Alternative Power sources - home bru hydro: new jets make 13 volts!!

Author

home bru hydro: new jets make 13 volts!!

2008-03-22, 8:25 pm

Yup!

Today I spent some time trying different nozzles just to see if I could
wrangle out those last few RPMs needed to get past 12 volts ..

I bored two out to 3/8ths and dremmeled the crap out of them, finishing
the interior with some fine gauge steel wool wrapped around a dremel
shaft and polished it till the battery died on the tool. I made sure it
was a smooth angle to the tip and got rid of all the scratch marks from
the drill bit.

Put them in and just ran the hydro with a multi-meter and was getting
around 7 volts with a single jet. Pretty sweet .. the most I ever got
before was around 5.5. With both jets on and with some fiddling with the
angles I hit 13!!

So I turned connected them to the batteries and whadya know.. its
charging. The battery bank is at 12.4 and when I hit the switch to
complete the circuit the alternator comes under load and keeps on
spinning!!!

So thats that then. Now just have to keep tweaking things to gain more
performance. I might bore some out a bit bigger and see how that goes.
The nozzles i'm using don't have much room left .. any larger bores and
i'm risking going through a side wall, but they're only like 2 bucks each
so its not a huge deal if I screw one up.

speaking of which think i'll have to get to town and buy a few more to
play with.

Hey

I can't thank all of you enough for the advice and telling me i'm doing
something bone headed once in a while -- its been a huge help.

-zachary

bealiba@gmail.com

2008-03-22, 8:25 pm

Zack

You've done well, keep at it and keep posting

On Mar 23, 11:08 am, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
> Yup!
>
> Today I spent some time trying different nozzles just to see if I could
> wrangle out those last few RPMs needed to get past 12 volts ..
>
> I bored two out to 3/8ths and dremmeled the crap out of them, finishing
> the interior with some fine gauge steel wool wrapped around a dremel
> shaft and polished it till the battery died on the tool. I made sure it
> was a smooth angle to the tip and got rid of all the scratch marks from
> the drill bit.
>
> Put them in and just ran the hydro with a multi-meter and was getting
> around 7 volts with a single jet. Pretty sweet .. the most I ever got
> before was around 5.5. With both jets on and with some fiddling with the
> angles I hit 13!!
>
> So I turned connected them to the batteries and whadya know.. its
> charging. The battery bank is at 12.4 and when I hit the switch to
> complete the circuit the alternator comes under load and keeps on
> spinning!!!
>
> So thats that then. Now just have to keep tweaking things to gain more
> performance. I might bore some out a bit bigger and see how that goes.
> The nozzles i'm using don't have much room left .. any larger bores and
> i'm risking going through a side wall, but they're only like 2 bucks each
> so its not a huge deal if I screw one up.
>
> speaking of which think i'll have to get to town and buy a few more to
> play with.
>
> Hey
>
> I can't thank all of you enough for the advice and telling me i'm doing
> something bone headed once in a while -- its been a huge help.
>
> -zachary

2008-03-23, 3:25 am

bealiba@gmail.com wrote in
news:9dcd922e-3227-42be-9aae-24349ab5a50e@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> Zack
>
> You've done well, keep at it and keep posting

thanks !

Yeah its now doing 13.5. I think the alternator is just getting broken
in.

>
> On Mar 23, 11:08 am, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>

jan siepelstad

2008-03-23, 3:25 am

"z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A69AE6CBD427zyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
> Yup!
>
> Today I spent some time trying different nozzles just to see if I could
> wrangle out those last few RPMs needed to get past 12 volts ..
>
> I bored two out to 3/8ths and dremmeled the crap out of them, finishing
> the interior with some fine gauge steel wool wrapped around a dremel
> shaft and polished it till the battery died on the tool. I made sure it
> was a smooth angle to the tip and got rid of all the scratch marks from
> the drill bit.
>
> Put them in and just ran the hydro with a multi-meter and was getting
> around 7 volts with a single jet. Pretty sweet .. the most I ever got
> before was around 5.5. With both jets on and with some fiddling with the
> angles I hit 13!!
>
> So I turned connected them to the batteries and whadya know.. its
> charging. The battery bank is at 12.4 and when I hit the switch to
> complete the circuit the alternator comes under load and keeps on
> spinning!!!
>
> So thats that then. Now just have to keep tweaking things to gain more
> performance. I might bore some out a bit bigger and see how that goes.
> The nozzles i'm using don't have much room left .. any larger bores and
> i'm risking going through a side wall, but they're only like 2 bucks each
> so its not a huge deal if I screw one up.
>
> speaking of which think i'll have to get to town and buy a few more to
> play with.
>
> Hey
>
> I can't thank all of you enough for the advice and telling me i'm doing
> something bone headed once in a while -- its been a huge help.
>
>
> -zachary

Did you consider to rewinde the generator with copper wire of a smaller
diameter but with more windings?
It's not that hard to do!
I once rewinded an AC-car alternator for a few Euro's of material.
When you take out the old windings, count them well and write down how the
different poles are connected.
Smaller diameter copper wire gives lower max. amps, but for the moment
voltage looks more to be an issue.
You could also try to find an alternator rated for lower rpm's. May be from
a truck?

Jan

Eric Sears

2008-03-23, 9:25 am

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:08:50 -0500, z <z@yada.yada.com> wrote:

>Yup!
>
>Today I spent some time trying different nozzles just to see if I could
>wrangle out those last few RPMs needed to get past 12 volts ..
...........
>
>Put them in and just ran the hydro with a multi-meter and was getting
>around 7 volts with a single jet. Pretty sweet .. the most I ever got
>before was around 5.5. With both jets on and with some fiddling with the
>angles I hit 13!!
>
>So I turned connected them to the batteries and whadya know.. its
>charging. The battery bank is at 12.4 and when I hit the switch to
>complete the circuit the alternator comes under load and keeps on
>spinning!!!
>
>So thats that then.

Well I'm not sure it is! Its great that you have exceeded 12v, but as
I have said previously, you need to get to about 24 volts (not
connected to the battery) , in order to extract something like the max
power available from the water. At 13v, its likely you are not getting
more than 10%.
Exactly HOW much current is going into the battery? Simply measuring
the voltage is not sufficient. You need an ammeter in series with the
wire to the battery. I seriously doubt that you are doing any damage
to the batteries by overcharging!

As someone else said, either you need more speed from the jets (which
you might have done by improving the nozzles, or you may just have
applied more water which is overcoming the frictional losses in the
wheel and generator), or you need to gear up the generator with a belt
and pulley. Believe me (because I've done it hundreds of time and
understand the theory) - you MUST get the "runaway voltage" to about
TWICE the battery voltage with pelton or turgo wheels (its slightly
different for a turgo, but close enough not to matter). If its
charging with a significant current with you present setup, then you
are extracting very little of the available energy (that is in the
jet).

The "runaway voltage" is the voltage from the generator with no load
attached (ie the battery). When you then connect the battery, the
wheel to go down to about half of the runaway speed. That's how it
works when its working correctly.

Try connecting the tail lamp bulb as I suggested (directly to the
generator). If the whole things slows dramatically, then you really
don't have much power.
If you connect it and the voltage drops to say 9 or 10 volts - then
you have some worthwhile power.
If you connect it and the voltage hardly drops at all (ie it remains
close to 12v), then you probably have quite a "lot of power", but at
the wrong voltage. If this occurs, either you have "gear up" the
generator, rewind it as someone suggested (not easy), or find a
generator with the right characteristics.
It CAN be done with a transformer - but you really need to know what
you are doing. (You would have to circumvent the diodes). Yes, I know
its three-phase! I'm saying there are answers (because I do it, and
I've built systems that do it this way). You could even use a step-up
dc-dc converter - though I don't think much is readily available off
the shelf.

Eric Sears

daestrom

2008-03-23, 1:25 pm

"z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A69AE6CBD427zyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
> Yup!
>
> Today I spent some time trying different nozzles just to see if I could
> wrangle out those last few RPMs needed to get past 12 volts ..
>
> I bored two out to 3/8ths and dremmeled the crap out of them, finishing
> the interior with some fine gauge steel wool wrapped around a dremel
> shaft and polished it till the battery died on the tool. I made sure it
> was a smooth angle to the tip and got rid of all the scratch marks from
> the drill bit.
>
> Put them in and just ran the hydro with a multi-meter and was getting
> around 7 volts with a single jet. Pretty sweet .. the most I ever got
> before was around 5.5. With both jets on and with some fiddling with the
> angles I hit 13!!
>

That's great!

But I have to side with Eric and caution that just reaching 13 V isn't
necessarily the holy grail. If you really want to maximize the power
output, you still need to think about matching the alternator speed with the
wheel's optimum speed.

Any idea just how much water is flowing through your nozzles versus how much
current you're charging the batteries with? This and a couple of simple
calcs could help you figure out where to go for the most 'bang for your
buck' next.

I know some will argue that a PM alternator is 'better' than one with a DC
field winding because you don't waste power in the field winding. But what
it wastes in field current losses could be made up for in getting a better
output at the present wheel speed.

Remember, highest speed point isn't necessarily the highest power point for
the wheel. But a PM alternator output *is* max at highest speed.

Heck, with a DC field alternator and a lamp-board of variable loads, you can
run it the alternator as a basic dynomometer and vary the field current /
load and measure voltage / current / RPM to figure out the maximum power
point of your wheel (just be sure to include the field current in your total
load calc). Then each 'tweak' of nozzles can be measured for its effect on
power output.

daestrom
P.S. I know, I'm being a bit of an 'arm-chair engineer' on this, but your
work is interesting and I can't help my enthusiasm. Thanks for sharing.

Johnny B Good

2008-03-23, 1:25 pm

The message <47e623f3.1125756@news.clear.net.nz>
from phoneme@025379386.for.email.address (Eric Sears) contains these words:

> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:08:50 -0500, z <z@yada.yada.com> wrote:

> ...........
[color=darkred]
> Well I'm not sure it is! Its great that you have exceeded 12v, but as
> I have said previously, you need to get to about 24 volts (not
> connected to the battery) , in order to extract something like the max
> power available from the water. At 13v, its likely you are not getting
> more than 10%.
> Exactly HOW much current is going into the battery? Simply measuring
> the voltage is not sufficient. You need an ammeter in series with the
> wire to the battery. I seriously doubt that you are doing any damage
> to the batteries by overcharging!

> As someone else said, either you need more speed from the jets (which
> you might have done by improving the nozzles, or you may just have
> applied more water which is overcoming the frictional losses in the
> wheel and generator), or you need to gear up the generator with a belt
> and pulley. Believe me (because I've done it hundreds of time and
> understand the theory) - you MUST get the "runaway voltage" to about
> TWICE the battery voltage with pelton or turgo wheels (its slightly
> different for a turgo, but close enough not to matter). If its
> charging with a significant current with you present setup, then you
> are extracting very little of the available energy (that is in the
> jet).

Actually, the 'runaway voltage' on a PM generator (where the open
circuit voltage is directly proportional to speed) should be around 1.9
times (but a figure of two times will make allowance for the volt drop
under load :-).

The reason for the c1.9 times unloaded speed is on account of the way a
pelton wheel extracts power from the water jets. When unloaded the
buckets will have a linear speed equal to just slightly less than the
jet speed with the energy of the water exiting the turbine only slightly
reduced (ie a lot of wasted energy in the exiting water flow). the small
amount of energy extracted by the pelton wheel in the 'runaway'
condition being that required to overcome 'windage' and other friction
losses.

When the generator loading is optimised to the water jet energy, the
water flow exiting each bucket will have close to zero energy as it
drops out into the housing to be drained off to the lower level (it's
most important that the exhaust water does _not_ flood the turbine
housing). The water gives up its energy by having its flow reversed with
respect to each bucket the jet impinges upon. the maximum energy
extraction only occuring in this type of turbine when the jet speed is
twice that of the loaded linear speed of the buckets.

> The "runaway voltage" is the voltage from the generator with no load
> attached (ie the battery). When you then connect the battery, the
> wheel to go down to about half of the runaway speed. That's how it
> works when its working correctly.

This only applies to an unregulated PM generator (which I understand is
the case here).

> Try connecting the tail lamp bulb as I suggested (directly to the
> generator). If the whole things slows dramatically, then you really
> don't have much power.

Assuming you don't already have sufficient power to blow the lamp!

> If you connect it and the voltage drops to say 9 or 10 volts - then
> you have some worthwhile power.
> If you connect it and the voltage hardly drops at all (ie it remains
> close to 12v), then you probably have quite a "lot of power", but at
> the wrong voltage. If this occurs, either you have "gear up" the
> generator, rewind it as someone suggested (not easy), or find a
> generator with the right characteristics.

Best method of controlling power in a pelton wheel generator setup is
to automatically (via voltage or charging current feedback) adjust the
the water jets using needle control valves in each jet. This minimises
on hydro energy wastage. Any other method (except as a fast response
fine tuning augmentation) such as that suggested below will needlessly
use up your hydro energy resource at times of low demand.

> It CAN be done with a transformer - but you really need to know what
> you are doing. (You would have to circumvent the diodes). Yes, I know
> its three-phase! I'm saying there are answers (because I do it, and
> I've built systems that do it this way). You could even use a step-up
> dc-dc converter - though I don't think much is readily available off
> the shelf.

Power stations control their output by controlling the fuel input. In
this case, your 'fuel' is the energy contained in the water flow. Since
the desired speed of the generator is basically constant (the small
speed variation being needed to compensate for volt drop in the
effective ohmic resistance of said generator over varying loads), you
want to maintain the water jet speed but vary the effective diameter of
the jet (and, hence the mass of water per second that hits the runner).
The best way to do this is by using needle valve controlled jets in the
turbine housing. This method is the most efficient way to control the
hydro energy input to your turbine.

If you are using multiple jets in the turbine you can extend the range
of control by shutting off the feed to individual jets using low
turbulence valves (rotating ball valves), perhaps electing to fit needle
control to only one or two of the jets as a means of retaing fine
control whilst minimising the expense. In this case, the ball valves
will be either fully off or fully on (although they can be used as a
throttle, but only during transitions in order to allow time for the
needle valves to respond).

A properly designed pelton wheel generator system should allow you to
extract a good 80 to 90 percent of the hydro energy over the full range
of demand (this presupposes a properly designed and sized penstock feed
system to match the maximum demand).

HTH

--
Regards, John.

Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying.
The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots.

Pete C.

2008-03-23, 5:25 pm

Johnny B Good wrote:
>
> The message <47e623f3.1125756@news.clear.net.nz>
> from phoneme@025379386.for.email.address (Eric Sears) contains these words:
>
>
>
>
>
> Actually, the 'runaway voltage' on a PM generator (where the open
> circuit voltage is directly proportional to speed) should be around 1.9
> times (but a figure of two times will make allowance for the volt drop
> under load :-).
>
> The reason for the c1.9 times unloaded speed is on account of the way a
> pelton wheel extracts power from the water jets. When unloaded the
> buckets will have a linear speed equal to just slightly less than the
> jet speed with the energy of the water exiting the turbine only slightly
> reduced (ie a lot of wasted energy in the exiting water flow). the small
> amount of energy extracted by the pelton wheel in the 'runaway'
> condition being that required to overcome 'windage' and other friction
> losses.
>
> When the generator loading is optimised to the water jet energy, the
> water flow exiting each bucket will have close to zero energy as it
> drops out into the housing to be drained off to the lower level (it's
> most important that the exhaust water does _not_ flood the turbine
> housing). The water gives up its energy by having its flow reversed with
> respect to each bucket the jet impinges upon. the maximum energy
> extraction only occuring in this type of turbine when the jet speed is
> twice that of the loaded linear speed of the buckets.
>
>
> This only applies to an unregulated PM generator (which I understand is
> the case here).
>
>
> Assuming you don't already have sufficient power to blow the lamp!
>
>
> Best method of controlling power in a pelton wheel generator setup is
> to automatically (via voltage or charging current feedback) adjust the
> the water jets using needle control valves in each jet. This minimises
> on hydro energy wastage. Any other method (except as a fast response
> fine tuning augmentation) such as that suggested below will needlessly
> use up your hydro energy resource at times of low demand.
>
>
> Power stations control their output by controlling the fuel input. In
> this case, your 'fuel' is the energy contained in the water flow. Since
> the desired speed of the generator is basically constant (the small
> speed variation being needed to compensate for volt drop in the
> effective ohmic resistance of said generator over varying loads), you
> want to maintain the water jet speed but vary the effective diameter of
> the jet (and, hence the mass of water per second that hits the runner).
> The best way to do this is by using needle valve controlled jets in the
> turbine housing. This method is the most efficient way to control the
> hydro energy input to your turbine.
>
> If you are using multiple jets in the turbine you can extend the range
> of control by shutting off the feed to individual jets using low
> turbulence valves (rotating ball valves), perhaps electing to fit needle
> control to only one or two of the jets as a means of retaing fine
> control whilst minimising the expense. In this case, the ball valves
> will be either fully off or fully on (although they can be used as a
> throttle, but only during transitions in order to allow time for the
> needle valves to respond).
>
> A properly designed pelton wheel generator system should allow you to
> extract a good 80 to 90 percent of the hydro energy over the full range
> of demand (this presupposes a properly designed and sized penstock feed
> system to match the maximum demand).
>
> HTH
>
> --
> Regards, John.
>
> Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying.
> The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots.

On the part about regulating via the water input to avoid wasting the
resource, unless you have a low flow water source that you have to dam
up and allow to fill and then generate power until drained again, I fail
to see how you would be wasting the resource. If your water feed to the
turbine is less than or equal to the flow rate of the source then all
that water would be flowing over the dam anyway.

Johnny B Good

2008-03-23, 8:25 pm

The message <QIyFj.60$Nc5.13@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>
from "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> contains these words:

> Johnny B Good wrote:

====snip====

====another snip====
[color=darkred]
> On the part about regulating via the water input to avoid wasting the
> resource, unless you have a low flow water source that you have to dam
> up and allow to fill and then generate power until drained again, I fail
> to see how you would be wasting the resource. If your water feed to the
> turbine is less than or equal to the flow rate of the source then all
> that water would be flowing over the dam anyway.

That's quite true when the all year round supply of such an energy
source comfortably exceeds your maximum expectations. For micro hydro
power schemes such as this, this isn't usually the case. More
importantly, when you are tapping a small stream (either directly or via
a small holding pond - maybe an existing natural pond or small lake),
efficiently controlling the energy via the prime source rather than via
its re-incarnation as electrical energy, will help minimise
environmental impact during 'dry spells'.

If you're impounding hydro power from an existing upstream pond or
lake, regulating the hydro power flow will maximise availabilty during
dry spells when the net flow from the feeding stream(s) is less than
demand. Given a large enough lake, this will make for a far better
energy 'accumulator' than a suitably sized lead acid battery.

If the hydro option is simply an experimental add on to an existing
multi source power scheme (PV and wind turbine), then you can,
initially, forego the suggested refinement since this can always be
provided as part of an upgrade exercise once you have some actual data
on the hydro energy resource to suggest whether this would be a
worthwhile investment.

Of course, there is the even cheaper option of logging stream flows and
doing a one year's[1] hydro energy audit using quite simple logging
methods to determine the viability _before_ investing in the required
infra-structure (pen-stock pipework and turbine/generator kit). For a
small stream this could consist of a V notch weir and a float level
sensor driving a data logging program running on a cheap PC (or even
directly linked to a clockwork driven pen chart recorder).

If you happen to have access to a source of hydro energy that is known
to be reliable all year round and is well in excess of even your highest
requirements, you could then forego such data logging and simply lay in
the pipework and 'get on with it'.

[1] Even a 3 or 4 month audit over the 'wet months' might be all that is
required if this resource is only needed to augment existing PV and wind
turbine resources. At its most extreme of simplicity, you could simply
visit the proposed hydro impound site during wet and dry days to
ascertain the flow by simple visual inspection. In fact it's a good idea
to use the Mk1 eyeball method in any case, before investing in any
formal program of flow rate logging.

--
Regards, John.

Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying.
The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots.

Bob F

2008-03-24, 3:25 am

"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47e670a2$0$6128
> P.S. I know, I'm being a bit of an 'arm-chair engineer' on this, but your
> work is interesting and I can't help my enthusiasm. Thanks for sharing.
>

I suspect there are a number of us living vicariously on this one.

Bob F

2008-03-24, 3:25 am

"z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A69AE6CBD427zyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
> Yup!
>
> Today I spent some time trying different nozzles just to see if I could
> wrangle out those last few RPMs needed to get past 12 volts ..
>
> I bored two out to 3/8ths and dremmeled the crap out of them, finishing
> the interior with some fine gauge steel wool wrapped around a dremel
> shaft and polished it till the battery died on the tool. I made sure it
> was a smooth angle to the tip and got rid of all the scratch marks from
> the drill bit.
>
> Put them in and just ran the hydro with a multi-meter and was getting
> around 7 volts with a single jet. Pretty sweet .. the most I ever got
> before was around 5.5. With both jets on and with some fiddling with the
> angles I hit 13!!
>
> So I turned connected them to the batteries and whadya know.. its
> charging. The battery bank is at 12.4 and when I hit the switch to
> complete the circuit the alternator comes under load and keeps on
> spinning!!!
>
> So thats that then. Now just have to keep tweaking things to gain more
> performance. I might bore some out a bit bigger and see how that goes.
> The nozzles i'm using don't have much room left .. any larger bores and
> i'm risking going through a side wall, but they're only like 2 bucks each
> so its not a huge deal if I screw one up.
>
> speaking of which think i'll have to get to town and buy a few more to
> play with.
>
> Hey
>
> I can't thank all of you enough for the advice and telling me i'm doing
> something bone headed once in a while -- its been a huge help.
>

With the nozzles bored out to 3/8 inch, unless youve increased the feed tubes 2
or 3 time in diameter, you are probably losing a lot of velocity in the feed
tubes. What you need from what I read is velocity, to spin the wheel faster.

Morris Dovey

2008-03-24, 3:25 am

Bob F wrote:
>
> "daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:47e670a2$0$6128
>
> I suspect there are a number of us living vicariously on this one.

I think we're about ready for "How to Hijack a Creek for Fun and
Power". <g>

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

BobG

2008-03-24, 9:25 am

All the mechanical engineers are weighing in with their suggestions,
and the programmers want you to get a microcontroller to PWM the
alternators field current to tune the alternator output to match the
battery load. You could really milk this free help if yuou worked it
right.

Balanced View

2008-03-24, 9:25 am

Bob F wrote:
> "daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:47e670a2$0$6128
>
>
> I suspect there are a number of us living vicariously on this one.
>
>
>

Oh certainly, if I lived any where near his place I'd be there with the
tool box and a case of beer in a flash ;~)))))

2008-03-25, 3:25 am

"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in
news:47e670a2$0$6128$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

>
> "z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A69AE6CBD427zyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
>
> That's great!
>
> But I have to side with Eric and caution that just reaching 13 V isn't
> necessarily the holy grail. If you really want to maximize the power
> output, you still need to think about matching the alternator speed
> with the wheel's optimum speed.
>
> Any idea just how much water is flowing through your nozzles versus
> how much current you're charging the batteries with? This and a
> couple of simple calcs could help you figure out where to go for the
> most 'bang for your buck' next.
>
> I know some will argue that a PM alternator is 'better' than one with
> a DC field winding because you don't waste power in the field winding.
> But what it wastes in field current losses could be made up for in
> getting a better output at the present wheel speed.
>
> Remember, highest speed point isn't necessarily the highest power
> point for the wheel. But a PM alternator output *is* max at highest
> speed.
>
> Heck, with a DC field alternator and a lamp-board of variable loads,
> you can run it the alternator as a basic dynomometer and vary the
> field current / load and measure voltage / current / RPM to figure out
> the maximum power point of your wheel (just be sure to include the
> field current in your total load calc). Then each 'tweak' of nozzles
> can be measured for its effect on power output.
>
> daestrom
> P.S. I know, I'm being a bit of an 'arm-chair engineer' on this, but
> your work is interesting and I can't help my enthusiasm. Thanks for
> sharing.
>

After testing for a few days I can see that the 13 volts isn't enough ..

I ran the hydro through the solar voltage regulator that has an ammeter
and it wasn't doing much.

So I talked to Doug Sutton of windbluepower (the guy I bought it from)
about swapping out this altnernator for one with a different spec and the
upshot is he'll install a different stater that should give me around 20-
30 volts at the RPM i'm turning for $35 bucks -- including shipping!!!

The stater he's putting in will give me this power curve:
http://www.windbluepower.com/Perman...ind_Blue_Motor_
Wind_p/dc-512.htm

which should be waaay more realistic for what I can do with the setup
i've got. So kudos to windbluepower .. i can do $35

Love to be able to do this myself but i'm so clueless about most of this
stuff I figure its well worth the dosh.

So I took the thing apart and will send it to him tomorrow.

I'm hoping this will be the ticket .. i was waaaay over on my estimation
of how fast I could turn that sucker so rather than installing new pipe
and such i'll give this new stater a try.

thanks for all the kind words fellas

-z

2008-03-25, 3:25 am

"Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in
news:a56dnTVJBtlOvnranZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com:

>
> "z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A69AE6CBD427zyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
>
> With the nozzles bored out to 3/8 inch, unless youve increased the
> feed tubes 2 or 3 time in diameter, you are probably losing a lot of
> velocity in the feed tubes. What you need from what I read is
> velocity, to spin the wheel faster.
>
>

its interesting I did a test with some smaller nozzles and although the
velocity is faster, they do not turn the wheel as fast as those with the
larger bore.

There must be some kind of relationship of the wheel to the water such
that the larger bore catches the wheel better or something like that --
maybe the area (stream size) must be a certain volume in order to impact
its force uppon the wheel ??

In any case, these new bores show the greatest RPM compared to the other
so i'll stick with them I guess.

But like I said in the other post, the windbluepower guys are going to
install a different stater that should get me in the right voltage range
given the RPM i'm getting now.

hopefully that will get me into the juice before summer comes!!

2008-03-25, 3:25 am

Balanced View <Nill@nill.net> wrote in news:fs8bl2$7tj$2@aioe.org:

> Bob F wrote:
>
> Oh certainly, if I lived any where near his place I'd be there with
> the tool box and a case of beer in a flash ;~)))))

I'd get the BBQ going too -- and the steelhead are still running. Its
been a very fun winter project to be sure.. and so far nobody has got
electricuted.

I'm thinking about making a sign on the hydro shed:
'WARNING LOW VOLTAGE'

Ha!

thanks for all the kind words

-zachary

Bob F

2008-03-25, 3:25 am

"z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A6BCA3E78B2Ezyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
> "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:a56dnTVJBtlOvnranZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>
> its interesting I did a test with some smaller nozzles and although the
> velocity is faster, they do not turn the wheel as fast as those with the
> larger bore.
>
> There must be some kind of relationship of the wheel to the water such
> that the larger bore catches the wheel better or something like that --
> maybe the area (stream size) must be a certain volume in order to impact
> its force uppon the wheel ??
>
> In any case, these new bores show the greatest RPM compared to the other
> so i'll stick with them I guess.
>
> But like I said in the other post, the windbluepower guys are going to
> install a different stater that should get me in the right voltage range
> given the RPM i'm getting now.
>
> hopefully that will get me into the juice before summer comes!!
>

Without a doubt, the stator change sounds like an excellent approach. It
should, if properly done, enable you to get signifacantly more power out at the
lower speed you are attaining. Looking at the charts of the two generators, it
looks like you are getting slightly more than 1000 rpm. That looks like the new
generator curve will put you exactly where you you want to be voltage wise,
according to the pelton wheel design theory described by others here.

The larger nozzle will definately give you more torque, which should result
in more current at any given speed. The no-resistance speed will be higher with
faster water speed, which will be somewhat dependent on the size of the feed
tube. If the feed tube in insufficiebtly larger than the nozzle, the resistance
which reduces speed will be higher. When optimizing this system, that would be
something to look at.

The fact that your larger nozzle made a big difference in the unloaded
voltage suggests to me that the friction and other losses in the generator are
significant. These are probably going to decrease as the generator "breaks-in".

I have a hose "blaster" nozzle I acquired many years ago which could be a good
prototype for an adjustable nozzle. It has an internal rubber tube outlet nozzle
which can be constricted by turning an outer adjustment. It would produce a
solid stream as big as 1/8" in diameter, and adjust down to a single jet so
small as to be practically invisable. It's great for party tricks with the small
jet. IF such a thing is made in a larger size, it could be very good for
optimizing water flow for seasonal water supply and power needs.

As always, I'll be looking forward to your next report.

If you were nearby, I'd bring the homebrew.

BobG

2008-03-25, 9:25 am

You are interested in 'power', which is torque times speed. If either
is small, power is small. If both are at their max, power is at the
max. For more torque, more mass of water (gallons per minute)has to
hit the wheel. For more speed, squeezing that mass of water thru a
smaller nozzle makes it faster (feet per second).

Ulysses

2008-03-25, 1:26 pm

"z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A6BC6C325D5zyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
> "daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in
> news:47e670a2$0$6128$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>
>
>
>
> After testing for a few days I can see that the 13 volts isn't enough ..
>
> I ran the hydro through the solar voltage regulator that has an ammeter
> and it wasn't doing much.
>
> So I talked to Doug Sutton of windbluepower (the guy I bought it from)
> about swapping out this altnernator for one with a different spec and the
> upshot is he'll install a different stater that should give me around 20-
> 30 volts at the RPM i'm turning for $35 bucks -- including shipping!!!
>
> The stater he's putting in will give me this power curve:
> http://www.windbluepower.com/Perman...ind_Blue_Motor_
> Wind_p/dc-512.htm
>
> which should be waaay more realistic for what I can do with the setup
> i've got. So kudos to windbluepower .. i can do $35
>
>
> Love to be able to do this myself but i'm so clueless about most of this
> stuff I figure its well worth the dosh.
>
> So I took the thing apart and will send it to him tomorrow.
>
> I'm hoping this will be the ticket .. i was waaaay over on my estimation
> of how fast I could turn that sucker so rather than installing new pipe
> and such i'll give this new stater a try.

I stuck a 30" fan blade on my eu2000 alternator, put it on a pole, and was
getting about 30 volts DC in about 30 mph winds. This was way better than I
hoped for. Then I went and got a partially discharged 12 volt battery,
hooked it up with an ammeter, and it said it was charging at Zero amps.
Must be something wrong with the ammeter thought I. So I got my multimeter
and connected it. Zero amps it said. Then I rewired the alternator from
Star to Delta thinking I'd get 15 volts and double the amperage.
Unfortunately Zero X 2 is still Zero. So then I made a seven foot diameter
blade. Then I took it down and connected it to a 4 HP engine. I can get up
to 35 amps or so at around 2000-2500 rpms (just a guess on the rpms). Now
my problem is that I have about 155 volts DC and my charge controller gets
scared at 141 volts and blows up at 150. If I turn down the engine speed I
can get it down to 135 volts or so but I also get less amps. Bottom line
here is that I think you need the rpms AND a larger volume of water to
provide enough power to continue to turn it when under load.

These guys that sell the PMAs presumably have the experience and probably
know which stator/rotor combination will work best in any particular
situation so I hope this works out for you. However, I emailed both (I
could only find two and I'm not sure they are not the same place) and they
each told me I should use a different alternator than the one I picked
according to the power curve graphs to use with an engine. One place said
they would do a "one time" exchange of the rotor for $100 so $35 sounds like
a great deal.

>
>
> thanks for all the kind words fellas
>
> -z

Bob F

2008-03-25, 1:26 pm

"BobG" <bobgardner@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7d2744be-36fe-41bc-8668-48843f9409b0@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> You are interested in 'power', which is torque times speed. If either
> is small, power is small. If both are at their max, power is at the
> max. For more torque, more mass of water (gallons per minute)has to
> hit the wheel. For more speed, squeezing that mass of water thru a
> smaller nozzle makes it faster (feet per second).

Or, for more speed and torque squeeze more mass of water through the same size
nozzle. Obviously, the amount of water has to be compatible with the source of
water. To get more through the same nozzle requires minimizing friction losses
and optimizing nozzle design.

According to
http://books.google.com/books?id=I8...Kr_CO9Y5Q&hl=en
the cup of the pelton wheel should be optimized for the nozzle size. It would be
interesting to know what this criteria is on the OPs wheel.

Other interesting resources found by googleing "pelton wheel nozzle design"

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/5/7/145452/5393
http://www.rpc.com.au/products/hydr...wheels_faq.html

daestrom

2008-03-25, 5:25 pm

Ulysses

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

"Ulysses" <eatmyspam@spamola.com/> wrote in message
news:13ui7p33skn3t81@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A6BC6C325D5zyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
...[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
20-[color=darkred]
http://www.windbluepower.com/Perman...ind_Blue_Motor_[color=darkred]
>
> I stuck a 30" fan blade on my eu2000 alternator, put it on a pole, and was
> getting about 30 volts DC in about 30 mph winds. This was way better than
I
> hoped for. Then I went and got a partially discharged 12 volt battery,
> hooked it up with an ammeter, and it said it was charging at Zero amps.
> Must be something wrong with the ammeter thought I. So I got my
multimeter
> and connected it. Zero amps it said. Then I rewired the alternator from
> Star to Delta thinking I'd get 15 volts and double the amperage.
> Unfortunately Zero X 2 is still Zero. So then I made a seven foot
diameter
> blade. Then I took it down and connected it to a 4 HP engine. I can get
up
> to 35 amps or so at around 2000-2500 rpms (just a guess on the rpms). Now
> my problem is that I have about 155 volts DC and my charge controller gets
> scared at 141 volts and blows up at 150. If I turn down the engine speed
I
> can get it down to 135 volts or so but I also get less amps. Bottom line
> here is that I think you need the rpms AND a larger volume of water to
> provide enough power to continue to turn it when under load.

Here's a site that has the formula for horsepower from water:

http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/horse.htm

Realistically you can get about 500 watts of electrical power from 1 HP but
i suspect some of that initial HP is needed just to keep things going.
Since 500 watts at 14.5 volts would be about 34 amps you must be only
getting a small fraction of a horsepower so far.

>
> These guys that sell the PMAs presumably have the experience and probably
> know which stator/rotor combination will work best in any particular
> situation so I hope this works out for you. However, I emailed both (I
> could only find two and I'm not sure they are not the same place) and they
> each told me I should use a different alternator than the one I picked
> according to the power curve graphs to use with an engine. One place said
> they would do a "one time" exchange of the rotor for $100 so $35 sounds
like
> a great deal.
>
>
>

2008-03-31, 3:25 am

"Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0f6dnVg-jsrd4HXanZ2dnUVZ_tajnZ2d@comcast.com:

>
> "z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A6BCA3E78B2Ezyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
>
> Without a doubt, the stator change sounds like an excellent
> approach. It
> should, if properly done, enable you to get signifacantly more power
> out at the lower speed you are attaining. Looking at the charts of the
> two generators, it looks like you are getting slightly more than 1000
> rpm. That looks like the new generator curve will put you exactly
> where you you want to be voltage wise, according to the pelton wheel
> design theory described by others here.
>
> The larger nozzle will definately give you more torque, which
> should result
> in more current at any given speed. The no-resistance speed will be
> higher with faster water speed, which will be somewhat dependent on
> the size of the feed tube. If the feed tube in insufficiebtly larger
> than the nozzle, the resistance which reduces speed will be higher.
> When optimizing this system, that would be something to look at.
>
> The fact that your larger nozzle made a big difference in the
> unloaded
> voltage suggests to me that the friction and other losses in the
> generator are significant. These are probably going to decrease as the
> generator "breaks-in".
>
> I have a hose "blaster" nozzle I acquired many years ago which could
> be a good prototype for an adjustable nozzle. It has an internal
> rubber tube outlet nozzle which can be constricted by turning an outer
> adjustment. It would produce a solid stream as big as 1/8" in
> diameter, and adjust down to a single jet so small as to be
> practically invisable. It's great for party tricks with the small jet.
> IF such a thing is made in a larger size, it could be very good for
> optimizing water flow for seasonal water supply and power needs.
>
> As always, I'll be looking forward to your next report.
>
> If you were nearby, I'd bring the homebrew.
>
>

cool. Yeah I had thoughts about using some kind of ajustable nozzel.

In any case my ISP has been giving me fits so sorry for not answering so
fast.

I did invest in a Frelon sleve bearing for the shaft which may let the
thing spin a bit better, rather than the simple bronze one I have now.
It also fits the support better so once the altnerator comes back it'll
be testing time again.

cheers -- another week or two and we'll find out!

2008-03-31, 5:25 pm

"jan siepelstad" <jan@microsoft.com> wrote in
news:3e6e$47e60ab4$d97b6566$18696@cache5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl:

>
> "z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A69AE6CBD427zyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
>
> Did you consider to rewinde the generator with copper wire of a
> smaller diameter but with more windings?
> It's not that hard to do!
> I once rewinded an AC-car alternator for a few Euro's of material.
> When you take out the old windings, count them well and write down how
> the different poles are connected.
> Smaller diameter copper wire gives lower max. amps, but for the moment
> voltage looks more to be an issue.
> You could also try to find an alternator rated for lower rpm's. May be
> from a truck?
>
> Jan
>
>

Thanks yeah.. This is a PMA altnerator but the vender offered to switch
the stater out for me at a reasonable price, so once it gets back
hopefully i'll be making the right voltage.

2008-03-31, 5:25 pm

phoneme@025379386.for.email.address (Eric Sears) wrote in
news:47e623f3.1125756@news.clear.net.nz:

> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:08:50 -0500, z <z@yada.yada.com> wrote:
>
> ..........
>
> Well I'm not sure it is! Its great that you have exceeded 12v, but as
> I have said previously, you need to get to about 24 volts (not
> connected to the battery) , in order to extract something like the max
> power available from the water. At 13v, its likely you are not getting
> more than 10%.
> Exactly HOW much current is going into the battery? Simply measuring
> the voltage is not sufficient. You need an ammeter in series with the
> wire to the battery. I seriously doubt that you are doing any damage
> to the batteries by overcharging!
>
> As someone else said, either you need more speed from the jets (which
> you might have done by improving the nozzles, or you may just have
> applied more water which is overcoming the frictional losses in the
> wheel and generator), or you need to gear up the generator with a belt
> and pulley. Believe me (because I've done it hundreds of time and
> understand the theory) - you MUST get the "runaway voltage" to about
> TWICE the battery voltage with pelton or turgo wheels (its slightly
> different for a turgo, but close enough not to matter). If its
> charging with a significant current with you present setup, then you
> are extracting very little of the available energy (that is in the
> jet).
>
> The "runaway voltage" is the voltage from the generator with no load
> attached (ie the battery). When you then connect the battery, the
> wheel to go down to about half of the runaway speed. That's how it
> works when its working correctly.
>
> Try connecting the tail lamp bulb as I suggested (directly to the
> generator). If the whole things slows dramatically, then you really
> don't have much power.
> If you connect it and the voltage drops to say 9 or 10 volts - then
> you have some worthwhile power.
> If you connect it and the voltage hardly drops at all (ie it remains
> close to 12v), then you probably have quite a "lot of power", but at
> the wrong voltage. If this occurs, either you have "gear up" the
> generator, rewind it as someone suggested (not easy), or find a
> generator with the right characteristics.
> It CAN be done with a transformer - but you really need to know what
> you are doing. (You would have to circumvent the diodes). Yes, I know
> its three-phase! I'm saying there are answers (because I do it, and
> I've built systems that do it this way). You could even use a step-up
> dc-dc converter - though I don't think much is readily available off
> the shelf.
>
> Eric Sears
>

Yeah I've come to finally understand that .. or at least believe it.
Hopefully the new stater should get me around 30 volts and then i'll be
able to bring it under full load and measure better.

I wasn't able to blow up a 12 volt bulb, nor really register much on my
ammeter -- i doubt i was making enough and the ammeter I have has a
pretty large scale.

we'll see.

thanks for all the advice ..

you know the saying -- the man points at the moon and the dog looks at
his finger

i'll get it figured out eventually

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