Alternative Power sources

Author

Remote hydro.

gomango

2008-03-17, 8:25 pm

I have this master plan, and I would like a bit of advice from you
all. I have a creek about 300 yards from the house, and in the winter
the water level is pretty good. I was trying to figure out a way to
pipe hydro power (for charging) up to the house without running copper
lines to attempt to save a few $$. Here is what I came up with.

Floating sled water wheel to run a compressor
Vain motor to run a generator (The guts of a worn Honda 1000UI
generator)
Charging system to be ran from generator

I'm really new to this design and plan stuff, so if there is a more
efficient means to transfer the power uphill, and 300 +yards without
running electrical transmission lines, please advise. I'm worried
about the ware and tear on the pneumatic machines and maintenance
expenses making it not worth while.

Bob F

2008-03-17, 8:25 pm

2008-03-17, 9:25 pm

Gordon

2008-03-18, 3:25 am

gomango <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in news:c94c598e-7db5-4cb0-a5f8-
7abe149e77af@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> I have this master plan, and I would like a bit of advice from you
> all. I have a creek about 300 yards from the house, and in the winter
> the water level is pretty good. I was trying to figure out a way to
> pipe hydro power (for charging) up to the house without running copper
> lines to attempt to save a few $$. Here is what I came up with.
>
> Floating sled water wheel to run a compressor
> Vain motor to run a generator (The guts of a worn Honda 1000UI
> generator)
> Charging system to be ran from generator
>
> I'm really new to this design and plan stuff, so if there is a more
> efficient means to transfer the power uphill, and 300 +yards without
> running electrical transmission lines, please advise. I'm worried
> about the ware and tear on the pneumatic machines and maintenance
> expenses making it not worth while.

Why the aversion to running wires??
It's the simplest solution.

Ulysses

2008-03-18, 5:25 pm

"gomango" <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c94c598e-7db5-4cb0-a5f8-7abe149e77af@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> I have this master plan, and I would like a bit of advice from you
> all. I have a creek about 300 yards from the house, and in the winter
> the water level is pretty good. I was trying to figure out a way to
> pipe hydro power (for charging) up to the house without running copper
> lines to attempt to save a few $$. Here is what I came up with.
>
> Floating sled water wheel to run a compressor
> Vain motor to run a generator (The guts of a worn Honda 1000UI
> generator)
> Charging system to be ran from generator
>
> I'm really new to this design and plan stuff, so if there is a more
> efficient means to transfer the power uphill, and 300 +yards without
> running electrical transmission lines, please advise. I'm worried
> about the ware and tear on the pneumatic machines and maintenance
> expenses making it not worth while.

If the eu1000 is like the eu2000 then it has a 3-phase permanant magnet
alternator that puts out up to about 240 VAC. If you are using it to charge
batteries then I'd think you could get by running wires to your house
without too much voltage drop.

What I did with my eu2000 PMA was to rewire the alternator from Star to
Delta thus giving me lower voltage and higher amperage. I'm able to charge
my 48 volt battery bank via my OutBack MX60 charge controller at 20 amps
with the my engine barely running above idle so I'd guess that if you can
turn it with water you might be able to get enough RPMs to make it
practical. You might want to read some of the posts "z" wrote recently
about his hydro system that he's working on.

I still need to make some kind of regulator so my PMA voltage won't exceed
the 141 VDC limit of my MX60. Once I do that I should be able to speed up
my engine and get 40 amps or so. That exceeds what the eu2000 can do when
connected to the inverter which makes me think there is a substantial loss
going on there.

gomango

2008-03-18, 8:25 pm

On Mar 18, 1:04=A0pm, "Ulysses" <eatmys...@spamola.com/> wrote:
> "gomango" <gomangod...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c94c598e-7db5-4cb0-a5f8-7abe149e77af@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
[color=darkred]
>
>
>
> If the eu1000 is like the eu2000 then it has a 3-phase permanant magnet
> alternator that puts out up to about 240 VAC. =A0If you are using it to ch=
arge
> batteries then I'd think you could get by running wires to your house
> without too much voltage drop.
>
> What I did with my eu2000 PMA was to rewire the alternator from Star to
> Delta thus giving me lower voltage and higher amperage. =A0I'm able to cha=
rge
> my 48 volt battery bank via my OutBack MX60 charge controller at 20 amps
> with the my engine barely running above idle so I'd guess that if you can
> turn it with water you might be able to get enough RPMs to make it
> practical. =A0You might want to read some of the posts "z" wrote recently
> about his hydro system that he's working on.
>
> I still need to make some kind of regulator so my PMA voltage won't exceed=

> the 141 VDC limit of my MX60. =A0Once I do that I should be able to speed =
up
> my engine and get 40 amps or so. =A0That exceeds what the eu2000 can do wh=
en
> connected to the inverter which makes me think there is a substantial loss=

> going on there.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ok, Ill try to answer what I can here.

I really cant move the batteries closer due to the fact that the power
shed is already designed and set up for solar and wind where it
currently is. Im only looking for 10 amps charging. I figure that 10
amps over a 24 hour period would be more than enough to keep up with
winter demands without installing aditional solar. My adversion to
running wires was the voltage drop over that distance. I am pretty
new to all this so if Im wrong, please let me know.

Ulysses, sounds like you have a pretty good handle on these honda
generators. I actually ran a battery charger with this generator and
was able to charge at 30 amps, but that usually tapered off pretty
fast and the generator would run at an idle for quite a while. The
system is simple... (Only 2 L16's) but am trying to figure out how to
get more charging power for an upgrade to 4 surrette S-530's. Im
thinking that the usage in the winter is going to outrun the solar,
and Im not wanting to pay the fuel expense again next year. Is it
possible to rewind the generator to create an increase in voltage so
it can be transmitted to the regulator/inverter located at the power
house? If I were to do it, there would be a lot of trial and error
involved. Im not to keen on the electrical engeneering of generators.

I unerstand the conversion issues, and thought that by overpowering at
the source to compensate would fix that. Guess I might have been
thinking a bit on the overkill side. Ill check out some of the posts
that Z made and do a bit more research... If you all can think of a
good solution, please let me know. The creek is probably 25-30 feet
lower in elivation to the house, and the uphill side of the creek is
off the property, so I cant tap it as a gravity feed system.

gomango

2008-03-18, 8:25 pm

On Mar 18, 3:26=A0pm, gomango <gomangod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 18, 1:04=A0pm, "Ulysses" <eatmys...@spamola.com/> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
[color=darkred]
>
er[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
>
>
>
charge[color=darkred]
>
harge[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
n[color=darkred]
y[color=darkred]
>
ed[color=darkred]
d up[color=darkred]
when[color=darkred]
ss[color=darkred]
>
>
> Ok, Ill try to answer what I can here.
>
> I really cant move the batteries closer due to the fact that the power
> shed is already designed and set up for solar and wind where it
> currently is. =A0Im only looking for 10 amps charging. =A0I figure that 10=

> amps over a 24 hour period would be more than enough to keep up with
> winter demands without installing aditional solar. =A0My adversion to
> running wires was the voltage drop over that distance. =A0I am pretty
> new to all this so if Im wrong, please let me know.
>
> Ulysses, =A0sounds like you have a pretty good handle on these honda
> generators. =A0I actually ran a battery charger with this generator and
> was able to charge at 30 amps, but that usually tapered off pretty
> fast and the generator would run at an idle for quite a while. =A0The
> system is simple... (Only 2 L16's) but am trying to figure out how to
> get more charging power for an upgrade to 4 surrette S-530's. =A0Im
> thinking that the usage in the winter is going to outrun the solar,
> and Im not wanting to pay the fuel expense again next year. =A0 Is it
> possible to rewind the generator to create an increase in voltage so
> it can be transmitted to the regulator/inverter located at the =A0power
> house? =A0If I were to do it, there would be a lot of trial and error
> involved. =A0Im not to keen on the electrical engeneering of generators.
>
> I unerstand the conversion issues, and thought that by overpowering at
> the source to compensate would fix that. =A0Guess I might have been
> thinking a bit on the overkill side. =A0Ill check out some of the posts
> that Z made and do a bit more research... If you all can think of a
> good solution, please let me know. =A0The creek is probably 25-30 feet
> lower in elivation to the house, and the uphill side of the creek is
> off the property, so I cant tap it as a gravity feed system.- Hide quoted =
text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I guess when you think about this, its more of a... transmitting power
over a great distance issue that anything else. Perhaps I need to set
up a high voltage generator and then worry about stepping that down at
the top of the hill.

2008-03-18, 8:25 pm

gomango <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in
news:40a729ff-5477-49a2-b87d-e68b6e8cac59@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 18, 3:26_pm, gomango <gomangod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> er
>
>
> charge
> harge
>
> n
> y
> ed
> d up
> when
> ss
>
> text -
>
> I guess when you think about this, its more of a... transmitting power
> over a great distance issue that anything else. Perhaps I need to set
> up a high voltage generator and then worry about stepping that down at
> the top of the hill.
>

heya

My system is based on high pressure low flow direct drive pelton wheel
stuck on a PMA altnerator:

http://www.jeffersonfreestate.org/hh

Actually a lot more work has been done on this but i've not updated. Its
in semi-production now so i'm pretty stoked. Still have some wiring to
do but its charging batteries. I'll update it soon.

So you are probably looking at a bigger wheel of somekind thats geared
(or pullied) up to the RPM needed ??

I had thought about using the EU2000 generator to work mine but I wasn't
smart enough or brave enough to break one down and try to figure that
out.

The PDF at the bottom of this page is pretty good intro to the various
methods you might use for the turbine side of things:
http://www.absak.com/library/micro-hydro-power-systems

Also, the PMA altnernator I ended up buying has an AC output option:

http://www.windbluepower.com/

which is designed to allow you to send the energy over a longer distance
without so much voltage drop. I guess they use them on wind turbines
that are quite aways away from the battery bank which is the same problem
you have.

I didn't use this since my hydro and battery shed are in one place.

best of luck man .. there's nothing like finally getting the thing to
work and extracting energy from the combination of water and gravity!

-zachary

Gordon

2008-03-18, 9:25 pm

gomango <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in news:943ababb-5f61-4ccf-9337-
96f6f4acf005@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> I really cant move the batteries closer due to the fact that the power
> shed is already designed and set up for solar and wind where it
> currently is. Im only looking for 10 amps charging. I figure that 10
> amps over a 24 hour period would be more than enough to keep up with
> winter demands without installing aditional solar. My adversion to
> running wires was the voltage drop over that distance. I am pretty
> new to all this so if Im wrong, please let me know.

Fair enough.

But you can predict the voltage drops and design your wire
run to minimise the drop or at least make it acceptable.

Voltage drop is based on the resistance of the wire and the
current flowing through it.
Ohm's law gives: Votage(drop) = current * resistance.

Resistance will depend on wire length and gage.
There are tables available on the internet that will give
you the resistance per liner foot of any given wire gage.
So you use the tables to figure out your wire resistance
and plug it into the formula.

By observing the formula, you can see that reducing the
current will reduce the voltage drop. That's why you raise
the voltage. For a give amout of power you will get less
current flow at higher voltages.
Power is given as: Volts * Amps = Watts.
So given the same power (watts) you will get half the
current by doubleing the voltage. And therefor half the
voltage loss in the wire.

gomango

2008-03-19, 1:25 pm

On Mar 18, 6:28 pm, Gordon <go...@alltomyself.com> wrote:
> gomango <gomangod...@gmail.com> wrote in news:943ababb-5f61-4ccf-9337-
> 96f6f4acf...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> Fair enough.
>
> But you can predict the voltage drops and design your wire
> run to minimise the drop or at least make it acceptable.
>
> Voltage drop is based on the resistance of the wire and the
> current flowing through it.
> Ohm's law gives: Votage(drop) = current * resistance.
>
> Resistance will depend on wire length and gage.
> There are tables available on the internet that will give
> you the resistance per liner foot of any given wire gage.
> So you use the tables to figure out your wire resistance
> and plug it into the formula.
>
> By observing the formula, you can see that reducing the
> current will reduce the voltage drop. That's why you raise
> the voltage. For a give amout of power you will get less
> current flow at higher voltages.
> Power is given as: Volts * Amps = Watts.
> So given the same power (watts) you will get half the
> current by doubleing the voltage. And therefor half the
> voltage loss in the wire.

ok, I will bum a walking tape measure this weekend, and get an
accurate distance from the creek to the batteries and compare numbers
with the tables on the net. As for voltage... would it be a terrible
loss to run a transformer to step up the voltage for transmission? Or
would I be better off running direct off the generator, and then worry
about stepping down the voltage at the batteries? I haven't tested
the generator to see what it puts out yet, so I'm not sure what I'm
dealing with. When the shaft returns from the machine shop, I will
get some voltage readings off the leads at various speeds. I see that
in a lot of other micro hydro projects, there is always one form or
another of some sort of resistor that voltage is shunted to when the
system is running idle. Can someone direct me to good literature to
read up on this? I need to know why and how this is done. It must be
important if it's on all systems. I even saw a system with a base
board heater used as a resistor. Granted, these were mostly
alternator systems I saw.

gomango

2008-03-19, 1:25 pm

On Mar 18, 5:27 pm, z <z...@yada.yada.com> wrote:
> gomango <gomangod...@gmail.com> wrote innews:40a729ff-5477-49a2-b87d-e68b6e8cac59@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> heya
>
> My system is based on high pressure low flow direct drive pelton wheel
> stuck on a PMA altnerator:
>
> http://www.jeffersonfreestate.org/hh
>
> Actually a lot more work has been done on this but i've not updated. Its
> in semi-production now so i'm pretty stoked. Still have some wiring to
> do but its charging batteries. I'll update it soon.
>
> So you are probably looking at a bigger wheel of somekind thats geared
> (or pullied) up to the RPM needed ??
>
> I had thought about using the EU2000 generator to work mine but I wasn't
> smart enough or brave enough to break one down and try to figure that
> out.
>
> The PDF at the bottom of this page is pretty good intro to the various
> methods you might use for the turbine side of things:http://www.absak.com/library/micro-hydro-power-systems
>
> Also, the PMA altnernator I ended up buying has an AC output option:
>
> http://www.windbluepower.com/
>
> which is designed to allow you to send the energy over a longer distance
> without so much voltage drop. I guess they use them on wind turbines
> that are quite aways away from the battery bank which is the same problem
> you have.
>
> I didn't use this since my hydro and battery shed are in one place.
>
> best of luck man .. there's nothing like finally getting the thing to
> work and extracting energy from the combination of water and gravity!
>
> -zachary- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Z,

Thanks for the links. It's hard to get started in this because I'm not
to well educated in the basic principals and theory behind the
operation of a generator. It's not for a lack of study I assure you.
It's just a bit beyond my comprehension I guess. As I read about
the basics, I find that even the basics have prerequisites that must
be satisfied before I can even begin to understand what they are
talking about. I find myself looking up a single word, or phrase...
such as ohms law and find that even this requires a great deal of
study to understand in itself. It's a constant "two steps back" when
trying to learn all this.

I looked up your hydro plant yesterday from some earlier posts you
made, and I must say... looks like a great project. You are lucky to
have enough head to run this system. I on the other hand am not so
lucky. The house is on a hill, and the creek is just about level all
the way threw the place at the bottom of that hill, so I'm going to
need to do this without the high pressure. That's why I was figuring
on using a standard paddle wheel about 5' tall and about 4' across. I
figured that would be more than enough power with the volume that runs
threw in the winter and with the proper gearing I could get it up to
about 1200 rpm to get things turning on the business end. I will
need to figure out how to keep the paddle adjusted to the level of the
water. It's pretty dynamic in this small stream.

Ulysses

2008-03-19, 1:25 pm

"gomango" <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:943ababb-5f61-4ccf-9337-96f6f4acf005@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:04 pm, "Ulysses" <eatmys...@spamola.com/> wrote:
> "gomango" <gomangod...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c94c598e-7db5-4cb0-a5f8-7abe149e77af@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If the eu1000 is like the eu2000 then it has a 3-phase permanant magnet
> alternator that puts out up to about 240 VAC. If you are using it to
charge
> batteries then I'd think you could get by running wires to your house
> without too much voltage drop.
>
> What I did with my eu2000 PMA was to rewire the alternator from Star to
> Delta thus giving me lower voltage and higher amperage. I'm able to charge
> my 48 volt battery bank via my OutBack MX60 charge controller at 20 amps
> with the my engine barely running above idle so I'd guess that if you can
> turn it with water you might be able to get enough RPMs to make it
> practical. You might want to read some of the posts "z" wrote recently
> about his hydro system that he's working on.
>
> I still need to make some kind of regulator so my PMA voltage won't exceed
> the 141 VDC limit of my MX60. Once I do that I should be able to speed up
> my engine and get 40 amps or so. That exceeds what the eu2000 can do when
> connected to the inverter which makes me think there is a substantial loss
> going on there.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ok, Ill try to answer what I can here.

I really cant move the batteries closer due to the fact that the power
shed is already designed and set up for solar and wind where it
currently is. Im only looking for 10 amps charging. I figure that 10
amps over a 24 hour period would be more than enough to keep up with
winter demands without installing aditional solar. My adversion to
running wires was the voltage drop over that distance. I am pretty
new to all this so if Im wrong, please let me know.

Ulysses, sounds like you have a pretty good handle on these honda
generators. I actually ran a battery charger with this generator and
was able to charge at 30 amps, but that usually tapered off pretty
fast and the generator would run at an idle for quite a while. The
system is simple... (Only 2 L16's) but am trying to figure out how to
get more charging power for an upgrade to 4 surrette S-530's. Im
thinking that the usage in the winter is going to outrun the solar,
and Im not wanting to pay the fuel expense again next year. Is it
possible to rewind the generator to create an increase in voltage so
it can be transmitted to the regulator/inverter located at the power
house? If I were to do it, there would be a lot of trial and error
involved. Im not to keen on the electrical engeneering of generators.

Most of what I know about alternators I learned in the past few weeks, or at
least if finally sunk in.

The voltage output from the PMA on the eu2000 was way too high for my
purposes so I rewired the alternator coils from the Wye (Star) configuration
to the Delta configuration. On mine there are 21 coils: 3 appear to be for
the DC output and they are together--these I am not using. The 3 phases are
wound on the remaining 18 coils with each phase wound in series on every
fourth coil. At first it can be confusing but only four of the contacts are
for the AC output. The Wye configuration is joined at the middle (as seen
on the diagram in the Honda owner's manual) at one of these contacts. You
can follow the first wire on the left (you'll see what I mean if you take it
apart) and see where it goes. Once you disconnect the three joined wires
you can check with an ohmmeter and find the other end. I labeled the
beginning (left) wire 1A, 2A, 3A and the other end (previously joined) 1B,
2B, 3B. Then you simply join them 1B to 2A, 2B to 3A, and 3B to 1A. Once
rectified this gives me about 155 VDC. Still too high for my charge
controller. I had to turn down my engine speed to get it to a safe level
(below 141 VDC). The output wires from the alternator are Red, White, and
Blue on the eu2000 and hopefully the same on the eu1000. They are in a
six-pin connector that plugs into the inverter unit. These three leads are
fed into a heat-sinked six-diode rectifier and I'm using a 270 uF 300 volt
capacitor for smoothing out the ripple. I also added a 1M bleeder resistor
across the output to discharge the capacitor.

The rope starter is (was) attached with two 10mm screws. I attached a 4"
aluminum pulley in it's place. Larger than that and you'll block the
cooling vents in the flywheel (rotor). I am also using a 4" pulley on my
4HP engine but I'm going to gear it down because my voltage is still a bit
too high and the engine is at it's limit. I plan to use a 6" pulley on the
alternator (with holes drilled for heat venting) and a 1 1/2-2" pulley on
the engine. Currently I'm using a 60 watt light bulb to load the alternator
and get the voltage down to about 135 VDC. That bulb sure burns brightly at
that voltage so it could burn out at any time endanging my charge
controller. I'm planning on making a regulator with a Zener diode that will
prevent the voltage from going over the limit and allowing me to turn up the
engine speed to get a little more HP and charging current. Amazingly I'm
able to charge my 48 volt battery bank at 25 amps with the engine running
about half speed. That's about 1200 watts according to my charge controller
(OutBack MX60). The beauty about using a Zener regulator is that my charge
controller "sweeps" (MPPT) and once it determines the best voltage it locks
into that. That means a 120 volt Zener diode regulator would no longer be
active and, if I understand it correctly, would not be wasting any power
except at startup.

Depending upon how efficient and effective your water-drive system turns out
to be potentially there is more output available from your eu1000 alternator
directly than after it goes through the inverter and all those changes from
AC to DC back to AC. I momentarily had my PMA charging at 45 amps @ 53
volts. That's 2385 watts! More than the eu2000 is rated for.

In any case I don't think voltage drop from your PMA hydro system to your
charge controller etc will be an issue. A slight drop would actually be a
benefit in my case. If you have to run your DC a long distance then about
all I can suggest is very big, expensive cables.

To run my old eu2000 alternator with a belt I removed the piston, rod,
timing gear, belt, oil splasher etc and used some wheel bearing grease on
the crankshaft bearings. I tapped the four holes on the bottom of the
engine (3/8", I think) and attached two 3/4" X 6" pieces of wood so I could
mount it on a platform. I'm using a spring for belt tension but I think I
need to add a turnbuckle. I have some pictures of it on my crappy website:

http://members.dslextreme.com/users.../Index.html.HTM

At that point it was an inverter generator again. It has also been a wind
generator (for a short time). What I'm doing now seems to be the best use
(so far) of a worn-out eu2000. I'm still working on it but so far it looks
like it's going to be the best way for me to charge my batteries with an
engine.

I unerstand the conversion issues, and thought that by overpowering at
the source to compensate would fix that. Guess I might have been
thinking a bit on the overkill side. Ill check out some of the posts
that Z made and do a bit more research... If you all can think of a
good solution, please let me know. The creek is probably 25-30 feet
lower in elivation to the house, and the uphill side of the creek is
off the property, so I cant tap it as a gravity feed system.

Eeyore

2008-03-19, 1:25 pm

gomango wrote:

> I have this master plan, and I would like a bit of advice from you
> all. I have a creek about 300 yards from the house, and in the winter
> the water level is pretty good. I was trying to figure out a way to
> pipe hydro power (for charging) up to the house without running copper
> lines to attempt to save a few $$.

Well ... HYDRO power requires a head of water.

Are you planning a waterwheel ?

Why are you talking about using a compressor ? Drive a generator directly
from the water wheel. Using compressed air to transmit power is VERY
inefficient.

Graham

gomango

2008-03-19, 1:25 pm

On Mar 19, 9:22=A0am, "Ulysses" <eatmys...@spamola.com/> wrote:
> "gomango" <gomangod...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:943ababb-5f61-4ccf-9337-96f6f4acf005@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 18, 1:04 pm, "Ulysses" <eatmys...@spamola.com/> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
[color=darkred]
>
[color=darkred]
>
>
>
> charge
>
ge[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
n[color=darkred]
>
ed[color=darkred]
p[color=darkred]
n[color=darkred]
ss[color=darkred]
>
>
> Ok, Ill try to answer what I can here.
>
> I really cant move the batteries closer due to the fact that the power
> shed is already designed and set up for solar and wind where it
> currently is. =A0Im only looking for 10 amps charging. =A0I figure that 10=

> amps over a 24 hour period would be more than enough to keep up with
> winter demands without installing aditional solar. =A0My adversion to
> running wires was the voltage drop over that distance. =A0I am pretty
> new to all this so if Im wrong, please let me know.
>
> Ulysses, =A0sounds like you have a pretty good handle on these honda
> generators. =A0I actually ran a battery charger with this generator and
> was able to charge at 30 amps, but that usually tapered off pretty
> fast and the generator would run at an idle for quite a while. =A0The
> system is simple... (Only 2 L16's) but am trying to figure out how to
> get more charging power for an upgrade to 4 surrette S-530's. =A0Im
> thinking that the usage in the winter is going to outrun the solar,
> and Im not wanting to pay the fuel expense again next year. =A0 Is it
> possible to rewind the generator to create an increase in voltage so
> it can be transmitted to the regulator/inverter located at the =A0power
> house? =A0If I were to do it, there would be a lot of trial and error
> involved. =A0Im not to keen on the electrical engeneering of generators.
>
> Most of what I know about alternators I learned in the past few weeks, or =
at
> least if finally sunk in.
>
> The voltage output from the PMA on the eu2000 was way too high for my
> purposes so I rewired the alternator coils from the Wye (Star) configurati=
on
> to the Delta configuration. =A0On mine there are 21 coils: 3 appear to be =
for
> the DC output and they are together--these I am not using. =A0The 3 phases=
are
> wound on the remaining 18 coils with each phase wound in series on every
> fourth coil. =A0At first it can be confusing but only four of the contacts=
are
> for the AC output. =A0The Wye configuration is joined at the middle (as se=
en
> on the diagram in the Honda owner's manual) at one of these contacts. =A0Y=
ou
> can follow the first wire on the left (you'll see what I mean if you take =
it
> apart) and see where it goes. =A0Once you disconnect the three joined wire=
s
> you can check with an ohmmeter and find the other end. =A0I labeled the
> beginning (left) wire 1A, 2A, 3A and the other end (previously joined) 1B,=

> 2B, 3B. =A0Then you simply join them 1B to 2A, 2B to 3A, and 3B to 1A. =A0=
Once
> rectified this gives me about 155 VDC. =A0Still too high for my charge
> controller. =A0I had to turn down my engine speed to get it to a safe leve=
l
> (below 141 VDC). =A0The output wires from the alternator are Red, White, a=
nd
> Blue on the eu2000 and hopefully the same on the eu1000. =A0They are in a
> six-pin connector that plugs into the inverter unit. =A0These three leads =
are
> fed into a heat-sinked six-diode rectifier and I'm using a 270 uF 300 volt=

> capacitor for smoothing out the ripple. =A0I also added a 1M bleeder resis=
tor
> across the output to discharge the capacitor.
>
> The rope starter is (was) attached with two 10mm screws. =A0I attached a 4=
"
> aluminum pulley in it's place. =A0Larger than that and you'll block the
> cooling vents in the flywheel (rotor). =A0I am also using a 4" pulley on m=
y
> 4HP engine but I'm going to gear it down because my voltage is still a bit=

> too high and the engine is at it's limit. =A0I plan to use a 6" pulley on =
the
> alternator (with holes drilled for heat venting) and a 1 1/2-2" pulley on
> the engine. =A0Currently I'm using a 60 watt light bulb to load the altern=
ator
> and get the voltage down to about 135 VDC. =A0That bulb sure burns brightl=
y at
> that voltage so it could burn out at any time endanging my charge
> controller. =A0I'm planning on making a regulator with a Zener diode that =
will
> prevent the voltage from going over the limit and allowing me to turn up t=
he
> engine speed to get a little more HP and charging current. =A0Amazingly I'=
m
> able to charge my 48 volt battery bank at 25 amps with the engine running
> about half speed. =A0That's about 1200 watts according to my charge contro=
ller
> (OutBack MX60). =A0The beauty about using a Zener regulator is that my cha=
rge
> controller "sweeps" (MPPT) and once it determines the best voltage it lock=
s
> into that. =A0That means a 120 volt Zener diode regulator would no longer =
be
> active and, if I understand it correctly, would not be wasting any power
> except at startup.
>
> Depending upon how efficient and effective your water-drive system turns o=
ut
> to be potentially there is more output available from your eu1000 alternat=
or
> directly than after it goes through the inverter and all those changes fro=
m
> AC to DC back to AC. =A0I momentarily had my PMA charging at 45 amps @ 53
> volts. =A0That's 2385 watts! =A0More than the eu2000 is rated for.
>
> In any case I don't think voltage drop from your PMA hydro system to your
> charge controller etc will be an issue. =A0A slight drop would actually be=
a
> benefit in my case. =A0If you have to run your DC a long distance then abo=
ut
> all I can suggest is very big, expensive cables.
>
> To run my old eu2000 alternator with a belt I removed the piston, rod,
> timing gear, belt, oil splasher etc and used some wheel bearing grease on
> the crankshaft bearings. =A0I tapped the four holes on the bottom of the
> engine (3/8", I think) and attached two 3/4" X 6" pieces of wood so I coul=
d
> mount it on a platform. =A0I'm using a spring for belt tension but I think=
I
> need to add a turnbuckle. =A0I have some pictures of it on my crappy websi=
te:
>
> http://members.dslextreme.com/users.../Index.html.HTM
>
> At that point it was an inverter generator again. =A0It has also been a wi=
nd
> generator (for a short time). =A0What I'm doing now seems to be the best u=
se
> (so far) of a worn-out eu2000. =A0I'm still working on it but so far it lo=
oks
> like it's going to be the best way for me to charge my batteries with an
> engine.
>
> I unerstand the conversion issues, and thought that by overpowering at
> the source to compensate would fix that. =A0Guess I might have been
> thinking a bit on the overkill side. =A0Ill check out some of the posts
> that Z made and do a bit more research... If you all can think of a
> good solution, please let me know. =A0The creek is probably 25-30 feet
> lower in elivation to the house, and the uphill side of the creek is
> off the property, so I cant tap it as a gravity feed system.- Hide quoted =
text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Very nice Ulysses. Im going to get some pictures posted of the
project as I go. Im going to need to figure out the windings on this
smaller PMA. Where and how did the information that sunk in come
from? To me it looks like a bunch of coils, and a mess of wires. I
need to identify with star and delta as if I were a 4 year old at this
point.

The outback system caught my eye a couple years ago. Currently Im
using a trace charge controller and Xantrax inverter to power
everything. Im not totally sure what MPPT technology does for a
controller, but Ive read a bit about it. The trace does not employ
it currently.

Anthony Matonak

2008-03-19, 1:25 pm

gomango wrote:
> ... The house is on a hill, and the creek is just about level all
> the way threw the place at the bottom of that hill, so I'm going to
> need to do this without the high pressure. That's why I was figuring
> on using a standard paddle wheel about 5' tall and about 4' across. I
> figured that would be more than enough power with the volume that runs
> threw in the winter and with the proper gearing I could get it up to
> about 1200 rpm to get things turning on the business end. I will
> need to figure out how to keep the paddle adjusted to the level of the
> water. It's pretty dynamic in this small stream.

It sounds like what you need is an undershot water wheel mounted
on a raft.

Anthony

gomango

2008-03-19, 5:25 pm

On Mar 19, 10:12=A0am, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> gomango wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
> It sounds like what you need is an undershot water wheel mounted
> on a raft.
>
> Anthony

yeah... thats what I was thinking. Wide and tall so it has lots of
torque to convert to RPM's

gomango

2008-03-19, 5:25 pm

On Mar 19, 10:00=A0am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> gomango wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
> Well ... HYDRO power requires a head of water.
>
> Are you planning a waterwheel ?
>
> Why are you talking about using a compressor ? Drive a generator directly
> from the water wheel. Using compressed air to transmit power is VERY
> inefficient.
>
> Graham

Well Graham,

Thats why I posted in here before I undertook the project. To get a
feel for the general direction. Air seemed like a good idea at first,
but is looking quite grim now. I am beyond that now, and looking into
another option. I didnt realize that it would be that inefficient.

2008-03-19, 5:25 pm

gomango <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in news:48dcae5c-3104-4b03-a1d0-
4d306fee6aae@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 19, 10:12_am, Anthony Matonak
> <anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
figuring[color=darkred]
_I[color=darkred]
>
runs[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
>
> yeah... thats what I was thinking. Wide and tall so it has lots of
> torque to convert to RPM's
>

I have a pretty big creek on my place and a cable foot bridge going over
it. I had a similar idea of building some kind of larger water wheel on
a couple of surf boards hooked to a cable centered in the river, or
something like that. The creek can rise 20 feet in a big storm though..
so id' have to be very very secure or it'd end up down stream and
destroyed.

I've seen other setups where they build a little dam with a spillway that
feeds a wheel.. this keeps the flow constant and when the water gets
higher it just flows out an overflow kind of thing.

I know what you mean about the jargon ... when I started this project I
had done a LOT of reading but was a hydro virgin bigtime. I made quite a
few mistakes .. nothing too serious, but just time wasters and dumb
things.

But when it comes to re-wiring the generator on the EU2000 .. thats all
vodoo magic to me. Sounds cool though -- wish i'd taken some electrical
enineering in school damn it. I have one with a dead engine too.. one of
these days maybe

let us know how it goes man!

-zachary

Eeyore

2008-03-19, 5:25 pm

gomango wrote:

> On Mar 19, 10:00 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Well Graham,
>
> Thats why I posted in here before I undertook the project. To get a
> feel for the general direction. Air seemed like a good idea at first,
> but is looking quite grim now. I am beyond that now, and looking into
> another option. I didnt realize that it would be that inefficient.

Understood. Good luck with it.

Just my own observation. Most ordinary cable is good for 250V or so as opposed
to the 12 or 24V ? of your batteries.

If you have an AC generator, it's very easy to step the voltage up for
efficient transmission of the power from the waterwheel to power shed. 10 times
the voltage = 1/10 the current = 1/100 th the power loss for a given cable
gauge.

Even with DC it's very much worthwhile using a simple inverter type solution to
do the same.

Graham

You

2008-03-19, 5:25 pm

In article <47E16FA7.B1589F1D@hotmail.com>,
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Just my own observation. Most ordinary cable is good for 250V or so as opposed
> to the 12 or 24V ? of your batteries.

I don't know where you live but here in the USA, just about ANY
Electrical Utility Wire that is UL Rated, will have a 600V
Insulation Rating......

gomango

2008-03-19, 5:25 pm

On Mar 19, 12:55=A0pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> gomango wrote:
nter[color=darkred]
to[color=darkred]
er[color=darkred]
>
>
>
tly[color=darkred]
>
>
>
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
>
> Understood. Good luck with it.
>
> Just my own observation. Most ordinary cable is good for 250V or so as opp=
osed
> to the 12 or 24V ? of your batteries.
>
> If you have an AC generator, it's very easy to step the voltage up for
> efficient transmission of the power from the waterwheel to power shed. 10 =
times
> the voltage =3D 1/10 the current =3D 1/100 th the power loss for a given c=
able
> gauge.
>
> Even with DC it's very much worthwhile using a simple inverter type soluti=
on to
> do the same.
>
> Graham- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Im still trying to understand all this, but I think its sinking in. I
thank all of you who took the time to answer my questions and give
advice on the design. From here I just need to do a bit of measuring
and math to figure out the size and length of the wire, but I think I
need to know what the PMA from the honda puts out first. Im going to
take a no load measurement of voltage at various RPM's when the
machine shop has the flywheel shaft built. Untill then...

Dave

Gordon

2008-03-20, 3:25 am

gomango <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in news:9cbe0b44-5680-42c1-a580-
8a8ed045ddab@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> ok, I will bum a walking tape measure this weekend, and get an
> accurate distance from the creek to the batteries and compare numbers
> with the tables on the net. As for voltage... would it be a terrible
> loss to run a transformer to step up the voltage for transmission? Or
> would I be better off running direct off the generator, and then worry
> about stepping down the voltage at the batteries?

Short answer is to generate the voltage as high as possible and
reduce it at the batteries. That may not be easy with hydro.
THe decision to use a transformer at the generator may be
forced out of necessity. Remember you have to be generating
AC to use a transformer.

Vaughn Simon

2008-03-20, 9:25 am

"Gordon" <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A66CB372ECDEgreederxprtnet@199.45.49.11...
>Remember you have to be generating AC to use a transformer.

But the OP is using a three phase alternator which operates at some unknown
frequency. So now you need either two suitable 3 phase transformers or 6
suitable single phase transformers. Given that we are only talking about 1 KW
and the OP has mentioned that he is not an electrical engineer, simply using the
thickest cable possible sounds like the only practical solution. I would shop
for the twisted aluminum duplex service cable like the power company probably
has connected from your house to their power pole.

Vaughn

gomango

2008-03-20, 1:26 pm

On Mar 20, 3:16=A0am, "Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESS...@att.FAKE.net>
wrote:
> "Gordon" <go...@alltomyself.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9A66CB372ECDEgreederxprtnet@199.45.49.11...
>
>
> =A0 =A0But the OP is using a three phase alternator which operates at some=
unknown
> frequency. =A0So now you need either two suitable 3 phase transformers or =
6
> suitable single phase transformers. =A0Given that we are only talking abou=
t 1 KW
> and the OP has mentioned that he is not an electrical engineer, simply usi=
ng the
> thickest cable possible sounds like the only practical solution. =A0I woul=
d shop
> for the twisted aluminum duplex service cable like the power company proba=
bly
> has connected from your house to their power pole.
>
> Vaughn

I know a couple electricians... Ill pick their brain and see if there
is a good way to step this up at the source for a small investment.
These guys work on the crushers at work and deal with 408V3ph all
day. They might even have a few junk components that might work
pretty well.

gomango

2008-03-20, 1:26 pm

On Mar 20, 3:16=A0am, "Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESS...@att.FAKE.net>
wrote:
> "Gordon" <go...@alltomyself.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9A66CB372ECDEgreederxprtnet@199.45.49.11...
>
>
> =A0 =A0But the OP is using a three phase alternator which operates at some=
unknown
> frequency. =A0So now you need either two suitable 3 phase transformers or =
6
> suitable single phase transformers. =A0Given that we are only talking abou=
t 1 KW
> and the OP has mentioned that he is not an electrical engineer, simply usi=
ng the
> thickest cable possible sounds like the only practical solution. =A0I woul=
d shop
> for the twisted aluminum duplex service cable like the power company proba=
bly
> has connected from your house to their power pole.
>
> Vaughn

A few questions....

1) does a PMA increase voltage with speed?
2) does a PMA heat up and require cooling?
3) is higher frequency AC harder to work with? Such as transformers,
and rectifiers?
4) am I spinning my wheels here?

Ulysses

2008-03-20, 1:26 pm

"z" <z@yada.yada.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A667E0ECE41Czyadayadayada@216.196.97.131...
> gomango <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in news:48dcae5c-3104-4b03-a1d0-
> 4d306fee6aae@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
>
> figuring
> I
> runs
> the
>
> I have a pretty big creek on my place and a cable foot bridge going over
> it. I had a similar idea of building some kind of larger water wheel on
> a couple of surf boards hooked to a cable centered in the river, or
> something like that. The creek can rise 20 feet in a big storm though..
> so id' have to be very very secure or it'd end up down stream and
> destroyed.
>
> I've seen other setups where they build a little dam with a spillway that
> feeds a wheel.. this keeps the flow constant and when the water gets
> higher it just flows out an overflow kind of thing.
>
> I know what you mean about the jargon ... when I started this project I
> had done a LOT of reading but was a hydro virgin bigtime. I made quite a
> few mistakes .. nothing too serious, but just time wasters and dumb
> things.
>
> But when it comes to re-wiring the generator on the EU2000 .. thats all
> vodoo magic to me. Sounds cool though -- wish i'd taken some electrical
> enineering in school damn it. I have one with a dead engine too.. one of
> these days maybe

It can't be THAT hard. After all, I did it ;-)

I just stare at wiring diagrams and read old posts from Neon John and others
and sooner or later it makes sense. Usually.

I did my trial run with my converted eu2000 last night and got my battery
bank fully charged via my MX60 charge controller. It was charging at a
nice, constant 26.4 amps then suddenly started charging at 20 amps. Later
on it started "sweeping" and I thought I told it not to. It's gonna take me
a while to get to know the MX60. It's not like what I'm used to. Now that
I'm past (hopefully) all of the gear ratios and mechanical assembly stuff
and belt tensioners and it runs without falling apart it's time to get some
proper bridge rectifiers and heat sinks and such. I built the rectifer from
"junk box" stuff and one of the diodes is kinda small...

>
> let us know how it goes man!
>
> -zachary
>
>
>

Ulysses

2008-03-20, 1:26 pm

"gomango" <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4711d5f8-cf1f-4418-909f-800fc7204c32@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 3:16 am, "Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESS...@att.FAKE.net>
wrote:
> "Gordon" <go...@alltomyself.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9A66CB372ECDEgreederxprtnet@199.45.49.11...
>
>
> But the OP is using a three phase alternator which operates at some
unknown
> frequency. So now you need either two suitable 3 phase transformers or 6
> suitable single phase transformers. Given that we are only talking about 1
KW
> and the OP has mentioned that he is not an electrical engineer, simply
using the
> thickest cable possible sounds like the only practical solution. I would
shop
> for the twisted aluminum duplex service cable like the power company
probably
> has connected from your house to their power pole.
>
> Vaughn

A few questions....

1) does a PMA increase voltage with speed?
2) does a PMA heat up and require cooling?
3) is higher frequency AC harder to work with? Such as transformers,
and rectifiers?
4) am I spinning my wheels here?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes--Neon John (regular poster here) warned me about using regular 60 Hz
transformers concerning exactly what you are doing. There are 3-Phase
transformers but they tend to be expensive.
4) The idea seems to be to spin the water wheel so Yes.

As for #2 I had to use a 6" pulley on my rotor to get the right gear ratio.
This covered the existing vent holes on the rotor so I had to drill a bunch
of holes in the pulley. As I mentioned elsewhere my charge rate suddenly
dropped about 20% at one point. This may have been due to any of many
factors and I'm not ruling out overheating. The pulley and rotor did not,
however, seem to be too hot. Maybe I popped a diode or maybe my charge
controller is supposed to do that. With my setup the rotor is well-exposed
so it's getting a lot of air.

In order to get enough voltage from your eu1000 PMA you need to get enough
RPMs. From what you described it sounds like a wide paddle-wheel should
have enough torque to drive your alternator geared up for more speed.

Ulysses

2008-03-20, 1:26 pm

"gomango" <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c36664e-09b4-4d57-9464-9f71f5c40c13@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 19, 9:22 am, "Ulysses" <eatmys...@spamola.com/> wrote:
> "gomango" <gomangod...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:943ababb-5f61-4ccf-9337-96f6f4acf005@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 18, 1:04 pm, "Ulysses" <eatmys...@spamola.com/> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> charge
>
charge[color=darkred]
can[color=darkred]
>
exceed[color=darkred]
up[color=darkred]
when[color=darkred]
loss[color=darkred]
>
>
> Ok, Ill try to answer what I can here.
>
> I really cant move the batteries closer due to the fact that the power
> shed is already designed and set up for solar and wind where it
> currently is. Im only looking for 10 amps charging. I figure that 10
> amps over a 24 hour period would be more than enough to keep up with
> winter demands without installing aditional solar. My adversion to
> running wires was the voltage drop over that distance. I am pretty
> new to all this so if Im wrong, please let me know.
>
> Ulysses, sounds like you have a pretty good handle on these honda
> generators. I actually ran a battery charger with this generator and
> was able to charge at 30 amps, but that usually tapered off pretty
> fast and the generator would run at an idle for quite a while. The
> system is simple... (Only 2 L16's) but am trying to figure out how to
> get more charging power for an upgrade to 4 surrette S-530's. Im
> thinking that the usage in the winter is going to outrun the solar,
> and Im not wanting to pay the fuel expense again next year. Is it
> possible to rewind the generator to create an increase in voltage so
> it can be transmitted to the regulator/inverter located at the power
> house? If I were to do it, there would be a lot of trial and error
> involved. Im not to keen on the electrical engeneering of generators.
>
> Most of what I know about alternators I learned in the past few weeks, or
at
> least if finally sunk in.
>
> The voltage output from the PMA on the eu2000 was way too high for my
> purposes so I rewired the alternator coils from the Wye (Star)
configuration
> to the Delta configuration. On mine there are 21 coils: 3 appear to be for
> the DC output and they are together--these I am not using. The 3 phases
are
> wound on the remaining 18 coils with each phase wound in series on every
> fourth coil. At first it can be confusing but only four of the contacts
are
> for the AC output. The Wye configuration is joined at the middle (as seen
> on the diagram in the Honda owner's manual) at one of these contacts. You
> can follow the first wire on the left (you'll see what I mean if you take
it
> apart) and see where it goes. Once you disconnect the three joined wires
> you can check with an ohmmeter and find the other end. I labeled the
> beginning (left) wire 1A, 2A, 3A and the other end (previously joined) 1B,
> 2B, 3B. Then you simply join them 1B to 2A, 2B to 3A, and 3B to 1A. Once
> rectified this gives me about 155 VDC. Still too high for my charge
> controller. I had to turn down my engine speed to get it to a safe level
> (below 141 VDC). The output wires from the alternator are Red, White, and
> Blue on the eu2000 and hopefully the same on the eu1000. They are in a
> six-pin connector that plugs into the inverter unit. These three leads are
> fed into a heat-sinked six-diode rectifier and I'm using a 270 uF 300 volt
> capacitor for smoothing out the ripple. I also added a 1M bleeder resistor
> across the output to discharge the capacitor.
>
> The rope starter is (was) attached with two 10mm screws. I attached a 4"
> aluminum pulley in it's place. Larger than that and you'll block the
> cooling vents in the flywheel (rotor). I am also using a 4" pulley on my
> 4HP engine but I'm going to gear it down because my voltage is still a bit
> too high and the engine is at it's limit. I plan to use a 6" pulley on the
> alternator (with holes drilled for heat venting) and a 1 1/2-2" pulley on
> the engine. Currently I'm using a 60 watt light bulb to load the
alternator
> and get the voltage down to about 135 VDC. That bulb sure burns brightly
at
> that voltage so it could burn out at any time endanging my charge
> controller. I'm planning on making a regulator with a Zener diode that
will
> prevent the voltage from going over the limit and allowing me to turn up
the
> engine speed to get a little more HP and charging current. Amazingly I'm
> able to charge my 48 volt battery bank at 25 amps with the engine running
> about half speed. That's about 1200 watts according to my charge
controller
> (OutBack MX60). The beauty about using a Zener regulator is that my charge
> controller "sweeps" (MPPT) and once it determines the best voltage it
locks
> into that. That means a 120 volt Zener diode regulator would no longer be
> active and, if I understand it correctly, would not be wasting any power
> except at startup.
>
> Depending upon how efficient and effective your water-drive system turns
out
> to be potentially there is more output available from your eu1000
alternator
> directly than after it goes through the inverter and all those changes
from
> AC to DC back to AC. I momentarily had my PMA charging at 45 amps @ 53
> volts. That's 2385 watts! More than the eu2000 is rated for.
>
> In any case I don't think voltage drop from your PMA hydro system to your
> charge controller etc will be an issue. A slight drop would actually be a
> benefit in my case. If you have to run your DC a long distance then about
> all I can suggest is very big, expensive cables.
>
> To run my old eu2000 alternator with a belt I removed the piston, rod,
> timing gear, belt, oil splasher etc and used some wheel bearing grease on
> the crankshaft bearings. I tapped the four holes on the bottom of the
> engine (3/8", I think) and attached two 3/4" X 6" pieces of wood so I
could
> mount it on a platform. I'm using a spring for belt tension but I think I
> need to add a turnbuckle. I have some pictures of it on my crappy website:
>
> http://members.dslextreme.com/users.../Index.html.HTM
>
> At that point it was an inverter generator again. It has also been a wind
> generator (for a short time). What I'm doing now seems to be the best use
> (so far) of a worn-out eu2000. I'm still working on it but so far it looks
> like it's going to be the best way for me to charge my batteries with an
> engine.
>
> I unerstand the conversion issues, and thought that by overpowering at
> the source to compensate would fix that. Guess I might have been
> thinking a bit on the overkill side. Ill check out some of the posts
> that Z made and do a bit more research... If you all can think of a
> good solution, please let me know. The creek is probably 25-30 feet
> lower in elivation to the house, and the uphill side of the creek is
> off the property, so I cant tap it as a gravity feed system.- Hide quoted
text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Very nice Ulysses. Im going to get some pictures posted of the
project as I go. Im going to need to figure out the windings on this
smaller PMA. Where and how did the information that sunk in come
from? To me it looks like a bunch of coils, and a mess of wires. I
need to identify with star and delta as if I were a 4 year old at this
point.

Here's some scary stuff you can look at:

http://oljeep.com/gw/alt/Alternator_Theory.html (maybe too much info here)

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm (shows Delta and Wye
diagrams)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator (this one has more links at the
bottom and links to definitions within the text)

It IS a bunch of wires and coils. Figuring out which wire goes with which
coil is not difficult. Above I think I said "every fourth coil" but it's
only the fourth when you start. I should have said "every third coil."

The outback system caught my eye a couple years ago. Currently Im
using a trace charge controller and Xantrax inverter to power
everything. Im not totally sure what MPPT technology does for a
controller, but Ive read a bit about it. The trace does not employ
it currently.

I'll let you know when I figure out how it's supposed to work. Basically,
from my understanding, the MPPT looks at the voltage and amperage available
and comes up with the best combination of the two (for battery charging) and
locks it in thus giving you the most watts available and still making the
voltage high enough for Absorb and Equalization charging.

I think the OutBack inverters and the system in general is great. I think
their built-in battery chargers need a lot of work. Trace/Xantrex seems to
have a very good reputation except when it comes to customer service. If
I'm not mistaken you can parallel the outputs of the inverter and a
generator to give you more output. OutBack uses an automatic transfer
switch so when you connect a generator it switches off the inverter output.
I do not like this feature.

Meanwhile, we are beginning to see more worn-out Honda Inverter Generators
and folks like us figuring out uses for them. I'll bet Honda is thrilled
that nobody seems to be actually repairing them and using them as
intended--they will sell more generators this way. I wonder if they are
watching us now.....

I should mention that with my 4" pulley the original 10mm screws held just
fine but once I attached a 6" pulley they kept coming loose. I retapped the
10mm threads 1/4" 24 tpi and inserted carriage bolts from the inside of the
rotor (carriage bolts are pretty flat and won't hit anything while turning).
I used lock washers AND lock nuts and glue on the nuts and I'm going to
drill holes in the bolts and add cotter pins because I sure as hell don't
want those bolts coming loose and destroying my coils.

Ulysses

2008-03-20, 1:26 pm

"gomango" <gomangodave@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3dfd8fe3-64d8-4953-9853-8cb7602c755e@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 19, 12:55 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> gomango wrote:
winter[color=darkred]
copper[color=darkred]
>
>
>
directly[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
> Understood. Good luck with it.
>
> Just my own observation. Most ordinary cable is good for 250V or so as
opposed
> to the 12 or 24V ? of your batteries.
>
> If you have an AC generator, it's very easy to step the voltage up for
> efficient transmission of the power from the waterwheel to power shed. 10
times
> the voltage = 1/10 the current = 1/100 th the power loss for a given cable
> gauge.
>
> Even with DC it's very much worthwhile using a simple inverter type
solution to
> do the same.
>
> Graham- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Im still trying to understand all this, but I think its sinking in. I
thank all of you who took the time to answer my questions and give
advice on the design. From here I just need to do a bit of measuring
and math to figure out the size and length of the wire, but I think I
need to know what the PMA from the honda puts out first. Im going to
take a no load measurement of voltage at various RPM's when the
machine shop has the flywheel shaft built. Untill then...

Once you know the output of two of the wires you can calculate the total
output by multiplying that by the square root of 3 (1.732). Once you
rectify it and use a smoothing capacitor you just read it with a DC
voltmeter. BTW the 3 Phase Basics link shows two different ways to convert
it to DC. Either will work with Delta or Wye. The bridge rectifiers tend
to be a little neater and it's pretty easy to find them with the proper
current and voltage range. Make sure you use heat sinks. Those six diodes
may look complicated but it's just three sets of two diodes connected in
series and then joined at the ends. You simply connect each of the three
outputs leads between one of each of the two series diodes. The top (if you
have the bands on the diodes at the top) is now Positive and bottom is
Negative. Connect a polarized (DC) capacitor from Positive to Negative
(the stripe on the capacitor is Negative). Make sure it 's rated for 300
volts or higher. I'm using a 270 uF capacitor but 100 uF might be enough.

Dave

Gordon

2008-03-20, 8:26 pm

"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.FAKE.net> wrote in
news:6QqEj.25988$D_3.14402@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
> "Gordon" <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A66CB372ECDEgreederxprtnet@199.45.49.11...
>
> But the OP is using a three phase alternator which operates at some
> unknown
> frequency. So now you need either two suitable 3 phase transformers
> or 6 suitable single phase transformers. Given that we are only
> talking about 1 KW and the OP has mentioned that he is not an
> electrical engineer, simply using the thickest cable possible sounds
> like the only practical solution. I would shop for the twisted
> aluminum duplex service cable like the power company probably has
> connected from your house to their power pole.
>
> Vaughn
>
>

Yea. I forgot exactly what the OP was using for a generator.
First step is to see if a reasonable run of wire from the
stream to the batteries is possible with an acceptable voltage
loss. Stepping up the voltage for transmission should be
attempted only if necessary.

One inexpensive way to step up the voltage would be to generate
12volts. Then use a small inverter at the stream to step up to
110 volts. Send that up the wire. I believe that the OP said
that he had a generator. That means he has an unput that can
use the 110 directly, no reduction needed at the power shed.

Daniel Who Wants to Know

2008-03-21, 8:25 pm

"Ulysses" <eatmyspam@spamola.com/> wrote in message
news:13u5727p335la64@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> Very nice Ulysses. Im going to get some pictures posted of the
> project as I go. Im going to need to figure out the windings on this
> smaller PMA. Where and how did the information that sunk in come
> from? To me it looks like a bunch of coils, and a mess of wires. I
> need to identify with star and delta as if I were a 4 year old at this
> point.
>
> Here's some scary stuff you can look at:
>
> http://oljeep.com/gw/alt/Alternator_Theory.html (maybe too much info here)
>
> http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm (shows Delta and Wye
> diagrams)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator (this one has more links at the
> bottom and links to definitions within the text)
>
> It IS a bunch of wires and coils. Figuring out which wire goes with which
> coil is not difficult. Above I think I said "every fourth coil" but it's
> only the fourth when you start. I should have said "every third coil."
>
>
> The outback system caught my eye a couple years ago. Currently Im
> using a trace charge controller and Xantrax inverter to power
> everything. Im not totally sure what MPPT technology does for a
> controller, but Ive read a bit about it. The trace does not employ
> it currently.
>
> I'll let you know when I figure out how it's supposed to work. Basically,
> from my understanding, the MPPT looks at the voltage and amperage
> available
> and comes up with the best combination of the two (for battery charging)
> and
> locks it in thus giving you the most watts available and still making the
> voltage high enough for Absorb and Equalization charging.
>
> I think the OutBack inverters and the system in general is great. I think
> their built-in battery chargers need a lot of work. Trace/Xantrex seems
> to
> have a very good reputation except when it comes to customer service. If
> I'm not mistaken you can parallel the outputs of the inverter and a
> generator to give you more output. OutBack uses an automatic transfer
> switch so when you connect a generator it switches off the inverter
> output.
> I do not like this feature.
>
> Meanwhile, we are beginning to see more worn-out Honda Inverter Generators
> and folks like us figuring out uses for them. I'll bet Honda is thrilled
> that nobody seems to be actually repairing them and using them as
> intended--they will sell more generators this way. I wonder if they are
> watching us now.....
>
> I should mention that with my 4" pulley the original 10mm screws held just
> fine but once I attached a 6" pulley they kept coming loose. I retapped
> the
> 10mm threads 1/4" 24 tpi and inserted carriage bolts from the inside of
> the
> rotor (carriage bolts are pretty flat and won't hit anything while
> turning).
> I used lock washers AND lock nuts and glue on the nuts and I'm going to
> drill holes in the bolts and add cotter pins because I sure as hell don't
> want those bolts coming loose and destroying my coils.
>
>

I don't own any generator let alone a Honda inverter model but I can tell
you that there will be either 3 or 4 wires coming out that used to go to the
inverter unit. If there are 4 and 1 of them is attached to 3 strands of
magnet wire while the other 3 are attached to only 1 strand then it is
star/wye wound. If there are 3 wires and each only has 1 strand attached to
it there will be a star point somewhere in the windings where the other 3
ends are attached to each other. If there are only 3 wires coming out and
each is attached to 2 strands of the magnet wire it is delta.

Note that each winding may be made up of more than 1 strand in parallel so
you might find for example a star point with 6, 9, 12, etc strands joined
while the wires are each attached to 1/3rd of that number which would be 2,
3, or 4 each respectively.

gomango

2008-04-03, 1:26 pm

On Mar 21, 4:20=A0pm, "Daniel Who Wants to Know"
<danielthechs...@merrychristmasi.com> wrote:
> "Ulysses" <eatmys...@spamola.com/> wrote in message
>
> news:13u5727p335la64@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[color=darkred]
>
>
[color=darkred]
>
>
[color=darkred]
>
hich[color=darkred]
t's[color=darkred]
"[color=darkred]
>
>
lly,[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
e[color=darkred]
>
hink[color=darkred]
ms[color=darkred]
=A0If[color=darkred]
r[color=darkred]
>
rs[color=darkred]
led[color=darkred]
re[color=darkred]
>
st[color=darkred]
ed[color=darkred]
t[color=darkred]
>
> I don't own any generator let alone a Honda inverter model but I can tell
> you that there will be either 3 or 4 wires coming out that used to go to t=
he
> inverter unit. =A0If there are 4 and 1 of them is attached to 3 strands of=

> magnet wire while the other 3 are attached to only 1 strand then it is
> star/wye wound. =A0If there are 3 wires and each only has 1 strand attache=
d to
> it there will be a star point somewhere in the windings where the other 3
> ends are attached to each other. =A0If there are only 3 wires coming out a=
nd
> each is attached to 2 strands of the magnet wire it is delta.
>
> Note that each winding may be made up of more than 1 strand in parallel so=

> you might find for example a star point with 6, 9, 12, etc strands joined
> while the wires are each attached to 1/3rd of that number which would be 2=
,
> 3, or 4 each respectively.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

ok, when looking at the coils and going clockwise.... coils 1,2,3 are
single post on one end, and wired in series as follows.
1+4+7+10+13+16, 2+5+8+11+14+17, 3+6+9+12+15+18. The final coils
16,17,18 leg out as a common post. This would indicate Y as far as I
can tell. Im not to sure on the phase or how to tell. Im still
reading up on it when I get some time.

LinkBot