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Home > Archive > Building and Construction > March 2006 > Water Supply Lines: Copper vs PVC
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Water Supply Lines: Copper vs PVC
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| R Alexander 2006-03-18, 4:21 pm |
| I am building 1400 sq ft residence. 2 1/2 baths. Aside from septic, I'm
subject to no governmental interference.
Which system would you plumbers prefer to have in your house? Copper or
PVC?
I will be doing work myself. I can sweat copper and believe a moron can
glue PVC together. (At least the thin stuff) Freezing not a biggie. Very
low minerals / dissolved solids in water.
I guess the question boils down to cost, durability, ease of installation.
Did I miss any? Health hazard of inhaling that nasty purple primer??
Thanks in advance for your expert opinions.
RFA
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| Robert the Bearded 2006-03-18, 5:21 pm |
| If you've got very low minerals/dissolved solids in your water (soft
water) then you'd be better off with PVC. Copper will corrode in soft
water, and since you've not got much alkalinity, you're pH will be low
(maybe 6.5), further increasing the likelihood of corrosion.
All of this means that the copper will corrode, and limit the
durability of the pipe. Also, copper is toxic, and is regulated in
drinking water for good reason.
PVC is also cheaper and easier to join.
Go PVC.
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| Bobk207 2006-03-19, 1:21 am |
|
R Alexander wrote:
> I am building 1400 sq ft residence. 2 1/2 baths. Aside from septic, I'm
> subject to no governmental interference.
>
> Which system would you plumbers prefer to have in your house? Copper or
> PVC?
>
> I will be doing work myself. I can sweat copper and believe a moron can
> glue PVC together. (At least the thin stuff) Freezing not a biggie. Very
> low minerals / dissolved solids in water.
>
> I guess the question boils down to cost, durability, ease of installation.
> Did I miss any? Health hazard of inhaling that nasty purple primer??
>
> Thanks in advance for your expert opinions.
>
> RFA
PEX...........no glue, few joints
Use a manifold system & you'll only have joints at the manifold & the
fixture
If you're building the place yourself, I would recommend against slab
on grade. Go with a perimeter foundation.
Be generous w/ the insulation; energy is only going to get more
expensive
cheers
Bob
| |
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| "R Alexander" <rfa2000WAX@WAXflash.net> wrote in message
news:mQZSf.6724$%m4.6299@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>I am building 1400 sq ft residence. 2 1/2 baths. Aside from septic, I'm
> subject to no governmental interference.
>
> Which system would you plumbers prefer to have in your house? Copper or
> PVC?
>
> I will be doing work myself. I can sweat copper and believe a moron can
> glue PVC together. (At least the thin stuff) Freezing not a biggie.
> Very
> low minerals / dissolved solids in water.
>
> I guess the question boils down to cost, durability, ease of installation.
> Did I miss any? Health hazard of inhaling that nasty purple primer??
>
> Thanks in advance for your expert opinions.
>
> RFA
>
>
>
Had same restrictions as yourself, practically none except the county's nose
in the septic system. Did supply to house, and drainage from house to
septic input line. All is PVC. Was the water checked for hydrogen sulfide
gas? You should have some whole-house filtering system for drinking water
supply if not using municipal water. Irrigation water for your lawn and
what not, doesn't need it.
If any areas are quite rocky, consider lining the bottom with a couple
inches of sand, laying the pipe, more sand, then bury it.
The best PVC cement I found was of a medium to dark blue color from Ace
hardware. Just don't get that purple primer on you is the best advice I can
give.
If you go with copper, watch out for the thinwall ripoff stuff. It'll leak
in a week.
--
Jonny
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| HerHusband 2006-03-19, 3:21 pm |
| > Which system would you plumbers prefer to have in your house?
> Copper or PVC?
The "professionals" will probably recommend copper, as it has been around
a long time, and that's what they are most familiar with.
However, I installed CPVC plumbing in my house for a number of reasons.
1. Price. CPVC is cheaper and easier to install.
2. Safety. We spent a year building our own house, so I didn't want to
risk burning it down with a torch. I've seen a couple of examples of
"professionals" in our area starting house fires when installing
plumbing. If the pro's can make mistakes like that, I certainly could.
3. Skill. As you said, a moron can glue PVC together. I definitely
qualify.  Just be sure you use the purple primer before gluing up each
fitting. I've sweated a few copper connections, but it takes a bit more
skill.
4. Resistance to corrosion. This was one of the big deciding factors for
me. We have wonderful water, but it is fairly acidic. I've read many
stories of copper piping developing pinhole leaks after a few years
exposed to acidic water.
A couple of notes...
1. Use CPVC not PVC. Regular PVC won't hold up to the temperatures of hot
water (you can use PVC for the drain lines though).
2. If you have long runs, add a "U" shaped bend every 20 feet or so. CPVC
expands with temperature, and the bend will give it some flex room.
3. If you drill holes through the joists, make the holes a bit larger
than the pipe. As the CPVC expands, it will rub on the wood, making
noise.
4. Add a third line for a possible hot water recirculation system. It's
easy and cheap to do while you're installing. It would be much more
difficult to add later. I installed the line initially, thinking I
probably wouldn't use it, but discovered it took too long for hot water
to reach the farthest fixtures. I installed a recirculation pump a few
months after moving in, and the wait went from over a minute to less than
5 seconds.
Hope this helps,
Anthony
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| Verizon 2006-03-21, 8:21 pm |
| Believe you meant CPVC (PVC isn't approved for hot-water distribution).
To answer your question, my house is 100% copper but today I would use
either CPVC or PEX. To date, CPVC has a better reliability record. If you go
with PEX, I recommed you use the plastic fittings, NOT brass (reports of
leaks with the metal fittings, to the extent of replacing entire installed
systems over several homes.) (Of course you will need to use brass threaded
fittings if joining to a copper system.) Also, PEX varies between
manufacturers, if you have a choice, look carefully at the various
manufacturers offered in your area. A couple of manufacturers decided to
keep the same crimping tools they sold for PB systems, and this results in a
much smaller ID of tubing. Other manufacturers designed new tools and have
larger ID's on thier tubing and (esp) fittings. This is the only important
difference between manufacturers as on brand will offer more water flow than
another.
Price of copper has been shooting up over last few years, no real advantages
in its use.
Here's an analogy you clarify the picture.
You drive into a drive in restraunt.
Order a chocolate malt.
They bring it to you with two straws, on made out of plastic, one made out
of copper.
Which will you choose?
Dennis
> Which system would you plumbers prefer to have in your house? Copper or
> PVC?
>
> I will be doing work myself. I can sweat copper and believe a moron can
> glue PVC together. (At least the thin stuff) Freezing not a biggie.
> Very
> low minerals / dissolved solids in water.
>
> I guess the question boils down to cost, durability, ease of installation.
> Did I miss any? Health hazard of inhaling that nasty purple primer??
>
> Thanks in advance for your expert opinions.
>
> RFA
>
>
>
| |
| Steve . 2006-03-21, 11:21 pm |
|
> Here's an analogy you clarify the picture.
>
> You drive into a drive in restraunt.
> Order a chocolate malt.
> They bring it to you with two straws, on made out of plastic, one made out
> of copper.
> Which will you choose?
I would drink out of the plastic straw and sell the copper one for scrap.
| |
|
| Steve . wrote:
>
>
> I would drink out of the plastic straw and sell the copper one for scrap.
>
>
How bout you go to the store and try to find a supplement that includes
"plastic" or "copolymers" or "TFE" and so on. If you find one, let us
all know. You will find copper in all multivitimins.
It is a fact that copolymers are leached from plastics especially in hot
water situations. Ever taken a swig of water from a gallon jug (milk
bottle type) that has sat in the sun for a while? Taste like plastic?
Yep. Remember the issues with heating/reheating in plastic in
microwaves? Leaching.
I would ingest copper any day, even with its minimal lead content, as
opposed to eating plastic(s) on a regular basis (drinking water). PEX is
the best solution out there right now as its molecular makeup seems to
be the best with regards to leaching but the jury is still out as there
is not enough time in the field (people getting sick or not) to come to
a factual conclusion on the matter. We use PEX on homes regularly but we
dont dillude ourselves into thinking there may not be some "issues" down
the road.
I dont want to sound like chicken little here and its all guestimation
at this point but some time soon people are going to have to start
talking openly about the drastic increases in MS, ALS, Lupus, CF,
Fibromialgia, Parkinsons, cancers, and so on. If you ever get a chance
to talk to a chemical biologist they will most often tell you that the
industry consensus well established and that its all chemical. Its just
common sense.
If you were to blood test the average person today you would find some
90 chemical compounds in the body that have absolutely no place there.
There is no way they could get into your system other than to ingest, or
be exposed to these compounds.
Suck on a piece of copper ore and it maynot taste too good but you wont
die. Go suck on a glop of goo from an open tar pit (petroleum/plastic)
and you wont be with us for long. That would be a good litmus test for me.
Mark
| |
| Grumman-581 2006-03-22, 7:21 pm |
| "M&S" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:ZXjUf.9140$sL2.2559@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> How bout you go to the store and try to find a supplement that includes
> "plastic" or "copolymers" or "TFE" and so on. If you find one, let us
> all know. You will find copper in all multivitimins.
Hmmm... Sounds like iron pipes might be the way to go... Nothing like a bit
of iron supplement in your drinking water... Hell, in Houston the water has
so much calcium in it that it could probably be classified as "mineral"
water...
| |
|
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"Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dtkUf.7992$uX5.7385@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> "M&S" <no@no.com> wrote in message
> news:ZXjUf.9140$sL2.2559@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> Hmmm... Sounds like iron pipes might be the way to go... Nothing like a
> bit
> of iron supplement in your drinking water... Hell, in Houston the water
> has
> so much calcium in it that it could probably be classified as "mineral"
> water...
>
>
That ain't all that's in the Houston water.
jc
| |
| Grumman-581 2006-03-22, 10:21 pm |
| "J.C." <jccsplace@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kIkUf.156456$vi2.1874@fe03.news.easynews.com...
> That ain't all that's in the Houston water.
It bearable from a taste standpoint, but I prefer to run it through a filter
for drinnking... I've been in places up in NE Texas where the iron content
was so high in the water that it stained all the fixtures orange...
| |
| Robert the Bearded 2006-03-22, 10:21 pm |
| A "chemical biologist?" Perhaps you misspelled "medical doctor."
There is a risk involved in copper pipe, and by the way, copper pipe
doesn't inherently have lead in it. However, a good deal of brass
faucets do, which is how you get high lead from plastic piped homes.
Copper is regulated by the SDWA at a level of 1.3 mg/L action level.
>From the EPA:
"Short term exposure: Gastrointestinal distress
Long term exposure: Liver or kidney damage"
Now admittedly some stabilizers added to plastic pipe can leach.
However, pipe must be NSF approved, and therefor any monomers that may
be liberated from the pipe must not pose a health risk.
I don't know how familiar you are with the manufacture of plastics, but
high density polyethene, like in PEX, is crosslinked, where each
polymer chain is linked in a matrix with other polymer chains, and
gives it a high resistance to decomposition. In fact, one such
polymer, polystyrene (think coffeecup) in a crosslinked form, is used
in most of the cation exchange softening units, from small residential
units to giant units used in hospitals. And such polymers only suffer
premature failure at unusually high levels of disinfectant
(hypochlorous acid) in the water, like above 5 mg/L on a continuous
basis, or up to 150 on a short term disinfection basis (normal chlorine
residual in dirnking water is around 1 mg/L in chlorinated systems)
So yeah, if you want to pee blood and turn yellow, copper in acid, soft
water is great. If you want to live a long time, go plastics.
Also, if you are shining light into drinking water from a system where
chemicals are added, some photochemical reactions can occur which
create taste and odor problems, sometimes. So its probably not the
bottle's plastic, but the water itself.
| |
| tmurf.1@juno.com 2006-03-22, 10:21 pm |
| Copper is tried and true.
| |
| Bobk207 2006-03-23, 2:21 am |
|
Verizon wrote:[color=darkred]
> Believe you meant CPVC (PVC isn't approved for hot-water distribution).
>
> To answer your question, my house is 100% copper but today I would use
> either CPVC or PEX. To date, CPVC has a better reliability record. If you go
> with PEX, I recommed you use the plastic fittings, NOT brass (reports of
> leaks with the metal fittings, to the extent of replacing entire installed
> systems over several homes.) (Of course you will need to use brass threaded
> fittings if joining to a copper system.) Also, PEX varies between
> manufacturers, if you have a choice, look carefully at the various
> manufacturers offered in your area. A couple of manufacturers decided to
> keep the same crimping tools they sold for PB systems, and this results in a
> much smaller ID of tubing. Other manufacturers designed new tools and have
> larger ID's on thier tubing and (esp) fittings. This is the only important
> difference between manufacturers as on brand will offer more water flow than
> another.
>
> Price of copper has been shooting up over last few years, no real advantages
> in its use.
>
> Here's an analogy you clarify the picture.
>
> You drive into a drive in restraunt.
> Order a chocolate malt.
> They bring it to you with two straws, on made out of plastic, one made out
> of copper.
> Which will you choose?
>
> Dennis
>
Dennis-
Could you supply a link about the problems with brass PEX fittings?
I'm about to do a repipe in an old home. The flexibility of PEX over
even soft copper will make the job much easier & I won't have to
damage the house as much as a copper repipe. I was planning on using
Wirsbo PEX & their fittings (expansion tool not crimp tool)
cheers
Bob
| |
|
| Robert the Bearded wrote:
> A "chemical biologist?" Perhaps you misspelled "medical doctor."
>
> There is a risk involved in copper pipe, and by the way, copper pipe
> doesn't inherently have lead in it. However, a good deal of brass
> faucets do, which is how you get high lead from plastic piped homes.
> Copper is regulated by the SDWA at a level of 1.3 mg/L action level.
>
> "Short term exposure: Gastrointestinal distress
> Long term exposure: Liver or kidney damage"
>
> Now admittedly some stabilizers added to plastic pipe can leach.
> However, pipe must be NSF approved, and therefor any monomers that may
> be liberated from the pipe must not pose a health risk.
NSF or not, acceptable levels in everything from water to radiation have
been disputed/modified for years. We can see the effect industry has on
governing agencies most recently with the hullabaloo at the FDA. I am
completely glad they are there, however I dont put complete confidence
in their accptable levels and approval processes.
Remeber the old slogan "DDT is good for me". This ad slogan was
repeatedly delivered to the country showing footage and pictures of
families, children, eating at picinic tables immersed in a fog of DDT to
control pests. They were living within the "acceptable levels".
How about Dupont now being sued out the whazoo for their issues with C8
and Teflon/high heat. This issue was in the media 6-7 years ago as I
remember but the company stand was "nope, its fine, keep buying!!" Not
only did they hide issues with C8 in the local drinking water around
their plants but they also hid the fact that they knew it was released
in end user product use. What about the issues of polymer flu? And so on.
While its not "plastics" perse it clearly addresses the issues of
acceptable levels which are usually set with input from the manufacturer.
>
> I don't know how familiar you are with the manufacture of plastics, but
> high density polyethene, like in PEX, is crosslinked, where each
> polymer chain is linked in a matrix with other polymer chains, and
> gives it a high resistance to decomposition.
Which is why I said we feel it is the best choice right now if plastic
is they way your choosing to go. I have rolls sittin outside as we speak.
> In fact, one such
> polymer, polystyrene (think coffeecup) in a crosslinked form, is used
> in most of the cation exchange softening units, from small residential
> units to giant units used in hospitals. And such polymers only suffer
> premature failure at unusually high levels of disinfectant
> (hypochlorous acid) in the water, like above 5 mg/L on a continuous
> basis, or up to 150 on a short term disinfection basis (normal chlorine
> residual in dirnking water is around 1 mg/L in chlorinated systems)
>
> So yeah, if you want to pee blood and turn yellow, copper in acid, soft
> water is great. If you want to live a long time, go plastics.
>
> Also, if you are shining light into drinking water from a system where
> chemicals are added, some photochemical reactions can occur which
> create taste and odor problems, sometimes. So its probably not the
> bottle's plastic, but the water itself.
While its a crude example. I have carried water to the job which came
out of our distiller and had it taste like plastic by the end of the day
when it did not that morning. Could be harmless could not. Could be a
figment of my imagination.
Look, all this said, we buy gatorade by the case, plastic bottles. In
the summer we by dry gatorade and mix it in the job cooler, plastic.
Much of our food comes in plastic. I am right in there with the rest of
em'. That said, heat, hot water lines which sit steeping in hot water
for several minutes if not hours in a well insulated system, and so on
has raised concerns for many and I am one. Homeowners jacking the
aquastat on the water heater. The mere fact that you can taste the
plastic (at least I can) from a home piped with cpvc is concerning. I
can sometimes taste copper as well. That said, I would still rather suck
on a piece of copper ore than I would a crude oil lollipop.
Mark
| |
| Verizon 2006-03-23, 9:21 pm |
| I can't really talk about it. Two manufacturers I have dealing with have had
to replace entire home piping due to leaks. So far, it isn't known as to
what the problems are, could be installation errors or one brand that's not
living up the spec. Wirsbo is the world's largest if I recall properly;
wouldn't recommend going on a quest to find anything better....
Haven't seen the expansion system used, but heard good things about it.
>
> Could you supply a link about the problems with brass PEX fittings?
>
> I'm about to do a repipe in an old home. The flexibility of PEX over
> even soft copper will make the job much easier & I won't have to
> damage the house as much as a copper repipe. I was planning on using
> Wirsbo PEX & their fittings (expansion tool not crimp tool)
>
> cheers
> Bob
>
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