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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > March 2008 > home bru hydro update: so far so good
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home bru hydro update: so far so good
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| http://www.jeffersonfreestate.org/hh/
The beast is on its first real long term test. 4 hours running and
counting.
Mechanically we're good. I came up with a pretty sweet shaft stabalizer
and bearing solution and its running full bore with very little vibration
compared to before.
I drove the 60 miles to pick up those Centennial batteries i ordered and
the guy said they quit selling them and gave me the choice of 'werker'
l16s or trojans. The werkers were like 60 bucks cheaper a pop and
weighed about the same. Needless to say I couldn't afford the good
batteries so i went with them.
so far so good. they 'werk'
You guys know i'm a novice at this stuff and finally figured out I
couldn't ever get the damn altnerator to spin fast enough to produce more
than 12 volts.. so unless the batteries were seriously low I couldn't
charge.
I did some reading and with two six volt batteries hooked together I
wired the hydro into one of the six volters.. sending about 10 volts into
it. Like magic the system started charging.
I've read this is OK but i'd much rather do it right. Today I ran the
hydro at full bore and watched my pond.. it didn't even blink.. still
over flowing, so clearly I can increase the pipe size at least during the
winter. Thats on my list.. take what i've done and dump way more water
and add jets and increase the RPM on that alternator.
For now its good.
I still can't tell exactly how much power is being produced. Like I say
on the web page I ran off the battery bank all last night so I was down
to 11.4 (according to the xantrex c40 monitor) and tonight I'm just
running the hdyro. Its been four hours and now i'm reading 12.4 so its
doing something good. These are 2 six volt l16 equiv batteries.
Also finally you get the drag on the alternator when you hit the 'on'
switch.. it drags down bigtime.
I was such an idiot before thinking that producing 11.5 volts would
charge a 12 volt battery.. DOH!
thats a newbie for ye
Thats all for now. Thanks again for all the advice. I'm sure my system
isn't the best but thanks to you all its much better than it would have
been without you.
-zachary
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"z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
> You guys know i'm a novice at this stuff and finally figured out I
> couldn't ever get the damn altnerator to spin fast enough to produce more
> than 12 volts.. so unless the batteries were seriously low I couldn't
> charge.
>
> I did some reading and with two six volt batteries hooked together I
> wired the hydro into one of the six volters.. sending about 10 volts into
> it. Like magic the system started charging.
I can't imagine any way in which charging one battery in a bank would equalize
out for all the batteries in the bank as the site you refered to said. I would
seriously check this, because I think you will drain the other batteries, and
perhaps overcharge the one, possible gamaging all. But what do I know - I'm just
a retired electrical engineer.
Measure the voltage on each battery. I bet the charged battery is higher than
the others.
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| Eric Sears 2008-03-21, 9:25 am |
| On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:16:04 -0500, z <z@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>
>I did some reading and with two six volt batteries hooked together I
>wired the hydro into one of the six volters.. sending about 10 volts into
>it. Like magic the system started charging.
As someone else commented, charging just one 6 volt battery is a
no-no.
When you said they were "hooked together", did you mean in parallel? -
but in that case you sent "10 volts " into both of them - well
...before you actually connected them to the hydro. Then reconnect in
series to use them
>
>I've read this is OK but i'd much rather do it right. Today I ran the
>hydro at full bore and watched my pond.. it didn't even blink.. still
>over flowing, so clearly I can increase the pipe size at least during the
>winter. Thats on my list.. take what i've done and dump way more water
>and add jets and increase the RPM on that alternator.
As I have tried to explain before, the amount of water (size of jets)
should not normally increase the speed of the wheel (runner) by a huge
amount - unless you have a lot of losses which you have not accounted
for. It may even reduce the speed by causing more pipe loss at the
higher flow.
You still have no idea how much POWER you are producing (no matter at
what voltage). Have you tried putting a 12v bulb on the output of the
"alternator" (without the battery connected) and seeing what voltage
is produced? (I think the alt in perm magnet?).
The output of the alternator (at dc), ought to be about 24v before you
connect it to the battery. It should then drop to the battery voltage
- and hopefully produce some power!
If you cannot get the rpm up (by finding some losses), then either you
will need to increase the head (usually not possible - and anyway you
should not need to from previous info), or use a smaller "wheel"
(runner) (again should not be necessary), or change you
alternator/generator in some way.
Please describe your alternator again. I think it is a 3-phase,
permanent magnet device. There are two ways of wiring it (usually),
either Y or Delta. One will double the voltage. Which way is it wired?
If your current "runaway" rpm is close to what you would expect, then
you can add jets, or increase jet size until the cows come home - but
you will never get more rpm out of it. The rpm is governed by two
factors (neglecting losses) - the "head" of water, and the diameter of
the runner.. Increasing jet size increases power, but not rpm
(basically).
>
>For now its good.
>
>I still can't tell exactly how much power is being produced. Like I say
>on the web page I ran off the battery bank all last night so I was down
>to 11.4 (according to the xantrex c40 monitor) and tonight I'm just
>running the hdyro. Its been four hours and now i'm reading 12.4 so its
>doing something good. These are 2 six volt l16 equiv batteries.
I would be VERY worried if I lowered a battery to 11.4 volts for any
length of time. I would call that "dead flat". Its definitely not the
treatment for a new battery. Aim never to let it get anywhere below
12v (actually I would never let a new battery get much below 12.3v,
when not under load).
>
>Also finally you get the drag on the alternator when you hit the 'on'
>switch.. it drags down bigtime.
>
>I was such an idiot before thinking that producing 11.5 volts would
>charge a 12 volt battery.. DOH!
Again - its not 12v you need - its more like 24v (open circuit) for
your type of hydro system
>
>thats a newbie for ye
>
>Thats all for now. Thanks again for all the advice. I'm sure my system
>isn't the best but thanks to you all its much better than it would have
>been without you.
Maybe so - but I might begin to cry soon if I hear any more about
expensive batteries being ruined!
I do hope you get those batteries charged up - and then sort out
exactly how much current your hydro system can actually put out.
Eric Sears.
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| Solarconverters makes a battery charger that takes a variable input
voltage... this might be a good item to look at
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| Eeyore 2008-03-21, 9:25 am |
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Bob F wrote:
> I can't imagine any way in which charging one battery in a bank would equalize
> out for all the batteries in the bank as the site you refered to said. I would
> seriously check this, because I think you will drain the other batteries, and
> perhaps overcharge the one, possible gamaging all. But what do I know - I'm just
> a retired electrical engineer.
Yes, that concerned me too as well as the bit where he talks of charghing a 6 volt
battery with 10 volts. Batteries won't last long like that.
Graham
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| Eeyore 2008-03-21, 9:25 am |
|
BobG wrote:
> Solarconverters makes a battery charger that takes a variable input
> voltage... this might be a good item to look at
I agree totally.
Graham
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| Ulysses 2008-03-21, 1:25 pm |
|
"Eric Sears" <phoneme@025379386.for.email.address> wrote in message
news:47e38d72.1127477@news.clear.net.nz...
> On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:16:04 -0500, z <z@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>
>
> As someone else commented, charging just one 6 volt battery is a
> no-no.
> When you said they were "hooked together", did you mean in parallel? -
> but in that case you sent "10 volts " into both of them - well
> ..before you actually connected them to the hydro. Then reconnect in
> series to use them
>
> As I have tried to explain before, the amount of water (size of jets)
> should not normally increase the speed of the wheel (runner) by a huge
> amount - unless you have a lot of losses which you have not accounted
> for. It may even reduce the speed by causing more pipe loss at the
> higher flow.
>
> You still have no idea how much POWER you are producing (no matter at
> what voltage). Have you tried putting a 12v bulb on the output of the
> "alternator" (without the battery connected) and seeing what voltage
> is produced? (I think the alt in perm magnet?).
> The output of the alternator (at dc), ought to be about 24v before you
> connect it to the battery. It should then drop to the battery voltage
> - and hopefully produce some power!
>
> If you cannot get the rpm up (by finding some losses), then either you
> will need to increase the head (usually not possible - and anyway you
> should not need to from previous info), or use a smaller "wheel"
> (runner) (again should not be necessary), or change you
> alternator/generator in some way.
>
> Please describe your alternator again. I think it is a 3-phase,
> permanent magnet device. There are two ways of wiring it (usually),
> either Y or Delta. One will double the voltage. Which way is it wired?
>
> If your current "runaway" rpm is close to what you would expect, then
> you can add jets, or increase jet size until the cows come home - but
> you will never get more rpm out of it. The rpm is governed by two
> factors (neglecting losses) - the "head" of water, and the diameter of
> the runner.. Increasing jet size increases power, but not rpm
> (basically).
I was thinking that his problem might be that the alternator is slowing down
once a load is applied and that more water might give him enough power to
reduce this. Perhaps if he can just get back the rpms that he's losing.
>
>
>
> I would be VERY worried if I lowered a battery to 11.4 volts for any
> length of time. I would call that "dead flat". Its definitely not the
> treatment for a new battery. Aim never to let it get anywhere below
> 12v (actually I would never let a new battery get much below 12.3v,
> when not under load).
>
> Again - its not 12v you need - its more like 24v (open circuit) for
> your type of hydro system
>
> Maybe so - but I might begin to cry soon if I hear any more about
> expensive batteries being ruined!
>
> I do hope you get those batteries charged up - and then sort out
> exactly how much current your hydro system can actually put out.
>
> Eric Sears.
| |
| Neon John 2008-03-21, 1:25 pm |
| On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:16:04 -0500, z <z@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>You guys know i'm a novice at this stuff and finally figured out I
>couldn't ever get the damn altnerator to spin fast enough to produce more
>than 12 volts.. so unless the batteries were seriously low I couldn't
>charge.
I'd be very surprised if you couldn't spin the alternator fast enough. It sounds
like it's being asked to deliver too much current (torque) from the water wheel. Try
carefully spinning the turbine up with no load attached. Do it carefully, as it
could run away if you apply too much water. I'm betting that you'll get plenty of
speed and voltage and that the solution is to limit the current demand until you can
supply more water volume.
>I've read this is OK but i'd much rather do it right. Today I ran the
>hydro at full bore and watched my pond.. it didn't even blink.. still
>over flowing, so clearly I can increase the pipe size at least during the
>winter. Thats on my list.. take what i've done and dump way more water
>and add jets and increase the RPM on that alternator.
You not drawing much water at all, given the size of the plumbing and nozzles in your
photos. Why don't you measure the flow out of your pond? Google for the "Weir
method" All you need is some boards, a stop watch and a yard stick.
>
>For now its good.
>
>I still can't tell exactly how much power is being produced.
You might consider getting one of these nifty little gadgets. It'll remove all the
guesswork from your alternator, as it reads amps, volts, watts, watt-hours and
several other parameters.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.a...ROD&ProdID=1634
I have a couple of 'em and find them invaluable for working on 12 volt stuff.
>Like I say
>on the web page I ran off the battery bank all last night so I was down
>to 11.4 (according to the xantrex c40 monitor) and tonight I'm just
>running the hdyro. Its been four hours and now i'm reading 12.4 so its
>doing something good. These are 2 six volt l16 equiv batteries.
Drawing down the batteries that far is a good way to kill 'em in just a few cycles.
For long term service, don't go below 50% depth of discharge. For moderate lifetime
- 2-3 years - don't go below 80%.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
*fas-cism* (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a
dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the
merging of state and business leadership, together
with belligerent nationalism. -- The American Heritage Dictionary, 1983
| |
| Neon John 2008-03-21, 5:25 pm |
| On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:16:04 -0500, z <z@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>http://www.jeffersonfreestate.org/hh/
>
>The beast is on its first real long term test. 4 hours running and
>counting.
Forgot to mention in my previous post. I like your shaft support. I was going to
suggest an aluminum RV jackstand. Great minds think alike and all that.
Anyway, you might want to get a hunk of Lignum Vitae wood to use as your bearing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignum_vitae
LV is the densest wood known. It's ebony black, hard as many metals and is worked
with metal working tools. Because it is water-lubricated, it is still used as both
the thrust and main bearings of large water pumps. The 50,000 HP river water pumps
at the Sequoyah nuclear plant use LV for both bearings, for example. LV is sometimes
called "ironwood" but there are other species also called ironwood so don't let that
confuse you.
This wood is available from any of the specialty wood vendors on the net that cater
to carvers and furniture makers. It's not terribly expensive, especially in the
small quantity you need.
Simply polish the shaft where it bears against the LV, bore and ream a close fitting
hold in the LV and mount it suitably. It'll last a lifetime as long as it's kept
wet. Ideally, you'd tee off a little supply of water to supply bearing water through
a hole drilled in the wood. It should do OK with splash lubrication too.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Okay, okay, I'll take it back ... UNfuck you!
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| Can you stick a rheostat in series with the field? Might be able to
hand tune it into a sweet spot
| |
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| Some ideas on this project.
As I mentioned before, charging just one battery is not going to work, unless
you work out a system to automatically cycle through the batteries so all are
equally charged. Something that charged one battery for a period (10 min?, 1
hr?), then switched to the remaining battery with the lowest voltage could work.
To build velocity of water out of a nozzle, a slow taper to the final nozzle
diameter would work best. Lengths of small diameter tube like I see in your
pictures are not the best. Tapered nozzles could be machined, or it possible you
could heat thick walled PVC pipe, and stretch it to create a tapered nozzle,
even curving it to wrap around your wheel.
If the max voltage you get no-load is too low, you need more velocity at the
nozzle to get the wheel spinning faster. If a smaller nozzle gives you higher
voltage by making a higher speed jet, that would work best from your described
conditions. Bigger pipe leading to the final taper will likely speed the water
flow. Eliminate smaller pipe as much as possible. The larger your main feed pipe
is, the better, to reduce friction losses. The larger the diameter of the pipe
that splits to feed seperate jets, the better. Have you measured the pressure at
the feed pipe where you split it for the nozzles? Does the pressure change much
when you start the water feed? If the pressure changes much, increasing your
main pipe size, or decreasing the diameter of your nozzles could help.
For a given nozzle diameter, the distance a nozzle can send water through the
air should be a good indication of the jets speed. Nozzle testing could be done
outside the generator with this in mind. I would expect that polishing the
inside of the nozzle would help, as would a clean, sharp edge where the water
exits.
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| Neon John 2008-03-22, 3:25 am |
| On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:33:31 -0700 (PDT), BobG <bobgardner@aol.com> wrote:
>Can you stick a rheostat in series with the field? Might be able to
>hand tune it into a sweet spot
Hadn't been paying attention, I see. His alternator has a permanent magnet field.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I love cats ... they taste just like chicken.
| |
|
| Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:47E3B4DB.FFA4DF40@hotmail.com:
>
>
> Bob F wrote:
>
>
> Yes, that concerned me too as well as the bit where he talks of
> charghing a 6 volt battery with 10 volts. Batteries won't last long
> like that.
>
>
> Graham
>
Yeah. I'm going to do some testing today. I suspect that I am frying my
batteries doing this. I had a look at how my buddies dump truck is wired
-- it uses two six volt batteries to make 12 volts and his alternator is
wired to just one of the batteries (its a six volt alernator) and they
both charge, but I think that the voltage will only equalize accross all
batteries when there is a draw -- and that having the diversion
controller monitoring the full 12 volt load actually works against this
taking place.
Keep in mind this was a serious beer and rib BBQing session standing
around looking at a dump truck wiring with a couple of diesel mechanics
-- and drawing out diagrams on hammes boxes.
Give me another 10 years of screwing around with this and i'll know what
i'm doing ;)
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| daestrom 2008-03-22, 5:25 pm |
|
"z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A67E28595ECCzyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
> http://www.jeffersonfreestate.org/hh/
>
<snip>
> For now its good.
>
> I still can't tell exactly how much power is being produced. Like I say
> on the web page I ran off the battery bank all last night so I was down
> to 11.4 (according to the xantrex c40 monitor) and tonight I'm just
> running the hdyro. Its been four hours and now i'm reading 12.4 so its
> doing something good. These are 2 six volt l16 equiv batteries.
>
> Also finally you get the drag on the alternator when you hit the 'on'
> switch.. it drags down bigtime.
>
> I was such an idiot before thinking that producing 11.5 volts would
> charge a 12 volt battery.. DOH!
>
> thats a newbie for ye
>
> Thats all for now. Thanks again for all the advice. I'm sure my system
> isn't the best but thanks to you all its much better than it would have
> been without you.
>
Great work so far! Your biggest problem now seems to be the speed needed on
the alternator doesn't match the best speed of your wheel.
Adding more nozzles and water flow will speed up the wheel some, but a
faster wheel can't extract as much energy from each pound of water as it
hits it. You would also need to speed up the water and that means a
different amount of head, and you can't really change that.
So, I think you have two choices from here. You can install some form of
step-up mechanism like pulleys or gears (lots of DIY work involved doing
that). Or you can use a different alternator. One that has an electric
field instead of PM might allow you to vary the 'sweet spot' of the
alternator until it more closely matches the turbine.
Still nice work though and good progress.
daestrom
> -zachary
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| Neon John <no@never.com> wrote in
news:ocv7u31qvp0echkop26fq6i9aoim40mii6@4ax.com:
> On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:16:04 -0500, z <z@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>
>
> Forgot to mention in my previous post. I like your shaft support. I
> was going to suggest an aluminum RV jackstand. Great minds think
> alike and all that.
Yeah its like that mount was made for the job. It fit perfectly and I
didn't have to change the shaft length or anything. Just derust it,
paint it and fit the brass sleeve.
>
> Anyway, you might want to get a hunk of Lignum Vitae wood to use as
> your bearing.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignum_vitae
>
Wild. I'll have to look into that. I actually tried to make a wooden
bearing out of myrtle wood:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbellularia_californica
which is pretty hard and shares some of the properties of Lignum Vitae,
-- people around here use it for this purpose, but I couldn't get it
right. Probably need a lathe or somthing to turn a chunk down to the
right diameter and then drill it.
Maybe once I get the damn thing working right i'll upgrade that part of
things
cheers
-z
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