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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > March 2008 > Propane & Natural Gas: Interchangable?
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Propane & Natural Gas: Interchangable?
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| (PeteCresswell) 2008-03-11, 8:25 pm |
| If an engine will run on propane, will it run on natural gas
without modification?
"Natural Gas" = the stuff they pipe into people's houses
underground from a central distribution point.
Pressure considerations?
--
PeteCresswell
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| Vaughn Simon 2008-03-11, 8:25 pm |
|
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:ui6et3d9j3pukgk72gmj00khkeiirjaqvk@4ax.com...
> If an engine will run on propane, will it run on natural gas
> without modification?
>
My Onan generator happily runs off of either fuel. I only need to make a
slight mixture adjustment for most efficient operation. It requires the same
fuel pressure for either fuel, though it naturally takes different regulators to
supply that pressure. By the way, the pressures involved are very low. If I
remember correctly, it only takes 11" water column (less than 1 PSI).
Vaughn
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| (PeteCresswell) 2008-03-12, 1:25 pm |
| Per Vaughn Simon:
> My Onan generator happily runs off of either fuel. I only need to make a
>slight mixture adjustment for most efficient operation. It requires the same
>fuel pressure for either fuel, though it naturally takes different regulators to
>supply that pressure. By the way, the pressures involved are very low. If I
>remember correctly, it only takes 11" water column (less than 1 PSI).
I've got my little EU2000 and about 200 feet of heavy-duty
extension cords.... and that certainly fills the bill of what I
wanted a generator to accomplish.
But the more I read, the more I think that for anything larger
the only sensible route for somebody who has natural gas piped
into their property and doesn't need to run the gennie at other
locations... and doesn't anticipate earthquakes... is a natural
gas installation.
Bolt the gennie to a poured concrete pad somewhere in the yard
far enough from the house to avoid exhaust fume issues, put a
little dog house over the gennie (or maybe build a garden shed
around it), run the gas to the gennie, run an electrical cable
from the gennie to a cutover panel in the house.
To wit:
--------------------------------------------------------------
- No worries about "feeding the beast" when gas stations may
be shut down due to the same power outage you're using
the generator for.
- No fuel storage issues.
- Cheaper per-hour running given no road-fuel taxes on nat gas
- No issues with going outside in the dark in freezing rain
to refuel.
- Greatly-reduced theft issues if the thing is bolted to the
pad thoroughly enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Am I missing anything in this judgment?
--
PeteCresswell
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| Ulysses 2008-03-12, 5:25 pm |
|
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:1v3gt39era9gifu0jshhu4j4uublq1dd32@4ax.com...
> Per Vaughn Simon:
a[color=darkred]
same[color=darkred]
regulators to[color=darkred]
If I[color=darkred]
>
> I've got my little EU2000 and about 200 feet of heavy-duty
> extension cords.... and that certainly fills the bill of what I
> wanted a generator to accomplish.
>
>
> But the more I read, the more I think that for anything larger
> the only sensible route for somebody who has natural gas piped
> into their property and doesn't need to run the gennie at other
> locations... and doesn't anticipate earthquakes... is a natural
> gas installation.
>
> Bolt the gennie to a poured concrete pad somewhere in the yard
> far enough from the house to avoid exhaust fume issues, put a
> little dog house over the gennie (or maybe build a garden shed
> around it), run the gas to the gennie, run an electrical cable
> from the gennie to a cutover panel in the house.
You need to get enough fresh air to it or it will suffocate. Maybe a small
fan forcing air in will help. I've seen some "mighty-fine" shed designs
around generators that ended up with a bunch of vent holes cut into them and
eventually the genny ended up outside.
>
>
> To wit:
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> - No worries about "feeding the beast" when gas stations may
> be shut down due to the same power outage you're using
> the generator for.
You mentioned earthquakes so better make sure you don't have one of those
gadgets that shuts off the gas when it shakes.
>
> - No fuel storage issues.
>
> - Cheaper per-hour running given no road-fuel taxes on nat gas
>
> - No issues with going outside in the dark in freezing rain
> to refuel.
>
> - Greatly-reduced theft issues if the thing is bolted to the
> pad thoroughly enough.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Am I missing anything in this judgment?
> --
> PeteCresswell
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| "Ulysses" <eatmyspam@spamola.com/> wrote in
news:13tgaodhl6hd94c@corp.supernews.com:
>
> "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
> news:1v3gt39era9gifu0jshhu4j4uublq1dd32@4ax.com...
> a
> same
> regulators to
> If I
>
> You need to get enough fresh air to it or it will suffocate. Maybe a
> small fan forcing air in will help. I've seen some "mighty-fine" shed
> designs around generators that ended up with a bunch of vent holes cut
> into them and eventually the genny ended up outside.
my buddy built one with fatmat auto sound insulation and he cut a hole
with a small electric fan that ran off the gen. Its super quiet
>
>
> You mentioned earthquakes so better make sure you don't have one of
> those gadgets that shuts off the gas when it shakes.
>
>
>
>
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| Balanced View 2008-03-12, 5:25 pm |
| z wrote:
> "Ulysses" <eatmyspam@spamola.com/> wrote in
> news:13tgaodhl6hd94c@corp.supernews.com:
>
>
>
> my buddy built one with fatmat auto sound insulation and he cut a hole
> with a small electric fan that ran off the gen. Its super quiet
>
>
>
>
>
Why wouldn't a simple inlet for the carb intake and one for the exhaust
suffice?
| |
| Daniel Who Wants to Know 2008-03-12, 8:25 pm |
| "Balanced View" <Nill@nill.net> wrote in message
news:fr9jm2$1pd$2@aioe.org...
>z wrote:
>
> Why wouldn't a simple inlet for the carb intake and one for the exhaust
> suffice?
The gen head and engine both produce heat that must be dissipated. Even if
the engine is liquid cooled and the cooling loop extends outside the shed
the block, exhaust manifold, and gen head will still heat up the air inside
the shed so it still must have some ventilation.
| |
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| "Daniel Who Wants to Know" <danielthechskid@merrychristmasi.com> wrote
in news:4uZBj.73006$yE1.19406@attbi_s21:
> "Balanced View" <Nill@nill.net> wrote in message
> news:fr9jm2$1pd$2@aioe.org...
>
> The gen head and engine both produce heat that must be dissipated.
> Even if the engine is liquid cooled and the cooling loop extends
> outside the shed the block, exhaust manifold, and gen head will still
> heat up the air inside the shed so it still must have some
> ventilation.
Yeah.. thats why that insulation used for under the hood of cars is good
too.. its heat resistant, like fatmat or similar.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2008-03-13, 9:26 am |
| Daniel Who Wants to Know <danielthechskid@merrychristmasi.com> wrote:
>The gen head and engine both produce heat that must be dissipated.
An EU2000 generator head that's 90% efficient would produce 160 watts,
ie 546 Btu/h, which would only raise the temperature of an 8' R1 cube
by 546xR1/(6x8'x8') = 1.4 degrees F.
>Even if the engine is liquid cooled and the cooling loop extends outside
>the shed the block, exhaust manifold, and gen head will still heat up
>the air inside the shed so it still must have some ventilation.
If it burns 1.08 gallons of gas with a high heating value of 135K Btu
in 4 hours at the 1600 W rated load and makes 6.4 kWh (21.8K Btu) of
electricity and 113.2K Btu of heat (another 33.2 kWh, ie 39.6 kWh total),
it's only 16% efficient, ie the heat output is 6 times the electrical
output, ie 28.3K Btu/h. Why waste it?
An EU2000 might depressurize a plastic film room in a basement with
the exhaust bubbling through some water, then leaving the house. If
a 1000 Btu/h-F auto radiator and its 20 watt series-connected fans
remove 15K Btu/h, the room will be 15 F warmer than the basement.
Can we plug the EU2000 into an active wall socket and make the meter
go backwards? This doesn't seem economical compared to grid power,
with $4/gallon gasoline. If the EU2000 lasts 10,000 hours, it costs
about $0.09/hour to run, with a combined energy output costing about
16 cents/kWh, or 11 cents, with natural gas at $1.50/therm.
Nick
| |
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| In article <fr9jm2$1pd$2@aioe.org>, Balanced View <Nill@nill.net>
wrote:
snipped for brevity
>
> Why wouldn't a simple inlet for the carb intake and one for the exhaust
> suffice?
How would you exchange the COOLING Air inside the enclosure??????
| |
| Loren Amelang 2008-03-13, 5:25 pm |
| On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 00:30:25 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
<vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote:
>
>"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
>news:ui6et3d9j3pukgk72gmj00khkeiirjaqvk@4ax.com...
> My Onan generator happily runs off of either fuel. I only need to make a
>slight mixture adjustment for most efficient operation. It requires the same
>fuel pressure for either fuel, though it naturally takes different regulators to
>supply that pressure. By the way, the pressures involved are very low. If I
>remember correctly, it only takes 11" water column (less than 1 PSI).
>
>Vaughn
The regulator output to my Onan is at zero pressure. The regulator
just ahead of the carburetor is blocked when the engine isn't sucking
in air, and opens with the slightest vacuum. On the other side of that
regulator is my 11" WC propane. If it was natural gas which is often
delivered at 4" WC or less, the regulator would work the same, but the
pipe from there to the mains would need to be larger to make the same
volume available.
Natural gas pipe size is often the problem with retrofitting natural
gas generators into domestic systems. A 10 KW generator supposedly
outputs 35 KBTU. If it was overall 40% efficient that's 88KBTU in,
probably the largest consumer in the system.
Loren
| |
| Balanced View 2008-03-13, 5:25 pm |
| You wrote:
> In article <fr9jm2$1pd$2@aioe.org>, Balanced View <Nill@nill.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> snipped for brevity
>
>
> How would you exchange the COOLING Air inside the enclosure??????
>
How small an enclosure are you going to make it? Anything big enough to
walk in to service the beast
should be fine.
| |
| daestrom 2008-03-13, 8:25 pm |
|
"Loren Amelang" <loren@pacific.net> wrote in message
news:vgvit35chpuao37sf8o7nq5km7p6uea5q0@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 00:30:25 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
> <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote:
>
>
> The regulator output to my Onan is at zero pressure. The regulator
> just ahead of the carburetor is blocked when the engine isn't sucking
> in air, and opens with the slightest vacuum. On the other side of that
> regulator is my 11" WC propane. If it was natural gas which is often
> delivered at 4" WC or less, the regulator would work the same, but the
> pipe from there to the mains would need to be larger to make the same
> volume available.
>
> Natural gas pipe size is often the problem with retrofitting natural
> gas generators into domestic systems. A 10 KW generator supposedly
> outputs 35 KBTU. If it was overall 40% efficient that's 88KBTU in,
> probably the largest consumer in the system.
>
Guess that depends on your area. Around here, an 88,000 BTU furnace is
considered pretty normal :-)
But you're right about the NG piping. There are a fair number of whole
house NG generators around (a coworker of mine has one). Often the
installer will help you contact the gas company and recommend what sort of
service you will need (larger regulator / meter sometimes, change in
pressure, etc...)
daestrom
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