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An Alberta bungalow
|
|
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-09-06, 9:25 am |
| A 1024 ft^2 house with a 640 ft^2 loft might look like this, in a fixed font:
| |
| bealiba@gmail.com 2007-09-07, 3:25 am |
| It really is a sad joke. Nick could really be right, BUT, only if the
house is not used for anything.
Ok Nick, using your wonderful house, add a family, say two adults,
three children (aged 7, 10, 17)
and a medium sized dog and a standard sized cat.
Two sixty watt lamps in each room for an average of 3 hours/day.
Oven in kitchen 2Hrs/day
Two TVs, 5 hours each
Play station 3 hrs/day
What the hell are you going to do with all this heat?
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-09-08, 9:25 am |
| I accidentally unkillfiled <bealiba@gmail.com>, who wrote:
>... add a family, say two adults, three children
.... 500Wx12h/day = 6 kWh/day
>and a medium sized dog and a standard sized cat.
+ 124Wx18h = 8.2 kWh for an ASHRAE-standard 50 lb dog and 6.61 lb cat
>Two sixty watt lamps in each room for an average of 3 hours/day.
+ 2 14W CFLs x 3h = 8.3 kWh
>Oven in kitchen 2Hrs/day
+ 1500 W toaster oven x 5 min = 8.4 kWh
>Two TVs, 5 hours each
+ 2 flat screens x 20W x 3h = 8.5 kWh
>Play station 3 hrs/day
+ 2 books x 0W = 0 Wh/day = 8.5 kWh, totaling 255 kWh/mo.
>What the hell are you going to do with all this heat?
That's less than the 300 kWh/mo assumed below :-)
>At an average 65 F indoors, we need 24h(65-14)104 = 127K Btu of heat.
>A frugal 300 kWh/mo of indoor electrical use could provide 34K of that,
And 255 would only provide 29K, leaving 98K Btu of heat from 480 ft^2
of $2/ft^2 Thermaglas Plus U0.58 twinwall polycarbonate "solar siding"
with 80% solar transmission...
If the siding supplies 98K Btu/day in 6 hours at an average temp T
and loses the rest of the heat to the outdoors and 0.8x480x751
= 288K Btu = 98K + 6h(T-14)480x0.58, T = 128 F.
If the house is 70 F for 12 hours per day and 60 for the other 12 and
sunspace air keeps it 70 F for 6 hours with 6h(70-14)104 = 35K Btu,
we need to store 98K - 35K = 63K Btu of "overnight heat."
...4000 Btu/F of inherent thermal mass could store 4K(70-60) = 40K Btu
of overnight heat, leaving 63K-40K = 23K Btu.
Let's warm 2 shiny 4'x8' platforms with 128 ft^2 of 2-sided surface hanging
below the ceiling with sunspace air to store 23K Btu. At 60 F, the house
needs 4784 Btu/h. With a 1.5 Btu/h-F-ft^2 slow-airfilm conductance,
60+4784/(128x1.5) = 85 F mass could keep the house 60 F.
Here's an equivalent circuit for the sunspace and platforms:
288K/6 = 48K Btu/h (35K+40K)/6h = 12.5K Btu/h
--- ---
|---|-->|------------------|-->|--- 70 F
--- | ---
|
1/480x0.58 = 1/278 | 1/(128x1.5) = 1/192 C Btu/F...
| ||
14 F ---www--------------------www----------------||---|
||
ie 1/114
-----www----- T
| |
| 142 F | C Btu/F
--- ---
- ---
| |
- -
>If C warms from 68 to T and stores 18K Btu in 6 hours, T = 68+18K/C
>= 142+(68-142)e^-(6/RC), so 18K/C = 74(1-e^-(6/RC)). RC = C/188, so
>C = 243/(1-e^-(1128/C)). Plugging in C = 250 Btu/F on the right makes
>C = 246 on the left, then 245 Btu/F, with T = 140 F. We might have 384 ft^2
>of 1/2" SIP OSB with 0.31x384 = 119 Btu/F plus (246-119)/0.5 = 127 ft^2
>of 1/2" drywall...
How could a meticulous solar consultant like George miss that mistake? :-)
If the platforms warm from 85 to T and store 23K Btu in 6h, T = 85+23K/C
= 142+(85-142)e^-(6/RC), so 23K/C = 57(1-e^-(6/RC)). RC = C/114, so
C = 404/(1-e^-(684/C)). Plugging in C = 500 Btu/F on the right makes
C = 542 on the left, then 564, 575, 581, and 584 Btu/F, with T = 124 F
and 292 pounds of water 2" deep in a poly film duct on each platform.
An automobile radiator in a vertical duct that returns air to the sunspace
without mixing with room air could make solar hot water and store it in
an unpressurized tank. On cloudy days, pump water up through the radiator
to warm the house. Make hot water for showers with a $60 1"x300' PE pipe
coil heat exchanger in the tank and a graywater heat exchanger.
At dawn with no internal heat gain, the house needs about (70-14)104 = 5824
Btu/h. An 800 Btu/h-F radiator could do this with 70+5824/800 = 77 F tank
water. We need 5x98K = 490K Btu for 5 cloudy days in a row. If the tank is
140 F on an average day, with the help of some Big Fins behind the twinwall,
we need 490K/(140-77) = 7.8K pounds of water, eg a 4'x8'x4'-tall plywood
tank lined with a single folded 12'x16' piece of EPDM rubber.
Nick
| |
| bealiba@gmail.com 2007-09-08, 9:25 am |
| On Sep 8, 6:31 pm, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> I accidentally unkillfiled <beal...@gmail.com>, who wrote:
>
>
> ... 500Wx12h/day = 6 kWh/day
>
>
> + 124Wx18h = 8.2 kWh for an ASHRAE-standard 50 lb dog and 6.61 lb cat
>
>
> + 2 14W CFLs x 3h = 8.3 kWh
>
>
> + 1500 W toaster oven x 5 min = 8.4 kWh
>
>
> + 2 flat screens x 20W x 3h = 8.5 kWh
>
>
> + 2 books x 0W = 0 Wh/day = 8.5 kWh, totaling 255 kWh/mo.
>
>
> That's less than the 300 kWh/mo assumed below :-)
>
No Nick, the question is "what about the heat".
Heat - noun: A form of energy that is transferred by a difference in
temperature.
Doors opening, movement of people and animals in and out of the house,
appliances being used, you know, all of the heat that you have not
included in your calculations. All the heat that is associated with an
occupied house.
An empty house is one thing, a house being lived in is another.
Show us the calculations for the energy use of an occupied house.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-09-09, 9:25 am |
| At an average 65 F indoors, we need 24h(65-14)104 = 127K Btu of heat.
If a frugal 300 kWh/mo of indoor electrical use provides 34K Btu and
a 4'x8'x4'-tall R30 140 F plywood heat storage tank in the house loses
24h(140-65)128ft^2/R30 = 8K, we need another 85K Btu of solar heat.
If the house is 70 F for 12 hours per day and 60 at "night" and sunspace
air keeps it 70 F for 6 hours with 6h(70-14)104 = 35K Btu, we might store
85K-35K = 50K Btu of "overnight heat" in 4000 Btu/F of inherent mass with
4K(70-60) = 40K Btu, and 50K-40K = 10K Btu in 384 ft^2 of shiny ceiling
mass C that cools from 80 to 60 F, with C = 10K/(80-60) = 500 Btu/F.
If sun arrives at a constant 48K Btu/h and we subtract 35K/6h = 5.8K
for sunspace air that warms the house, we can model the sunspace
itself like this, with air temp T, viewed in a fixed font:
42.2K Btu/h
--- 1/278
|---|-->|---------------- T -----------------------www--- T
--- | | 14+42.2K/278 = 166F
| - ---
1/480x0.58 = 1/278 | - -
| - |
14 F ---www------------- -
If RC = 4500/278 = 16.2 hours with lots of airflow, we can charge
the house and ceiling from 60 to 70 F in -16.2ln((70-166)/(60-166))
= 1.6 hours:
1/278
---------www----------------------- T 60->70 F
| 166 F | 4000 | 500
--- --- ---
- --- ---
| | |
- - -
With RC = 500/278 = 1.8 hours, we can charge the ceiling alone from
70 to 80 in another -1.8ln((80-166)/(70-166)) = 0.2 hours, leaving
4.2 hours like this
1/278 T = 147 1/800
-----------www--------------www-----
| 166 F I --> | 140
--- (166-140)/(1/278+1/800) ---
- = 5364 Btu/h -
| |
- -
with an 800 Btu/h-F auto radiator and fan at the top of a duct that returns
air to the sunspace without mixing with room air and stores 4.2I = 22.5K
Btu/day of 140 F water in the tank. Subtracting the 8K tank loss leaves
14.5K. With 60% greywater heat recovery, a pressurized $60 1"x300' PE pipe
coil in the tank could make 14.5K/(1-0.6) = 36K Btu/day of hot water.
We could do this more efficiently and simultaneously with Big Fins
in the sunspace, but that would cost more money.
Nick
| |
| bealiba@gmail.com 2007-09-09, 9:25 am |
| On Sep 9, 9:15 pm, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> At an average 65 F indoors, we need 24h(65-14)104 = 127K Btu of heat.
> If a frugal 300 kWh/mo of indoor electrical use provides 34K Btu and
> a 4'x8'x4'-tall R30 140 F plywood heat storage tank in the house loses
> 24h(140-65)128ft^2/R30 = 8K, we need another 85K Btu of solar heat.
>
> If the house is 70 F for 12 hours per day and 60 at "night" and sunspace
> air keeps it 70 F for 6 hours with 6h(70-14)104 = 35K Btu, we might store
> 85K-35K = 50K Btu of "overnight heat" in 4000 Btu/F of inherent mass with
> 4K(70-60) = 40K Btu, and 50K-40K = 10K Btu in 384 ft^2 of shiny ceiling
> mass C that cools from 80 to 60 F, with C = 10K/(80-60) = 500 Btu/F.
>
> If sun arrives at a constant 48K Btu/h and we subtract 35K/6h = 5.8K
> for sunspace air that warms the house, we can model the sunspace
> itself like this, with air temp T, viewed in a fixed font:
>
> 42.2K Btu/h
> --- 1/278
> |---|-->|---------------- T -----------------------www--- T
> --- | | 14+42.2K/278 = 166F
> | - ---
> 1/480x0.58 = 1/278 | - -
> | - |
> 14 F ---www------------- -
>
> If RC = 4500/278 = 16.2 hours with lots of airflow, we can charge
> the house and ceiling from 60 to 70 F in -16.2ln((70-166)/(60-166))
> = 1.6 hours:
>
> 1/278
> ---------www----------------------- T 60->70 F
> | 166 F | 4000 | 500
> --- --- ---
> - --- ---
> | | |
> - - -
>
> With RC = 500/278 = 1.8 hours, we can charge the ceiling alone from
> 70 to 80 in another -1.8ln((80-166)/(70-166)) = 0.2 hours, leaving
> 4.2 hours like this
>
> 1/278 T = 147 1/800
> -----------www--------------www-----
> | 166 F I --> | 140
> --- (166-140)/(1/278+1/800) ---
> - = 5364 Btu/h -
> | |
> - -
>
> with an 800 Btu/h-F auto radiator and fan at the top of a duct that returns
> air to the sunspace without mixing with room air and stores 4.2I = 22.5K
> Btu/day of 140 F water in the tank. Subtracting the 8K tank loss leaves
> 14.5K. With 60% greywater heat recovery, a pressurized $60 1"x300' PE pipe
> coil in the tank could make 14.5K/(1-0.6) = 36K Btu/day of hot water.
>
> We could do this more efficiently and simultaneously with Big Fins
> in the sunspace, but that would cost more money.
>
> Nick
Oh yes, now I see.
Nick Pines house;
Nick standing outside his house looking in the window when a fellow
walking down the street stops and says "Nice house".
Nick replies "Thank you, I put a lot of work into the design. The
temperature stays between 60 and 70 degrees all the time with very
little energy input from the grid or gas. It's a very good use of
passive solar."
"Gee, it must be cheap to run then."
"Oh yes, you would be surprised at how little it costs."
"Must be nice to live in."
"Oh, we don't live in it. We live in the garage. But the house is
cheap to run and when the weather is nice we sit out here on the lawn
and watch the TV through the window."
"What! You don't live in it? What the hell did you build it for then?"
"Well, we did try to live in it, but what with doors being opened and
closed with all the coming and going of the family, the running of
electrical appliances and the hot water and steam of showers, it
totally destroyed the balance of the solar input. It was either too
hot or too cold. So we moved into the garage."
"So why is the TV inside and not in the garage?"
"Oh, that's simple. The heat from the TV is just a bit of fine tuning
required to make the whole thing balance."
Out here in OZ we have a mandatory 5 Star Energy Rating for new homes.
They are all designed along the same lines as Nicks, to conserve
energy.
The funny part is, that while the house is vacant, it all works as per
spec. Just as soon as someone moves in the house sprouts an air
conditioner on the roof.
Hence my question to Nick about the heat involved with occupying a
house. A design that does not take into account the reason for
building the house in the first place, is no design at all.
The reason for building a house is for people to live in. If the
design does not take into account the impact of human use, well...
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-09-09, 1:25 pm |
| On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 12:34:17 -0000, bealiba@gmail.com wrote:
>On Sep 9, 9:15 pm, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
[color=darkred]
>The reason for building a house is for people to live in. If the
>design does not take into account the impact of human use, well...
Instead of wasting your life on these silly messertations*, why not
show Nick up by posting one of *your* designs? As I recall, you've
claimed to have "designed" a home that can stay cool in 115F
temperatures by liberal use of mass, AKA magic mass. When are we going
to see the calculations for that? When pigs fly I expect. Oh well, in
the meantime impatient readers can peruse some of your previous
theories here http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm and here
http://www.lowexpecations.com/.
(From Bill B. - *messertation: A type of long Usenet post originally
intended to be a dissertation by the author.)
Wayne
| |
| bealiba@gmail.com 2007-09-10, 8:25 pm |
| On Sep 10, 12:31 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 12:34:17 -0000, beal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Instead of wasting your life on these silly messertations*, why not
> show Nick up by posting one of *your* designs? As I recall, you've
> claimed to have "designed" a home that can stay cool in 115F
> temperatures by liberal use of mass, AKA magic mass. When are we going
> to see the calculations for that? When pigs fly I expect. Oh well, in
> the meantime impatient readers can peruse some of your previous
> theories herehttp://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htmand herehttp://www.lowexpecations.com/.
>
> (From Bill B. - *messertation: A type of long Usenet post originally
> intended to be a dissertation by the author.)
>
> Wayne
If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will
scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he
will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered
something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his
instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The
origin of myths is explained in this way.
- Bertrand Russell
This is how you, nick, steve and many others in these groups decide
what to believe. If it makes you feel good then it is truth.
You believe that you designed a system because it makes you feel good.
The reality is that you copied your system design, found it did not
meet your needs and kept throwing panels at it until it could, at
least during daylight hours.
Nick believes that he can design the perfect house. The reality is
that he has never done more than waste a lot of paper. He has never
done what he preaches.
Steve believes he has a 1000 watt wind generator that produces 1000
watts whenever it is turning. The reality is that he runs a wind/solar
assisted generator system.
And then, there is beemerwanker. He believes that he is a skilled
designer and builder of solar power systems. The reality is that he is
a ham fisted, ham actor, maladroit with all the tool using skils of a
dyslexic chimpanzee.
Now, you want to see my calculations. Interesting request, coming from
a guy that can't even provide such basic information as to how he
arrived at two days autonomy for his system.
If I told you how I designed my house so as not to require air
conditioning you would not be able to comprehend the process.
So I will tell you.
I took several thousand years of building design from many cultures,
added a bit of modern technology, and proceeded to design a house to
meet my needs.
In short, I made a very educated guess based on 40 years of personal
experience and built a house that does not require AC.
When I say that I designed my house, that is just what I did. I drew
the plans.
And when I say I built my house, I am not playing word games about
being the general contractor. I built the house. I was in charge of
every aspect of construction, I laid every stone. Poured all the
concrete. Did all the steel work. All the timber work. Plumbing and
electrical.
While you, well, you just hired a bunch of contractors and then tried
to claim the credit.
| |
| beemerwacker 2007-09-10, 8:25 pm |
| George on the other hand only criticizes everyone without offering
even the slightest information other than "I design correct systems"
which apparently is enough in the world that he lives in.
Good short "thesis" George. Good thing I didn't have to pee when I
read it or my chair would be wet. I love a good laugh.
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-09-11, 1:25 pm |
| On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:38:36 -0000, bealiba@gmail.com wrote:
>If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will
>scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he
>will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered
>something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his
>instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The
>origin of myths is explained in this way.
> - Bertrand Russell
Perhaps that's why you believe you're a "power consultant" despite all
the undeniable evidence that you're a nitwit. Samples here
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm
>If I told you how I designed my house so as not to require air
>conditioning you would not be able to comprehend the process.
Your problem is that I *do* comprehend your "process". I've known
quite a few BS artists, all of whom were smarter than you.
>So I will tell you.
>
>I took several thousand years of building design from many cultures,
>added a bit of modern technology, and proceeded to design a house to
>meet my needs.
>
>In short, I made a very educated guess
I see. So a "design" need not be based on numbers then? Too funny,
seems like I remember somebody singing a different tune now and
then...
Regardless, why not post your "guess"? A home that doesn't require AC
in 115F would be remarkable. So why not at least write out the average
daily temperature, the highs and lows, length of summer, and the
maximum interior temperature of this "design"? In plain English, how
does magic mass stay cool during a sizzling summer, yet need to be
heated in a mild winter? Why did you offer the details <snorf> of this
"guess" to Daestrom in a public forum, but then insist on a
non-disclosure agreement? I'm thinkin' that one answer would suit all
the questions - because the story is classic ghinius BS, exactly like
the 20 liters of fuel per week/fortnight nonsense.
> based on 40 years of personal experience
Is this the same 40 years of experience that enables you to declare a
single rheostat 150A, 200A, 150 ohms, and 8.5 ohms? Or do you have a
different 40 years of experience during which you were honest and
competent?
> and built a house that does not require AC.
I've heard the same claim from owners of single-wides in the desert.
"Does not require" is classic ghio-speak for "if I don't give them the
details then they won't be able to see through the story".
Wayne
| |
| bealiba@gmail.com 2007-09-12, 3:25 am |
| On Sep 12, 1:19 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:38:36 -0000, beal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Perhaps that's why you believe you're a "power consultant" despite all
> the undeniable evidence that you're a nitwit. Samples herehttp://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm
>
>
> Your problem is that I *do* comprehend your "process". I've known
> quite a few BS artists, all of whom were smarter than you.
You have just demonstrated otherwise. You have no understanding at
all.
>
>
>
>
> I see. So a "design" need not be based on numbers then? Too funny,
> seems like I remember somebody singing a different tune now and
> then...
My point made.
There is no formula for house design that takes into account human
impact on said design.
The formula for PV systems is based entirely on human use of the
design.
>
> Regardless, why not post your "guess"? A home that doesn't require AC
> in 115F would be remarkable. So why not at least write out the average
> daily temperature, the highs and lows, length of summer, and the
> maximum interior temperature of this "design"? In plain English, how
> does magic mass stay cool during a sizzling summer, yet need to be
> heated in a mild winter? Why did you offer the details <snorf> of this
> "guess" to Daestrom in a public forum, but then insist on a
> non-disclosure agreement? I'm thinkin' that one answer would suit all
> the questions - because the story is classic ghinius BS, exactly like
> the 20 liters of fuel per week/fortnight nonsense.
First of all get it right. Average, 20 liters of fuel per fortnight is
a fact. You don't like it, so what.
Second where are the numbers for your system, which by the way you
have been unable to supply from the first day I asked you all those
years ago.
>
>
> Is this the same 40 years of experience that enables you to declare a
> single rheostat 150A, 200A, 150 ohms, and 8.5 ohms? Or do you have a
> different 40 years of experience during which you were honest and
> competent?
rheostat 150 Amp 150 Ohms. I did not make this rheostat, nor did I
rate it.
>
>
> I've heard the same claim from owners of single-wides in the desert.
> "Does not require" is classic ghio-speak for "if I don't give them the
> details then they won't be able to see through the story".
Still no AC required.
Could be that 100+ tonnes of stone and concrete helps. Then there is
the fact of 4 metre ceilings, correct orientation, wide verandas which
keep the sun off the walls during summer months.
Minimal heating during winter when the temp can drop to -5c and no AC
during the summer with peaks of 45c.
These are facts. You don't like them? Stiff shit. You want the
numbers? Post those for your system.
You want my house to have AC. That doesn't change the fact that my
house does not require AC.
It's not hard to do. The Indians did it thousands of years ago. Bit
surprised that you failed to know this living in the south west.
The quote from Bertrand Russell describes you to a tee.
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-09-12, 1:25 pm |
| On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:20:19 -0000, bealiba@gmail.com wrote:
>On Sep 12, 1:19 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
[color=darkred]
>There is no formula for house design that takes into account human
>impact on said design.
>
>The formula for PV systems is based entirely on human use of the
>design.
I <heart> new theories! You're nothing if not predictable. But will
your post provide sufficient fresh material to justify a site update?
> Average, 20 liters of fuel per fortnight is
>a fact.
LOL OK, I've added that quote to the other contradictory BS fuel
numbers at http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm.
>
>rheostat 150 Amp 150 Ohms. I did not make this rheostat, nor did I
>rate it.
In fact, you *have* obviously rated it several different ways, each
funnier than the last. The job requires a maximum of about 25 ohms,
and you've claimed that the infamous rheostat's resistance is "too
low, further control is needed". On what planet is 150 "too low" if
you need 25, Mr. Power Consultant? Oh well, pasted in the latest
hilarious "clarification".
>That doesn't change the fact that my house does not require AC.
It seems that your bizarre reality cannot be changed by reason.
Wayne
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-09-12, 1:25 pm |
| An auto radiator in a vertical duct that returns air to the sunspace without
mixing with room air could heat water for an unpressurized tank on sunny days
and heat the house on cloudy days...
Nathan Hurst wrote: "It took me and my brother about 15 minutes to remove
one from a Mazda - just a bunch of plate screws and stud bolts then pop off
the hose, avoid the toxic green water and you're set." Does this take longer
in the dark? :-)
A radiator mechanic said '86-'96 Tauruses are easy, but Accords of any year
are easier, with 2 plastic posts that slide into holes beneath and 2 posts
that slide into holes in plates with 2 screws above. I just bought a '95
Mitsubishi 2.0 Eclipse radiator with its electric fans for $35. It looks
like an Accord. Butch from Reed's auto salvage near Lancaster, PA removed
it from a working car and guaranteed to replace it if it leaks. It's about
19"x28". The '83 and '87 Accords on his lot had metal vs plastic tanks which
might corrode galvanically, even with an ACI-100 0.5% sodium silicate
aluminum chemical corrosion inhibitor solutiton from D. W. Davies. (The LD50
for this solution is about 70 quarts, so the ICC would rate it safe for use
with a single wall heat exchanger, eg a $60 1"x300' 13-gallon pressurized
PE pipe coil in the 140 F tank to make hot water for showers.)
We might have something like this, conceptually, viewed in a fixed font:
up 2' up
---------------------------- -----------
| r s| | r|a |
| fa d| | o|.d room |
| d 2155A a| | o| .a air |
| <== ai room <== m| 2' | m| .m ==> | 2'
| a fan p| | f|30 .p |
| nt e| | a| .e |
| o r| s | n|degr?.r |
| r-----------| u | |-----------| west
| 4'? | n | | |
| | s | | |
| | p | 20' | |
| | a | | |
| | c | s | |
| | e | o | |
| | | u | |
a| |s | t | |
d| room sunspace |d | h | |
a| air air |a | | adamper |
m| <== ==> |m | | |
p| |p | | sdamper |
e| |e | | |
r| |r | | |
---------------------------- -----------
12'
room fan
---------------------------- Drawing not to scale.
s| r adamper s|s |
d| fa | d|d |
a| d v a|a |
m| <== ai <== m|m 4' | 12' south
p| a up p|p |
e| nt e|e |
r| o r|r |
---------r------------------
west
with 3 modes:
1. To heat the tank, pull sunspace air through the radiator with its fan
and push it back into the sunspace below. One-way lightweight plastic film
convection sdampers over vertical hardware cloth grates prevent reverse
thermosyphoning at night.
2. To heat the room, push air through the upper adamper and radiator with
a room fan and back into the room through a lower adamper near the bottom
of the vertical duct. The upper sdamper prevents room air from flowing
through the sunspace at night.
3. To do both, run both fans. It might be OK if the room fan (2470 cfm at
full speed with 90 watts) backdrafts the upper sdamper to prevent sunspace
airflow while it is running, although it seems better to avoid that.
Will the radiator fan draw room air in through the upper adamper and push
it out the lower adamper and heat the room in summertime? Lasko's $50 2155A
fan has 3 speeds and it's reversible, so we could run it backwards slowly
when the radiator fan runs to backdraft the adamper, or motorize it, but
it would be nice to avoid those complications.
If the radiator fan draws 1000 cfm through a 2'x4' sdamper orifice, one
chimney formula says 1000 cfm = 16.6x2'x4'Asqrt(HdT), so HdT = 57, eg
H = 7' and dT = 8.1 F, with dP = 7(1-(460+70)/(460+78.1)) = 0.105 psf,
or 0.63 lb for 6 ft^2, with an opening moment of 0.63 ft-lb for a hinge
at the top of a 3'-wide by 2'-tall rigid adamper.
Hem-Fir and Atlas Energy Shield double-foil-faced polyiso board weigh about
28 and 2 lb/ft^3, so a 2'x3' 2" foil-faced foamboard damper with a 2' flat
1.46 lb 2x3 along the top edge 2" away from the hinge would have a closing
moment of (2+0.75)/12x1.46lb = 0.33 ft-lb for the 2x3 + (6+1)/12x2lb = 1.17
for the foamboard, over twice the radiator fan's opening moment.
The room fan might push 2000 cfm with a 1/8" H20 static pressure (or more,
with the radiator fan helping), ie about 0.125/12x62.33 = 0.65 psf, or 3.9
pounds on a 6 ft^2 damper, with an opening moment of 3.9 ft-lb. Nobody's
measured a 2155A fan curve, but we might use Q = 60sqrt(2x32.174xAFt/rho)
cfm, where A is the air outlet area in ft^2, Ft is thrust in pounds, and
rho is the air density, about 0.075 lb/ft^3. We might attach the fan to
a 2' cardboard cube with a diagonal damper, hinged at the top, and hang it
from 2 long ropes and estimate thrust by the weight of the fan and the box
and its sideways deflection when the fan runs, and measure the pressure
difference with a $50 Magnehelic gauge. Or estimate Q with a pressure and
a sharp-edged orifice area, as in the chimney calc above.
For example, if the fan and box weigh 20 lb and the outlet area A = 2 ft^2
and the ceiling-outlet center distance is 7' (84") and we measure a 1.5"
horizontal deflection at the outlet center, Ft = 1.5x20/84 = 0.36 pounds,
and Q = 1757sqrt(2ft^2x0.36) = 1485 cfm.
I'll be talking about this at the PA Renewable Energy Festival on 9/22/07,
http://paenergyfest.com.
Nick
| |
| bealiba@gmail.com 2007-09-12, 8:25 pm |
| On Sep 13, 12:37 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:20:19 -0000, beal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> I <heart> new theories! You're nothing if not predictable. But will
> your post provide sufficient fresh material to justify a site update?
>
>
> LOL OK, I've added that quote to the other contradictory BS fuel
> numbers at http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm.
>
>
>
> In fact, you *have* obviously rated it several different ways, each
> funnier than the last. The job requires a maximum of about 25 ohms,
> and you've claimed that the infamous rheostat's resistance is "too
> low, further control is needed". On what planet is 150 "too low" if
> you need 25, Mr. Power Consultant? Oh well, pasted in the latest
> hilarious "clarification".
>
>
> It seems that your bizarre reality cannot be changed by reason.
>
> Wayne
There is no "Reason" in your post.
My house does not require AC to remain comfortable year round.
Your house requires AC because you designed it that way.
Both statements are true.
| |
| Bill B. 2007-09-12, 8:25 pm |
| > There is no "Reason" in your post.
>
> My house does not require AC to remain comfortable year round.
>
> Your house requires AC because you designed it that way.
>
> Both statements are true.
Well, I recommended to the staff that we have enough "reason" for
another outstanding George website update. This one was particularly
easy in as George managed to fall into a rather simplistic series of
traps set by several regular posters in this (among other) groups. The
group is working on chapter four of the "George Short Story". We also
have another "instant learning" class coming up: "Instant Eco-friendly
Home Building 101".
George has over 200 small cube refrigerators (which are technically
not air conditioners) that he powers using nothing more than surplus
solar calculators and several 150 amp rheostats to cool his home that
is an amazing duplication of Buckingham Palace built using
refrigerator boxes and flour soaked newspaper strips .
I also have it from locals that George managed to score several
thousand lead painted Chinese toys that he is using to line his
sunball (model III) for extra power, both Barbie "haunted house" sets
as well as "Thomas the Tank". As an aside, George got into an argument
with the Fed-Ex driver when he didn't believe that George actually has
a fork lift that is powered on nothing more than "septic methane".
Several cans of beans and six hours later, George was popping wheelies
on the fork lift, which punctured the fuel tank on the truck and
caused a minor environmental incident as well as spilling the porta
pottie mounted on the back of the thing for extra weight.
Bill B.
http://www.lowexpecations.com/
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2007-09-12, 9:25 pm |
| bealiba@gmail.com wrote:
....
> My house does not require AC to remain comfortable year round.
Sure, the house is comfortable but what about the people in it?
I'm reminded of a cartoon showing two guys in Hell with the
caption, "...but it's a dry heat."
Anthony
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-09-13, 9:25 am |
| >If sun arrives at a constant 48K Btu/h and we subtract 35K/6h = 5.8K
>for sunspace air that warms the house, we can model the sunspace
>itself like this, with air temp T, viewed in a fixed font:
>
> 42.2K Btu/h
> --- 1/278
> |---|-->|---------------- T -----------------------www--- T
> --- | | 14+42.2K/278 = 166F
> | - ---
> 1/480x0.58 = 1/278 | - -
> | - |
>14 F ---www------------- -
>
>1. If RC = 4500/278 = 16.2 hours with lots of airflow, we can charge
>the house and ceiling from 60 to 70 F in -16.2ln((70-166)/(60-166))
>= 1.6 hours:
>
> 1/278
> ---------www----------------------- T 60->70 F
> | 166 F | 4000 | 500
> --- --- ---Btu/F
> - --- ---
> | | |
> - - -
>
>2. With RC = 500/278 = 1.8 hours, we can charge the ceiling alone from
>70 to 80 in another -1.8ln((80-166)/(70-166)) = 0.2 hours, leaving
>4.2 hours like this
>
> 1/278 T = 147 1/800
> -----------www--------------www-----
> | 166 F I --> | 140
> --- (166-140)/(1/278+1/800) ---
> - = 5364 Btu/h -
> | |
> - -
>
>3. with an 800 Btu/h-F auto radiator and fan at the top of a duct that
>returns air to the sunspace without mixing with room air and stores
>4.2I = 22.5K Btu/day of 140 F water in the tank...
>
>We could do this more efficiently and simultaneously with Big Fins
>in the sunspace, but that would cost more money.
With constant weak sun at 48KBtu/h/480ft^2 inside the sunspace, 64 ft^2
of 140 F bare solar collectors or Big Fins would absorb 6400 Btu/h and
lose about (140-T)64x1.5 Btu/h, so we'd have something like this:
42.2K-6.4K = 35.8K Btu/h
--- 1/278
|---|-->|---------------- T -----------------------www--- T
--- | | 14+35.8K/278 = 143F
| - ---
1/480x0.58 = 1/278 | - -
| - |
14 F ---www------------- -
and this:
1/278 T 1/800
-----------www--------------www-----
| 143 F | | 140
--- w ---
- w 1/96 - radiator
| 6400 Btu/h w |
- --- | -
|--|-->|-------|
--- | 140
---
- collector
|
-
which is equivalent to this:
1/278 T = 141 1/896
-----------www----------------www-----
| 143 F I--> | 140
--- (143-140)/(1/278+1/800) ---
- = 589 Btu/h -
| |
- -
so the radiator and collector would gain 6400+589 = 6989 Btu/h, 30% more
than the radiator alone. But sun isn't constant. It might be 50% diffuse
in December, so we might heat water whenever the house needs are met and
the collector output is at least 140 F in the first two phases above,
as well as the third. This can also work well with poor collectors, eg
copper pipes banged into grooves in thin brown aluminum coil stock,
since their heat losses to sunspace air become radiator gains.
Engineer Nathan Hurst will talk about his Mazda radiator experiments in
Australia at the Pennsylvania Renewable Energy Festival on 9/22-23/07,
http://www.paenergyfest.com.
Nick
| |
| bealiba@gmail.com 2007-09-13, 9:25 am |
| On Sep 13, 12:45 pm, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> beal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> ...
>
>
> Sure, the house is comfortable but what about the people in it?
Well we're happy with the performance. And that is the test. What you
think is not important.
Your word games are, well, sad really.
>
> I'm reminded of a cartoon showing two guys in Hell with the
> caption, "...but it's a dry heat."
>
> Anthony
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-09-13, 9:25 am |
| On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:45:50 -0800, Anthony Matonak
<anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>bealiba@gmail.com wrote:
>...
>
>Sure, the house is comfortable but what about the people in it?
They too have everything they "require", except for water pressure, a
toaster.... hey, wait a minute! Aren't all the things the Ghinius
doesn't require, the very same items he couldn't power with his 1kWh
per day even if his life depended on it? What a coinkydink!
BTW, George is a propheshinel riter, not to mention editor,
screenwriter, pundit, poet, welder, hydraulic expert, power
consultant, teacher, swordsman, geostationary polar orbit wiz, baby
anticipater, and exultant deezyner of magic mass. So that apparent
grammar slip you mentioned couldn't possibly have been his fault. His
computer is surely infected with the dreaded Nitwit-C virus, which
targets incipient messertations and then utilizes artificial
intelligence to subtly change prose in order to make the author appear
to be a slow-witted 5th grader. Don't be fooled, George's talent is
undeniable! http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm
Wayne
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2007-09-13, 5:25 pm |
| bealiba@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 13, 12:45 pm, Anthony Matonak
> <anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Well we're happy with the performance. And that is the test. What you
> think is not important.
It's all a question of perspective, isn't it? The Sun contains some 99%+
of the mass of the solar system and yet I can blot it out with my thumb
at arms length. What I think is of ultimate importance, to me.
(This has also been demonstrated by "I'm crushing your head".)
You are attempting to hold up your home as a monument to your house
design and construction prowess. Clearly what I, or anyone reading
your post, think is of importance or you would not have written it. *
Clearly your happiness is entirely subjective and you have a conflict
of interest when judging your own handiwork. This makes the statement
effectively useless.
> Your word games are, well, sad really.
Well, I'm happy with their performance and that IS the test.
Anthony
--
For instance, what other people think about my leaping over medium
sized buildings in a single bound, driving beautiful cars and dating
fast women is of no importance to me. This is why I don't write
about these things.
| |
| bealiba@gmail.com 2007-09-13, 8:25 pm |
| On Sep 14, 6:26 am, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> beal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> It's all a question of perspective, isn't it? The Sun contains some 99%+
> of the mass of the solar system and yet I can blot it out with my thumb
> at arms length. What I think is of ultimate importance, to me.
See even you can learn. Important to you is not important to me.
>
> (This has also been demonstrated by "I'm crushing your head".)
>
> You are attempting to hold up your home as a monument to your house
> design and construction prowess. Clearly what I, or anyone reading
> your post, think is of importance or you would not have written it. *
Yeah. And it still does not need AC. Amerkins have come to regard AC
as a given in house design. Why?
Nick puts up a design. If built it would be odds on favorite that AC
would be added within the first year.
>
> Clearly your happiness is entirely subjective and you have a conflict
> of interest when judging your own handiwork. This makes the statement
> effectively useless.
Ah, you wish. The house still does not need AC to make it comfortable
to live in.
>
>
> Well, I'm happy with their performance and that IS the test.
Yes. That is sure obvious. Some people are easy to please.
>
> Anthony
> --
> For instance, what other people think about my leaping over medium
> sized buildings in a single bound, driving beautiful cars and dating
> fast women is of no importance to me. This is why I don't write
> about these things.
Ah, the Amerkin dream is alive and well.
| |
| wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net 2007-09-13, 8:25 pm |
| On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:26:20 -0800, Anthony Matonak
<anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>bealiba@gmail.com wrote:
>
>It's all a question of perspective, isn't it? The Sun contains some 99%+
>of the mass of the solar system and yet I can blot it out with my thumb
>at arms length. What I think is of ultimate importance, to me.
>
>(This has also been demonstrated by "I'm crushing your head".)
<chuckle> Now that you mention it, Ghio and Tyzik seem to share the
same frustration with the world. Add head-crushing to the list of
things that are more useful than ghinius posts.
Wayne
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2007-09-15, 1:25 pm |
| >>If sun arrives at a constant 48K Btu/h and we subtract 35K/6h = 5.8K
>
>With constant weak sun at 48KBtu/h/480ft^2 inside the sunspace, 64 ft^2
>of 140 F bare solar collectors or Big Fins would absorb 6400 Btu/h and
>gain about (140-T)64x1.5 Btu/h, so we'd have something like this:
>
> 42.2K-6.4K = 35.8K Btu/h
> --- 1/278
> |---|-->|---------------- T -----------------------www--- T
> --- | | 14+35.8K/278 = 143F
> | - ---
> 1/480x0.58 = 1/278 | - -
> | - |
>14 F ---www------------- -
>
>and this:
>
> 1/278 T 1/800
> -----------www--------------www-----
> | 143 F | | 140
> --- w ---
> - w 1/96 - radiator
> | 6400 Btu/h w |
> - --- | -
> |--|-->|-------|
> --- | 140
> ---
> - collector
> |
> -
>
>which is equivalent to this:
>
> 1/278 T = 141 1/896
> -----------www----------------www-----
> | 143 F I--> | 140
> --- (143-140)/(1/278+1/800) ---
> - = 589 Btu/h -
> | |
> - -
>
>so the radiator and collector would gain 6400+589 = 6989 Btu/h, 30% more
>than the radiator alone. But sun isn't constant. It might be 50% diffuse
>in December, so we might heat water whenever the house needs are met and
>the collector is warmer than the tank in the first two phases above,
>as well as the third. This can also work well with poor collectors, eg
>copper pipes pounded into grooves in thin brown aluminum coil stock,
>since their heat losses to sunspace air become radiator gains.
With 50% diffuse sun over 6 hours per day, we'd have 751Btu/ft^2/2 = 375
for 1.5 hours at 250 Btu/h-ft^2 and 375 for 4.5 at 83 Btu/h-ft^2, so
phase 1 in diffuse sun would become:
26.2K Btu/h
--- 1/278
|---|-->|---------------- T -----------------------www--- T
--- | | 14+26.2K/278 = 108F
| - ---
1/480x0.58 = 1/278 | - -
| - |
14 F ---www------------- -
With lots of airflow, we can charge the house and ceiling from 60 to 70 F
in -16.2ln((70-108)/(60-108)) = 3.8 hours and charge the ceiling from 70
to 80 in another -1.8ln((80-108)/(70-108)) = 0.5 hours, leaving phase 3
with 1.7 hours at an average 0.8x250x480x1.5/1.7 = 84.7K Btu/h, like this:
84.7K-11.3K-5.8K = 67.7K Btu/h
--- 1/278
|---|-->|---------------- T -----------------------www--- T
--- | | 14+67.7K/278 = 258F
| - ---
| - -
1/278 | - |
14 F ---www------------- -
and this:
1/278 T 1/800
-----------www--------------www-----
| 258 F | | 140
--- w ---
- w 1/96 - radiator
| 11.3K Btu/h w |
- --- | -
|--|-->|-------|
--- | 140
---
- collector
|
-
which is equivalent to this:
1/278 T = 175 1/896
-----------www----------------www-----
| 258 F I--> | 140
--- (258-140)/(1/278+1/800) ---
- = 24.2K Btu/h -
| |
- -
so the radiator and collector would gain (11.3K+24.2K)1.7h = 60K Btu/day,
doubling the 6989x4.2h = 29.4K gain in constant sun. We could refine this
with a simple simulation using an Energy Plus Alberta hourly weather data
file for a typical meteorological year.
Engineer Nathan Hurst (with his new PhD :-) will talk about his Mazda
radiator experiments in Australia at the Pennsylvania Renewable Energy
Festival on 9/22-23/07, http://www.paenergyfest.com.
Nick
|
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