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Moving a whirlpool pump?
|
|
|
| Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. The Aqua Flo pump
was installed on the subfloor and at the foot of the tub within the wall
enclosure. When we are using the feature the roar of the pump is almost
deafening. Even though there is access to the pump via a small wall hatch
in the wall, tearing down the walls to gain good access for sound deadening
insulation is not worth the bigger hassle to us.
Instead, I am thinking of moving the pump down to the crawl space directly
below the tub structure, about 4 feet vertical. I figure this should solve
a good part of the noise problem and thus make the tub more usable.
My preliminary plan was to mount the pump on a concrete block (in the dry
warm cement crawl space) and run 1-1/2" reinforced braided vinyl hoses back
up to the copper plumbing at the tub (inlet and jets) using sch80 pvc insert
fittings there.
Because of the pump's low pressure/ high volume and relatively low temps
generated for the bath, I figured the braided vinyl stuff would be
acceptable. The hoses should also keep sound transfer to a minimum.
However, I need to know if there are any other special considerations (check
valves (priming), hose collapsing, water lift problems, potential motor
damage, etc) in mounting this pump below the tub and/or whether this process
would work properly at all.
Thanks for your suggestions.
Jack
| |
| Grumman-581 2006-03-22, 9:21 pm |
| "Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
news:Y6iUf.524$Ph4.351@edtnps90...
> Instead, I am thinking of moving the pump down to the crawl space directly
> below the tub structure, about 4 feet vertical. I figure this should
solve
> a good part of the noise problem and thus make the tub more usable.
As long as you're thinking about moving it, you might as well think about
adding a heater to it... One of the things that irritates me on the various
houses which I've owned with whirlpool type tubs is that as you're soaking
in them, the water gets cooler faster with the whirlpool on as compared to
when the water just sits in the tub... Basically, the tubing of the tub is
acting as a heat exchanger and allowing the water to cool quicker... You
don't necessarily need a heater than can warm up a tub of cold water to
104F -- one that can just offset losses and maintain the starting
temperature would even be nice... Also, if your whirlpool has an air blower,
that cools off the water quicker... In addition, the air bubbles might be a
portion of your noise problem...
Simplest solution? Get a pair of ear plugs...
| |
|
| Earplugs. Hah.
Actually, if it wasn't for the fact that the tub came with the house when we
bought it some years ago, I think we would never have put one in ..or stuck
in a air bubbler type instead - - less noise at least. And you are probably
right on about the loss of heat from the exchange of both water during
circulation and air induction. But we really don't want the added expense
of buying and installing a heater (I understand they are expensive) as well
as freeing up another couple breakers for the power.
For the few times we actually use the thing, my idea of moving the pump is
only an acceptable idea if it can be done simply.
So, my question stands: is my plan doable?
Jack
"Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:DumUf.8019$uX5.4827@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> "Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:Y6iUf.524$Ph4.351@edtnps90...
> solve
>
> As long as you're thinking about moving it, you might as well think about
> adding a heater to it... One of the things that irritates me on the
> various
> houses which I've owned with whirlpool type tubs is that as you're soaking
> in them, the water gets cooler faster with the whirlpool on as compared to
> when the water just sits in the tub... Basically, the tubing of the tub is
> acting as a heat exchanger and allowing the water to cool quicker... You
> don't necessarily need a heater than can warm up a tub of cold water to
> 104F -- one that can just offset losses and maintain the starting
> temperature would even be nice... Also, if your whirlpool has an air
> blower,
> that cools off the water quicker... In addition, the air bubbles might be
> a
> portion of your noise problem...
>
> Simplest solution? Get a pair of ear plugs...
>
>
| |
| Grumman-581 2006-03-23, 1:21 am |
| In alt.building.construction, "Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in
message news:I_mUf.586$Ph4.321@edtnps90...
> Earplugs. Hah.
Yeah, laugh all you want, but it's the cheapest solution that you're likely
to get... Less than a buck and you can get 29-31 dB reduction in sound
level... Let's see how much that much reduction costs you with other
methods... <grin>
> Actually, if it wasn't for the fact that the tub came with the house when
we
> bought it some years ago, I think we would never have put one in ..or
stuck
> in a air bubbler type instead - - less noise at least.
Same here... Frankly, in the last 3 houses that I've owned, each of the
whirlpool tubs got used only a couple of times each year -- at most... If
the water stayed warm, they would have been used a bit more... For the most
part, we tend to be a shower family... I tend to only use the whirlpool when
I've done something that resulted in rather sore muscles (e.g. returning
from a week of skiing, etc)... Without a heater, the water cools down enough
within 5 minutes that you need to drain some water and add more hot water...
This is a waste of the heat that is already in the water that you are
draining... Now, if you have someone who can boil some water on the stove
and swap it out with your bathwater periodically while you're in the tub,
great... If not, either get used to having a whirlpool of cooler water or
buy a heater for your whirlpool...
When I finally get around to designing and building my ultimate house, I
want a shower *room*, not a shower *stall*... Something big enough for 4 or
more people... Something that you walk inside instead of stepping into...
Any whirlpool tub would be constructed of concrete, inground, with stone
facing on it and heated... Basically, it would be an indoor hot tub, I
guess...
> But we really don't want the added expense of buying and installing
> a heater (I understand they are expensive) as well as freeing up
> another couple breakers for the power.
I checked on the prices of them recently and they were slightly less than
$200... They are 1500W units...
http://www.bathtubparts.com/heaters.html
There are also some units that scavenge the heat from your pump and use that
to maintain the heat of the water... I don't think that they can necessarily
raise the water temperature, but they claim to at least be able to maintain
it... They were around $210, IIRC... Of course, they require no new
electrical supply...
> For the few times we actually use the thing, my idea of moving the pump is
> only an acceptable idea if it can be done simply.
>
> So, my question stands: is my plan doable?
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> "Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:DumUf.8019$uX5.4827@tornado.texas.rr.com...
about[color=darkred]
soaking[color=darkred]
to[color=darkred]
is[color=darkred]
be[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| phildcrowNOSPAM@yahoo.com 2006-03-23, 10:21 am |
|
Jack wrote:
> Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. The Aqua Flo pump
> was installed on the subfloor and at the foot of the tub within the wall
> enclosure. When we are using the feature the roar of the pump is almost
> deafening.
Snip
Are you sure the pump isn't just old and noisy? I did pool and spa
repairs for a number of years, and as the motors, bearings and seals
wear, they vibrate more. Hence, more noise. It sounds to me that your
easiest fix is to replace the pump. I believe in your post you
mentioned copper water supply lines, so that thing is _old_school_.
Hope it helps,
-Phil Crow
| |
|
| Thanks for the thoughts there. I'll have another look at the heater addon.
But I still have to get my head around the idea of spending much more moolah
...and time.. on this thing. Like you, showers are our mainstay and only
really use the tub to sooth aching parts. We just wanted to get a modicum
of use out of what we already have is all. Earplugs are an idea and that
may happen if I can't satisfy the technical aspects of moving the pump down
below the tub. Jack
"Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:%YpUf.8458$uX5.3134@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> In alt.building.construction, "Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in
> message news:I_mUf.586$Ph4.321@edtnps90...
>
> Yeah, laugh all you want, but it's the cheapest solution that you're
> likely
> to get... Less than a buck and you can get 29-31 dB reduction in sound
> level... Let's see how much that much reduction costs you with other
> methods... <grin>
>
> we
> stuck
>
> Same here... Frankly, in the last 3 houses that I've owned, each of the
> whirlpool tubs got used only a couple of times each year -- at most... If
> the water stayed warm, they would have been used a bit more... For the
> most
> part, we tend to be a shower family... I tend to only use the whirlpool
> when
> I've done something that resulted in rather sore muscles (e.g. returning
> from a week of skiing, etc)... Without a heater, the water cools down
> enough
> within 5 minutes that you need to drain some water and add more hot
> water...
> This is a waste of the heat that is already in the water that you are
> draining... Now, if you have someone who can boil some water on the stove
> and swap it out with your bathwater periodically while you're in the tub,
> great... If not, either get used to having a whirlpool of cooler water or
> buy a heater for your whirlpool...
>
> When I finally get around to designing and building my ultimate house, I
> want a shower *room*, not a shower *stall*... Something big enough for 4
> or
> more people... Something that you walk inside instead of stepping into...
> Any whirlpool tub would be constructed of concrete, inground, with stone
> facing on it and heated... Basically, it would be an indoor hot tub, I
> guess...
>
>
> I checked on the prices of them recently and they were slightly less than
> $200... They are 1500W units...
> http://www.bathtubparts.com/heaters.html
>
> There are also some units that scavenge the heat from your pump and use
> that
> to maintain the heat of the water... I don't think that they can
> necessarily
> raise the water temperature, but they claim to at least be able to
> maintain
> it... They were around $210, IIRC... Of course, they require no new
> electrical supply...
>
> about
> soaking
> to
> is
> be
>
>
| |
|
| Yeah, I know. But in order to replace all the copper surrounding the tub,
we would have to literally wreck the walls around it and then replumb. It
is an old system with 6 fixed jets and an air intake on the rear deck. The
pump is an older model but it hasn't seen much use over the years
...probably due to its overall noise.
So.. can this pump be moved to the crawl space? It seems such a simple
operation but I'm not sure if it will technically work. Jack
<phildcrowNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143122856.709507.204820@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jack wrote:
> Snip
>
> Are you sure the pump isn't just old and noisy? I did pool and spa
> repairs for a number of years, and as the motors, bearings and seals
> wear, they vibrate more. Hence, more noise. It sounds to me that your
> easiest fix is to replace the pump. I believe in your post you
> mentioned copper water supply lines, so that thing is _old_school_.
>
> Hope it helps,
>
> -Phil Crow
>
| |
| Grumman-581 2006-03-23, 12:21 pm |
| "Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
news:fizUf.697$Ph4.449@edtnps90...
> Thanks for the thoughts there. I'll have another look at the heater
addon.
Just trying to point out some things that you might not have considered...
If you're going to the trouble of opening up everything and moving the pump,
plumbing in a heater is probably not that big of a deal...
Just remember that a lot of the noise of the pump is going to be carried by
the physical connection between it and the tub... Moving it a few feet away
is not going to necessarily reduce that sort of transmitted noise... Of
course, the futher you move it away, the more pipe which will act as a
larger heat exchanger, thus reducing your water temperature even quicker...
To maximize the noise reduction, you would need to enclose the pump in some
sort of enclosure, possibly even adding a noise deadening foam to the
enclosure... Depending upon how irritated you are about the sound level, an
acceptable reduction in the sound level might not be easy...
> But I still have to get my head around the idea of spending much more
moolah
> ..and time.. on this thing. Like you, showers are our mainstay and only
> really use the tub to sooth aching parts. We just wanted to get a modicum
> of use out of what we already have is all. Earplugs are an idea and that
> may happen if I can't satisfy the technical aspects of moving the pump
down
> below the tub.
When the muscles are sore, they sure are nice, but all in all, they are one
of the least used items in the various houses that I've owned... The fact
that you pretty much empty a hot water heater trying to fill one up and it
doesn't stay hot long enough for the hot water heater to make up the lost
hot water doesn't really help much either...
Try a set of the memory foam type ear plugs the next time you're using the
whirlpool... They're cheap and comfortable... Then think seriously about
what is going to be necessary for you to achieve 29-31 dB in noise reduction
through other means... You might also want to ensure that the noise that
you're hearing is actually the pump itself and not just the movement of the
water... The addition of air bubbles to the water seems to make a noticeable
increase in the noise level of the whirlpool tubs that I've owned...
| |
| phildcrowNOSPAM@yahoo.com 2006-03-23, 1:21 pm |
|
Jack wrote:
> Yeah, I know. But in order to replace all the copper surrounding the tub,
> we would have to literally wreck the walls around it and then replumb. It
> is an old system with 6 fixed jets and an air intake on the rear deck. The
> pump is an older model but it hasn't seen much use over the years
> ..probably due to its overall noise.
>
> So.. can this pump be moved to the crawl space? It seems such a simple
> operation but I'm not sure if it will technically work. Jack
>
>
I would think so. Adding in a few feet of pipe shouldn't pose too much
of a problem, but adding 4 feet of head to the system may slow down the
flow of water through the jets. The determining factor there would
seem to be the HP of the pump. My preference would be to use PVC
rather than braided flex hose, but that's just because I don't have any
experience with it. Just remember to tape and dope all your screw
joints.
Let me say here and now that I'm not an engineer, nor do I have any
laboratory experience with fluid dynamics or anything like that. I
base my conclusions solely on the experience that I have gained in my
lifetime.
| |
| Phil Scott 2006-03-24, 2:21 am |
| The pump *suction should be in rigid PVC or copper, not hose
because the pump suction will tend to flatten it.
otherwise I dont see a problem... you will not loose pressure
because of the lift because of the added suction pressure with
the pump located low in the basement... it balances with the
head loss
Phil Scott
mech engr.
--
Phil Scott
Ideas are bullet proof.
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
news:Y6iUf.524$Ph4.351@edtnps90...
> Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub.
> The Aqua Flo pump was installed on the subfloor and at the
> foot of the tub within the wall enclosure. When we are
> using the feature the roar of the pump is almost deafening.
> Even though there is access to the pump via a small wall
> hatch in the wall, tearing down the walls to gain good
> access for sound deadening insulation is not worth the
> bigger hassle to us.
>
> Instead, I am thinking of moving the pump down to the crawl
> space directly below the tub structure, about 4 feet
> vertical. I figure this should solve a good part of the
> noise problem and thus make the tub more usable.
>
> My preliminary plan was to mount the pump on a concrete
> block (in the dry warm cement crawl space) and run 1-1/2"
> reinforced braided vinyl hoses back up to the copper
> plumbing at the tub (inlet and jets) using sch80 pvc insert
> fittings there.
>
> Because of the pump's low pressure/ high volume and
> relatively low temps generated for the bath, I figured the
> braided vinyl stuff would be acceptable. The hoses should
> also keep sound transfer to a minimum.
>
>
>
> However, I need to know if there are any other special
> considerations (check valves (priming), hose collapsing,
> water lift problems, potential motor damage, etc) in
> mounting this pump below the tub and/or whether this process
> would work properly at all.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your suggestions.
>
> Jack
>
>
| |
| Hershel Roberson 2006-03-24, 11:21 am |
|
On 23-Mar-2006, "Phil Scott" <philscott@philscott.net> wrote:
> The pump *suction should be in rigid PVC or copper, not hose
> because the pump suction will tend to flatten it.
>
> otherwise I dont see a problem... you will not loose pressure
> because of the lift because of the added suction pressure with
> the pump located low in the basement... it balances with the
> head loss
>
>
> Phil Scott
> mech engr.
One problem though, if the pump is lower than the tub, then you may have
quite a bit of water standing in the pump and lines, which will be a great
place for bacteria to grow.
-Hershel
| |
|
| Thanks for the thoughts and tips, guys.
After thinking about the move, I too got concerned about the column of
standing water in the hoses. As it is we have to purge the system (crap in
the little bit of standing water) before refilling the tub with hot water
...what a wa$te. Also, there may be the little problem of yet more heat
exchanging going on due to the added length of the circuit. So... methinks
I may just leave the pump where it is and try to insulate the pump's noise
better, perhaps even raising it even more to make sure it drains back into
the tub via the tub's intake port. It currently sits on a piece of carpet
where it is lag screwed to the subfloor. I was also contemplating
installing an inline heater but gathering the space for that feature may
prove difficult as I am restricted as to access, and I really don't want to
reno any walls. The wall hatch is only about 14" square - - just enough for
pump service. My wife and I have hardly ever used the tub anyway (showers
mostly) and not sure we would use it more if a heater was installed.
Jack
"Hershel Roberson" <hrjunk01@moment.net> wrote in message
news:e010gr022l1@enews3.newsguy.com...
>
> On 23-Mar-2006, "Phil Scott" <philscott@philscott.net> wrote:
>
>
> One problem though, if the pump is lower than the tub, then you may have
> quite a bit of water standing in the pump and lines, which will be a great
> place for bacteria to grow.
>
> -Hershel
| |
| Budweiser 2006-03-26, 7:21 pm |
|
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
news:Y6iUf.524$Ph4.351@edtnps90...
> Hi. We have an older style whirlpool/jetted acrylic tub. The Aqua Flo
> pump was installed on the subfloor and at the foot of the tub within the
> wall enclosure. When we are using the feature the roar of the pump is
> almost deafening. Even though there is access to the pump via a small
> wall hatch in the wall, tearing down the walls to gain good access for
> sound deadening insulation is not worth the bigger hassle to us.
>
> Instead, I am thinking of moving the pump down to the crawl space directly
> below the tub structure, about 4 feet vertical. I figure this should
> solve a good part of the noise problem and thus make the tub more usable.
>
> My preliminary plan was to mount the pump on a concrete block (in the dry
> warm cement crawl space) and run 1-1/2" reinforced braided vinyl hoses
> back up to the copper plumbing at the tub (inlet and jets) using sch80 pvc
> insert fittings there.
>
> Because of the pump's low pressure/ high volume and relatively low temps
> generated for the bath, I figured the braided vinyl stuff would be
> acceptable. The hoses should also keep sound transfer to a minimum.
>
>
>
> However, I need to know if there are any other special considerations
> (check valves (priming), hose collapsing, water lift problems, potential
> motor damage, etc) in mounting this pump below the tub and/or whether this
> process would work properly at all.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your suggestions.
>
> Jack
>
>
There are two ways a pump makes noise.
mechanical---doing what it does,noise from bearings,electric motor
etc --damp this by putting it on an anti vibration mat,something like 25mm
(1 inch) neoprene mat or similar will do the job --the pumps we mount are
considerably larger than a whirlpool supply (well unless you have a feed in
excess of 12 inch) ---our method is to form a sandwich mounting
block --concrete a layer of neoprene,layer of concrete,layer of neoprene
,layer of concrete ,fix the pump to this also on rubber mounts.
The next place you will get sound is from the vibration transfered to the
pipework---put flexible conectors on feed and supply side,rubber type pipe.
Ensure feed and supply pipes to and from the pool are securely mounted with
rubber type gaskets between the pipe and the clamp at each location.
You will get noise transfered by the water--an option is to add a sealed
tank on the outlet side about a third of the way from the pump to the
outlet,it will act as a muffler,but not reduce flow.
| |
|
| All great ideas. I will check them out. Thanks for the tips, Bud.
...thanks everyone for your time and input!
Jack
"Budweiser" <herethere@everywhere.com> wrote in message
news:d3FVf.39955$zr.21068@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:Y6iUf.524$Ph4.351@edtnps90...
>
> There are two ways a pump makes noise.
> mechanical---doing what it does,noise from bearings,electric motor
> etc --damp this by putting it on an anti vibration mat,something like 25mm
> (1 inch) neoprene mat or similar will do the job --the pumps we mount are
> considerably larger than a whirlpool supply (well unless you have a feed
> in excess of 12 inch) ---our method is to form a sandwich mounting
> block --concrete a layer of neoprene,layer of concrete,layer of neoprene
> ,layer of concrete ,fix the pump to this also on rubber mounts.
> The next place you will get sound is from the vibration transfered to the
> pipework---put flexible conectors on feed and supply side,rubber type
> pipe.
> Ensure feed and supply pipes to and from the pool are securely mounted
> with rubber type gaskets between the pipe and the clamp at each location.
> You will get noise transfered by the water--an option is to add a sealed
> tank on the outlet side about a third of the way from the pump to the
> outlet,it will act as a muffler,but not reduce flow.
>
>
|
|
|
|
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