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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > September 2007 > Emergency Power from a Prius
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Emergency Power from a Prius
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| Daniel Who Wants to Know 2007-09-04, 5:25 pm |
| "Moe" <BubbleleLand@Fat.City> wrote in message
news:F29Di.294771$5y.178996@newsfe18.lga...
> Power to the People: Run Your House on a Prius
> During a recent six-hour power failure, Mr. Factor estimated that his 2005
> Prius used less than one gallon of gasoline.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/a...gin&oref=slogin
As I wrote in the Toyota Newsgroup when "Jeff" posted this:
This is not new news to me as I have known for months that this is possible
and I don't even own one. You can also pull about 1kw from the 12v bus
continuously as long as the car is in "READY" mode.
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| RW Salnick 2007-09-04, 5:25 pm |
| Daniel Who Wants to Know brought forth on stone tablets:
> "Moe" <BubbleleLand@Fat.City> wrote in message
> news:F29Di.294771$5y.178996@newsfe18.lga...
>
>
>
> As I wrote in the Toyota Newsgroup when "Jeff" posted this:
>
> This is not new news to me as I have known for months that this is possible
> and I don't even own one. You can also pull about 1kw from the 12v bus
> continuously as long as the car is in "READY" mode.
>
>
.... and I can pull approximately 1.3 KW from the 12V bus continuously in
my 1985 TransAm (100 amp alternator), as long as it is in "Ready" mode.
In fact, one can pull about 1.7 KW from the 12V bus in *any* car
equipped with a 130 amp alternator.
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| Daniel Who Wants to Know 2007-09-04, 5:25 pm |
| "RW Salnick" <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote in message
news:fbkbe5$v7o$1@gnus01.u.washington.edu...
> Daniel Who Wants to Know brought forth on stone tablets:
>
>
> ... and I can pull approximately 1.3 KW from the 12V bus continuously in
> my 1985 TransAm (100 amp alternator), as long as it is in "Ready" mode. In
> fact, one can pull about 1.7 KW from the 12V bus in *any* car equipped
> with a 130 amp alternator.
>
The Difference is that the output of alternators depends on engine speed and
that to provide full power continuously the car would have to at least be at
high idle. Also most alternators on cars will overheat and burn out if
asked to provide full rated amperage for very long. To get full output for
hours instead of minutes would require a truck or ambulance alternator that
was designed for a 100% duty cycle. Also to provide that output the engine
would have to be on at all times just to spin it which would use lots of
gas. The Prius OTOH doesn't have an alternator, it has a liquid cooled 100
amp dc-dc converter which uses the HV bus to supply the 12v bus. Because of
this not only will it provide the full output until the car runs out of gas
but since the engine only cycles on a few times an hour to recharge the
traction battery it would consume less gas for the same output which means
more time between refills.
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Daniel Who Wants to Know wrote:
>
> "RW Salnick" <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote in message
> news:fbkbe5$v7o$1@gnus01.u.washington.edu...
>
> The Difference is that the output of alternators depends on engine speed and
> that to provide full power continuously the car would have to at least be at
> high idle. Also most alternators on cars will overheat and burn out if
> asked to provide full rated amperage for very long. To get full output for
> hours instead of minutes would require a truck or ambulance alternator that
> was designed for a 100% duty cycle. Also to provide that output the engine
> would have to be on at all times just to spin it which would use lots of
> gas. The Prius OTOH doesn't have an alternator, it has a liquid cooled 100
> amp dc-dc converter which uses the HV bus to supply the 12v bus. Because of
> this not only will it provide the full output until the car runs out of gas
> but since the engine only cycles on a few times an hour to recharge the
> traction battery it would consume less gas for the same output which means
> more time between refills.
Hmmmmm....wonder if could take a wrecked prius and hook it up through
an inverter.....and disconnect from the grid....would have to work
out gallons per kw/h.....and how long could expect to last before
rebuild/replacement.....does anyone have any efficiency numbers...???
have fun......sno
--
No matter how dangerous nuclear power may or
may not be.....
Is it any more dangerous then what we are doing
now.....???
This tag line is generated by:
SLNG (Silly Little Nuclear Generator)
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| Arnold Walker 2007-09-04, 8:25 pm |
|
"sno" <sno@opelc.com> wrote in message news:46DDC2D0.7265996B@opelc.com...
>
>
> Daniel Who Wants to Know wrote:
All of which is done on high powered stereo custom installations.
Of course, you can come out cheaper and get a Harley with the water cooled
option than a Prius.
Run a PTO generatorhead unit.......
Or you can pickup a farm tractor and run the head on it .
They also do that with frieght trains in disaster areas while the supplies
are coming.
A Dash 7 locomotive can kick out 2MW while plugged into a community supply.
It's just a shame Prius didn't do as good a job of copying the technology in
thier little car.
All that BS, you mentioned on the electrics was prefected on rail
locomotives 70years ago.
The Prius has not matched technology of locomotives built 30years ago,yet.
May when we start hearing fly-by -wire multi unit connections and braking
with slip control.
So you can get even better performance by stringing 10 prius together with
lead driver in control
of the entire train.With integral towbar, hitch ,and multi control unit.
Might even not need to start your engine because towunit would drag your XXX
down the tollway far enorgh that
the regenerative charging would have your batteries fully charged when you
exit the tollway.
[color=darkred]
>
> Hmmmmm....wonder if could take a wrecked prius and hook it up through
> an inverter.....and disconnect from the grid....would have to work
> out gallons per kw/h.....and how long could expect to last before
> rebuild/replacement.....does anyone have any efficiency numbers...???
>
> have fun......sno
>
> --
> No matter how dangerous nuclear power may or
> may not be.....
> Is it any more dangerous then what we are doing
> now.....???
>
> This tag line is generated by:
> SLNG (Silly Little Nuclear Generator)
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"Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1188945488_13801@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
> So you can get even better performance by stringing 10 prius together with
> lead driver in control
> of the entire train.With integral towbar, hitch ,and multi control unit.
> Might even not need to start your engine because towunit would drag your XXX
> down the tollway far enorgh that
> the regenerative charging would have your batteries fully charged when you
> exit the tollway.
Sounds like a typical "free-energy" scheme.
Bob
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| Daniel Who Wants to Know 2007-09-04, 9:25 pm |
|
"Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1188945488_13801@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>
> "sno" <sno@opelc.com> wrote in message news:46DDC2D0.7265996B@opelc.com...
> All of which is done on high powered stereo custom installations.
The OP was posting an article about something that you could do easily to
power part of your house, not a custom SPL vehicle.
> Of course, you can come out cheaper and get a Harley with the water cooled
> option than a Prius.
> Run a PTO generatorhead unit.......
The Harley is a motorcycle not a car
>
> Or you can pickup a farm tractor and run the head on it .
Once again the point was using your mostly unmodified car to power your
home. If the point were about buying something just to power your house a
Honda inverter generator would be easier than a tractor.
> They also do that with frieght trains in disaster areas while the supplies
> are coming.
> A Dash 7 locomotive can kick out 2MW while plugged into a community
> supply.
Good to hear that they can kick out power when needed.
> It's just a shame Prius didn't do as good a job of copying the technology
> in thier little car.
The Prius is just a model name, the sentance should have been "It's just a
shame Toyota didn't do as good a job of copying the technology in thier
little car." Besides that they didn't want to copy it because trains are
expensive, heavy, and travel on rails and cars are cheap, light, and travel
on roads.
> All that BS, you mentioned on the electrics was prefected on rail
> locomotives 70years ago.
> The Prius has not matched technology of locomotives built 30years ago,
> yet.
Locomotives are serial hybrids with only an electrical link between the
engine and the wheels. The Prius is a serial/parallel hybrid in that when
starting out and at low speeds most of the engine power is routed through an
electrical link and at highway crusing speed most of the power goes through
the direct mechanical link which is more effecient. Toyota thought about
using a serial system but it would have resulted in poorer mileage on the
highway, they thought about a parallel system but Honda already did that
and they didn't want to copy them either, in the end the series/parallel
system they came up with using the power-split device and two
motor/generators (Honda's system only has 1) works very well under all
conditions.
> May when we start hearing fly-by -wire multi unit connections and braking
> with slip control.
> So you can get even better performance by stringing 10 prius together with
> lead driver in control
> of the entire train.With integral towbar, hitch ,and multi control unit.
> Might even not need to start your engine because towunit would drag your
> XXX down the tollway far enorgh that
> the regenerative charging would have your batteries fully charged when you
> exit the tollway.
>
People who drive cars don't want to have someone else in control the whole
point of having a car is to be independant. If we wanted someone else in
control we would all not have cars and would ride the bus instead. Also the
Prius is already by-wire in that the accelerator pedal is just a position
sensor, the shift lever is just a switch because the only thing that
"shifts" in the transaxle is the motor driven parking pawl, and the engine
throttle is motor actuated.
I think anyone who wants to bash the Prius should do some research before
assuming that it is a bad thing. For instance name one other item with a
NiMh battery that always keeps the SOC between 40 and 80% and charges it in
short high current pulses.
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| Arnold Walker 2007-09-05, 5:25 pm |
|
"Daniel Who Wants to Know" <danielthechskid@merrychristmasi.com> wrote in
message news:s7oDi.68501$Xa3.59748@attbi_s22...
>
> "Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
> news:1188945488_13801@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>
> The OP was posting an article about something that you could do easily to
> power part of your house, not a custom SPL vehicle.
>
>
> The Harley is a motorcycle not a car
>
>
> Once again the point was using your mostly unmodified car to power your
> home. If the point were about buying something just to power your house a
> Honda inverter generator would be easier than a tractor.
>
>
> Good to hear that they can kick out power when needed.
>
>
> The Prius is just a model name, the sentance should have been "It's just a
> shame Toyota didn't do as good a job of copying the technology in thier
> little car." Besides that they didn't want to copy it because trains are
> expensive, heavy, and travel on rails and cars are cheap, light, and
> travel on roads.
>
>
> Locomotives are serial hybrids with only an electrical link between the
> engine and the wheels. The Prius is a serial/parallel hybrid in that when
> starting out and at low speeds most of the engine power is routed through
> an electrical link and at highway crusing speed most of the power goes
> through the direct mechanical link which is more effecient. Toyota
> thought about using a serial system but it would have resulted in poorer
> mileage on the highway, they thought about a parallel system but Honda
> already did that and they didn't want to copy them either, in the end the
> series/parallel system they came up with using the power-split device and
> two motor/generators (Honda's system only has 1) works very well under all
> conditions.
>
>
> People who drive cars don't want to have someone else in control the whole
> point of having a car is to be independant. If we wanted someone else in
> control we would all not have cars and would ride the bus instead. Also
> the Prius is already by-wire in that the accelerator pedal is just a
> position sensor, the shift lever is just a switch because the only thing
> that "shifts" in the transaxle is the motor driven parking pawl, and the
> engine throttle is motor actuated.
>
> I think anyone who wants to bash the Prius should do some research before
> assuming that it is a bad thing. For instance name one other item with a
> NiMh battery that always keeps the SOC between 40 and 80% and charges it
> in short high current pulses.
It doesn't take much to bash a bad idea....consider that most Prius users
also promote
mass transit and public plug ins.So,the road trains would actually get the
exact same
talking head plugs ,that bus and light rail gets.Of course, having different
toll gates to flag different exits for
staging ,may be too much for a Prius operator to understand.Gives the toll
road extra income to boot ...
could hook my Peterbilt up to 30 Prius and drag them to thier designated
exit.Now if Toyota could add in a box beam
between the hitchs, we could extend that out to a 100 Pruis without any of
them going two piece from shearing action
..Might even add a modified log loader to pick up the wrecked cars blocking
traffic along the way and deposit them at the accident checkpoints.
The officers wouldn't even have to step of thier booth to type up the
reports.Might even upgrade to a state owned junkyard/insurance (univeral car
care policy)
office right next the booth.
And your NiMh would be all charged up by the time you "coasted" to your
exit.
As to fly by wire,the Dash 7 had it in 1976 and Prius doesn't has slip
control.
Toyota didn't know what either were in 1976.......
Many switchyard engine also had CV transmissions back then.
>
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| Daniel Who Wants to Know 2007-09-06, 3:25 am |
|
"Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1189018052_14287@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>
> And your NiMh would be all charged up by the time you "coasted" to your
> exit.
No it wouldn't because 82% is a hard limit enforced by the battery ECU.
Once the battery reached 82% SOC all regeneration would stop and the car
would spin up the engine slightly faster to use engine braking instead. If
you pressed on the beake pedal it would be all friction braking.
> As to fly by wire,the Dash 7 had it in 1976 and Prius doesn't has slip
> control.
OK I'll bite what is slip control by your definition.
| |
| Arnold Walker 2007-09-06, 5:25 pm |
|
"Daniel Who Wants to Know" <danielthechskid@merrychristmasi.com> wrote in
message news:5LKDi.70095$Xa3.3400@attbi_s22...
>
> "Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
> news:1189018052_14287@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>
> No it wouldn't because 82% is a hard limit enforced by the battery ECU.
> Once the battery reached 82% SOC all regeneration would stop and the car
> would spin up the engine slightly faster to use engine braking instead.
> If you pressed on the beake pedal it would be all friction braking.
Locomotives uses resistors blocks to do that ....the reason there are more
fans on top of a loco than there are
for the engine cooling and tuboblower(two stroke diesels need turbochargers
in order to work at all).Rail name is dynamic braking....Prius name is
regenerative braking.On a mountain pass goingdownhill, the engine goes dead
and the resistor bank is blowing about 4,000hp worth of heat.(about
10,177,700 btu/hr) into the air.(at max setting and long enorgh distance you
would
fry your manual air brakes, if you used them instead, like around Glacier
National Park.....for an example )
Your battery ,on the Pruis,would explode if the ECU didn't cut in because of
the charge rate and heat of pushing higher..
One of the limiting factors on battery performance in general.None of them
are as perfect as the ad guys would have you believe.
Battery life will be shorten by so much, that you run don't walk to the
dealer if that ECU fails to hold.
Part of the reason you will never see more than a small fraction of the
power from regenerative braking.....about 20% of the braking energy.
Without exploding the battery.....from excess current rush.
Pruis would have to go to a large resistor block to divert the excess and if
they used more regenerative energy to save the manual brake parts.
If so ,you can" Jake" yourself down to a stop and mainly use the manual
brakes to hold the vehicle.
Much of the electric uasage display on your dash is borrowed from a Dash 7 &
and up locomotive.
They even tell you how much power you are regenerating with the brakes.
>
>
> OK I'll bite what is slip control by your definition.
Rails are slicker than roads so starting with the first gas electric built
in the 20's.(General Electric loco)
The engine has slip sensor reading all the wheel to make sure they are
rolling at same speed.
Auto manufacturers call thier limited version traction control.
Locomotive's read fractions of a turn ,auto's read roughly rpm's of slip
difference.
Newer ones are also at the same time reading amps since a wheel in ice is
going to draw few
amps than a wheel on dryrail for a given rpm speed.
Mercedes is one of the few cars that adjusts in the fashion that a loco does
by appling brake on the
(on a car snow or mud hole wheel)spinning wheel to force the loaded wheel to
pull.
Locomotive automatically adjusts inter motor speed to keep all the wheels at
the same speed.
You also have sanders.....for traction as well,because of how slick steel
rails are.
Some are even automatic,since starting roll traction is the only time they
are needed, normally.
You wouldn't want run a sander more than needed ,even if you had unlimit
sand,because the sand eats the rails and the wheels.
In the course of giving it roughly the same traction as highway bed used by
cars and trucks.
Ever noticed how switch yard wear rails faster than main lines.
>
>
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| Daniel Who Wants to Know 2007-09-11, 3:25 am |
|
"Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1189108753_251@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>
> "Daniel Who Wants to Know" <danielthechskid@merrychristmasi.com> wrote in
> message news:5LKDi.70095$Xa3.3400@attbi_s22...
> Locomotives uses resistors blocks to do that ....the reason there are more
> fans on top of a loco than there are
> for the engine cooling and tuboblower(two stroke diesels need
> turbochargers in order to work at all).Rail name is dynamic
> braking....Prius name is regenerative braking.On a mountain pass
> goingdownhill, the engine goes dead
> and the resistor bank is blowing about 4,000hp worth of heat.(about
> 10,177,700 btu/hr) into the air.(at max setting and long enorgh distance
> you would
> fry your manual air brakes, if you used them instead, like around Glacier
> National Park.....for an example )
>
> Your battery ,on the Pruis,would explode if the ECU didn't cut in because
> of the charge rate and heat of pushing higher..
> One of the limiting factors on battery performance in general.None of them
> are as perfect as the ad guys would have you believe.
> Battery life will be shorten by so much, that you run don't walk to the
> dealer if that ECU fails to hold.
From what I have heard if it does fail the "triangle of death" shows up on
the MFD and the car either limps on just the engine or shuts down entirely.
> Part of the reason you will never see more than a small fraction of the
> power from regenerative braking.....about 20% of the braking energy.
Toyota claims 30%....
> Without exploding the battery.....from excess current rush.
> Pruis would have to go to a large resistor block to divert the excess and
> if they used more regenerative energy to save the manual brake parts.
> If so ,you can" Jake" yourself down to a stop and mainly use the manual
> brakes to hold the vehicle.
The "Jake Brake" on the Prius is "B" mode/gear and it forces the engine to
spin up to a higher RPM for more braking force. This mode is only useful
during the situation I mentioned where the battery fills up and you are
still going down a hill riding the brake pedal.
> Much of the electric uasage display on your dash is borrowed from a Dash 7
> & and up locomotive.
> They even tell you how much power you are regenerating with the brakes.
The Prius has little symbols on the consumption screen 5 minute segments
that each indicate 50WH of regenerated power.
> Rails are slicker than roads so starting with the first gas electric built
> in the 20's.(General Electric loco)
> The engine has slip sensor reading all the wheel to make sure they are
> rolling at same speed.
> Auto manufacturers call thier limited version traction control.
> Locomotive's read fractions of a turn ,auto's read roughly rpm's of slip
> difference.
> Newer ones are also at the same time reading amps since a wheel in ice is
> going to draw few
> amps than a wheel on dryrail for a given rpm speed.
> Mercedes is one of the few cars that adjusts in the fashion that a loco
> does by appling brake on the
> (on a car snow or mud hole wheel)spinning wheel to force the loaded wheel
> to pull.
> Locomotive automatically adjusts inter motor speed to keep all the wheels
> at the same speed.
> You also have sanders.....for traction as well,because of how slick steel
> rails are.
> Some are even automatic,since starting roll traction is the only time they
> are needed, normally.
> You wouldn't want run a sander more than needed ,even if you had unlimit
> sand,because the sand eats the rails and the wheels.
> In the course of giving it roughly the same traction as highway bed used
> by cars and trucks.
> Ever noticed how switch yard wear rails faster than main lines.
>
OK now I know what you are talking about. In the case of the Prius traction
control some have complained that it is too good and keeps the car from
moving at all in slick conditions.
At any rate we are way OT of the OP so I will try to make this my last post
in this thread.
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