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| Mike Ruskai 2007-09-15, 5:25 pm |
| I'm putting together a plan to run power to a new shed, and want to do
it properly.
Starting backwards, I have a 125A subpanel for the shed, in which I'll
put two 20A circuits for outlets (with one possibly going outside),
and one 15A circuit for lights.
The part of the shed where I'd bring the power in is about 70 feet
from the part of the house where power would go out. There's one
slight turn in that path, to avoid the driveway. From there, it's
another 55 feet to the main panel inside the house.
My plan is to run one length of 6/3 from a 40A or 50A double breaker
at the main panel to the subpanel, using buried PVC conduit for the
outside portion.
I've hunted up enough information to do all this mostly comfortably,
but I'd like a bit of confirmation on some questions:
1) Is 6 gauge wire sufficient for 40A over about 125 feet, a bit more
than half of which is in buried conduit? What about 50A?
2) How wide should the conduit be? This is the only wire that will
be inside, so beyond fitting the wire, the only concern is heat
dissipation.
3) How deep should the conduit be buried?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
| |
| Stuart 2007-09-15, 5:25 pm |
| There are many things in your question that will cause this group not to
reply exactly to your questions because we don't want to be contributing to
a future problem. Here are just a few more things to think about - where are
you located (top of hill?)relative to the frequency of lightening strikes?
What is the average and peak draw to the subpanel? Have you considered using
a 220 v cable to the subpanel? And if 220 v, will you be using four wire
cable or three wire cable and an additional ground rod? Is the shed enclosed
from rodents or open so you need to use 100% armored cable and metal boxes?
Why use conduit at all when you can use direct burial cable? And most
importantly are you in an area subject to building codes?
Stuart//
"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:dpaoe359vglvhq7omqd4g195bc4uhsea5u@4ax.com...
> I'm putting together a plan to run power to a new shed, and want to do
> it properly.
>
> Starting backwards, I have a 125A subpanel for the shed, in which I'll
> put two 20A circuits for outlets (with one possibly going outside),
> and one 15A circuit for lights.
>
> The part of the shed where I'd bring the power in is about 70 feet
> from the part of the house where power would go out. There's one
> slight turn in that path, to avoid the driveway. From there, it's
> another 55 feet to the main panel inside the house.
>
> My plan is to run one length of 6/3 from a 40A or 50A double breaker
> at the main panel to the subpanel, using buried PVC conduit for the
> outside portion.
>
> I've hunted up enough information to do all this mostly comfortably,
> but I'd like a bit of confirmation on some questions:
>
> 1) Is 6 gauge wire sufficient for 40A over about 125 feet, a bit more
> than half of which is in buried conduit? What about 50A?
>
> 2) How wide should the conduit be? This is the only wire that will
> be inside, so beyond fitting the wire, the only concern is heat
> dissipation.
>
> 3) How deep should the conduit be buried?
>
> Thanks in advance for any answers.
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-09-15, 5:25 pm |
| On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:58:03 -0400, "Stuart" <sarooney@mindspring.com>
wrote:
>There are many things in your question that will cause this group not to
>reply exactly to your questions because we don't want to be contributing to
>a future problem. Here are just a few more things to think about - where are
>you located (top of hill?)relative to the frequency of lightening strikes?
>What is the average and peak draw to the subpanel? Have you considered using
>a 220 v cable to the subpanel? And if 220 v, will you be using four wire
>cable or three wire cable and an additional ground rod? Is the shed enclosed
>from rodents or open so you need to use 100% armored cable and metal boxes?
>Why use conduit at all when you can use direct burial cable? And most
>importantly are you in an area subject to building codes?
Sure looks like he's running 220, or he would not be running 6/3 wire.
Which also answers the question if he is running 3 plus ground or 4.
6/3 will have red, white, black, and bare wires.
>
>Stuart//
>
>"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
>news:dpaoe359vglvhq7omqd4g195bc4uhsea5u@4ax.com...
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Solar Flare 2007-09-15, 5:25 pm |
| Check wire charts. dependant on the insulation type and style to
determine capacity (ampacity).
One tip: After you glue all your pipe together...put a damn pull
string in it righ away!. It will be full of grit and water and you may
not get it in later. With a string you can pull a better one in, a rag
through it etc..
"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:dpaoe359vglvhq7omqd4g195bc4uhsea5u@4ax.com...
> I'm putting together a plan to run power to a new shed, and want to
> do
> it properly.
>
> Starting backwards, I have a 125A subpanel for the shed, in which
> I'll
> put two 20A circuits for outlets (with one possibly going outside),
> and one 15A circuit for lights.
>
> The part of the shed where I'd bring the power in is about 70 feet
> from the part of the house where power would go out. There's one
> slight turn in that path, to avoid the driveway. From there, it's
> another 55 feet to the main panel inside the house.
>
> My plan is to run one length of 6/3 from a 40A or 50A double breaker
> at the main panel to the subpanel, using buried PVC conduit for the
> outside portion.
>
> I've hunted up enough information to do all this mostly comfortably,
> but I'd like a bit of confirmation on some questions:
>
> 1) Is 6 gauge wire sufficient for 40A over about 125 feet, a bit
> more
> than half of which is in buried conduit? What about 50A?
>
> 2) How wide should the conduit be? This is the only wire that will
> be inside, so beyond fitting the wire, the only concern is heat
> dissipation.
>
> 3) How deep should the conduit be buried?
>
> Thanks in advance for any answers.
| |
| Vaughn Simon 2007-09-15, 8:25 pm |
|
"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:dpaoe359vglvhq7omqd4g195bc4uhsea5u@4ax.com...
> 1) Is 6 gauge wire sufficient for 40A over about 125 feet, a bit more
> than half of which is in buried conduit? What about 50A?
Actually, #8 would satisfy the NEC, but the NEC does not address voltage
drop. #6 cable at 50 amps would give you about 5% voltage drop...good enough!
> 2) How wide should the conduit be? This is the only wire that will
> be inside, so beyond fitting the wire, the only concern is heat
> dissipation.
If I read the NEC tables properly, you can get 3- #6 THHN conductors in a
3/4" conduit, but DON'T TRY. I would not consider anything less than 1" and
would rather use 1-1/4" or even 1-1/2".
>
> 3) How deep should the conduit be buried?
I am not sure, it may depend on your local code and your frost line.
Free access to the NEC is here:
http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_document.asp
Someone else sugested that you just use direct bury cable rather than running
conduit. DONT! Ditches are expensive and a PITA, but conduit is cheap. That
conduit will protect your expensive cable from damage, and it will allow you to
repair things without digging up your yard again.
While you have that ditch open think ahead. What else will you want out in that
shed in the future? Water? Phone? Air? TV? Data? Gas? Now is the time to drop
in pipe for anything you may want in the future.
Vaughn
| |
| Mike Ruskai 2007-09-15, 8:25 pm |
| On or about Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:58:03 -0400 did "Stuart"
<sarooney@mindspring.com> dribble thusly:
>There are many things in your question that will cause this group not to
>reply exactly to your questions because we don't want to be contributing to
>a future problem.
Yes, certainly, *not* answering questions is the best way to avoid
contributing to problems.
>Here are just a few more things to think about - where are
>you located (top of hill?)relative to the frequency of lightening strikes?
Lightening only strikes when the second nearest neighbor turns on the
flood light over his garage.
My back yard is about 4 acres of woodland that's 30+ feet over the top
of both my house and shed, not counting the trees.
>What is the average and peak draw to the subpanel?
Right now, the average and peak draw are both 0, since I haven't wired
anything. Surely the fact that I intend to have two 20A circuits and
one 15A circuit, supplied by a 40A or 50A supply, indicates just what
I think the peak draw would be.
I wouldn't base any wiring decisions on average draw, but maybe I'm
just crazy.
>Have you considered using
>a 220 v cable to the subpanel? And if 220 v, will you be using four wire
>cable or three wire cable and an additional ground rod?
I'm beginning to wonder if you even read my post. What do you think
I've considered, given that I stated I'd be running 6/3 wire from a
double breaker?
>Is the shed enclosed
>from rodents or open so you need to use 100% armored cable and metal boxes?
The occasional mouse that gets into the basement doesn't go gnawing on
wires, so why would they do it in the shed, if they managed to get in?
Or are we talking about the possible infiltration of an R.O.U.S.?
>Why use conduit at all when you can use direct burial cable?
Because I glanced at the price of UF cable.
>And most
>importantly are you in an area subject to building codes?
No, I live in my own private country. I make all the rules, and I
asked the specific questions I did just to waste other people's time.
| |
| Mike Payne 2007-09-15, 9:25 pm |
| I did almost the exact same thing recently. Use bigger pvc conduit (2") it
will make pulling the wire through it easier. Use wire lube it also makes
pulling the wires easier. If you need more power later you won't need to
dig it all up if you use big conduit. Just pull bigger wires through it.
While you're at it you may want to run another smaller conduit in the same
trench for phone\internet\cable in case you want them later.
My understanding is that wire needs to be more than 18" deep or be in metal
conduit. I'm not a licensed electrician.
The bigger the wire you use the less the lights will dim when you turn on
the power saw. I went with 4 gauge THHN and an 8 gauge ground wire. You
can place a ground rod by the shed but it also has to be tied to the main
panel ground.
mike
"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote in message
news:5EZGi.99153$ax1.6109@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
> news:dpaoe359vglvhq7omqd4g195bc4uhsea5u@4ax.com...
>
> Actually, #8 would satisfy the NEC, but the NEC does not address
> voltage drop. #6 cable at 50 amps would give you about 5% voltage
> drop...good enough!
>
>
>
> If I read the NEC tables properly, you can get 3- #6 THHN conductors in
> a 3/4" conduit, but DON'T TRY. I would not consider anything less than 1"
> and would rather use 1-1/4" or even 1-1/2".
>
>
> I am not sure, it may depend on your local code and your frost line.
>
> Free access to the NEC is here:
> http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_document.asp
>
> Someone else sugested that you just use direct bury cable rather than
> running conduit. DONT! Ditches are expensive and a PITA, but conduit is
> cheap. That conduit will protect your expensive cable from damage, and it
> will allow you to repair things without digging up your yard again.
>
> While you have that ditch open think ahead. What else will you want out
> in that shed in the future? Water? Phone? Air? TV? Data? Gas? Now is the
> time to drop in pipe for anything you may want in the future.
>
> Vaughn
>
| |
| Neon John 2007-09-16, 3:25 am |
| On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:17:34 -0400, Mike Ruskai
<BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
>1) Is 6 gauge wire sufficient for 40A over about 125 feet, a bit more
>than half of which is in buried conduit? What about 50A?
It's code-compliant but I'd go up a wire size or two on a run that long so that you
won't have any problem with lights dimming or electronics being affected if you turn
on a large load (heater, air compressor, etc.) The marginal cost is small.
>
>2) How wide should the conduit be? This is the only wire that will
>be inside, so beyond fitting the wire, the only concern is heat
>dissipation.
I believe that the code is still max 55% fill. In this situation, by the time you
get the standard size of conduit large enough to make hand pulling practical over
that long a distance, you won't have to worry about fill level. Lacking a power
windlass and other professional pulling tools, you're going to want at least 2 pull
boxes over that run. Pulling anything longer than that by hand is quite difficult.
You'll find it a LOT easier to pull and probably cheaper to use 4 strands of THHN
stranded conductor rather than a cable. Cables usually have PVC outer coatings which
generate high friction against PVC conduit even in the presence of cable pulling
lube. In contrast, the THHN nylon outer covering is quite slick and usually doesn't
need lube. It's much more abrasion-resistant too. Important both during the pull
and afterward if the conduit cracks for some reason or if abrasives (sand, dirt,
small rock) somehow get inside the conduit.
>
>3) How deep should the conduit be buried?
I don't know what the code is anymore (you should be able to find code specs online
if that matters to you) but I always go below the frost line. If you don't go below
the frost line, heaves can push a rock into the conduit and over the years will wear
through. Assuming that you're going to rent a trencher, run it as deep as the
machine can easily go. That should get you below the frost line AND will get you
deep enough that when the next guy comes along and buries another run at the minimum
depth, he won't go deep enough to cut your conduit.
OK, your questions answered, I now ask, is there a severe budget crunch on this
project? If not, why not go up a few more wire sizes and wire for the sub-panel's
full capacity? You may not now see a need for 125 amp service but you never know
what the future may hold, neither for your nor the next owner.
I also echo the advice elsewhere in this thread to drop in another conduit for
internet/phone/low voltage whatever wiring. WiFi's neat and all that but wired
ethernet still moves the bits the fastest. You don't have to pull any wire in right
now but I would install a pull rope for future use. Even if you never use the
conduit, it's nice to have it there just in case.
While I'm at it, I also recommend dropping a hunk of 1/2" or 3/4" direct burial PVC
tubing for water service into the trench. Again, you might not need water in the
shed now but who knows what the future brings?
Couple of years ago I helped a friend build a metal building shop about 100 ft from
his house. He argued with me about running water out there and finally gave in and
laid in a water pipe. Swore he'd never use it. Then a funny thing happened. I gave
him an old ice machine from my restaurant. He works outside and was spending a
fortune filling his drink cooler every day with C-store ice. The ice machine needed
electricity and potable water, of course. Suddenly that water line in the shop
looked mighty fine! It's been tough but so far I've managed not to say "I told you
so". At least not to his face :-)
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
You have a magnetic personality... That must be why all your mental floppies are blank.
| |
| (PeteCresswell) 2007-09-16, 9:25 am |
| Per Mike Payne:
>While you're at it you may want to run another smaller conduit in the same
>trench for phone\internet\cable in case you want them later.
This from somebody who knows *nothing*: why separate conduits for
power/communications?
--
PeteCresswell
| |
| Solar Flare 2007-09-16, 1:25 pm |
| ...because people that can think do it properly.
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:mjaqe3pm52jlqhll4cqt4nlppm4p2b3lmu@4ax.com...
> Per Mike Payne:
>
> This from somebody who knows *nothing*: why separate conduits for
> power/communications?
> --
> PeteCresswell
| |
| Solar Flare 2007-09-16, 1:25 pm |
| Canada code requires deeper under driveways and roads. Frost doesn't
really matter but you should use a granular material around it for
sinkage and heave. The granular (sand and small gravel) drains better,
doesn't hold water for freezing ice (frost) and can filter around it
without pulling on it so hard.
"Mike Payne" <payne@gru.net> wrote in message
news:u80Hi.12463$f32.31@newsfe14.lga...
>I did almost the exact same thing recently. Use bigger pvc conduit
>(2") it will make pulling the wire through it easier. Use wire lube
>it also makes pulling the wires easier. If you need more power
>later you won't need to dig it all up if you use big conduit. Just
>pull bigger wires through it.
>
> While you're at it you may want to run another smaller conduit in
> the same trench for phone\internet\cable in case you want them
> later.
>
> My understanding is that wire needs to be more than 18" deep or be
> in metal conduit. I'm not a licensed electrician.
>
> The bigger the wire you use the less the lights will dim when you
> turn on the power saw. I went with 4 gauge THHN and an 8 gauge
> ground wire. You can place a ground rod by the shed but it also
> has to be tied to the main panel ground.
>
> mike
>
> "Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote in message
> news:5EZGi.99153$ax1.6109@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
| |
|
| In article <dpaoe359vglvhq7omqd4g195bc4uhsea5u@4ax.com>,
Mike Ruskai <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
> My plan is to run one length of 6/3 from a 40A or 50A double breaker
> at the main panel to the subpanel, using buried PVC conduit for the
> outside portion.
In article <o1hoe35ieubhs4666cjktk01ae3pim410b@4ax.com>,
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
> Sure looks like he's running 220, or he would not be running 6/3 wire.
> Which also answers the question if he is running 3 plus ground or 4.
> 6/3 will have red, white, black, and bare wires.
Since he is planning on using a "Double Breaker, in his Main Panel,
to feed the Sub-Panel in the "New Shed", most folks would "Assume"
that he would be feeding 240Vac SinglePhase thru the conduit, which
if PVC, would require 3 Ea. #6 Wires, plus a Ground.
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-09-16, 1:25 pm |
| On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:09:14 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid>
wrote:
>Per Mike Payne:
>
>This from somebody who knows *nothing*: why separate conduits for
>power/communications?
Code requirement. Can't tun high voltage and low voltage or high
voltage and data in the same conduit.
For noise reasons would not want to anyway.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
|
|
"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote
> While you have that ditch open think ahead. What else will you want out
> in that shed in the future? Water? Phone? Air? TV? Data? Gas? Now is the
> time to drop in pipe for anything you may want in the future.
Hell yes!!!! Put in everything you can think of NOW.
>
> Vaughn
>
| |
| Mike Ruskai 2007-09-19, 9:25 am |
| On or about Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:43:53 -0400 did clare at snyder.on.ca
dribble thusly:
>On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:09:14 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid>
>wrote:
>
>
>Code requirement. Can't tun high voltage and low voltage or high
>voltage and data in the same conduit.
>
>For noise reasons would not want to anyway.
I just get a kick out of the idea that someone thinks I might actually
want to run cable TV, internet, etc. to a *shed*. This where the lawn
tractor, snow blower, and garden tools will be kept.
| |
| Mike Ruskai 2007-09-19, 9:25 am |
| On or about Sun, 16 Sep 2007 04:06:00 -0400 did Neon John
<no@never.com> dribble thusly:
>You'll find it a LOT easier to pull and probably cheaper to use 4 strands of THHN
>stranded conductor rather than a cable. Cables usually have PVC outer coatings which
>generate high friction against PVC conduit even in the presence of cable pulling
>lube. In contrast, the THHN nylon outer covering is quite slick and usually doesn't
>need lube. It's much more abrasion-resistant too. Important both during the pull
>and afterward if the conduit cracks for some reason or if abrasives (sand, dirt,
>small rock) somehow get inside the conduit.
That sounds like a good bit of advice, though I imagine I'd want to
junction them to a cable just before they leave the house.
>OK, your questions answered, I now ask, is there a severe budget crunch on this
>project? If not, why not go up a few more wire sizes and wire for the sub-panel's
>full capacity? You may not now see a need for 125 amp service but you never know
>what the future may hold, neither for your nor the next owner.
At this point, I'm considering using the 125A panel in the house, and
finding a smaller one for the shed. I only bought that because it was
the smallest box at the store that looked functional (and even that
was sort of misleading - turns out the ground bar isn't included, and
is a separate purchase).
This isn't a workshop we're talking about here. It's a 12x24 storage
shed, and it's entirely possible the outlets will never be used for
anything but using the electric starter on the snow blower.
>While I'm at it, I also recommend dropping a hunk of 1/2" or 3/4" direct burial PVC
>tubing for water service into the trench. Again, you might not need water in the
>shed now but who knows what the future brings?
>
>Couple of years ago I helped a friend build a metal building shop about 100 ft from
>his house. He argued with me about running water out there and finally gave in and
>laid in a water pipe. Swore he'd never use it. Then a funny thing happened. I gave
>him an old ice machine from my restaurant. He works outside and was spending a
>fortune filling his drink cooler every day with C-store ice. The ice machine needed
>electricity and potable water, of course. Suddenly that water line in the shop
>looked mighty fine! It's been tough but so far I've managed not to say "I told you
>so". At least not to his face :-)
Water is something to think about. I rather like the idea of a
utility sink, and running a couple extra pipes (for feed and drain)
while there's a big trench is only reasonable.
Anything else is just too ridiculous to consider at this point. If,
at some distance future remove, someone has a need for internet access
in the storage shed (does the new mower have upgradeable firmware?),
wireless tech will be more than up to the task.
Thanks for the answers.
| |
| Vaughn Simon 2007-09-19, 9:25 am |
|
"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:hto1f3d2ke5de3rjc0mi2kairq4pmms8i3@4ax.com...
> I just get a kick out of the idea that someone thinks I might actually
> want to run cable TV, internet, etc. to a *shed*.
(shrug) I have both ran to mine, though there has never been a telephone, a
computer, or a TV out there.
One cat-5 cable handles the remote start-stop controls for my emergency
generator, with plenty of conductors left over for a future burglar alarm (or
whatever). The TV coaxial cable is actually the first half of my future
underground CATV service cable since the shed is halfway to my back property
line. I was just trying to get you to think ahead and think "out of the box" a
bit. Do whatever you want.
Vaughn
| |
|
| "Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:hto1f3d2ke5de3rjc0mi2kairq4pmms8i3@4ax.com...
> On or about Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:43:53 -0400 did clare at snyder.on.ca
> dribble thusly:
>
>
> I just get a kick out of the idea that someone thinks I might actually
> want to run cable TV, internet, etc. to a *shed*. This where the lawn
> tractor, snow blower, and garden tools will be kept.
One mans shed is another mans escape from the pressures of everyday
life, screaming kids, ringing phones etc. My previous "shed" was 40' long.
Now I have a huge 2 car basement garage so I don't even have to leave the
house, since the previous owners closed it off and built one at ground
level. It is 28x24.
| |
| David Williams 2007-09-19, 5:25 pm |
| -> One mans shed is another mans escape from the pressures of everyday
-> life, screaming kids, ringing phones etc. My previous "shed" was 40' long.
-> Now I have a huge 2 car basement garage so I don't even have to leave the
-> house, since the previous owners closed it off and built one at ground
-> level. It is 28x24.
Around here, we're allowed to put up sheds less than 100 sq.ft. (or the
metric equicalent nowadays) without planning permission, so a lot of
kits are sold with dimensions like 12 x 8 or 9 x 11 feet. Mine is 8 x
12. And, yes, it has AC power and telephone. My ex-wife used to use it
as a painting studio.
dow
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-09-19, 9:25 pm |
| On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:55:16 -0400, Mike Ruskai
<BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
>On or about Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:43:53 -0400 did clare at snyder.on.ca
>dribble thusly:
>
>
>I just get a kick out of the idea that someone thinks I might actually
>want to run cable TV, internet, etc. to a *shed*. This where the lawn
>tractor, snow blower, and garden tools will be kept.
A lot of guys have the lathe etc in a "shed". Some guys rebuild cars
or build airplanes in a "shed"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-09-19, 9:25 pm |
| On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:04:56 -0500, david.XXXXXXXX@bayman.org (David
XXXXXXXX) wrote:
>-> One mans shed is another mans escape from the pressures of everyday
>-> life, screaming kids, ringing phones etc. My previous "shed" was 40' long.
>-> Now I have a huge 2 car basement garage so I don't even have to leave the
>-> house, since the previous owners closed it off and built one at ground
>-> level. It is 28x24.
>
>Around here, we're allowed to put up sheds less than 100 sq.ft. (or the
>metric equicalent nowadays) without planning permission, so a lot of
>kits are sold with dimensions like 12 x 8 or 9 x 11 feet. Mine is 8 x
>12. And, yes, it has AC power and telephone. My ex-wife used to use it
>as a painting studio.
>
> dow
Same rules here. Mine is 10X 10 at ground level, but the roof is
15X15. Built it that way to hang a 15 foot canoe under cover at the
one end and to have a cover over the front door. The "attic" hes about
10X15 useable space to store off season tires, spare parts for
different projects, an antique lawn mower etc. I put a "loft door" at
the one end so I COULD, if necessary store the wings of our plane up
there. No power in it right now except a "solar shed light" which is
an LED light with Nimh batteries and a small solar array to charge
them.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Tim Neumann 2007-09-20, 3:25 am |
|
"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:35p1f3p2i7h1t5qlm0gak7ukeof637hb43@4ax.com...
> On or about Sun, 16 Sep 2007 04:06:00 -0400 did Neon John
> <no@never.com> dribble thusly:
>
of THHN[color=darkred]
coatings which[color=darkred]
pulling[color=darkred]
usually doesn't[color=darkred]
the pull[color=darkred]
(sand, dirt,[color=darkred]
>
> That sounds like a good bit of advice, though I imagine I'd want to
> junction them to a cable just before they leave the house.
>
on this[color=darkred]
sub-panel's[color=darkred]
never know[color=darkred]
>
> At this point, I'm considering using the 125A panel in the house, and
> finding a smaller one for the shed. I only bought that because it was
> the smallest box at the store that looked functional (and even that
> was sort of misleading - turns out the ground bar isn't included, and
> is a separate purchase).
>
> This isn't a workshop we're talking about here. It's a 12x24 storage
> shed, and it's entirely possible the outlets will never be used for
> anything but using the electric starter on the snow blower.
>
burial PVC[color=darkred]
water in the[color=darkred]
100 ft from[color=darkred]
gave in and[color=darkred]
happened. I gave[color=darkred]
spending a[color=darkred]
machine needed[color=darkred]
the shop[color=darkred]
"I told you[color=darkred]
>
> Water is something to think about. I rather like the idea of a
> utility sink, and running a couple extra pipes (for feed and drain)
> while there's a big trench is only reasonable.
>
> Anything else is just too ridiculous to consider at this point. If,
> at some distance future remove, someone has a need for internet access
> in the storage shed (does the new mower have upgradeable firmware?),
> wireless tech will be more than up to the task.
>
> Thanks for the answers.
Actually, it's not ridiculous at all, but mostly speaking from experience.
Several years ago the GM plant I was working at put in a new phone system
that required completely rewiring the entire plant. I got to know the guys
pulling the wire pretty well when they were working in the computer room
where they were terminating all the new trunks. They told me that they
routinely pull TWICE the trunk capacity they currently need in order to have
enough pairs for future expansion - and hope that that will be enough so
that they won't have to go in and pull more wire for at least FIVE years.
BTW, the reason they had to completely repull the entire plant was that the
new phone system was digital, using three pairs, instead of analog, which
needed only one pair. Also, the old wiring was not digital compatable for
technical reasons.
So, an extra empty conduit or two is a small incremental expense compared to
the total expense of trenching, putting in the needed conduit, current
wiring, etc. Maybe a couple years from now the shed roof will be the ideal
location for a new dish for some service that hasn't been identified yet.
| |
| Neon John 2007-09-20, 3:25 am |
| On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:55:16 -0400, Mike Ruskai
<BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
>I just get a kick out of the idea that someone thinks I might actually
>want to run cable TV, internet, etc. to a *shed*. This where the lawn
>tractor, snow blower, and garden tools will be kept.
Strange as it may seem, a lot of folks call their outbuildings/shops "sheds". My
"shed" had yard crap stored in it but it also had a bench on one end and a lounge
chair where I could go to relax and get away from EVERYONE. I didn't need an
ethernet cable because it was still Arpanet and dumb terminals didn't have RJ45 jacks
but a phone would have been nice.
Your description of installing a sub-panel and 125 amp service certainly made me
think that this "shed" was intended to do more than just store garden junk. If all
you need is a light and a power outlet then toss some 12/2 with ground romex in a
slit trench (don't worry about direct burial - romex lasts for years), attach it to a
20 amp breaker in your main panel and forget about it. No need for a sub-panel.
You know, it's kinda smarmy to ask a poorly stated question and then make fun of the
answers because people couldn't read your mind to figure out what you really meant. I
won't be wasting my time answering any more of your questions.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I love cats ... they taste just like chicken.
| |
| (PeteCresswell) 2007-09-20, 9:25 am |
| Per Tim Neumann:
>ing in the computer room
>where they were terminating all the new trunks. They told me that they
>routinely pull TWICE the trunk capacity they currently need in order to have
>enough pairs for future expansion - and hope that that will be enough so
This may sound a little crazy - but it's the reaction of somebody
who routinely tries to think of every possibility, adds 20% to
that.... and then doubles it.... only to find out that they
barely made it within budget.
If a trench is going to be dug (presumably using some sort of
machine) why not make it big enough for, say, 5" pipe and lay
that - placing a sub-conduit for 110v AC inside of it?" Seems
like that would provide, at a fairly small incremental cost,
future ability to pull just about anything with minimal effort.
--
PeteCresswell
| |
|
|
<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:lhq2f35hilivknbubnoh7ok665b9rv6fbk@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:55:16 -0400, Mike Ruskai
> <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
>
> A lot of guys have the lathe etc in a "shed". Some guys rebuild cars
> or build airplanes in a "shed"
Pretty good for a girl! <eg>
The only difference between men and boys.....
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
| |
|
|
"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:g244f3pdgpjqjnba6t80d9e27d3a5jq0lu@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:55:16 -0400, Mike Ruskai
> <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
>
>
> Strange as it may seem, a lot of folks call their outbuildings/shops
> "sheds". My
> "shed" had yard crap stored in it but it also had a bench on one end and a
> lounge
> chair where I could go to relax and get away from EVERYONE. I didn't need
> an
> ethernet cable because it was still Arpanet and dumb terminals didn't have
> RJ45 jacks
> but a phone would have been nice.
>
> Your description of installing a sub-panel and 125 amp service certainly
> made me
> think that this "shed" was intended to do more than just store garden
> junk.
BINGO! I've lived in places w/a family of 5 that didn't have that much
power run to them. 60A @ 240V was it.
If all
> you need is a light and a power outlet then toss some 12/2 with ground
> romex in a
> slit trench (don't worry about direct burial - romex lasts for years),
> attach it to a
> 20 amp breaker in your main panel and forget about it. No need for a
> sub-panel.
>
> You know, it's kinda smarmy to ask a poorly stated question and then make
> fun of the
> answers because people couldn't read your mind to figure out what you
> really meant. I
> won't be wasting my time answering any more of your questions.
That's what I like about you John, just the right mix of helpfulness and
crabbiness mixed together. :-) Yer a hoot!
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> I love cats ... they taste just like chicken.
>
| |
|
| On Sep 15, 1:17 pm, Mike Ruskai
<BUTthann...@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
> I'm putting together a plan to run power to a new shed, and want to do
> it properly.
>
> Starting backwards, I have a 125A subpanel for the shed, in which I'll
> put two 20A circuits for outlets (with one possibly going outside),
> and one 15A circuit for lights.
>
> The part of the shed where I'd bring the power in is about 70 feet
> from the part of the house where power would go out. There's one
> slight turn in that path, to avoid the driveway. From there, it's
> another 55 feet to the main panel inside the house.
>
> My plan is to run one length of 6/3 from a 40A or 50A double breaker
> at the main panel to the subpanel, using buried PVC conduit for the
> outside portion.
>
> I've hunted up enough information to do all this mostly comfortably,
> but I'd like a bit of confirmation on some questions:
>
> 1) Is 6 gauge wire sufficient for 40A over about 125 feet, a bit more
> than half of which is in buried conduit? What about 50A?
>
> 2) How wide should the conduit be? This is the only wire that will
> be inside, so beyond fitting the wire, the only concern is heat
> dissipation.
>
> 3) How deep should the conduit be buried?
>
> Thanks in advance for any answers.
Just off hand I would use at least a 50-A double breaker with the 6/3
cable with a very large subpanel to allow for expansion later.
One mistake I made while doing essentially the same thing was failure
to add a water line out to the shed that could be used for a swamp
cooler. I suppose you could also consider adding a gas line that could
be used for a furnace or an electric generator. I'm not sure if there
are any rules, though, about putting everything in the same trench.
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-09-20, 9:25 pm |
| On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:15:46 -0500, "Jim" <jim@home.con> wrote:
>
><clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
>news:lhq2f35hilivknbubnoh7ok665b9rv6fbk@4ax.com...
>
> Pretty good for a girl! <eg>
> The only difference between men and boys.....
>
>
Who you calling a girl???? Clare - short for Clarence.
6'2", 200 lbs
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| clare at snyder.on.ca 2007-09-20, 9:25 pm |
| On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:32:18 -0500, "Jim" <jim@home.con> wrote:
>
>"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
>news:g244f3pdgpjqjnba6t80d9e27d3a5jq0lu@4ax.com...
>
> BINGO! I've lived in places w/a family of 5 that didn't have that much
>power run to them. 60A @ 240V was it.
>
I've LIVED in places with a lot less than that!!!
65 watts of solar at 12 volts, with an 1850 TruSine on 4 200Ah deep
cycles.
And the first house my Dad bought back in '57 had 50 amps 110 volts
only. That didn't last long, as he was an electrician.
>
> If all
>
> That's what I like about you John, just the right mix of helpfulness and
>crabbiness mixed together. :-) Yer a hoot!
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Mike Ruskai 2007-09-21, 3:25 am |
| On or about Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:28:50 -0400 did Neon John
<no@never.com> dribble thusly:
>You know, it's kinda smarmy to ask a poorly stated question and then make fun of the
>answers because people couldn't read your mind to figure out what you really meant. I
>won't be wasting my time answering any more of your questions.
I asked several small, specific questions. I was not vague about
anything relevant to my needs. All the suggestions for running extra
conduit for TV, internet, and whatever else were unsolicited, and I
don't feel bad about being amused by them.
If unfounded accusations of smarminess and vagueness are all you have
to offer, beyond the ridiculous suggestion to just run a length of
12/2, I won't be disappointed if you don't respond to any future
inquiries.
| |
| Neon John 2007-09-21, 9:25 am |
| On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:15:57 -0400, Mike Ruskai
<BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
>On or about Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:28:50 -0400 did Neon John
><no@never.com> dribble thusly:
>
>
>I asked several small, specific questions. I was not vague about
>anything relevant to my needs. All the suggestions for running extra
>conduit for TV, internet, and whatever else were unsolicited, and I
>don't feel bad about being amused by them.
I, at least, answered your specific questions before making additional suggestions.
Those suggestions came from those of us who have BTDT, both for ourselves and
customers. Few folks look past the ends of their noses when planning stuff like this
and many appreciate such "I never thought of that" suggestions. If you didn't like
the suggestions, the best thing you could have done was to STFU and ignore them.
>
>If unfounded accusations of smarminess and vagueness are all you have
>to offer, beyond the ridiculous suggestion to just run a length of
>12/2, I won't be disappointed if you don't respond to any future
>inquiries.
Careful, there, your ignorance is showing again. There's a hunk of about 200 ft of
10/2 w/ground romex running to my well pump that's been in the ground since, oh, 1972
or thereabouts. Just one example. It may be "ridiculous" but it works. I imagine
that I won't be the only one who doesn't respond in the future to a smart-mouthed
dumb-XXX like yourself.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
What do you call a blonde's cranial cavity? Vacuum chamber?
| |
| Vaughn Simon 2007-09-21, 5:25 pm |
|
"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:hgd6f3dkvf95bvu73ul74ohqnqnqtc8ig6@4ax.com...
> If unfounded accusations of smarminess and vagueness...
Unfounded?
Vaughn
| |
| Solar Flare 2007-09-23, 1:25 pm |
| Needs a service tunnel so future enhancemenets can be walked through
with a small machine.
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:5kp4f3p5vnfijhel7k7fk16sigt0tn7l1e@4ax.com...
> Per Tim Neumann:
>
> This may sound a little crazy - but it's the reaction of somebody
> who routinely tries to think of every possibility, adds 20% to
> that.... and then doubles it.... only to find out that they
> barely made it within budget.
>
> If a trench is going to be dug (presumably using some sort of
> machine) why not make it big enough for, say, 5" pipe and lay
> that - placing a sub-conduit for 110v AC inside of it?" Seems
> like that would provide, at a fairly small incremental cost,
> future ability to pull just about anything with minimal effort.
> --
> PeteCresswell
| |
|
|
<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:ja86f31vokv61m7at2pr9s5tn9q9vpu7lh@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:15:46 -0500, "Jim" <jim@home.con> wrote:
>
> Who you calling a girl???? Clare - short for Clarence.
> 6'2", 200 lbs
Sorry about that! Good day, eh!?
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
| |
|
|
"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote in message
news:efXIi.581293$p47.484879@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
> news:hgd6f3dkvf95bvu73ul74ohqnqnqtc8ig6@4ax.com...
>
> Unfounded?
Don't you guys know about the KF?
> Vaughn
>
| |
| Vaughn Simon 2007-09-23, 5:25 pm |
|
"Jim" <jim@home.con> wrote in message
news:IszJi.162$yc5.47@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> Don't you guys know about the KF?
Yes, and I am not ashamed to use it liberally.
Vaughn
|
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