depending on exact distance
from an airport surface, as well as the type of runway.
--ron
| |
| David Williams 2007-07-07, 9:25 am |
| -> Up here in Canada. The government's NavCan (Navigation Canada)
-> Department has some very peculiar rules regarding towers depending on
-> location.
In marginal weather, pilots of light aircraft often use landmarks such
as highways to guide them while they fly low. Some 20 years ago, as far
as I recall, a plane that was being flown along Highway 400, near
Barrie, Ontario, struck a TV transmitting tower that was close to the
highway, destroying both the plane and the tower. This is one of the
reasons why NavCan requires towers, even quite low ones, to be very
obviously marked if they are close to anything that a pilot might use
as a guideline.
dow
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