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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > March 2008 > Gas tubine generator
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Gas tubine generator
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| Hello all
This is my first time here and was wondering if anyone here has come
across anyone who has built a natural gas turbine/ generator for home
use. A few years ago i came across a guy that did but didnt mark his site.
He used a home built gas tubine like the kind you use for a model jet
airplane to run some kind of generator. From what i remember he said it
paid for itself in 3 years or so. He also was able to get heat for his
home and hot water as well all from the exhaust gases of the turbine.
What are the thoughts he guys?
Thanks
Tim
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| Charles Foot 2008-03-25, 5:25 pm |
| Tim wrote:
> Hello all
>
> This is my first time here and was wondering if anyone here has come
> across anyone who has built a natural gas turbine/ generator for home
> use. A few years ago i came across a guy that did but didnt mark his site.
>
> He used a home built gas tubine like the kind you use for a model jet
> airplane to run some kind of generator. From what i remember he said it
> paid for itself in 3 years or so. He also was able to get heat for his
> home and hot water as well all from the exhaust gases of the turbine.
>
> What are the thoughts he guys?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tim
Hi Tim,
a New Zealand company makes a unit called a Whispergen. Not however, a
turbine.... it is a Stirling engine which runs off natural gas, produces
a couple of kW of electric power and hot water as well. They also make
an 800 watt diesel fired version for marine use.
See http://www.whispergen.com/
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| Vaughn Simon 2008-03-25, 5:25 pm |
|
"Charles Foot" <chaz@equinet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1206477503.711469@ftpsrv1...
> a New Zealand company makes a unit called a Whispergen. Not however, a
> turbine.... it is a Stirling engine which runs off natural gas, produces a
> couple of kW of electric power and hot water as well. They also make an 800
> watt diesel fired version for marine use.
> See http://www.whispergen.com/
And Honda teams with another company to make an ICE version of that idea:
http://www.climate-energy.com/Products/wasystem.asp
Be aware that the small model engine turbines that you asked about have short
TBOs (time between overhauls) and will likely produce far more heat than power.
Lower technology (such as a clean ICE engine) seems like a better fit for
home-sized applications. These CHP (Combined Heat & Power) concepts seem to
make sense only in a climate where the waste heat is usually useful. Us folks
in south Florida need not apply.
Vaughn
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| Morris Dovey 2008-03-25, 8:25 pm |
| Charles Foot wrote:
> a New Zealand company makes a unit called a Whispergen. Not however, a
> turbine.... it is a Stirling engine which runs off natural gas, produces
> a couple of kW of electric power and hot water as well. They also make
> an 800 watt diesel fired version for marine use.
Do you, by any chance, have a sales e-mail address for
Whispergen?
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
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| On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:13:49 -0500, Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com>
wrote:
>Charles Foot wrote:
>
>
>Do you, by any chance, have a sales e-mail address for
>Whispergen?
http://www.whispergen.co.nz/
info@whispergen.com
HTH
--
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| On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:46:10 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
<vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote:
>
>"Charles Foot" <chaz@equinet.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:1206477503.711469@ftpsrv1...
>
> And Honda teams with another company to make an ICE version of that idea:
> http://www.climate-energy.com/Products/wasystem.asp
>
> Be aware that the small model engine turbines that you asked about have short
>TBOs (time between overhauls) and will likely produce far more heat than power.
>Lower technology (such as a clean ICE engine) seems like a better fit for
>home-sized applications. These CHP (Combined Heat & Power) concepts seem to
>make sense only in a climate where the waste heat is usually useful. Us folks
>in south Florida need not apply.
Excess heat can also be used in hot climates to chill water, all it
takes is a little thought.
On the subject of TBO, Capstone units have an extremely extended
service life
http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prod...ducts/index.asp
--
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| Mike wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:46:10 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
> <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Excess heat can also be used in hot climates to chill water, all it
> takes is a little thought.
>
> On the subject of TBO, Capstone units have an extremely extended
> service life
> http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prod...ducts/index.asp
>
>
Ya I know about the TBO but im not looking to power a city or anything
lol Just wanted to know certain key things like for example how much
continuos KW is need to run a house of average size with say standard
100 amp fuse panel and the normal amount of appliances including air
conditioner?
We live in Canada and the winter can get cold and we need the heat for
hot water as well so the heat part of it is useful. I have looked at
capstone and they use a modified turbo charger as their turbine but they
are built for industrial peak shaving applications, not home use.
Is it even possible to run a turbine off or standard home gas pressures?
Any links anyone has would be great. I think that a system the size of
say a refrigerator would be the perfect system for a hot to replace your
furnace, hot water heater and hydro supply to your house.
Thoughts are welcome.
Tim
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| Anthony Matonak 2008-03-26, 1:25 pm |
| Tim wrote:
....
> Ya I know about the TBO but im not looking to power a city or anything
> lol Just wanted to know certain key things like for example how much
> continuos KW is need to run a house of average size with say standard
> 100 amp fuse panel and the normal amount of appliances including air
> conditioner?
From what I've seen, the houses average about 1kW and an air
conditioner can add another 1kW to 2kW depending on how big
it is and how hot it is. This works out to around 24kWh/day
normally and 48kWh on up with the air conditioner.
A little work on energy conservation and you can probably
get your house consumption considerably lower than that.
Anthony
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| Neon John 2008-03-26, 5:25 pm |
| On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:02:41 +0000, Mike <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>On the subject of TBO, Capstone units have an extremely extended
>service life
>http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prod...ducts/index.asp
And if you believe that, I have some oceanfront land up here in Tellico to sell you.
Don't take my word for it. Ask any executive that you can find from the late great
AVS. That's the company that built electric urban buses. They tried to build a
hybrid NG fueled bus but went for the glitter of the capstone instead of the tried
and true spark or diesel engine. It bankrupted them. I have first-hand knowledge of
that one. Not the least of which from buying some of their assets at the bankruptcy
sale. According to folks from AVS that I've talked to, you could count the hours to
failure on your hands and have fingers left over.
There's a reason why all mission-critical small generators use some form of ICE. And
there's a reason why outfits like Capstone and that stirling outfit remain on the
sidelines.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I don't speak Stupid so do speak slowly.
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| John
Great info but maybe you could explain to me how aircraft and larger
turbines get longer lifes? I am green i am interested to know if this is
an idea for home use?
Tim
Neon John wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:02:41 +0000, Mike <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And if you believe that, I have some oceanfront land up here in Tellico to sell you.
>
> Don't take my word for it. Ask any executive that you can find from the late great
> AVS. That's the company that built electric urban buses. They tried to build a
> hybrid NG fueled bus but went for the glitter of the capstone instead of the tried
> and true spark or diesel engine. It bankrupted them. I have first-hand knowledge of
> that one. Not the least of which from buying some of their assets at the bankruptcy
> sale. According to folks from AVS that I've talked to, you could count the hours to
> failure on your hands and have fingers left over.
>
> There's a reason why all mission-critical small generators use some form of ICE. And
> there's a reason why outfits like Capstone and that stirling outfit remain on the
> sidelines.
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> I don't speak Stupid so do speak slowly.
>
| |
| Charles Foot 2008-03-26, 5:25 pm |
| Morris Dovey wrote:
> Charles Foot wrote:
>
>
> Do you, by any chance, have a sales e-mail address for
> Whispergen?
>
Hi Morris,
Whispergen do not sell their products to end users, only to
distributors. Here's an email addy for one such: guardianship@xtra.co.nz
FYI: here is part of a reply I received in response to a query about the
24-volt dc version
--------------------------------------------------------------
The supplied price for the 24volt WhisperGen is $16,750 + GST
The price includes
1 x 24volt WhisperGen
1 x Digital display
1 x Installation pack ( cableing, exhaust hose, clamps, pumps ect ) I
can supply a complete list on request but with most marine installations
the only extra equipment required is 2 x skin fitting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That price is in New Zealand dollars. GST would not apply to an overseas
buyer.
Cheers, C
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| Morris Dovey 2008-03-26, 5:25 pm |
| Charles Foot wrote:
> Whispergen do not sell their products to end users, only to
> distributors.
My interest was not as an end user. Thanks for the info!
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
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| On Mar 26, 4:20=A0pm, Morris Dovey <mrdo...@iedu.com> wrote:
> Charles Foot wrote:
>
> My interest was not as an end user. Thanks for the info!
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
ingersoll makes just what you are talking about
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| Neon John 2008-03-27, 3:25 am |
| On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:32:05 -0400, Tim <tim-s@quickmill.com> wrote:
>John
>
>Great info but maybe you could explain to me how aircraft and larger
>turbines get longer lifes? I am green i am interested to know if this is
>an idea for home use?
The problem with the Capstone is that it's a blivit. (you know, 10 lbs of crap
stuffed into a 5 lb bag). A little unit that is small and light enough to be picked
up easily by a single man produces around 80kW (in the case of the AVS unit). To
pack that kind of power into such a small package, the bleeding edge of materials and
manufacturing state of the art must be pushed. High end ceramic and metals
technology, for example. Think of it as the F1 engine of the turbine world. It
makes a boat-load of power but not for long.
Larger turbines benefit from (relatively) conservative design and from decades of
engineering development. If you're really interested in this subject then I suggest
the book "Gas Turbine Handbook". Kinda expensive at >$100 but a very good read. A
PDF of the book occasionally shows up on Usenet and the Torrent network.
Is a small gas turbine suitable for home use? Not only no but hell no! At least not
unless you're looking for an unholy combination of noise, low efficiency, very high
cost (initial and maintenance) and low reliability. If you're looking for a cogen
electric/heat unit then look at the somewhat limited selection of IC-engine-based
units that are on the market. Or build your own.
York offered one during the last "energy crisis" that used a small, very low speed
natural gas fired engine to supply electricity, heat and AC (heat pump), all in one
nice package that looked like a conventional split unit condensing unit. It wasn't
commercially successful because it cost too much.
As for that WhisperGen, I frankly can't think of a problem that a unit that costly
can uniquely solve. Consider. The RV/mobile unit delivers about 800 watts of 12
volt electricity and about 19,000 BTU of heat in a package that sells for a whopping
$16,750. Those are New Zealand dollars. At today's exchange rate, that's 13,354.78
US dollars. Any idea how many diesel APUs one can buy for that kind of money? That
price is so far out there that the unit is irrelevant except perhaps for government
'crats spending other peoples' money.
Even Whispergen tacitly admits as much. Their only mobile "success story" on their
web site is an installation involving an ambulance. The ambulance didn't need the
comfort heat so basically some government agency spent around $13k for an 800 watt
generator. That same task (running the medical instruments) is normally accomplished
using a 200 amp "ambulance alternator" (commercial truck alternator) and a suitable
inverter. No more than $1000 even at inflated government prices.
This is the classic solution looking for the problem that will never exist.
John
[color=darkred]
>Neon John wrote:
>
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If stupidity hurt then there'd be Aspirin in the salt shakers.
| |
| Vaughn Simon 2008-03-27, 5:25 pm |
|
"Mike" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:tsaku310qmaqusvn098k2dl83d9ss6ca4h@4ax.com...
> Excess heat can also be used in hot climates to chill water, all it
> takes is a little thought.
You seem to be imply greater knowledge than the rest of us, so why don't you
go ahead and explain? Links to a few competatively priced household-sized
absorbtion AC units would be nice while you are at it.
Vaughn
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| Morris Dovey 2008-03-27, 8:25 pm |
| Vaughn Simon wrote:
>
> "Mike" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:tsaku310qmaqusvn098k2dl83d9ss6ca4h@4ax.com...
>
> You seem to be imply greater knowledge than the rest of us, so why don't you
> go ahead and explain? Links to a few competatively priced household-sized
> absorbtion AC units would be nice while you are at it.
I wish I had a bit of that knowledge...
In the works: a liquid-piston Stirling engine driven by solar
energy. Progress has been slow but it is working - you can see a
photo at the bottom of
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/Dyne.html
One of the interesting features of Stirling cycle engines is that
if they're driven mechanically, they function as heat pumps. Once
the engine pictured on the web page is working as well as we
think it should, the plan is to couple it directly to a second
engine and use the pair for refrigeration and (if it works out as
well as hoped) for air-conditioning. There's a sketch of the
weird contraption at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/Cool.html
Not too helpfully, the darned thing will only work when the sun
is shining...
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
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| Vaughn Simon 2008-03-27, 8:25 pm |
|
"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:47EC211F.29CBF862@iedu.com...
>
> Not too helpfully, the darned thing will only work when the sun
> is shining...
On the contrary. Here in s. Florida, when the sun is shining is exactly when
we need AC the most. Solar energy is a perfect fit to air conditioning and heat
driven AC units are nothing new, but the devil is in the details. As far as I
know, there is nothing on the market.
Vaughn
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| Morris Dovey 2008-03-27, 8:25 pm |
| Vaughn Simon wrote:
>
> "Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
> news:47EC211F.29CBF862@iedu.com...
>
> On the contrary. Here in s. Florida, when the sun is shining is exactly when
> we need AC the most. Solar energy is a perfect fit to air conditioning and heat
> driven AC units are nothing new, but the devil is in the details. As far as I
> know, there is nothing on the market.
Just getting the heat engine to work has been considerably more
difficult than it looked like it would be. The upside to the
whole thing is that it doesn't require more than elementary
plumbing skills to produce, and there's nothing to maintain
because the only moving "parts" are air and water.
Personally, I'm kind of hoping that the "buy once, use forever"
concept catches on. :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
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