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Home > Archive > Building and Construction > February 2006 > Fire Protection Engineering Community: Planes/Fire Did NOT Bring Down WTC on 9/11
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Fire Protection Engineering Community: Planes/Fire Did NOT Bring Down WTC on 9/11
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| http://tinyurl.com/6umok
Fire Engineering/fireEMS Online Article
"Burning Questions...Need Answers": FE's Bill Manning Calls for
Comprehensive Investigation of WTC Collapse
Fair Lawn, NJ, January 4, 2002-Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor in
chief, is summoning members of the fire service to "A Call to Action." In
his January 2002 Editor's Opinion, "$elling Out the Investigation"
(below), he warns that unless there is a full-blown investigation by an
independent panel established solely for that purpose, "the World Trade
Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated
hypotheticals." Manning explained: "Clearly, there are burning questions
that need answers .... The lessons about the buildings' design and
behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the
real world."
In an interview with the New York Daily News today, Manning reiterated
his call for a "full-throttle, fully resourced" investigation into the
collapse of the World Trade Center. He is asking members of the fire
service to read "WTC 'Investigation'? A Call to Action" in the January
2002 issue of Fire Engineering and at fireengineering.com and to contact
their representatives in Congress and officials in Washington to ask that
a blue ribbon panel be convened to thoroughly investigate the WTC
collapse.
Among those also calling for the investigation are Sally Regenhard, the
mother of Christian Regenhard, the Fire Department of New York (FDNY)
probationary firefighter killed in the World Trade Center (WTC) attack,
and founder of the Campaign for Skyscraper Safety; Give Your Voice, a
civilian relatives' group headed by Michael Cartier, who lost his brother
in the collapse; prominent structural engineers and fire-safety experts,
and New York State Senators Charles Schumer and Senator Hillary Rodham
Clinton.
$elling Out the Investigation
By Bill Manning
Did they throw away the locked doors from the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire?
Did they throw away the gas can used at the Happyland Social Club Fire?
Did they cast aside the pressure-regulating valves at the Meridian Plaza
Fire? Of course not. But essentially, that's what they're doing at the
World Trade Center.
For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center
has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence
that could answer many questions about high-rise building design
practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to
China, perhaps never to be seen again in America until you buy your next
car.
Such destruction of evidence shows the astounding ignorance of government
officials to the value of a thorough, scientific investigation of the
largest fire-induced collapse in world history. I have combed through our
national standard for fire investigation, NFPA 921, but nowhere in it
does one find an exemption allowing the destruction of evidence for
buildings over 10 stories tall.
Hoping beyond hope, I have called experts to ask if the towers were the
only high-rise buildings in America of lightweight, center-core
construction. No such luck. I made other calls asking if these were the
only buildings in America with light-density, sprayed-on fireproofing.
Again, no luck-they were two of thousands that fit the description.
Comprehensive disaster investigations mean increased safety. They mean
positive change. NASA knows it. The NTSB knows it. Does FEMA know it?
No. Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official
investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil
Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered
by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far
afield of full disclosure. Except for the marginal benefit obtained from
a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE
investigation committee members- described by one close source as a
"tourist trip"-no one's checking the evidence for anything.
Maybe we should live and work in planes. That way, if disaster strikes,
we will at least be sure that a thorough investigation will help find
ways to increase safety for our survivors.
As things now stand and if they continue in such fashion, the
investigation into the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount
to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals.
However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community
are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged:
The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet
fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. Rather,
theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably
fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused
the collapses in an alarmingly short time. Of course, in light of there
being no real evidence thus far produced, this could remain just
unexplored theory.
The frequency of published and unpublished reports raising questions
about the steel fireproofing and other fire protection elements in the
buildings, as well as their design and construction, is on the rise. The
builders and owners of the World Trade Center property, the Port
Authority of New York-New Jersey, a governmental agency that operates in
an accountability vacuum beyond the reach of local fire and building
codes, has denied charges that the buildings' fire protection or
construction components were substandard but has refused to cooperate
with requests for documentation supporting its contentions.
Some citizens are taking to the streets to protest the investigation
sellout. Sally Regenhard, for one, wants to know why and how the building
fell as it did upon her unfortunate son Christian, an FDNY probationary
firefighter. And so do we.
Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the
incident's magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic
investigation is imperative. More important, from a moral standpoint, for
the safety of present and future generations who live and work in tall
buildings-and for firefighters, always first in and last out-the lessons
about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must
be learned and applied in the real world.
To treat the September 11 incident any differently would be the height of
stupidity and ignorance.
The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.
The federal government must scrap the current setup and commission a
fully resourced blue ribbon panel to conduct a clean and thorough
investigation of the fire and collapse, leaving no stones unturned.
Firefighters, this is your call to action. Visit WTC "Investigation"?: A
Call to Action, then contact your representatives in Congress and
officials in Washington and help us correct this problem immediately.
Find this article at:
http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?
Section=OnlineArticles&SubSe%20ction=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25
&ARTICLE_ID=131225
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| sanjian 2006-01-28, 10:21 am |
| TRUTH wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/6umok
Of course, if you read the article, you'll see that their belief isn't that
the government destroyed the towers, but that they destroyed the keys to
learning something about the fireproofing that likely failed, and lessons
that could go into protecting other high-rises. In other words, you have
dragged their name through the mud by enlisting them, unwillingly, in your
cause.
In other words, you're trying to mislead people.
I'm done with you.
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| Counting 2006-01-28, 11:21 am |
|
sanjian wrote:
> I'm done with you.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....69?dmode=source
allow me.
"Hey Gang, I wanted to apologize to everyone about my assertions of the
events that happened on 9/11.
I realize now how insensitive it was of me to keep bringing it up. This
is my last post about it.
Im sorry that I acted like an idiot.
The real TRUTH is, I have been taking lithiuim for my chemical
imbalance and well, it has left me in a drooling stupor. Not to
mention, my girlfriend left me for a younger man.
My mom doesn't talk to me anymore, and well...I've just had it really
rough...
Im very sorry that I went on like I did, I see now that 9/11 was what
it was.
Feeling so rejected on so many levels, I had stumbled across this group
of people who DID accept me just like I was. Did I mention that I now
have a wooden leg? Yes...this is not a big deal I realize, but at first
it was very depressing. I see now that I have a good source of
toothpics I just reach down with my pocket knife and have a splinter.
Im just kidding, but I had to joke about it..in order to feel more
comfortable with my wooden leg.
It's really too short and it makes my back hurt. That's besides the
point.
Well this morning I realize that nobody owes me anything, and I have
really showed my tail up in here and please accept my apologies.
Im almost in tears for having acted like such an idiot."
--
yeppers!
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| P. Fritz 2006-01-28, 12:21 pm |
|
"sanjian" <millerkb@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:drft2a$e86$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> TRUTH wrote:
>
> Of course, if you read the article, you'll see that their belief isn't
that
> the government destroyed the towers, but that they destroyed the keys to
> learning something about the fireproofing that likely failed, and
lessons
> that could go into protecting other high-rises. In other words, you
have
> dragged their name through the mud by enlisting them, unwillingly, in
your
> cause.
>
> In other words, you're trying to mislead people.
>
> I'm done with you.
A little piece of this, and a little peice of that.....is the only way
that buffoons like 'truth' or 'freedom' can weave together their conspiracy
story, all the while ignoring the mountains of evidence that make their
claims comical.
They are following the extremist handbook......repeat a lie long enough
and loud enough, and eventually, some will accept it as fact.
>
>
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| Mr Tibbs 2006-01-28, 3:21 pm |
|
P. Fritz wrote:
> They are following the extremist handbook......repeat a lie long enough
> and loud enough, and eventually, some will accept it as fact.
i can't hear you! i got my fingers in my ears...lalalalalalalalala
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| Matt Barrow 2006-01-28, 5:21 pm |
|
"sanjian" <millerkb@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:drft2a$e86$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> TRUTH wrote:
>
> Of course, if you read the article, you'll see that their belief isn't
> that the government destroyed the towers, but that they destroyed the keys
> to learning something about the fireproofing that likely failed, and
> lessons that could go into protecting other high-rises. In other words,
> you have dragged their name through the mud by enlisting them,
> unwillingly, in your cause.
>
> In other words, you're trying to mislead people.
It's called "fraud".
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| Freedom Fighter 2006-01-28, 7:21 pm |
| "TRUTH" <TRUTH@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns97593B3BC6DBtruth@130.81.64.196...
> http://tinyurl.com/6umok
>
> Fire Engineering/fireEMS Online Article
>
> "Burning Questions...Need Answers": FE's Bill Manning Calls for
> Comprehensive Investigation of WTC Collapse
>
> Fair Lawn, NJ, January 4, 2002-Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor in
> chief, is summoning members of the fire service to "A Call to Action." In
> his January 2002 Editor's Opinion, "$elling Out the Investigation"
> (below), he warns that unless there is a full-blown investigation by an
> independent panel established solely for that purpose, "the World Trade
> Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated
> hypotheticals." Manning explained: "Clearly, there are burning questions
> that need answers .... The lessons about the buildings' design and
> behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the
> real world."
>
> In an interview with the New York Daily News today, Manning reiterated
> his call for a "full-throttle, fully resourced" investigation into the
> collapse of the World Trade Center. He is asking members of the fire
> service to read "WTC 'Investigation'? A Call to Action" in the January
> 2002 issue of Fire Engineering and at fireengineering.com and to contact
> their representatives in Congress and officials in Washington to ask that
> a blue ribbon panel be convened to thoroughly investigate the WTC
> collapse.
>
> Among those also calling for the investigation are Sally Regenhard, the
> mother of Christian Regenhard, the Fire Department of New York (FDNY)
> probationary firefighter killed in the World Trade Center (WTC) attack,
> and founder of the Campaign for Skyscraper Safety; Give Your Voice, a
> civilian relatives' group headed by Michael Cartier, who lost his brother
> in the collapse; prominent structural engineers and fire-safety experts,
> and New York State Senators Charles Schumer and Senator Hillary Rodham
> Clinton.
< snip >
I have written letters, both email and snailmail, to Senators Hillary
Clinton and Chuck Schumer, as well as state Attorney General Eliot Spitzer.
That was over two weeks ago, and I've had no responses whatsoever to date.
Either they don't want to know, or as is more likely they do know but are
afraid to admit it or say anything about it.
We all must continue to notify these people that we demand an independent
investigation and some honest answers, are not going to go away until truth
and justice are served..
| |
| sanjian 2006-01-28, 7:21 pm |
| Freedom Fighter wrote:
> I have written letters, both email and snailmail, to Senators Hillary
> Clinton and Chuck Schumer, as well as state Attorney General Eliot
> Spitzer. That was over two weeks ago, and I've had no responses
> whatsoever to date. Either they don't want to know, or as is more
> likely they do know but are afraid to admit it or say anything about
> it.
For the first time, ever, I feel sorry for Hillary.
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| bill allemann 2006-01-28, 9:21 pm |
| I think he should have written to Howard Dean.
"sanjian" <millerkb@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:drgsbg$167$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> Freedom Fighter wrote:
>
>
> For the first time, ever, I feel sorry for Hillary.
>
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| tmurf.1@juno.com 2006-01-31, 7:21 pm |
| Just build with masonry.
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| sanjian 2006-02-01, 12:21 am |
| tmurf.1@juno.com wrote:
> Just build with masonry.
How thick would the base of the Twin Towers have to be if it was built with
masonry? Would it still be two buildings?
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| bill allemann 2006-02-01, 3:21 pm |
| then a conspiracy of panda bears would bring it down...
"Don Ocean" <ocean@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:44bdr8F1bc68U4@individual.net...[color=darkred]
> sanjian wrote:
>
> Try Bamboo... ;-p
>
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| sanjian 2006-02-01, 4:21 pm |
| bill allemann wrote:
> then a conspiracy of panda bears would bring it down...
You've got to admit, though, pandas are a lot cuter than middle-east
hijackers. Hell, you almost couldn't blame them for ravaging the city.
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| sanjian 2006-02-02, 11:21 am |
| Don Ocean wrote:
> sanjian wrote:
>
> I don't know about that. Can you imagine Panda shit all over the
> place?
It's New York, how would you notice?
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| sanjian 2006-02-02, 11:21 am |
| Don Ocean wrote:
> bill allemann wrote:
>
> But, then we would get a new bunch of conspiracy nut experts. ;-p
Maybe we could get pandas to start eating conspiracynuts instead of bamboo?
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| tmurf.1@juno.com 2006-02-08, 9:21 pm |
| The empire state building was built with masonry with a steel framework
and it was hit by a plane once and they just cleaned up the mess and
made the repairs and re-opened the section again. True it was a much
smaller plane but It would not have collapsed like the WTC if it was
hit by a 747.
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| RicodJour 2006-02-08, 11:21 pm |
| tmurf.1@juno.com wrote:
> The empire state building was built with masonry with a steel framework
> and it was hit by a plane once and they just cleaned up the mess and
> made the repairs and re-opened the section again. True it was a much
> smaller plane but It would not have collapsed like the WTC if it was
> hit by a 747.
Maybe, maybe not. There's a world of difference between a B-25
weighing 30,000 pounds hitting a building at 230 MPH (cruising speed)
and a 747 weighing 900,000 pounds hitting a building at 500 MPH (less
than cruising speed). The 747 carries four times as much fuel as the
B-25 weighed.
Other than the fact that planes hit both buildings there can be no
further inference. Insufficient information for anything other than a
guess.
R
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| Bob Morrison 2006-02-09, 12:21 pm |
| In a previous post RicodJour wrote...
>
> Maybe, maybe not. There's a world of difference between a B-25
> weighing 30,000 pounds hitting a building at 230 MPH (cruising speed)
> and a 747 weighing 900,000 pounds hitting a building at 500 MPH (less
> than cruising speed). The 747 carries four times as much fuel as the
> B-25 weighed.
>
> Other than the fact that planes hit both buildings there can be no
> further inference. Insufficient information for anything other than a
> guess.
>
>
Rico:
Well stated!
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
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| Matt Barrow 2006-02-09, 12:21 pm |
|
"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1139453262.979655.55510@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> tmurf.1@juno.com wrote:
>
> Maybe, maybe not. There's a world of difference between a B-25
> weighing 30,000 pounds hitting a building at 230 MPH (cruising speed)
> and a 747 weighing 900,000 pounds hitting a building at 500 MPH (less
> than cruising speed). The 747 carries four times as much fuel as the
> B-25 weighed.
FWIW, the B-25 that ht the Empire State Uilding was "feeling it's way"
around in the fog; he was doing much less than crusing speed (more like
140-160). Further, it was not carrying a full load (normally bombs, but
also fuel in this case), so it's weight was about half.
IIRC, the aircraf that hit the WTC were doing about 360 knots (about
415MPH).
>
> Other than the fact that planes hit both buildings there can be no
> further inference. Insufficient information for anything other than a
> guess.
Facts and proper logic doesn't stop the conspiracy nuts. (Do you intend to
take away their teddy bears?)
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| Matt Barrow 2006-02-09, 12:21 pm |
|
<tmurf.1@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1139445901.376631.8830@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> The empire state building was built with masonry with a steel framework
> and it was hit by a plane once and they just cleaned up the mess and
> made the repairs and re-opened the section again. True it was a much
> smaller plane but It would not have collapsed like the WTC if it was
> hit by a 747.
Different construction...MUCH SMALLER plane, MUCH SLOWER plane, virtually
zero fuel in the B-25, a FULL FUEL load in the ones that hit the WTC (they
picked coast-to-coast flight so that they would have full fuel loads, (ones
going westbound have nearly FULL TANKS).
Try using more than a couple of points and make sure the ones you do are
relevant.
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| sanjian 2006-02-09, 2:21 pm |
| Matt Barrow wrote:
> <tmurf.1@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:1139445901.376631.8830@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Different construction...MUCH SMALLER plane, MUCH SLOWER plane,
> virtually zero fuel in the B-25, a FULL FUEL load in the ones that
> hit the WTC (they picked coast-to-coast flight so that they would
> have full fuel loads, (ones going westbound have nearly FULL TANKS).
>
> Try using more than a couple of points and make sure the ones you do
> are relevant.
Either way, it's Geroge Bush's fault that the WTC towers weren't masonry.
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| Matt Barrow 2006-02-09, 3:21 pm |
|
"sanjian" <millerkb@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:dsfvht$np4$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> Either way, it's Geroge Bush's fault that the WTC towers weren't masonry.
His opponents would have used LEGOS.
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| sanjian 2006-02-09, 8:21 pm |
| Matt Barrow wrote:
> "sanjian" <millerkb@vt.edu> wrote in message
> news:dsfvht$np4$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> His opponents would have used LEGOS.
Ahh, good ol' plastic masonry.
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