Building and Construction - Fishing wires through existing construction

Author

Fishing wires through existing construction

acctforjunk@yahoo.com

2006-03-10, 1:23 pm

My house doesn't have lights in the bedrooms, only a switched wall
outlet. It's a ranch-style house, less than 30 years old.

I'd like to put lights in the bedrooms, but fishing wires from the
basement or attic to existing outlet and switch boxes is darn near
impossible. I would prefer not to cut additional holes in the drywall
during this process (other than the one required for the electrical box
on the ceiling).

I have thought of a couple ideas, such as:

1. using magnets to get two fish wires to meet up inside the wall.
2. somehow pry the existing electrical box off the 2x4, and install the
plastic slide-in "old work" boxes. This will allow me to stick my hand
in the wall and grab the fish tape or wire.

I know it's a long shot, but has anyone developed a good method for
doing this?

RicodJour

2006-03-10, 1:23 pm

acctforjunk@yahoo.com wrote:
> My house doesn't have lights in the bedrooms, only a switched wall
> outlet. It's a ranch-style house, less than 30 years old.
>
> I'd like to put lights in the bedrooms, but fishing wires from the
> basement or attic to existing outlet and switch boxes is darn near
> impossible. I would prefer not to cut additional holes in the drywall
> during this process (other than the one required for the electrical box
> on the ceiling).
>
> I have thought of a couple ideas, such as:
>
> 1. using magnets to get two fish wires to meet up inside the wall.
> 2. somehow pry the existing electrical box off the 2x4, and install the
> plastic slide-in "old work" boxes. This will allow me to stick my hand
> in the wall and grab the fish tape or wire.
>
> I know it's a long shot, but has anyone developed a good method for
> doing this?

It's not running the fish tape inside the stud or joist bay that's the
problem (unless there's blocking), but making the transition from
ceiling to wall requires you to drill through the top plate(s).
There's no other way to do it.

Why is it impossible to fish from the attic?

R

ahcohen@gmail.com

2006-03-10, 1:23 pm

I've done a good bit of this and i've tried pretty much everything..
the biggest issue with needing to make new holes is going to be how the
house is built. Example, my house is built "balloon style" this means
that on the outside walls, tehrea re not cross braces between the
studs. So, i've been able to get from the attic down fairily easily.
the first florr is a little more difficult, but once i"m in the wall i
can go straight up and down. If you have cross-braces, you'll have no
luck without the holes - my ceiling was more difficult on the 1st floor
as it seemed that there was never a straight line and I was always
going accross teh 2nd floor joists, causing me nightmares. I got lucky
on a few as I was replacing SOME wiring, but didn't always have luck.
I don't thinkg magnets will work, and what i've found in the end is
that the time to repair the walls, is less than monkeying aournd with
tapes, etc in some of the more difficult cases. Just my two cents.

Doug Kanter

2006-03-10, 1:23 pm

acctforjunk@yahoo.com

2006-03-10, 3:21 pm

It's a problem because I have to fish a wire through a hole drilled in
the top plate, through the wall, into the existing switch
box....without making any extra holes in the drywall.

Doug Kanter

2006-03-10, 4:21 pm

Toller

2006-03-10, 4:21 pm

Bill

2006-03-10, 4:21 pm

If you have an unused wire port in your outlet box, then this might work.
You need two fish lines, they have a hook on the end. Pull about 3 feet out
of the wire holder on each.
Insert one through the outlet hole pointing up, and the other in from the
hole in the top plate. Once both wires are inserted, twist slowly and the
two ends will meet, and then pull in one direction. The fish wire should
come out the other end.
Maybe you might get lucky.

<acctforjunk@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142009717.751477.256390@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> My house doesn't have lights in the bedrooms, only a switched wall
> outlet. It's a ranch-style house, less than 30 years old.
>
> I'd like to put lights in the bedrooms, but fishing wires from the
> basement or attic to existing outlet and switch boxes is darn near
> impossible. I would prefer not to cut additional holes in the drywall
> during this process (other than the one required for the electrical box
> on the ceiling).
>
> I have thought of a couple ideas, such as:
>
> 1. using magnets to get two fish wires to meet up inside the wall.
> 2. somehow pry the existing electrical box off the 2x4, and install the
> plastic slide-in "old work" boxes. This will allow me to stick my hand
> in the wall and grab the fish tape or wire.
>
> I know it's a long shot, but has anyone developed a good method for
> doing this?
>

CWatters

2006-03-10, 5:21 pm

<acctforjunk@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142009717.751477.256390@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> 1. using magnets to get two fish wires to meet up inside the wall.

That sounds ok but I'd use a magnet on a string lowered from above and a
magnet on a wire from below. Measure and mark string so you know it's not
gone below the switch box. Aim to have the magnet say 6" above it.

Doug B Taylor

2006-03-10, 10:21 pm

<acctforjunk@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142009717.751477.256390@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> My house doesn't have lights in the bedrooms, only a switched wall
> outlet. It's a ranch-style house, less than 30 years old.
>
> I'd like to put lights in the bedrooms, but fishing wires from the
> basement or attic to existing outlet and switch boxes is darn near
> impossible. I would prefer not to cut additional holes in the drywall
> during this process (other than the one required for the electrical box
> on the ceiling).
>
> I have thought of a couple ideas, such as:
>
> 1. using magnets to get two fish wires to meet up inside the wall.
> 2. somehow pry the existing electrical box off the 2x4, and install the
> plastic slide-in "old work" boxes. This will allow me to stick my hand
> in the wall and grab the fish tape or wire.
>
> I know it's a long shot, but has anyone developed a good method for
> doing this?
>

Dear Account For Junk -

I would suggest you remove the existing switch box (i.e. Your option #2
above). This will provide you access to the wall cavity.

Cut in the new ceiling box. This will allow you access to the ceiling space.

Since ceiling boxes are 4 inch boxes, you will have more than sufficient
space to get your hand in the ceiling space.

Use your fish wire to fish UP from the switch box. Use another fish wire, a
coat hanger or a piece of solid wire to 'catch' the fish wire and pull it
out the ceiling box opening. Attach your new wired to the fish tape and
pull. Slowly and carefully. It is a real pain to yank the wire off the end
of the fish after all the work to get the fish there the first time.

Magnets of any size you are likely to have access to are not going to
anywhere near powerful enough to do what you want within the space
limitations you have.

If you have to drill holes in studs, sil plates, joists or whatever get
yourself an auger bit on a flexible shaft (I have seen them up to six feet
long).

This type of work is done all the time and at most should only require minor
patching of drywall at the switch box and/or ceiling outlet. However, as
pointed out by other posters, a little drywall patching is sometimes way
more cost/time effective than spending half a day getting one wire to the
new location.

Regards,

Doug

Al Bundy

2006-03-11, 12:21 am

acctforjunk@yahoo.com wrote in news:1142009717.751477.256390
@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

> My house doesn't have lights in the bedrooms, only a switched wall
> outlet. It's a ranch-style house, less than 30 years old.
>
> I'd like to put lights in the bedrooms, but fishing wires from the
> basement or attic to existing outlet and switch boxes is darn near
> impossible. I would prefer not to cut additional holes in the drywall
> during this process (other than the one required for the electrical box
> on the ceiling).
>
> I have thought of a couple ideas, such as:
>
> 1. using magnets to get two fish wires to meet up inside the wall.
> 2. somehow pry the existing electrical box off the 2x4, and install the
> plastic slide-in "old work" boxes. This will allow me to stick my hand
> in the wall and grab the fish tape or wire.
>
> I know it's a long shot, but has anyone developed a good method for
> doing this?
>

Hopefully you have no blocking between the studs. Probably don't.

You are trying to fish through an inside wall with no insulation
hopefully?

I've taken a 4ft level and put it above the center of the box inside to
the ceiling. Where the ceiling meets the wall directly above (or a couple
of inches away make like a 1/16 hole in the ceiling. Push a coat hanger
through so you can see it from the attic.

Go up in the attic and drill hole through plates. Drop string down with
screw/washer/something. Unless if gets misdirected by hitting wires or
something it has to be lined up with the box when it comes down.

I usually just hook it with something when I see the string but that
magnet idea I might try next time.

Just put a dab of painters caulk in the 1/16" hole. No one will even see
it. If it's popcorn/textured ceiling, you won't even find it.

2006-03-11, 12:21 am

On 10 Mar 2006 11:04:19 -0800, acctforjunk@yahoo.com wrote:

>It's a problem because I have to fish a wire through a hole drilled in
>the top plate, through the wall, into the existing switch
>box....without making any extra holes in the drywall.

My house had a switch for a wall receptacle.

I just put in another switch above that one for a ceiling light.
That way I still have the switch for the outlet, and that's good.

It was no trouble learning -- it took no effort; the learning is
automatic -- that the ceiling light switch is a little higher in
those two rooms than in the kitchen, basement, and halls.

Jim Redelfs

2006-03-11, 2:21 pm

In article <QtiQf.2384$kg.1572@news02.roc.ny>,
"Doug Kanter" <ancientangler@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Because fish tape is so springy, I found it to be a total
> pain in the XXX to use. The curve of the tape always seemed
> to get stuck halfway to wherever it was going.

No doubt. An official fish tape is virtually worthless in anything but pipe.
--

RicodJour

2006-03-11, 3:21 pm

Jim Redelfs wrote:
> In article <QtiQf.2384$kg.1572@news02.roc.ny>,
> "Doug Kanter" <ancientangler@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> No doubt. An official fish tape is virtually worthless in anything but pipe.

Doesn't anyone bend the fish tape and also twist the reel to guide the
tip? The set in the tape can be an advantage if you use it instead of
fighting it.

R

Doug Kanter

2006-03-11, 5:21 pm

"Jim Redelfs" <jim.redelfs@nospamredelfs.com> wrote in message
news:jim.redelfs-F35F40.11450511032006@news.central.cox.net...
> In article <QtiQf.2384$kg.1572@news02.roc.ny>,
> "Doug Kanter" <ancientangler@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> No doubt. An official fish tape is virtually worthless in anything but
> pipe.

They make an interesting boingy sound sometimes. Handy if you're collecting
sound effects for a cartoon. But that's about it.

Doug Kanter

2006-03-11, 5:21 pm

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1142101961.839190.178720@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Jim Redelfs wrote:
>
> Doesn't anyone bend the fish tape and also twist the reel to guide the
> tip? The set in the tape can be an advantage if you use it instead of
> fighting it.
>
> R
>

Why bother when there's a tool that's so much better, and one which is
already owned by anyone trying to run wire?

Jim Redelfs

2006-03-11, 8:21 pm

In article <2tGQf.2519$kg.2190@news02.roc.ny>,
"Doug Kanter" <ancientangler@hotmail.com> wrote:

> They make an interesting boingy sound sometimes. Handy if you're collecting
> sound effects for a cartoon. But that's about it.

Hehehehe!

It should be pointed out that fishing walls is NOT always successful.
Occasionally, one must give up and repair the wall.

Also, fishing an INSULATED wall is usually very damaging to the insulation,
whether the fish was successful or not.

I have done SHORT fishes of insulated walls. The customer got the phone jack
where they wanted it and, since I am very careful, they never see the wads of
fiberglass insulation that I extracted in the process.
--

RicodJour

2006-03-12, 1:21 am

Doug Kanter wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>
> Why bother when there's a tool that's so much better, and one which is
> already owned by anyone trying to run wire?

I'm nor sure if you're mentioning the NM 3-wire from your earlier post
or referring to another tool. Which is it?

I've been frustrated by blocking, blockage, and bizarre construction,
but I've never found the fish tape itself to be an insurmountable
obstacle. I know a fair bit about how framing techniques changed over
the years and where to expect problems. I'm usually not walking into a
house cold and trying to run a line, so that's an advantage, too. I've
never really felt that the fish tape was useless.

I pull out a section of the tape and bend it roughly straight to
eliminate the curve it picked up in the reel. Then I bend the tip to
skip over the lath or the "field" of obstructions, or to keep it
pressing up against a smooth surface. If I know that the tape has to
curve in a general direction, I'll give the tape a tweak every so often
as I insert it into the hole.

As a last resort, and since I'm looking at the clock most of the time,
I'll call it quits If I find that I'm spending more time than it's
worth just to keep from cutting a small hole. Usually it's not the
existence of the hole, but where and how big it is that can be the
problem. Behind pictures, couches or inside a closet are natural
places to chop a hole.

I'd like to try one of the fiberglass fish "tapes", the round ones, to
see how much easier they are to use. I ran across a tape that can be
controlled to curve in the direction you want - that'd be a fun to play
with. I'd also love to have a video camera on the end of a tape.
That's the real problem - there are so many tools that I'd like to own,
and so little time and money!

R

Doug Kanter

2006-03-12, 1:21 am

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1142136876.023280.57190@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
> I'm nor sure if you're mentioning the NM 3-wire from your earlier post
> or referring to another tool. Which is it?

I'm referring to NM wire. Depending on what you're up against, you can
either use the entire bundle, or just a single wire that you've removed from
the bundle. In terms of size, a single strand of 14 is no larger than fish
tape. It's easier to bend into a functional shape, too. The only reason to
own a fish tape is to feel all official and handy & shit.

RicodJour

2006-03-12, 2:21 am

Doug Kanter wrote:
>
> I'm referring to NM wire. Depending on what you're up against, you can
> either use the entire bundle, or just a single wire that you've removed from
> the bundle. In terms of size, a single strand of 14 is no larger than fish
> tape. It's easier to bend into a functional shape, too. The only reason to
> own a fish tape is to feel all official and handy & shit.

I like to have mine hanging from my belt loop when I go for my morning
cup of coffee. Makes me feel all official and shit. ;)

R

Al Bundy

2006-03-12, 2:21 am

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in
news:1142136876.023280.57190@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
> I'm nor sure if you're mentioning the NM 3-wire from your earlier post
> or referring to another tool. Which is it?
>
> I've been frustrated by blocking, blockage, and bizarre construction,
> but I've never found the fish tape itself to be an insurmountable
> obstacle. I know a fair bit about how framing techniques changed
> over the years and where to expect problems. I'm usually not walking
> into a house cold and trying to run a line, so that's an advantage,
> too. I've never really felt that the fish tape was useless.
>
> I pull out a section of the tape and bend it roughly straight to
> eliminate the curve it picked up in the reel. Then I bend the tip to
> skip over the lath or the "field" of obstructions, or to keep it
> pressing up against a smooth surface. If I know that the tape has to
> curve in a general direction, I'll give the tape a tweak every so
> often as I insert it into the hole.
>
> As a last resort, and since I'm looking at the clock most of the time,
> I'll call it quits If I find that I'm spending more time than it's
> worth just to keep from cutting a small hole. Usually it's not the
> existence of the hole, but where and how big it is that can be the
> problem. Behind pictures, couches or inside a closet are natural
> places to chop a hole.
>
> I'd like to try one of the fiberglass fish "tapes", the round ones, to
> see how much easier they are to use. I ran across a tape that can be
> controlled to curve in the direction you want - that'd be a fun to
> play with. I'd also love to have a video camera on the end of a tape.
> That's the real problem - there are so many tools that I'd like to
> own, and so little time and money!
>
> R
>

> I'd also love to have a video camera on the end of a tape.

Maybe your proctologist will give you a deal on a used one?

Peter Shepherd

2006-03-12, 4:21 am

One low-voltage wire installer I saw used the thin beaded chain dropped from
the top & magnets attached to a fish or stick at bottom access hole to catch
chain when fishing down long open vertical cavities, then pulled string from
them, then the wire. He also had the sectional fibreglass rods describe
earlier, however they were much thinner than many sold in big box stores &
electrical supplies; he got them from an alarm equipment supplier. They
were about 8 or 10' long I think, the thicker one (still thinner than the
ones I've seen in H Depot) was about $20 (in 2001), & the thin one about
$45. Either could be bent in a fairly tight radius (12" for the one I saw
him use) for feeding from tight spaces such as from within a closet, & would
slide easily between v barrier & backside of drywall through insulated walls
without destroying insulation as previous poster noted with regular fish
tape & hook.

Peter

"Al Bundy" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:Xns9782E30C7B8A3AlBundy@216.196.97.142...
> acctforjunk@yahoo.com wrote in news:1142009717.751477.256390
> @v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> Hopefully you have no blocking between the studs. Probably don't.
>
> You are trying to fish through an inside wall with no insulation
> hopefully?
>
> I've taken a 4ft level and put it above the center of the box inside to
> the ceiling. Where the ceiling meets the wall directly above (or a couple
> of inches away make like a 1/16 hole in the ceiling. Push a coat hanger
> through so you can see it from the attic.
>
> Go up in the attic and drill hole through plates. Drop string down with
> screw/washer/something. Unless if gets misdirected by hitting wires or
> something it has to be lined up with the box when it comes down.
>
> I usually just hook it with something when I see the string but that
> magnet idea I might try next time.
>
> Just put a dab of painters caulk in the 1/16" hole. No one will even see
> it. If it's popcorn/textured ceiling, you won't even find it.

The Carters

2006-03-12, 10:21 am

Most of the posts are on fishing, so I'll leave all that good advice in
place. I will place a strong "Yes" vote for Option 2, prying off the old
box and putting in an "old work" box. I have done it a number of times,
mostly for the reason you state, being able to get your hands in the cavity.
Old work boxes work exactly as advertised, with one caveat. Your switch
plate over the box has to be large enough to cover the tabs of the old work
box on the outside (room-side) of the box. many of the switch plates are
small, and a little bit of the blue tab still sticks out. Another issue is
that the tabs stick out about 1/8" from the drywall, so the switch plates
that to me have worked best are those slightly larger metal plates that have
a roundover on the ends. Those cover both the tab length and thickness.

Greg

<acctforjunk@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142009717.751477.256390@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> My house doesn't have lights in the bedrooms, only a switched wall
> outlet. It's a ranch-style house, less than 30 years old.
>
> I'd like to put lights in the bedrooms, but fishing wires from the
> basement or attic to existing outlet and switch boxes is darn near
> impossible. I would prefer not to cut additional holes in the drywall
> during this process (other than the one required for the electrical box
> on the ceiling).
>
> I have thought of a couple ideas, such as:
>
> 1. using magnets to get two fish wires to meet up inside the wall.
> 2. somehow pry the existing electrical box off the 2x4, and install the
> plastic slide-in "old work" boxes. This will allow me to stick my hand
> in the wall and grab the fish tape or wire.
>
> I know it's a long shot, but has anyone developed a good method for
> doing this?
>

Terry

2006-03-12, 10:21 am

>
> Maybe your proctologist will give you a deal on a used one?
..
Considering they go 'Where the sun don't shine" you'll also need a light!

Don Young

2006-03-13, 12:21 am

"Doug Kanter" <ancientangler@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9yNQf.17225$qg.16930@news01.roc.ny...
> "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
> news:1142136876.023280.57190@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> I'm referring to NM wire. Depending on what you're up against, you can
> either use the entire bundle, or just a single wire that you've removed
> from the bundle. In terms of size, a single strand of 14 is no larger than
> fish tape. It's easier to bend into a functional shape, too. The only
> reason to own a fish tape is to feel all official and handy & shit.
>
Sometimes a piece of #4 copper ground wire can be bent and pushed where you
need to snag a chain, wire, string, etc. to feed the wire. I found it to be
particularly helpful in reaching across ceiling joists under low eaves and
also in low crawl spaces. You can also feed it in any direction inside wall
cavities and make it enter small openings such as drill holes, box openings,
or narrow gaps in the framing.

Don Young

jimmiefender@bellsouth.net

2006-05-14, 2:21 am

<acctforjunk@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142017458.982112.42200@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> It's a problem because I have to fish a wire through a hole drilled in
> the top plate, through the wall, into the existing switch
> box....without making any extra holes in the drywall.
>

I just fished a wire to a switch. Made a hole just above the switch that
would be covered by the switch cover. Ran the wire in from the top threw the
plate then fished for the wire with a hook made from an old clothes hanger.
Worked for me.

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