Alternative Power sources - Wind turbine heat pump

Author

Wind turbine heat pump

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-20, 8:25 pm

Just a thought...
The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
directly (no electricity)?

Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
air.

The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).

The question is:
How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds? Any refrigeration/ air
conditioning techs out there?
If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?

gfretwell@aol.com

2007-02-20, 9:25 pm

On 20 Feb 2007 16:49:13 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>Just a thought...
>The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
>input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
>So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
>directly (no electricity)?
>
>Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
>the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
>1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
>air.
>
>The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
>ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
>as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
>
>The question is:
>How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds? Any refrigeration/ air
>conditioning techs out there?
>If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?

Interesting idea. I would start by looking at autromotive style
compressors. These work from an idle to highway speed. They are off
the shelf items and you might find a good one in a juink yard to
experiment with. The problem is these things are typically 2 ton units
on an American car. That is a lot for a windmill to spin. Maybe one
from a small foreign car would work.
I don't know if the manufacturer's have specs somewhere on their sites
or not. Ask around at the auto parts places to see who the main
suppliers are these days for aftermarket compressors. They are more
likely to have specs available.

Jeff

2007-02-21, 3:25 am

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2007 16:49:13 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>

In an auto unit, a lot of the low speed performance has to do with how
the expansion is handled. You should be able to google that up. Note
also that auto units don't usually have the lifespan of home compressors
as they are not designed to run day in and day out.

Jeff[color=darkred]
>
>
>
> Interesting idea. I would start by looking at autromotive style
> compressors. These work from an idle to highway speed. They are off
> the shelf items and you might find a good one in a juink yard to
> experiment with. The problem is these things are typically 2 ton units
> on an American car. That is a lot for a windmill to spin. Maybe one
> from a small foreign car would work.
> I don't know if the manufacturer's have specs somewhere on their sites
> or not. Ask around at the auto parts places to see who the main
> suppliers are these days for aftermarket compressors. They are more
> likely to have specs available.

alexibu

2007-02-21, 3:25 am

On Feb 21, 11:49 am, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> Just a thought...
> The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
> input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
> So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
> directly (no electricity)?
>
> Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
> the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
> 1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
> air.
>
> The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
> ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
> as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
>
> The question is:
> How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds? Any refrigeration/ air
> conditioning techs out there?
> If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?

I think you are misunderstanding what a heat pump is - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

The heat pump is not the actual compressor. It is the thermodynamic
cycle.
Therefore directly driving the compressor with wind turbine would not
have the benefits you are describing. They might have a small benefit,
but most likely it is beneficial to allow the wind turbine to run at
different speeds to the compressor.

Mike

2007-02-21, 9:25 am

> The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
> input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
> So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
> directly (no electricity)?
>
> Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
> the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
> 1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
> air.
>
> The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
> ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
> as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
>
> The question is:
> How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds? Any refrigeration/ air
> conditioning techs out there?
> If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?
>
Great idea, the compressor from a small car eg Honda City is quite small and
driven via a pulley belt drive via a magnetic clutch arrangement so could be
engaged when the wind speed was sufficient to allow the system to start
without stalling.

New generation heatpumps employ a variable speed drive on the motor, so the
compressor never actually stops but just slows down, makes them more
efficient.

Now you have got me thinking...

Cheers
Mike (NZ)

Joe Fischer

2007-02-21, 9:25 am

On 21 Feb 2007 01:15:07 -0800, "alexibu" <alexibu@mac.com> wrote:

>On Feb 21, 11:49 am, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>I think you are misunderstanding what a heat pump is - see
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
>
>The heat pump is not the actual compressor. It is the thermodynamic
>cycle.

I think he knows what a heat pump is, he probably
owns 2 or 3. Your link says a heat pump is any machine
that cools or heats using a working fluid and radiators.

>Therefore directly driving the compressor with wind turbine would not
>have the benefits you are describing.

Can you explain why not? Any air conditioner
can be used as a heat pump if it is put in the window
backwards.

The big thing about a heat pump is that both
radiators need to be able to tolerate high pressure
depending on cool or heat mode, plus an additional
orifice with a valve to change modes.

>They might have a small benefit,
>but most likely it is beneficial to allow the wind turbine to run at
>different speeds to the compressor.

Some windmills do run at a different speed than
the output shaft.

There is a problem with a heat pump though,
usually they are undersized in heating mode, normally
the temperature difference wanted in heat mode is
more than in cool mode.

A simple solution to this problem is to have
more than one heat pump for the same space,
then both can be run in heat mode if needed,
and chance are only one will be needed in
cool mode.

Installers and manufacturers know that a heat
pump does not work well or at all below freezing, so
backup heat strips are used when outdoors
temperatures are low (for air to air heat pumps.

Even so, a heat pump still needs an alternate
heating system for real cold weather, a huge heat pump
is needed for heating loads of 20 or 30 kilowatts, and
that would be the equivalent of a very small gas furnace.

Joe Fischer

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-21, 9:25 am

On 21 Feb, 11:30, "Mike" <msca...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Great idea, the compressor from a small car eg Honda City is quite small and
> driven via a pulley belt drive via a magnetic clutch arrangement so could be
> engaged when the wind speed was sufficient to allow the system to start
> without stalling.
>
> New generation heatpumps employ a variable speed drive on the motor, so the
> compressor never actually stops but just slows down, makes them more
> efficient.

Sounds ideal then!

>
> Now you have got me thinking...
>
> Cheers
> Mike (NZ)

I've been doing some more thinking too...
I would be using it mainly for heating because here in the Azores I
need an extra 5C in the house in the winter, outside it never drops
below 10C at night (more like 14C+). The windiest days are usually the
coldest.
I could also use one to heat my water (after pre-heating with solar
water heater panels)
and keep it up to temperature overnight.

I think a vertical axis turbine/s would be the most convenient for
this application because:
A) They don't need the rotating refrigerant-pipe joints which a
horizontal axis one would need (unless they use a reciprocating rod
driving a compressor piston directly, which would be the neatest)
B) They are dead simple + cheap to make
C) It doesn't matter which direction the wind comes from
D) I can easily bolt an electric generator on too/instead, if I feel
like it.

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-21, 9:25 am

On 21 Feb, 11:11, Jeff <dont_bug...@all.uk> wrote:[color=darkred]
> gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> In an auto unit, a lot of the low speed performance has to do with how
> the expansion is handled. You should be able to google that up. Note
> also that auto units don't usually have the lifespan of home compressors
> as they are not designed to run day in and day out.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>

Cheers, I'll look into car units.

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-21, 9:25 am

On 21 Feb, 05:03, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2007 16:49:13 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Interesting idea. I would start by looking at autromotive style
> compressors. These work from an idle to highway speed. They are off
> the shelf items and you might find a good one in a juink yard to
> experiment with. The problem is these things are typically 2 ton units
> on an American car. That is a lot for a windmill to spin. Maybe one
> from a small foreign car would work.
> I don't know if the manufacturer's have specs somewhere on their sites
> or not. Ask around at the auto parts places to see who the main
> suppliers are these days for aftermarket compressors. They are more
> likely to have specs available.

Auto units sound like a good start for experimenting, thanks.

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-21, 9:25 am

On 21 Feb, 13:02, Joe Fischer <j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2007 01:15:07 -0800, "alexibu" <alex...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I think he knows what a heat pump is, he probably
> owns 2 or 3. Your link says a heat pump is any machine
> that cools or heats using a working fluid and radiators.
>
>
> Can you explain why not? Any air conditioner
> can be used as a heat pump if it is put in the window
> backwards.

Exactly. In my case I'm more interested in the heating configuration,
though I could run the cold end of the cool pipe through my
refrigerator as a bonus.

>
> The big thing about a heat pump is that both
> radiators need to be able to tolerate high pressure
> depending on cool or heat mode, plus an additional
> orifice with a valve to change modes.

Point taken. I envisage the mast (scaffolding tube?) to play a part in
it.

>
>
> Some windmills do run at a different speed than
> the output shaft.
>
> There is a problem with a heat pump though,
> usually they are undersized in heating mode, normally
> the temperature difference wanted in heat mode is
> more than in cool mode.

Personally I don't need the cooling, so it will be designed for
heating.

>
> A simple solution to this problem is to have
> more than one heat pump for the same space,
> then both can be run in heat mode if needed,
> and chance are only one will be needed in
> cool mode.
>
> Installers and manufacturers know that a heat
> pump does not work well or at all below freezing, so
> backup heat strips are used when outdoors
> temperatures are low (for air to air heat pumps.

Not a problem here in the Azores but would be elsewhere.

>
> Even so, a heat pump still needs an alternate
> heating system for real cold weather, a huge heat pump
> is needed for heating loads of 20 or 30 kilowatts, and
> that would be the equivalent of a very small gas furnace.

My house only needs a measly 4kw to be comfortable in the winter,
there is not much temperature variance on Islands, the air is pretty
much the same as the sea temperature +/- land heating/radiance day/
night.
>
> Joe Fischer

Neon John

2007-02-21, 1:25 pm

On 20 Feb 2007 16:49:13 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>Just a thought...
>The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
>input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
>So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
>directly (no electricity)?
>
>Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
>the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
>1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
>air.
>
>The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
>ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
>as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
>
>The question is:
>How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds?

No, not unless designed for variable speeds and those are invariably
hermetically sealed brushless DC motor driven (or something equiv)

>Any refrigeration/ air conditioning techs out there?
>If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?

Yep. Make electricity. Drive an electric compressor. Think of the
electronics as a mystical magical transmission that can convert the
unsuitable variable speed, variable power output of a wind turbine
into power suitable to drive a refrigeration pump. Probably more
efficient than any sort of mechanical constant speed transmission
would be.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

Joe Fischer

2007-02-21, 1:25 pm

On 21 Feb 2007 06:29:44 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>Not a problem here in the Azores but would be elsewhere.

The biggest problem is buying, begging, or borrowing
a good enough oil induction vacuum pump to vaporize all
moisture in the system and suck it all out to get it dry before
putting the freon in.

Otherwise, the orifice will freeze up constantly.

Joe Fischer

gfretwell@aol.com

2007-02-21, 1:25 pm

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:27:25 -0500, Joe Fischer
<joe@westpointracing.com> wrote:

> The biggest problem is buying, begging, or borrowing
>a good enough oil induction vacuum pump to vaporize all
>moisture in the system and suck it all out to get it dry before
>putting the freon in.
>
> Otherwise, the orifice will freeze up constantly.

If you don't mind "venting" a little into the air all you really need
to do is purge the system and use a new dryer. Turn the can over and
shoot liquid in the high side until it comes out the other end. HVAC
techs used to do that all the time before the rules about discharging
changed.
If you use R134 it is not prohibitively expensive.
That is not as good as using the proper vacuum pump but millions of
systems were charged that way and worked.
A new dryer will take out all of the moisture normally in a system but
that still doesn't do anything for the inert air.

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-21, 5:25 pm

On 21 Feb, 18:21, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2007 16:49:13 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No, not unless designed for variable speeds and those are invariably
> hermetically sealed brushless DC motor driven (or something equiv)
>
>
> Yep. Make electricity. Drive an electric compressor. Think of the
> electronics as a mystical magical transmission that can convert the
> unsuitable variable speed, variable power output of a wind turbine
> into power suitable to drive a refrigeration pump. Probably more
> efficient than any sort of mechanical constant speed transmission
> would be.

Apparently variable speed is not a problem with automotive heat
pumps.
That means all the extra generating crap to go wrong is unnecessary,
and I'll get more than twice the heat than the wattage rating of the
turbine.

>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-21, 5:25 pm

On 21 Feb, 19:13, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:27:25 -0500, Joe Fischer
>
> <j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
>
>
> If you don't mind "venting" a little into the air all you really need
> to do is purge the system and use a new dryer. Turn the can over and
> shoot liquid in the high side until it comes out the other end. HVAC
> techs used to do that all the time before the rules about discharging
> changed.
> If you use R134 it is not prohibitively expensive.
> That is not as good as using the proper vacuum pump but millions of
> systems were charged that way and worked.
> A new dryer will take out all of the moisture normally in a system but
> that still doesn't do anything for the inert air.

Is Butane any good as a refrigerant? Most of the system would be
outdoors.

Neon John

2007-02-21, 5:25 pm

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:13:40 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

>If you don't mind "venting" a little into the air all you really need
>to do is purge the system and use a new dryer. Turn the can over and
>shoot liquid in the high side until it comes out the other end. HVAC
>techs used to do that all the time before the rules about discharging
>changed.
>If you use R134 it is not prohibitively expensive.
>That is not as good as using the proper vacuum pump but millions of
>systems were charged that way and worked.
>A new dryer will take out all of the moisture normally in a system but
>that still doesn't do anything for the inert air.

For about $30, one can get a venturi-type compressed-air operated
refrigeration vacuum pump from many places. Harbor Freight, NAPA,
etc. It only does about 28" of vacuum but with a new dryer and a
couple of "suck and purge" cycles (add refrigerant, suck it out,
repeat as necessary), the system will be more than dry and airless
enough.

For that matter, the compressor from an old refrigerator or freezer
(free, perhaps, from a used appliance dealer or scrap metal processor)
will do an adequate job. Not nearly as good as a proper vacuum pump
intended for the purpose but adequate for experimenting and personal
work.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

Neon John

2007-02-21, 5:25 pm

On 21 Feb 2007 12:13:25 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>
>Apparently variable speed is not a problem with automotive heat
>pumps.
>That means all the extra generating crap to go wrong is unnecessary,
>and I'll get more than twice the heat than the wattage rating of the
>turbine.

Actually you won't. An automotive compressor is similar to an
automotive alternator - it is designed to work fairly well over a wide
speed range but it doesn't work really well at any speed. Just as a
car alternator makes a pretty poor generator when efficiency matters,
so too does an automotive compressor.

To be able to supply useful cooling at idle speed (perhaps 1000 RPM
compressor shaft speed), to function well at twice-three times that
for cruising and not overheat or otherwise malfunction at maximum
engine speed (perhaps 8000 RPM shaft speed) requires several design
compromises that adversely affect efficiency.

Then there is the whole matter of frictional losses in the shaft seal.
This is considerable, especially with later model zero-leakage seals.
You'll find that many watts of energy are dissipated as heat in the
seal. I suggest getting an old compressor, gutting it of everything
but the shaft and seal, reassemble and pressurize the housing, lash it
up to an electric motor and measure the losses. BTDT but you ought to
do it too for the experience.

Frankly, you're not going to jack-sh*t with 200 watts of power. A
horsepower is 746 watts and roughly, one HP is about equivalent to 1
ton of cooling in a conventional HVAC unit. 1 ton is 12,000 BTU/hr.
At 200 watts, that's 200/746 or about 1/4 hp, ignoring losses. That's
about 3,000 BTU. After losses, figure maybe 2,000 BTU. Even the
tiniest single-room window unit can move 5,000 BTU. If everything is
well-optimized (not likely for a shadetree hack) then you might be
able to air condition a closet.

BTW, don't expect a Coefficient of Performance of 3 if you're trying
to heat with the unit. That is, pull heat from a cold area and pump
it into a hotter one. Even well-designed heat pumps rarely do much
better than 2.5 COP in the heating mode. You won't get anywhere close
to that.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

Vaughn Simon

2007-02-21, 5:25 pm

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:pqdpt21gbqe6njm1samcpgbsiindbi750g@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:13:40 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
> For that matter, the compressor from an old refrigerator or freezer
> (free, perhaps, from a used appliance dealer or scrap metal processor)
> will do an adequate job. Not nearly as good as a proper vacuum pump
> intended for the purpose but adequate for experimenting and personal
> work.

I use a tiny compressor salvaged from a junked out 5000 BTU window unit.
Works fine for my purposes. When not in use, I keep it sealed up in a used
5-gallon plastic paint can.

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-21, 8:25 pm

On 21 Feb, 23:39, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2007 12:13:25 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Actually you won't. An automotive compressor is similar to an
> automotive alternator - it is designed to work fairly well over a wide
> speed range but it doesn't work really well at any speed. Just as a
> car alternator makes a pretty poor generator when efficiency matters,
> so too does an automotive compressor.

Can't comment on automotive compressors as I've never seen one.
I do know that alternators are obviously crap in small scale wind
generators.

>
> To be able to supply useful cooling at idle speed (perhaps 1000 RPM
> compressor shaft speed), to function well at twice-three times that
> for cruising and not overheat or otherwise malfunction at maximum
> engine speed (perhaps 8000 RPM shaft speed) requires several design
> compromises that adversely affect efficiency.

(as I said, I'm not interested in cooling). As far as I can deduce,
the only change needed to convert a standard speed refrigeration
compressor to variable speed is a pressure valve instead of a fixed
size restrictor.

>
> Then there is the whole matter of frictional losses in the shaft seal.
> This is considerable, especially with later model zero-leakage seals.

Noted.
As it happens a friend of mine invented a zero leakage low-friction
seal, used by nasa now, amongst others, I gather.

> You'll find that many watts of energy are dissipated as heat in the
> seal. I suggest getting an old compressor, gutting it of everything
> but the shaft and seal, reassemble and pressurize the housing, lash it
> up to an electric motor and measure the losses. BTDT but you ought to
> do it too for the experience.

Thanks, but I get the jist.
>
> Frankly, you're not going to jack-sh*t with 200 watts of power.

It might do for testing.

> A
> horsepower is 746 watts and roughly, one HP is about equivalent to 1
> ton of cooling in a conventional HVAC unit. 1 ton is 12,000 BTU/hr.
> At 200 watts, that's 200/746 or about 1/4 hp, ignoring losses. That's
> about 3,000 BTU. After losses, figure maybe 2,000 BTU. Even the
> tiniest single-room window unit can move 5,000 BTU. If everything is
> well-optimized (not likely for a shadetree hack) then you might be
> able to air condition a closet.

Like I said, I need between 3-4kw

>
> BTW, don't expect a Coefficient of Performance of 3 if you're trying
> to heat with the unit.

I don't, because 1/3 of that is usually heat from the electric motor,
which we won't have.
I expect about 2, more if I re-use some of the pressure instead of
wasting it by forcing it through a restrictor nozzle/pressure valve,
but that's another discussion.

> That is, pull heat from a cold area and pump
> it into a hotter one. Even well-designed heat pumps rarely do much
> better than 2.5 COP in the heating mode. You won't get anywhere close
> to that.

We'll see....

>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

Dan Bloomquist

2007-02-21, 8:25 pm

markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
> On 21 Feb, 19:13, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Is Butane any good as a refrigerant? Most of the system would be
> outdoors.

Propane is superior to r-22.

Snap Whipcrack..............

2007-02-22, 1:25 pm

markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
> Just a thought...
> The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
> input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
> So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
> directly (no electricity)?
>
> Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
> the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
> 1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
> air.
>
> The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
> ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
> as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
>
> The question is:
> How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds? Any refrigeration/ air
> conditioning techs out there?
> If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?
>

Try a water wheel. All early settlers located near streams and rivers to
capture power from water wheels. Grain mills, power plants, factories,
saw mills, you name it. The age before steam was the most efficient.
Maybe we can go back there again when the oil runs out.

Tony Bryer

2007-02-22, 1:25 pm

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:23:28 GMT Snap Whipcrack.............. wrote :
> Try a water wheel. All early settlers located near streams and rivers to
> capture power from water wheels. Grain mills, power plants, factories,
> saw mills, you name it. The age before steam was the most efficient.
> Maybe we can go back there again when the oil runs out.

Hydro power is the same thing on a larger scale. But unlike wind you can
store it up and then release it at controlled rate.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-22, 5:25 pm

On 22 Feb, 18:23, "Snap Whipcrack.............." <s...@aol.com> wrote:
> markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Try a water wheel. All early settlers located near streams and rivers to
> capture power from water wheels. Grain mills, power plants, factories,
> saw mills, you name it. The age before steam was the most efficient.
> Maybe we can go back there again when the oil runs out.

Well yes, it should be possible to run heat pumps off waterwheels too,
if you happen to be next to a stream. In my particular case (and most
people's?) that's not really feasible though.
My point was that if all that's needed is some heat/cold when the
sun's not out and at night, powering a heatpump with a wind turbine
directly (like a simple 3-blade vertical axis one) might be very
feasible.

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-22, 5:25 pm

On 22 Feb, 19:11, Tony Bryer <t...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:23:28 GMT Snap Whipcrack.............. wrote :
>
>
> Hydro power is the same thing on a larger scale. But unlike wind you can
> store it up and then release it at controlled rate.

Actually most people can't, but if you have room for a lake then a
solar pond (google it)
might give you more heat than you can use.
This thread though is about driving heat pumps with wind turbines.
>
> --
> Tony Bryer SDA UK

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-22, 8:25 pm

On 21 Feb, 18:27, Joe Fischer <j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2007 06:29:44 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
> The biggest problem is buying, begging, or borrowing
> a good enough oil induction vacuum pump to vaporize all
> moisture in the system and suck it all out to get it dry before
> putting the freon in.
>
> Otherwise, the orifice will freeze up constantly.
>
> Joe Fischer

What if I use propane or butane instead of freon? Any bits containing
gas can be installed outside.

Jeff

2007-02-23, 3:25 am

Dan Bloomquist wrote:
>
>
> markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
> Propane is superior to r-22.
>
You can use isobutane and propane for R-12. Whatever you do, you'll want
a refrigerant close to what it was designed for.

Jeff

Joe Fischer

2007-02-23, 3:25 am

On 22 Feb 2007 16:04:01 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>On 21 Feb, 18:27, Joe Fischer <j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
>
>What if I use propane or butane instead of freon? Any bits containing
>gas can be installed outside.

I thought a radiator needed to be inside and
one outside.

But the pressure drops at the orifice and that
is where it working fluid is coldest, so moisture will
freeze, but others mentioned how to get it out
without a vacuum pump.

Joe Fischer

Anthony Matonak

2007-02-23, 3:25 am

Joe Fischer wrote:
> On 22 Feb 2007 16:04:01 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>
> I thought a radiator needed to be inside and
> one outside.

Sure, but it doesn't have to contain the working gas. I imagine
that this heat pump could be used as a kind of water heater and
the heated water circulated through whatever kind of radiator
inside is preferred.

Anthony

AJH

2007-02-23, 9:25 am

Followup-To set

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:21:43 -0500, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:

>
>Yep. Make electricity. Drive an electric compressor. Think of the
>electronics as a mystical magical transmission that can convert the
>unsuitable variable speed, variable power output of a wind turbine
>into power suitable to drive a refrigeration pump. Probably more
>efficient than any sort of mechanical constant speed transmission
>would be.

I agree which is why when he previously enquired I mooted the idea of
using a small battery as a temporary buffer. I think one of the
problems with grid tied turbines is that they don't make use of the
small amount of power they could generate below cut in speed. It could
be insignificant but a small permanent magnet alternator and a "joule
thief" type circuit could still be charging a battery at low speeds.
The compressor then only cuts in when there is enough charge in the
battery and runs for a period depending on battery capacity rather
than attempting to short cycle whenever a gust is strong enough.

The other advantage is that the market for electrical ac units is
large and competitive, so capital cost is a lot lower for a
sophisticated device.

A recent report in UK has shown an overall capacity factor below 30%
for wind power with some turbines in prominent (green sector) but
inappropriate sites generating as low as 10% of installed capacity. So
it must make sense to get the best use of the output, which in many
cases will be a non heating electrical use.

AJH

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-23, 9:25 am

On 23 Feb, 07:48, Joe Fischer <j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
> On 22 Feb 2007 16:04:01 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I thought a radiator needed to be inside and
> one outside.

No.
I can blow the warm air in from the outside.

>
> But the pressure drops at the orifice and that
> is where it working fluid is coldest, so moisture will
> freeze, but others mentioned how to get it out
> without a vacuum pump.

Useful bit of info that I didn't know before, thanks.
I think using propane/butane it should be simpler to get any moisture
out.

>
> Joe Fischer

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-23, 9:25 am

On 23 Feb, 12:44, AJH <n...@sylva.icuklive.co.uk> wrote:
> Followup-To set
>
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:21:43 -0500, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
>
> I agree which is why when he previously enquired I mooted the idea of
> using a small battery as a temporary buffer. I think one of the
> problems with grid tied turbines is that they don't make use of the
> small amount of power they could generate below cut in speed. It could
> be insignificant but a small permanent magnet alternator and a "joule
> thief" type circuit could still be charging a battery at low speeds.
> The compressor then only cuts in when there is enough charge in the
> battery and runs for a period depending on battery capacity rather
> than attempting to short cycle whenever a gust is strong enough.
>
> The other advantage is that the market for electrical ac units is
> large and competitive, so capital cost is a lot lower for a
> sophisticated device.
>
> A recent report in UK has shown an overall capacity factor below 30%
> for wind power with some turbines in prominent (green sector) but
> inappropriate sites generating as low as 10% of installed capacity. So
> it must make sense to get the best use of the output, which in many
> cases will be a non heating electrical use.
>
> AJH

By far the biggest home energy use in N.Europe is heating (and
probably the most polluting too).
It therefore makes sense to think of ways of applying renewable
methods to domestic heating.
A wind turbine driving a heat pump directly is one of these.
I don't see the point of adding a whole load of expensive electrical
clobber in between attempting to provide 240V AC if there is a way not
too. You could have a second turbine for that. It would only make
sense if one could be 100% self sufficient in wind electricty.

AJH

2007-02-23, 9:25 am

On 23 Feb 2007 06:12:57 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>By far the biggest home energy use in N.Europe is heating

Yes I think so

>(and
>probably the most polluting too).

Any reason to suggest that?

>It therefore makes sense to think of ways of applying renewable
>methods to domestic heating.

Yes

>A wind turbine driving a heat pump directly is one of these.

Yes but may be not optimally, for the reasons John and I gave. If you
can publish some figures that suggest a direct driven device can be
cheaper to build then I'll concede part of the point.

>I don't see the point of adding a whole load of expensive electrical
>clobber in between attempting to provide 240V AC if there is a way not
>too.

Maybe not but see below.

> You could have a second turbine for that. It would only make
>sense if one could be 100% self sufficient in wind electricty.

The reason it could make sense is to do with the avoided costs. Whilst
you are correct that more energy is used as heat than electricity and
it's probably cheaper to store heat than electricity on a daily basis
there will still be a demand for electricity. So you have two energy
requirements that have different values per kWhr and at differing
times.

So if, typically, your electrical power is worth 3 times your heating
power then, for a given investment and wind resource, it will pay to
use any energy available to satisfy the electrical demand when the
generation and demand (nearly) coincide. With the electrical
generation that is surplus then running the heat pump, remember all
losses still end up as heat in the house. John has pointed out, and
intuitively it seems likely, that the heat pump is best run at its
design speed, the electrical method with a battery as buffer storage
best meets this need.

AJH

Joe Fischer

2007-02-23, 1:25 pm

On 23 Feb 2007 05:52:39 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>
>No.
>I can blow the warm air in from the outside.

Will that really help, if the radiator springs
a leak, won't the gas be blown in with the warm air?

But many different gases have been used
in early units, some were quite toxic.

Joe Fischer

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-23, 5:25 pm

On 23 Feb, 17:27, Joe Fischer <j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
> On 23 Feb 2007 05:52:39 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
> Will that really help, if the radiator springs
> a leak, won't the gas be blown in with the warm air?

Very true, but at least it will stay outside if you switch the unit
off.
I was thinking of using stainless hydraulic pipe. If using propane/
butane the volume needed would'nt be a major cost factor.

>
> But many different gases have been used
> in early units, some were quite toxic.
>
> Joe Fischer

adm

2007-02-23, 5:25 pm

<markzoom@digiverse.net> wrote in message
news:1172185883.450340.319850@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> On 22 Feb, 18:23, "Snap Whipcrack.............." <s...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Well yes, it should be possible to run heat pumps off waterwheels too,
> if you happen to be next to a stream. In my particular case (and most
> people's?) that's not really feasible though.
> My point was that if all that's needed is some heat/cold when the
> sun's not out and at night, powering a heatpump with a wind turbine
> directly (like a simple 3-blade vertical axis one) might be very
> feasible.

Isn't it kind of self limiting though - and prone to huge friction losses ?
I would have though using an electronic approach would be more efficient on
a production volume basis (plus better for ongoing maintenance). The thing
with electronic "gubbins" is that it's far more more efficient and suitable
for lower cost, high volume production.

Given that most wind turbines are designed to generate electricity, would it
not be easier and more effective to go for an electronic approach - whether
VAWT or HAWT is then immaterial...

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-23, 8:25 pm

On 24 Feb, 00:17, "adm" <a...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> <markz...@digiverse.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1172185883.450340.319850@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Isn't it kind of self limiting though - and prone to huge friction losses ?

What friction? What do you mean? If you mean the pump seal then there
are ways around that. My friend invented a very low loss 100% seal
presently used on subaqua equipment prop drives, amongst other
things. It can easily cope with refrigerant pressures.

> I would have though using an electronic approach would be more efficient on
> a production volume basis (plus better for ongoing maintenance).

??? The electric approach is more complex and expensive.
The point of a heat pump is that it should provide at least double the
wattage output in heat than it would do electrically. The point is
also that if all you want is heat (and/or cold) when the wind is
blowing, it's pointless buying all the electrical clobber that goes in
between. It's also far cheaper, easier and reliable to store heat than
electricity.

> The thing
> with electronic "gubbins" is that it's far more more efficient and suitable
> for lower cost, high volume production.

Nonsense.
All you need for the heatpump setup is a simple V. axis turbine
(cheaper and simpler to manufacture than a horizontal axis one) a
variable speed heatpump (or rather a pressure regulating constrictor
for it) and some pipe.
That's about the price of just the electric air conditioner alone,
never mind an electricity generating turbine, inverter and control
electronics to power it all.
You don't even need expensive fangled refrigerant if you use butane/
propane instead And since lpg is cheap, you don't need fancy radiators
either, just lots of copper pipe.

>
> Given that most wind turbines are designed to generate electricity,

So what? I'm here to find the cheapest solutions for my own use, not
follow trends. I can make my own turbine. Hell, a schoolkid can make a
v.axis turbine.

> would it
> not be easier and more effective to go for an electronic approach - whether
> VAWT or HAWT is then immaterial...

If you only want heat, you don't need the "electronic" approach. You
could go the simpler electric way and use a bigger generating turbine
and a resistive heating element without inverters or semiconductor
electronics, but a heat pump should theoretically give more heat
output.

BTW.: I also suspect any standard heatpump compressor can be used at
variable speeds if the restrictor orifice is pressure regulated. A
sprung needle valve might do that job.

Neon John

2007-02-24, 3:25 am

On 23 Feb 2007 16:34:24 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>BTW.: I also suspect any standard heatpump compressor can be used at
>variable speeds if the restrictor orifice is pressure regulated. A
>sprung needle valve might do that job.

This is really kinda funny. You lack the refrigeration knowledge to
realize that the device you describe is the common thermostatic
expansion valve (TXV) and yet you argue against the sound advice given
by many of us who DO know HVAC. Either a troll or dumber'n a rock or
both. Either way you're headed to my lid file.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-24, 5:25 pm

On 24 Feb, 07:06, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
> On 23 Feb 2007 16:34:24 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
> This is really kinda funny.

Glad you're having fun.

> You lack the refrigeration knowledge to
> realize that the device you describe is the common thermostatic
> expansion valve (TXV)

That's why I asked for "experts" to comment.

> and yet you argue against the sound advice given
> by many of us who DO know HVAC.

I weigh up the comments made.
The bottom line is that a wind generator driven heat pump WILL give
more heat output than an electrically driven one, with the added bonus
of providing refrigeration and needing FAR FEWER COMPONENTS than an
expensive electricity generating turbine driving an expensive electric
air conditioning unit.

> Either a troll or dumber'n a rock or
> both. Either way you're headed to my lid file.

You do that. The rest of us can see the vast scope of an efficient
wind driven heating unit.

>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

RamRod Sword of Baal

2007-02-24, 5:25 pm

<markzoom@digiverse.net> wrote in message
news:1172348116.263743.29350@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> On 24 Feb, 07:06, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
> Glad you're having fun.
>
>
> That's why I asked for "experts" to comment.
>
>
> I weigh up the comments made.
> The bottom line is that a wind generator driven heat pump WILL give
> more heat output than an electrically driven one, with the added bonus
> of providing refrigeration and needing FAR FEWER COMPONENTS than an
> expensive electricity generating turbine driving an expensive electric
> air conditioning unit.
>
>
>
> You do that. The rest of us can see the vast scope of an efficient
> wind driven heating unit.

=======================

You can see what ever you want, that does not make it correct.

A few facts of life..

An electrically driven (sealed unit) puts out more heat in a heat pump
operation than a open (belt driven) unit, as the heat from the electric
motor is included in the output, simple as that.

For instance a 2 Hp motor uses around 1500 watts of power, that is over 4500
BTUs and in a sealed unit heat pump this is picked by the refrigerant and
can be collected for the heating process.

You cannot drive any old compressor at any speed you want, why, because the
oil pump will not supply oil to the various parts if the speed is not fast
enough, that goes for sealed units or open units (belt driven) which
includes automotive compressors.

If any compressor is driven too slow, it will seize up through lack of
lubrication.

-------------------

While talking in general about the possibility of using a wind turbine to
drive a compressor to run as a heat pump, has anyone any idea just what size
a windmill would need to be to turn such a thing, it would be very large, if
not huge.

It would pose certain engineering problems to get a compressor (belt driven)
to start at a certain windmill speed, and stop before the speed fell too low
so that the compressor lubrication would fail.

There would be a minimum size limit on such a system because of heat losses
in the pipework etc which would have to be overcome before any useful heat
for heating is obtained, so some micky mouse size system is not an option.

Heat pumps in a sealed unit situation (which means they have the heat from
the motor) breaks even generally around 45 f with resistance (element)
heating, below 45, they are LESS efficient than electic elements.
IE the more heat outside the more efficient they become.

Below 45 F ice forms on the outdoor coil and heat pick up is hindered by the
insulation on the pipework by the ice. I am sure with clever engineering
this could be lowered a little, but here we are talking generally about
unskilled people trying to engineer build problem such a device.......

In well designed heat pump systems, below 45 f de-ice circuits are brought
into service to control this icing problem, which would be difficult on a
straight out heat pump operation unit wind driven device. These de-icing
circuits do tend to keep the coils somewhat free of ice, but reduce the
overall heating effect obtainable. IE when the go onto a de-ice cycle, then
while on this operation, no heat is available for the conditioned space.

Not a problem with a well designed system, as you can bring addition heat on
in the form of electric elements during this period, or have a larger than
required unit to help overcome this problem.

Anyone considering such a system must be advised that you would have to
think of fans to drive the air over both the heating and coiling coils, or
they would become really huge.

I have seen where someone tried to use a static condenser (one with out a
fan) on an air conditioning system. It was a 2 hp sealed unit system and the
condenser coil was 6 feet long, 2 feet wide and 5 inches deep, the condenser
coil came from a 50,000 BTU condenser originally and there was no way it
could handle the 20,000 or so BTU output of the 2 HP compressor without fan
assistance. They even tried water sprays to help, but it did not work.

The cost would be prohibitive for such size coils.

=================

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-24, 8:25 pm

On 25 Feb, 01:19, "RamRod Sword of Baal" <RamRo...@truthonly.com>
wrote:
> <markz...@digiverse.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1172348116.263743.29350@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =======================
>
> You can see what ever you want, that does not make it correct.
>
> A few facts of life..
>
> An electrically driven (sealed unit) puts out more heat in a heat pump
> operation than a open (belt driven) unit, as the heat from the electric
> motor is included in the output, simple as that.

Already said so, which is why efficiency would be "only" twice input
power.

>
> For instance a 2 Hp motor uses around 1500 watts of power, that is over 4500
> BTUs and in a sealed unit heat pump this is picked by the refrigerant and
> can be collected for the heating process.

I know.

>
> You cannot drive any old compressor at any speed you want, why, because the
> oil pump will not supply oil to the various parts if the speed is not fast
> enough, that goes for sealed units or open units (belt driven) which
> includes automotive compressors.

OK, so I'll use one that can.
>
> If any compressor is driven too slow, it will seize up through lack of
> lubrication.

You are forgetting oil-less compressors.

>
> -------------------
>
> While talking in general about the possibility of using a wind turbine to
> drive a compressor to run as a heat pump, has anyone any idea just what size
> a windmill would need to be to turn such a thing, it would be very large, if
> not huge.

??? Heat pumps come in any size. A 500 watt turbine would run a
heatpump that would require a 500 watt motor, more or less.
Why would you want to use an air compressor instead of an HVAC
compressor?

>
> It would pose certain engineering problems to get a compressor (belt driven)
> to start at a certain windmill speed, and stop before the speed fell too low
> so that the compressor lubrication would fail.

No. Car air conditoning systems run at any speed up to maximum as
someone said previousy.

>
> There would be a minimum size limit on such a system because of heat losses
> in the pipework etc which would have to be overcome before any useful heat
> for heating is obtained, so some micky mouse size system is not an option.

???
An average fridge only uses about 100 watts intermittantly.
Refrigeration is quite a large expenditiure on annual energy bills.

>
> Heat pumps in a sealed unit situation (which means they have the heat from
> the motor) breaks even generally around 45 f with resistance (element)
> heating, below 45, they are LESS efficient than electic elements.
> IE the more heat outside the more efficient they become.

Good point. (As it happens where I am, it never goes below 10C at
night).
In places where it goes below 7.2C (45F), it would probably only be
any use as part of a ground source system.

>
> Below 45 F ice forms on the outdoor coil and heat pick up is hindered by the
> insulation on the pipework by the ice. I am sure with clever engineering
> this could be lowered a little, but here we are talking generally about
> unskilled people trying to engineer build problem such a device.......
>
> In well designed heat pump systems, below 45 f de-ice circuits are brought
> into service to control this icing problem, which would be difficult on a
> straight out heat pump operation unit wind driven device. These de-icing
> circuits do tend to keep the coils somewhat free of ice, but reduce the
> overall heating effect obtainable. IE when the go onto a de-ice cycle, then
> while on this operation, no heat is available for the conditioned space.
>
> Not a problem with a well designed system, as you can bring addition heat on
> in the form of electric elements during this period, or have a larger than
> required unit to help overcome this problem.
>
> Anyone considering such a system must be advised that you would have to
> think of fans to drive the air over both the heating and coiling coils, or
> they would become really huge.
>
> I have seen where someone tried to use a static condenser (one with out a
> fan) on an air conditioning system. It was a 2 hp sealed unit system and the
> condenser coil was 6 feet long, 2 feet wide and 5 inches deep, the condenser
> coil came from a 50,000 BTU condenser originally and there was no way it
> could handle the 20,000 or so BTU output of the 2 HP compressor without fan
> assistance. They even tried water sprays to help, but it did not work.
>
> The cost would be prohibitive for such size coils.

Interesting.
As you point out, below certain temperatures heat pumps as heaters
appear only useful as part of a ground source system.
There is still the other side of the equation, cooling in hot
climates.

>
> =================

Mauried

2007-02-24, 9:25 pm

On 24 Feb 2007 12:15:16 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>On 24 Feb, 07:06, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
>Glad you're having fun.
>
>
>That's why I asked for "experts" to comment.
>
>
>I weigh up the comments made.
>The bottom line is that a wind generator driven heat pump WILL give
>more heat output than an electrically driven one, with the added bonus
>of providing refrigeration and needing FAR FEWER COMPONENTS than an
>expensive electricity generating turbine driving an expensive electric
>air conditioning unit.
>

It may do, but at what cost.
I just recently bought a 1HP reverse cycle AC to heat and cool my
study.
It cost me $450.
Will your wind driven system with its turbine , mast to hold the
turbine , installation costs of the tower and foundations plus all the
pipes and air exchangers cost $450 or less.
Somehow I dont think so.
People get far to obsessed with efficiency and lose sight of reality.

RamRod Sword of Baal

2007-02-24, 9:25 pm

<markzoom@digiverse.net> wrote in message
news:1172364988.551746.274310@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> On 25 Feb, 01:19, "RamRod Sword of Baal" <RamRo...@truthonly.com>
>
> Already said so, which is why efficiency would be "only" twice input
> power.
>
>
> I know.
>
>
> OK, so I'll use one that can.

Let me know when you find one, as working in the industry for around 40
years and I have yet to see one.......

>
> You are forgetting oil-less compressors.

No, tell me where you can get an oil-less refrigeration compressor.

The only air-less compressors I have heard about are air compressors, and
they certainly would not be suitable for use in a refrigeration system.

>
> ??? Heat pumps come in any size. A 500 watt turbine would run a
> heatpump that would require a 500 watt motor, more or less.
> Why would you want to use an air compressor instead of an HVAC
> compressor?

Do you ever read before you type, never have I mentioned air compressors,
the types I have mentioned are sealed units, belt driven and automotive
compressors, which of course also fall into the catogery of belt driven, all
of which are refrigeration compressors.

So heat pumps come in all sizes, like to show me an ad for one that is 500
watts?

Are you trying to say that you would put all the cost and effort into
building a heat pump system that would only need 500 watts to drive it?

The amount of heat you could collect would not be worth the cost or effort.

>
> No. Car air conditoning systems run at any speed up to maximum as
> someone said previousy.

Wrong, they do not run at all speeds, the slowest they run is at the vehicle
idle speed usually around 500 RPM or above, and then they are usually geared
up by the pully system to a much higher speed. Compressors run of a turbine
or windmill have no such lower speed limit and can run down very low speed.

>
> ???
> An average fridge only uses about 100 watts intermittantly.
> Refrigeration is quite a large expenditiure on annual energy bills.

The subject is "Wind turbine heat pump" and that has little or nothing to do
with domestic refrigetaion.

..
> There is still the other side of the equation, cooling in hot
> climates.

Again the subject is heat pumps. You are throwing out red herrings.

Think about this, say you build a heat pump running off a mill or turbine,
and you actually get it to work, what happens when there is little or no
wind and it is cold........

You need quite a strong wind to turn a compressor, if in doubt look up what
they recommend for generators of the size you are thinking of. It at least
gives you some idea of what you are looking at.

Here is something for you to look at. It is a 400 watt wind generator, it
has a blade diameter of 1.15m (About 4 feet) and it needs a 27 mile and hour
wind to get up to around 400 watts. At 15 MPH it puts out less than 100
watts...........

http://www.solarshop.com.au/wind%20turbines%20page.htm

Here we have a 1000 watts generator, it has over a 3 metre diameter blade
(almost 10 feet), and it produces its rated capacity at around 9 metes per
sec which is over 20 miles per hour.

http://chinapeople.en.alibaba.com/p...bine__1kW_.html

Now there are commercially available units, not home made.............

IE you need a lot of constant strong wind, and a big blade. A big blade
meens a big tower, which all equals money.

If you wish to build such a device, please go ahead, but I have told you
many limitations about such a venture, so go ahead at your own risk.

I would not, and I have experience in the field of heat pumps.

I have seen a multi compressor units 6 x 100 HP heat pump system that was
designed by experts, and there were major problems with it, it took years to
overcome the problems.

I have seen domestic units designed by large manufactures of air
conditioning equipment that did not work properly, so designing such a
system is not all that easy, and they did not have to contend with wind
speed, or lack of it.

RamRod Sword of Baal

2007-02-24, 9:25 pm

"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@redrok.com> wrote in message
news:45E0E6EB.7020805@redrok.com...
> Hi RamRodl;
>
> RamRod Sword of Baal <RamRodOz@truthonly.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ok, A unit of power.
>
>
> But of course, this is not a unit of power.
>
> Please be more careful.
>
> Duane

If you wish to be pedantic, then a horsepower is 746 watts, and a watt is
equal to 3.142 BTUs

The power (watts) are used in the electric motor inside the sealed unit
compressor, and heat (BTUs) are given off in the process, which in turn is
picked up by the refrigerant and has to be eliminated.

The numbers are theoretical, and I have not included any losses, so shoot
me..............

Joe Fischer

2007-02-25, 3:25 am

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 03:18:03 GMT, "RamRod Sword of Baal"
<RamRodOz@truthonly.com> wrote:

>If you wish to be pedantic, then a horsepower is 746 watts, and a watt is
>equal to 3.142 BTUs

He meant that it should be BTUs / hour to equal watts,
but then watt hours can also equal BTUs.

The hours just need to be in the right place.

Joe Fischer

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-25, 5:25 pm

On 25 Feb, 04:27, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2007 12:15:16 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It may do, but at what cost.
> I just recently bought a 1HP reverse cycle AC to heat and cool my
> study.
> It cost me $450.

You forgot to add the electricity bills for the life of your unit.

> Will your wind driven system with its turbine , mast to hold the
> turbine , installation costs of the tower and foundations plus all the
> pipes and air exchangers cost $450 or less.
> Somehow I dont think so.
> People get far to obsessed with efficiency and lose sight of reality.

You lost sight of your electricity bill.

gfretwell@aol.com

2007-02-25, 8:25 pm

On 25 Feb 2007 11:32:13 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>On 25 Feb, 04:27, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>
>You forgot to add the electricity bills for the life of your unit.
>
>
>You lost sight of your electricity bill.
>

I think his point is you can get "free" energy from the environmernt
but, by the time you amortize your capital expense and maintain the
system it will be the most expensive way to heat/cool your home. That
is why I suggested using junk car parts or other "damn near free"
stuff for your expiriments, to prove the concept and have some fun
without breaking the bank.
It will never be cost effective, the only question is how much do you
want to spend to prove that. Actually if you can make a somewhat
effective system for a few hundred bucks you might actually cool/heat
a small space for (almost) free.

markzoom@digiverse.net

2007-02-25, 8:25 pm

On 26 Feb, 02:04, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On 25 Feb 2007 11:32:13 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think his point is you can get "free" energy from the environmernt
> but, by the time you amortize your capital expense and maintain the
> system it will be the most expensive way to heat/cool your home. That
> is why I suggested using junk car parts or other "damn near free"
> stuff for your expiriments, to prove the concept and have some fun
> without breaking the bank.

Most western manufactured green energy stuff is too expensive, yes.
But if you check out some chinese manufacturers you'll get a pleasant
surprise.

> It will never be cost effective, the only question is how much do you
> want to spend to prove that. Actually if you can make a somewhat
> effective system for a few hundred bucks you might actually cool/heat
> a small space for (almost) free.

That's my plan. Roof windows (with blinds for summer) are one
effective way but I need
something that works on winter nights and cloudy days here to heat
both water and house. I need about 3 kw of heat in total. Much of it
can come from solar.

Mauried

2007-02-25, 8:25 pm

On 25 Feb 2007 11:32:13 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:

>On 25 Feb, 04:27, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>
>You forgot to add the electricity bills for the life of your unit.
>
>
>You lost sight of your electricity bill.
>
>
No, Im not.
You have to look at the current and the future value of money.
Money that isnt spent today on large capital items like wind turbines
or solar cells can be invested which will produce dividends that will
pay your power bills forever more.
I looked at the option of wind power and useing a small example of
a 1KW wind turbine , installed cost UK 3000 pounds, that around $10K
AUD.
http://www.micropower.co.uk/about/turbines.html
I chose instead to not go down that road aand invested $10K at 8%
which gives me a dividend of $800 PA which pays my entire power bill.
Not just the power bill for my small air conditioner.
A lot of people think that power or energy thats made from renewable
sources is somehow free as they dont have to pay power bills, but they
ignore the fact that the same capital invested will in most cases more
than cover all the bills you will incurr.
..

Joe Fischer

2007-02-25, 8:25 pm

On Mon, mauried@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:

>http://www.micropower.co.uk/about/turbines.html
>I chose instead to not go down that road aand invested $10K at 8%
>which gives me a dividend of $800 PA which pays my entire power bill.
>Not just the power bill for my small air conditioner.
>A lot of people think that power or energy thats made from renewable
>sources is somehow free as they dont have to pay power bills, but they
>ignore the fact that the same capital invested will in most cases more
>than cover all the bills you will incurr.

A lot of people don't have $10K, but they may have
good credit and can buy energy saving equipment.

Many if not most decisions are based on ability
to pay cash, or on available credit, and even with bad
credit it might be possible to buy an old gas guzzler car.

Joe Fischer

John

2007-09-03, 11:11 am

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:53:06 -0500, Joe Fischer
<joe@westpointracing.com> wrote:

>On Mon, mauried@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>
>
> A lot of people don't have $10K, but they may have
>good credit and can buy energy saving equipment.
>
> Many if not most decisions are based on ability
>to pay cash, or on available credit, and even with bad
>credit it might be possible to buy an old gas guzzler car.
>
>Joe Fischer

Joe
There is a lot of water in the Azores and never goes below plus 2ºC
Get a small heat pump and feed the compressor with cells or wind with
a battery.
You should be able to get a FOP of 5. Meaning with 1 KWh you get 5KWh
of heat.
In your case the only energy you use is to run the compressor and fan

Trabalhará na maravilha

John

John

2007-09-03, 11:11 am

John

2007-09-03, 11:12 am

John

2007-09-03, 11:12 am

John

2007-09-03, 11:12 am

John

2007-09-03, 11:12 am

John

2007-09-03, 11:12 am

John

2007-09-03, 11:12 am

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