Home Cleaning - Re: True that washing machines in many parts of the world don't heat the washwater?

Author

Re: True that washing machines in many parts of the world don't heat the washwater?

0tterbot

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

"Charles Self" <karl.self@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:23eb2f6b-db43-4b4d-a565-6d0296b00d21@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
OK, here's the pitch: here in Germany all washing machines have
heating rods which heat the washwater to temperatures from 20 to 95° C
(= 70-200° F), with most of the washing done at 30 or 60° C (90-140°
F).
The other day I heard a radio feature that most modern detergents work
well already at 20° C (i. e. normal room temperature), that the notion
that only hot washes were thorough was antiquated, and so much so that
in many parts of the world, such as Australia or the US, washing
machines wouldn't even possess heating rods at all, and just used
water at tap temperature.
So is that the truth, Ruth?
I'd specifically like to hear from Yanks and Ozzies, thanks.

australian person here:
yes, hot washes are mostly a thing of the past - cold washes work perfectly
well for most things & that's what people mostly do.

however, if you want or need to do a hot wash, you just set the machine for
a hot wash, to fill from the hot tap instead of the cold tap. a few
households (e.g. mine) only have a cold laundry tap so that's not possible,
but that's a bit uncommon too to only have one tap.

frankly, a machine that heats the water is the most odd thing i have heard
of for a while! not least because i was under the impression that germany is
a rather ecologically-responsible nation.
kylie

Mrs Bonk

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

0tterbot wrote:
> "Charles Self" <karl.self@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:23eb2f6b-db43-4b4d-a565-6d0296b00d21@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> OK, here's the pitch: here in Germany all washing machines have
> heating rods which heat the washwater to temperatures from 20 to 95° C
> (= 70-200° F), with most of the washing done at 30 or 60° C (90-140°
> F).
> The other day I heard a radio feature that most modern detergents work
> well already at 20° C (i. e. normal room temperature), that the notion
> that only hot washes were thorough was antiquated, and so much so that
> in many parts of the world, such as Australia or the US, washing
> machines wouldn't even possess heating rods at all, and just used
> water at tap temperature.
> So is that the truth, Ruth?
> I'd specifically like to hear from Yanks and Ozzies, thanks.
>
> australian person here:
> yes, hot washes are mostly a thing of the past - cold washes work
> perfectly well for most things & that's what people mostly do.
>
> however, if you want or need to do a hot wash, you just set the machine
> for a hot wash, to fill from the hot tap instead of the cold tap. a few
> households (e.g. mine) only have a cold laundry tap so that's not
> possible, but that's a bit uncommon too to only have one tap.
>
> frankly, a machine that heats the water is the most odd thing i have heard
> of for a while! not least because i was under the impression that germany
> is a rather ecologically-responsible nation.

I am not Australian or American but I am tagging along on this thread
anyway. I am amazed that a machine that heats water is as odd to you as a
machine that doesn't heat water is to me!
I couldn't possibly wash certain items in cold or lukewarm water, they would
feel and look dirty. Without doubt some of my whites need near boiling to be
clean. Some final rinses should be warm but I can't remember which ones.
If my label says wash at 60c or 40c or 95c how can I do that without a
heater? I have had hot and cold intake machines but it is guesswork to get
the right temperature on a front loader without a heater. I appreciate other
countries don't always have access to the energy/water saving front loaders
so maybe the temperature is easy to fix with an top loader?

http://www.washerhelp.co.uk/usage_2.html#cl_q1
This read is interesting imo and raises valid points

KarenCannoli

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"0tterbot" <spl@t.com> wrote in message
news:mMKrj.13283$421.9360@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> yes, hot washes are mostly a thing of the past - cold washes work perfectly well for
> most things & that's what people mostly do.
>
> however, if you want or need to do a hot wash, you just set the machine for a hot
> wash, to fill from the hot tap instead of the cold tap. a few households (e.g. mine)
> only have a cold laundry tap so that's not possible, but that's a bit uncommon too
> to only have one tap.
>
This is what I do. I use cold water most of the time, easier on the clothes and
it uses less energy. It seems we have the same system as you, Kylie.
Karen, USA

0tterbot

2008-02-11, 9:25 am

"Mrs Bonk" <arse@nospamcutey.com> wrote in message
news:619k3eF1t515eU1@mid.individual.net...

>
> I am not Australian or American but I am tagging along on this thread
> anyway. I am amazed that a machine that heats water is as odd to you as a
> machine that doesn't heat water is to me!
> I couldn't possibly wash certain items in cold or lukewarm water, they
> would feel and look dirty.

no they wouldn't - that's your psychology, not your clothes ;-)
almost all washing powders & liquids are usable (& formulated thusly) for
hot or cold. frankly, unless you're a mechanic or something, you will get as
good a wash in cold. i'd want hot water if i'd been doing an oil change on
the car (which i don't do, just to be clear ;-) - otherwise, no.

i do remember the days (i was a kid) when "hot" washing was the only way to
do it - but that was a carry-over from the old days of washing clothes in a
boiler. people's psychology adjusted. (and washing powders became more
effective too, i'd hazard).

Without doubt some of my whites need near boiling to be
> clean. Some final rinses should be warm but I can't remember which ones.
> If my label says wash at 60c or 40c or 95c how can I do that without a
> heater?

you will find your clothes labels decree a number of things which are simply
untrue, so i wouldn't get too worked up about it.
kylie

I have had hot and cold intake machines but it is guesswork to get
> the right temperature on a front loader without a heater. I appreciate
> other countries don't always have access to the energy/water saving front
> loaders so maybe the temperature is easy to fix with an top loader?
>
> http://www.washerhelp.co.uk/usage_2.html#cl_q1
> This read is interesting imo and raises valid points
>
>
>

Mrs Bonk

2008-02-11, 5:25 pm

0tterbot wrote:
> "Mrs Bonk" <arse@nospamcutey.com> wrote in message
> news:619k3eF1t515eU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> no they wouldn't - that's your psychology, not your clothes ;-)
> almost all washing powders & liquids are usable (& formulated thusly) for
> hot or cold. frankly, unless you're a mechanic or something, you will get
> as good a wash in cold. i'd want hot water if i'd been doing an oil
> change on the car (which i don't do, just to be clear ;-) - otherwise, no.

I washed my kitchen towels today along with some chefs whites. I tried a
cold wash. The soap never dissolved and the washed items came out as stained
as they went in. Perhaps I will try a new detergent rather than my old
powder however I cannot agree that a cold wash will take out the grease and
dirt as well as a nice hot wash with soda and plenty of good soap will.

> i do remember the days (i was a kid) when "hot" washing was the only way
> to do it - but that was a carry-over from the old days of washing clothes
> in a boiler. people's psychology adjusted. (and washing powders became
> more effective too, i'd hazard).
>
> Without doubt some of my whites need near boiling to be
>
> you will find your clothes labels decree a number of things which are
> simply untrue, so i wouldn't get too worked up about it.

Why on Earth would I be worked up? I have my energy saving appliance that
washes extremely well and is good for the planet and today I purchase a new
combination oven/grill/micro at a bargain price .

[color=darkred]
> kylie
>
> I have had hot and cold intake machines but it is guesswork to get

nobody seems to have commented on the disgusting gunge and the effect on the
machine it has from a cold wash.
PS
I often service my car including doing oil changes. I do quite enjoy
tinkering.

0tterbot

2008-02-13, 5:25 pm

"Mrs Bonk" <arse@nospamcutey.com> wrote in message
news:61c21aF1uim2iU1@mid.individual.net...

> I washed my kitchen towels today along with some chefs whites. I tried a
> cold wash. The soap never dissolved and the washed items came out as
> stained as they went in. Perhaps I will try a new detergent rather than my
> old powder however I cannot agree that a cold wash will take out the
> grease and dirt as well as a nice hot wash with soda and plenty of good
> soap will.

hm, sounds like the problem is with your powder, rather than anything else.
otherwise, this group would be full of australians & americans wondering why
their washing comes out as dirty as when it went in, wouldn't it? :-)

i agree that teatowels and certain garments (aprons, etc) exposed to cooking
messes can be problematic. i'm not suggesting that a cold wash is the total
solution to every washing need! i often soak teatowels in hot water with
detergent (or in a worst-case scenario, sard or napisan). then i wash them
in cold :-) clothes with greasy spots: i spray the spots with a bit of stain
remover beforehand. in both these cases the items come out as nicely as i
would wish.

i'm not just making this up, you know. i wouldn't recommend anything that
doesn't actually work! ;-) but the fact is that most clothes, when washed,
just weren't that dirty in the first place. anything that's greasy or
extremely dirty might need a little prior treatment, that's all - but then,
they still may need pre-treatment if they were washed hot, wouldn't they,
because hot water in & of itself also won't solve every washing problem, &
(as i'm sure you know, being a Clean and Knowlegable lady) with certain
stains it will set them & make the problem worse or permanent.

>
> Why on Earth would I be worked up? I have my energy saving appliance that
> washes extremely well and is good for the planet and today I purchase a
> new combination oven/grill/micro at a bargain price .

if it's electric you'll be paying in the long run ;-)

i was not accusing you of being worked up. just stating that i myself
wouldn't get worked up about washing labels - yours, mine, or anyone's. like
i said: they lie. they are only recommendations based on the manufacturer
not wanting things returned because people buggered up the washing method,
that's all. a basic knowledge of fabrics, dyes & washing methods is all
anyone needs to know - and many people don't even know _that_ but their
washing is spanking clean & their clothes are in good order :-) (it's not
rocket science - it's only doing the washing).

>
> nobody seems to have commented on the disgusting gunge and the effect on
> the machine it has from a cold wash.

tbh, i found that page to be somewhat hysterical. indeed, we could all be
planning in advance to avoid disasters and mishaps of every imaginable kind,
but the reality is that the worst usually doesn't happen & planning for
every horrific possibility (grunge in the washing machine! mon dieu!) would
only make life more difficult than it has to be.

as i am trying to say, excess greasiness is 1: not most peoples' problem
anyway and 2: countered by using a washing powder that is effective in cold
water (if the cold-water powder removes residual greasiness from clothes, it
is rather likely to do so from the machine also). i promise you that they
exist. the one i use is not only effective on all our washing (with a few
items pre-treated, just as anyone would) but is also free of petrochemicals
and phosphorus and designed to be used in greywater systems without harm to
plants.

it's possible that with factors here (cold washing being the norm, greywater
use rapidly becoming very common) that manufacturers have been obliged to
ensure their products actually work well under such "normal" conditions. if,
however, you are reliant on powders designed solely for hot-water use and
manufactured from petrochemicals, and on washing soda (which is salt), you
should probably not become too attached as i can foresee a day when such
products are withdrawn from sale.

> PS
> I often service my car including doing oil changes. I do quite enjoy
> tinkering.

you are a woman of many talents!!

i'll tell you one thing, mrs b.: when a person lives in a situation where
they are wholly and solely resposible not only for obtaining their water in
the first place, but also directing where it ends up again (in other words,
a situation where there is no town water & no sewage, such as at my place)
they rethink such issues as this and are no longer inclined (if they ever
were) to use unnecessary interventions on their washing. i would not and
could not use washing soda, bleach, and so forth in general wash water, as
it would kill my garden. not only would hot washing be an unseemly hassle
(the need to get the water from some other tap) but it would waste my energy
and would mean the hot water (solar and/or wood-fired depending on the
weather) is used up unnecessarily. if i had a self-heating machine, it would
unnecessarily drain energy (again, solar and wind) which would be much
better used for other purposes. in short, when what one is using and what
one is releasing as by-products are never one's own problem that needs to be
dealt with oneself, one will almost invariably be wasting resources &
creating problems along the line. myself, i don't waste resources partly
because i am disinclined by nature, and partly because the only people who
would suffer are me and my family. if these little realities were shared
among the general public, behaviour would change extremely rapidly. most
people are buffered from the effects of their own behaviour because the end
results are somewhere down the track & no connection is made, and
clothes-washing is merely one tiny example among many.
:-)
kylie

Mrs Bonk

2008-02-15, 1:26 pm

0tterbot wrote:
> "Mrs Bonk" <arse@nospamcutey.com> wrote in message
> news:61c21aF1uim2iU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> hm, sounds like the problem is with your powder, rather than anything
> else. otherwise, this group would be full of australians & americans
> wondering why their washing comes out as dirty as when it went in,
> wouldn't it? :-)

Hello dear. It's is so nice of you to write back, even though we can't agree
on this we can talk sensibly unlike some others in the groups who resort to
insults. Today I used a liquid detergent and a cold wash. I noticed the wash
was very bubbly compared to my normal wash. The clothes were not dirty, just
worn about the house a few times so it wasn't a test as such then I realised
my new machine had a "freshener" wash so maybe that would have done as well.
I am not so sure you're right about everyone in America and Australia using
a cold wash therefore the groups are not full of whingers, so to speak -
the way I read it, mostly from Phish, is that the machines don't normally
have heaters so they are filled from another source with hot and cold to
whatever temperature is suited for the fabric/stain.

> i agree that teatowels and certain garments (aprons, etc) exposed to
> cooking messes can be problematic. i'm not suggesting that a cold wash is
> the total solution to every washing need! i often soak teatowels in hot
> water with detergent (or in a worst-case scenario, sard or napisan). then
> i wash them in cold :-) clothes with greasy spots: i spray the spots with
> a bit of stain remover beforehand. in both these cases the items come out
> as nicely as i would wish.
>
> i'm not just making this up, you know. i wouldn't recommend anything that
> doesn't actually work! ;-) but the fact is that most clothes, when washed,
> just weren't that dirty in the first place. anything that's greasy or
> extremely dirty might need a little prior treatment, that's all - but
> then, they still may need pre-treatment if they were washed hot, wouldn't
> they, because hot water in & of itself also won't solve every washing
> problem, & (as i'm sure you know, being a Clean and Knowlegable lady)
> with certain stains it will set them & make the problem worse or
> permanent.
>
> if it's electric you'll be paying in the long run ;-)

I don't understand your meaning here. I will be paying a considerable amount
less than I would be paying if I lit my main oven. They are both electric
but as one is very small it heats quicker and uses far less energy than the
other, less too than a gas stove, which is something I would prefer but
can't have. I suppose I could cook on a fire of some sort but would soon
have the council after me as I live in a smokeless zone.

> i was not accusing you of being worked up. just stating that i myself
> wouldn't get worked up about washing labels - yours, mine, or anyone's.
> like i said: they lie. they are only recommendations based on the
> manufacturer not wanting things returned because people buggered up the
> washing method, that's all. a basic knowledge of fabrics, dyes & washing
> methods is all anyone needs to know - and many people don't even know
> _that_ but their washing is spanking clean & their clothes are in good
> order :-) (it's not rocket science - it's only doing the washing).
>
>
> tbh, i found that page to be somewhat hysterical. indeed, we could all be
> planning in advance to avoid disasters and mishaps of every imaginable
> kind, but the reality is that the worst usually doesn't happen & planning
> for every horrific possibility (grunge in the washing machine! mon dieu!)
> would only make life more difficult than it has to be.

There are plenty of posts about brown stains on washing. There are plenty of
people moaning about the short life of modern appliances. If there is a
green washing powder that stops this muck and allows a cold wash for not too
dirty items ( I will always wash whites/towels/sheets in hot regardless)
then we should know about it.

> as i am trying to say, excess greasiness is 1: not most peoples' problem
> anyway and 2: countered by using a washing powder that is effective in
> cold water (if the cold-water powder removes residual greasiness from
> clothes, it is rather likely to do so from the machine also). i promise
> you that they exist. the one i use is not only effective on all our
> washing (with a few items pre-treated, just as anyone would) but is also
> free of petrochemicals and phosphorus and designed to be used in
> greywater systems without harm to plants.
>
> it's possible that with factors here (cold washing being the norm,
> greywater use rapidly becoming very common) that manufacturers have been
> obliged to ensure their products actually work well under such "normal"
> conditions. if, however, you are reliant on powders designed solely for
> hot-water use and manufactured from petrochemicals, and on washing soda
> (which is salt), you should probably not become too attached as i can
> foresee a day when such products are withdrawn from sale.

>
> you are a woman of many talents!!

I have always had to look after myself dear. Not that I would wish it any
other way.

>
> i'll tell you one thing, mrs b.: when a person lives in a situation where
> they are wholly and solely resposible not only for obtaining their water
> in the first place, but also directing where it ends up again (in other
> words, a situation where there is no town water & no sewage, such as at
> my place) they rethink such issues as this and are no longer inclined (if
> they ever were) to use unnecessary interventions on their washing. i
> would not and could not use washing soda, bleach, and so forth in general
> wash water, as it would kill my garden. not only would hot washing be an
> unseemly hassle (the need to get the water from some other tap) but it
> would waste my energy and would mean the hot water (solar and/or
> wood-fired depending on the weather) is used up unnecessarily. if i had a
> self-heating machine, it would unnecessarily drain energy (again, solar
> and wind) which would be much better used for other purposes. in short,
> when what one is using and what one is releasing as by-products are never
> one's own problem that needs to be dealt with oneself, one will almost
> invariably be wasting resources & creating problems along the line.
> myself, i don't waste resources partly because i am disinclined by
> nature, and partly because the only people who would suffer are me and my
> family. if these little realities were shared among the general public,
> behaviour would change extremely rapidly. most people are buffered from
> the effects of their own behaviour because the end results are somewhere
> down the track & no connection is made, and clothes-washing is merely one
> tiny example among many. :-)

I have given much thought to your last paragraph. Today I went to see my
carbon footprint, it was a third of the average UK person so I am pleased on
that and it gave me some food for thought as to how to reduce further. I
have always leaned to green whenever possible ( I used to be a hippy believe
it or not and still go to Glastonbury often)
When I go to my accommodation in Scotland, up in the Highlands, then I too
can enjoy living in a similar style with wood burning stoves, solar panels,
well water etc. (Wind farming is at this time causing much dissent up there
so I am staying out of that one) however, here in the South West where I
work in a town and at present live then it is a different story, no room to
swing a cat, a lot without a garden, reliant totally on mains water etc. I
can only do my best and dream of the day I will retire and leave to live
elsewhere and grow my own veg in a plot away from traffic fumes, ctc cameras
and the anti yob Mosquito that only the children are supposed to hear.
Today I learned I can have my TV licence printed online thereby saving a
little more,envelope/stamp etc. I rarely watch TV so maybe I should go the
whole hog and get rid of it and save myself £135.50 too, I doubt though I
would convince them my computer wasn't used for TV watching and they would
soon be snooping around with their van to try to catch me and have me up in
court.
Oh dear. I am waffling again.

Mrs Bonk

2008-02-15, 1:26 pm

E Z Peaces wrote:
> Mrs Bonk wrote:
>
>
> If you weren't so darn cheap you could have had a Mac. No wonder you're
> worked up. Regardless, don't get drunk and wash your PC in the laundry
> sink. It only works for Macs. Ask Letsplay.

Whatever happened to Cindy? Perhaps her Mac became rusty and she couldn't
get back online?

>
> I agree. Disgusting pictures like that don't belong on the WWW. I have
> emailed the webmaster and asked him to remove his site.
>
> I had stuff like that before I switched to modern American detergent.

Which one? Is it green?

> In America we call it trolling. If you would learn to write American we
> might be able to understand you. And German. Learn German.

Are you quite all there in the head?
( Don't mention the war)

0tterbot

2008-02-16, 5:25 pm

"Mrs Bonk" <arse@nospamcutey.com> wrote in message
news:61m3hrF2025nsU1@mid.individual.net...

> I am not so sure you're right about everyone in America and Australia
> using a cold wash therefore the groups are not full of whingers, so to
> speak -

i have no idea what americans would be doing - that is up to them to report.
as far as i can work out, they're addicted to tumble dryers, so i try not to
read those threads - they make me cringe.

i do know that NOW, most australians use cold, most of the time. which isn't
the same as all the time. i myself was psychologically dependent on hot
water for whites until fairly recently, actually. it's a hard hurdle to jump
;-)

> the way I read it, mostly from Phish, is that the machines don't normally
> have heaters so they are filled from another source with hot and cold to
> whatever temperature is suited for the fabric/stain.

that's right. a hot wash comes from the hot tap.

>
> I don't understand your meaning here. I will be paying a considerable
> amount less than I would be paying if I lit my main oven. They are both
> electric but as one is very small it heats quicker and uses far less
> energy than the other, less too than a gas stove, which is something I
> would prefer but can't have.

sorry, i was assuming a gas stove - again, those being the norm here. i had
an electric one at one house we rented - heavens, they're inadequate
compared to gas! hence the saying, which i think came from an ad long ago,
"now we're cooking with gas!" i.e. now we are making actual progress.
:-)

i can't speak for you & i don't know stats for here, but i'd be surprised if
gas was anywhere near as wasteful as electricity for cooking. and it's
cheaper. and it's far less polluting. however, i realise not every continent
has natural gas anyway.

> There are plenty of posts about brown stains on washing. There are plenty
> of people moaning about the short life of modern appliances.

it's not clear those are problems from cold water though - that's a leap i
wouldn't be making.

If there is a
> green washing powder that stops this muck and allows a cold wash for not
> too dirty items ( I will always wash whites/towels/sheets in hot
> regardless) then we should know about it.

well, i somehow doubt that the powder i use is available there, but just in
case, in australia it is marketed as "aware" or "planet ark". :-)

> I have given much thought to your last paragraph. Today I went to see my
> carbon footprint, it was a third of the average UK person so I am pleased
> on that and it gave me some food for thought as to how to reduce further.
> I have always leaned to green whenever possible ( I used to be a hippy
> believe it or not and still go to Glastonbury often)
> When I go to my accommodation in Scotland, up in the Highlands, then I too
> can enjoy living in a similar style with wood burning stoves, solar
> panels,

there is sun in scotland? who knew? <g>

> well water etc. (Wind farming is at this time causing much dissent up
> there so I am staying out of that one) however, here in the South West
> where I work in a town and at present live then it is a different story,
> no room to swing a cat, a lot without a garden, reliant totally on mains
> water etc. I can only do my best and dream of the day I will retire and
> leave to live elsewhere and grow my own veg in a plot away from traffic
> fumes, ctc cameras and the anti yob Mosquito that only the children are
> supposed to hear.
> Today I learned I can have my TV licence printed online thereby saving a
> little more,envelope/stamp etc. I rarely watch TV so maybe I should go the
> whole hog and get rid of it and save myself £135.50 too, I doubt though I
> would convince them my computer wasn't used for TV watching and they would
> soon be snooping around with their van to try to catch me and have me up
> in court.
> Oh dear. I am waffling again.

well, not really. i think we'd agree that plain old-fashioned thrift, and
realising we are not entitled to have everything that whistles and squeaks,
is the way forward. i do detest entitlement in people. i think it's just
morally wrong. waste is morally wrong. (etc).
kylie

Mrs Bonk

2008-02-19, 8:25 pm

E Z Peaces wrote:
> Mrs Bonk wrote:
>
> It looked rusty, but she said it was barbecue sauce. I got an anonymous
> valentine from her yesterday.

How very sweet. Did she sign it?

>
> Blue.
You are SO predictable

> The powder I used to use was the #1 environmental brand. The "grease"
> showed up after I switched to the blue. "Putty" might be a better word
> because I was never worried about soiling my clothes.
>
> I think it built up over years of using the environmental brand in
> lukewarm water, and the blue stuff got it loose.
>
> How could I see my monitor in the head? (I do like to take my wireless
> keyboard with me to the shower, but that's not to compose messages.
> It's to control itunes, playing over my loudspeakers in the dining room.)
<sigh>

Mrs Bonk

2008-02-19, 8:25 pm

0tterbot wrote:
> "Mrs Bonk" <arse@nospamcutey.com> wrote in message
> news:61m3hrF2025nsU1@mid.individual.net...

>
> sorry, i was assuming a gas stove - again, those being the norm here. i
> had an electric one at one house we rented - heavens, they're inadequate
> compared to gas! hence the saying, which i think came from an ad long ago,
> "now we're cooking with gas!" i.e. now we are making actual progress.

I prefer gas and at one time I would estimate that the majority used it but
now a lot, including me, sway to a gas hob with an electric oven.

> If there is a
>
> well, i somehow doubt that the powder i use is available there, but just
> in case, in australia it is marketed as "aware" or "planet ark". :-)

I can research it and see if there is similar.

>
>
> there is sun in scotland? who knew? <g>

It can be very harsh but I had a mail today saying the strawberries were in
flower so it can't be too bad for this time of the year. The sea is always
very cold compared to where I am. Luckily I have the Gulf stream to paddle
in.

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