Building and Construction - Getting Three Estimates from Contractors

Author

Getting Three Estimates from Contractors

Nehmo Sergheyev

2006-05-21, 4:21 pm

Many Home repair/renovation-advice TV segments, government pamphlets,
web pages, newsgroup postings, and so on, advocate that the homeowner
get three (I've even seen recommendations for more) estimates before
selecting a contractor. These advisers then have a variety of methods
to proceed: average the estimates and keep looking, pick the middle,
pick the guy you like, or sometimes they provide no further advice. The
homeowner, lacking any better criteria, may very well take the lowest
bid or estimate. Consequently, often the homeowner then gets the lowest
quality job.

Most of these advisers don't encourage the homeowner to spend time
actually educating themselves on the type of work they want.

For residential jobs, everything associated with houses, the standard
is for the estimates to be free to the homeowner. Thus, contractors are
wasting time, gas, and aggravation unless the estimate yields a job.
Occasionally, a homeowner will recognize this and thank the contractor
for his time, but usually the homeowner is oblivious.

Let's look at this form the perspective of the *average* contractor,
that is, average in his ability to land jobs. Assuming all customers
get three estimates, the contractor must then do three estimates in
order to get one job - a day's work, perhaps. When we factor-in the
many customers who will never buy the job from anybody, the
contractor's ratio gets worse. When we figure-in that the contractor
must refuse some jobs, the ratio gets worse yet. So how does the
contractor compensate for this loss? The same way stores compensate for
employee-theft and shoplifting, they charge the paying customers for
it. That's where all the money comes from.

What else does the contractor do to limit his losses? He qualifies his
customers. In other words, if while on the call with a potential
customer, the contractor perceives the customer to be shopping, or
worse, *just* shopping, the contractor will then find some way to end
the call. The then rejected potential customer may try the next
contractor on his or her list, but he of she has lost the opportunity
to use the rejecting contractor, and often these people are the best
contractors.

Sometimes when you can get something for free, it's not ethical nor
beneficial to take it.

How then should a customer select a contractor? First he or she should
educate themselves on the work that needs to be done. Then, calling a
few contractors is fine, and even getting three estimates is correct in
some situations. But indiscriminately wasting people's time is abusing
the system and it will put off the contractor who is perhaps the
homeowner's best bet.

--
(||) Nehmo (||)

marson

2006-05-21, 5:21 pm

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
> Many Home repair/renovation-advice TV segments, government pamphlets,
> web pages, newsgroup postings, and so on, advocate that the homeowner
> get three (I've even seen recommendations for more) estimates before
> selecting a contractor. These advisers then have a variety of methods
> to proceed: average the estimates and keep looking, pick the middle,
> pick the guy you like, or sometimes they provide no further advice. The
> homeowner, lacking any better criteria, may very well take the lowest
> bid or estimate. Consequently, often the homeowner then gets the lowest
> quality job.
>
> Most of these advisers don't encourage the homeowner to spend time
> actually educating themselves on the type of work they want.
>
> For residential jobs, everything associated with houses, the standard
> is for the estimates to be free to the homeowner. Thus, contractors are
> wasting time, gas, and aggravation unless the estimate yields a job.
> Occasionally, a homeowner will recognize this and thank the contractor
> for his time, but usually the homeowner is oblivious.
>
> Let's look at this form the perspective of the *average* contractor,
> that is, average in his ability to land jobs. Assuming all customers
> get three estimates, the contractor must then do three estimates in
> order to get one job - a day's work, perhaps. When we factor-in the
> many customers who will never buy the job from anybody, the
> contractor's ratio gets worse. When we figure-in that the contractor
> must refuse some jobs, the ratio gets worse yet. So how does the
> contractor compensate for this loss? The same way stores compensate for
> employee-theft and shoplifting, they charge the paying customers for
> it. That's where all the money comes from.
>
> What else does the contractor do to limit his losses? He qualifies his
> customers. In other words, if while on the call with a potential
> customer, the contractor perceives the customer to be shopping, or
> worse, *just* shopping, the contractor will then find some way to end
> the call. The then rejected potential customer may try the next
> contractor on his or her list, but he of she has lost the opportunity
> to use the rejecting contractor, and often these people are the best
> contractors.
>
> Sometimes when you can get something for free, it's not ethical nor
> beneficial to take it.
>
> How then should a customer select a contractor? First he or she should
> educate themselves on the work that needs to be done. Then, calling a
> few contractors is fine, and even getting three estimates is correct in
> some situations. But indiscriminately wasting people's time is abusing
> the system and it will put off the contractor who is perhaps the
> homeowner's best bet.

good point, nehmo!

i so often read on these groups the advice "get three written
estimates" even for jobs amounting to a few hundred bucks. in a lot of
areas, you would be lucky to get someone to call you back let alone get
a written estimate.

when i was a contractor, i refused to bid on jobs if i knew there were
other people bidding on it. first, i had plenty of work without
bidding. second, i believe in doing first rate work. if i was
underbid, it was because the competitor either forgot something, or was
cutting corners that i was not willing to cut.

in the instances where i was required to bid, i bid it high enough to
make sure that i wouldn't lose on it. if you can find a contractor you
can trust, pay him by the hour. it might be cheaper in the long run.
>
> --
> (||) Nehmo (||)

M&S

2006-05-21, 5:21 pm

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
> Many Home repair/renovation-advice TV segments, government pamphlets,
> web pages, newsgroup postings, and so on, advocate that the homeowner
> get three (I've even seen recommendations for more) estimates before
> selecting a contractor. These advisers then have a variety of methods
> to proceed: average the estimates and keep looking, pick the middle,
> pick the guy you like, or sometimes they provide no further advice. The
> homeowner, lacking any better criteria, may very well take the lowest
> bid or estimate. Consequently, often the homeowner then gets the lowest
> quality job.
>
> Most of these advisers don't encourage the homeowner to spend time
> actually educating themselves on the type of work they want.
>
> For residential jobs, everything associated with houses, the standard
> is for the estimates to be free to the homeowner. Thus, contractors are
> wasting time, gas, and aggravation unless the estimate yields a job.
> Occasionally, a homeowner will recognize this and thank the contractor
> for his time, but usually the homeowner is oblivious.
>
> Let's look at this form the perspective of the *average* contractor,
> that is, average in his ability to land jobs. Assuming all customers
> get three estimates, the contractor must then do three estimates in
> order to get one job - a day's work, perhaps. When we factor-in the
> many customers who will never buy the job from anybody, the
> contractor's ratio gets worse. When we figure-in that the contractor
> must refuse some jobs, the ratio gets worse yet. So how does the
> contractor compensate for this loss? The same way stores compensate for
> employee-theft and shoplifting, they charge the paying customers for
> it. That's where all the money comes from.
>
> What else does the contractor do to limit his losses? He qualifies his
> customers. In other words, if while on the call with a potential
> customer, the contractor perceives the customer to be shopping, or
> worse, *just* shopping, the contractor will then find some way to end
> the call. The then rejected potential customer may try the next
> contractor on his or her list, but he of she has lost the opportunity
> to use the rejecting contractor, and often these people are the best
> contractors.
>
> Sometimes when you can get something for free, it's not ethical nor
> beneficial to take it.
>
> How then should a customer select a contractor? First he or she should
> educate themselves on the work that needs to be done. Then, calling a
> few contractors is fine, and even getting three estimates is correct in
> some situations. But indiscriminately wasting people's time is abusing
> the system and it will put off the contractor who is perhaps the
> homeowner's best bet.
>
> --
> (||) Nehmo (||)
>

With regards to your first question, from a contractors point of view, I
think you best answered the question yourself when when you say the
contractor "qualifies" his or her customers. Thats all one can do.

We have always chosen to flip your scenario on its head making "us" the
ones who "choose" to work for the customer not the other way around.
Qualifying the customer is exactly what we do. That said, we have always
been fortunate to have work booked out a for months or even years, which
has allowed us to basically say "hey, you want on the list, fine, but
dont waste my time if your not serious". Of course we say it nicer than
that, hehe.

In our business we have always been up front and honest with the
customer telling them point blank that the detailed quoting process is a
very time consuming and costly investment and that we will give them
some very clear/firm numbers based on the general scope of their project
but then it is up to them to decide, based on our work/references, and
their "feel" for us, whether we take it to the next level. Once a more
firm commitment is made we will begin to invest the real time but we are
not doing itemized quotes on speculation.

As far as the customer goes, I personally think very little of the
decision to commit to a given contractor is based on the quote. Perhaps
in commodity type work (replacement windows, simple decks, etc.) its
different but I am talking more in the line of homes, additions, design
work, and so on. Our experience is that it is more so based on their
impression of you, your work, your ideas, and so on. From our customers
we know that we are more often the higher contractor rather than the
lower. Our customers have always said the decision is all about a
combination of reputation, references, ideas/creativity, personality,
and the like. Price is almost never in the list.

Commodity work would be a whole different ball game in which I wouldnt
want to play, but none the less much of the same applies. It definitely
applies to landing more work down the road and building a better
reputation making one more sought after allowing one to get out of the
commodity business.

Thats just our take on it,
Mark

udarrell

2006-05-21, 5:21 pm

CWatters

2006-05-22, 7:21 am

"Nehmo Sergheyev" <nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148236357.568906.286890@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> How then should a customer select a contractor?

I'm having a new one off house built. Here is how I selected a builder. I
may have the numbers slightly wrong but it went something like this....

Long before we needed to select one I was out looking at other projects. Any
nice house being built I would stop and chat to whoever was on site. Several
builders showed me around houses that they were working on. The quality
difference was amazing but so was their attitude. Usually I asked a few
questions that I half knew the answer to. Sometimes I got the answer "oh you
don't want to worry about that - we take care of all that". Humm. In such
cases their card was usually torn up before I got back in the car. Others
were much more responsive and they explained how they did things and why
they did it their way. Of around 12 builders I met, two impressed me enough
to go on the short list. One was very keen as he was just finishing a superb
house down the road from our site - lets call him Builder A.

For the short list my architect recommended two companies and my Quantity
Surveyor also recommended two. So we had six in total. We sent out an
initial letter to all six together with a 3D CAD drawing/render showing what
the house was like and a one page description. We asked them to let us know
if they were interested in bidding. I think 5 said yes and 1 declined.

I then went to visit the 5 builders. I asked to see two projects - a house
they had completed and a house in progress. I guess I spent about two hours
with each builder. I was able to cross one off the list - they mainly built
small estates of nearly identical design and of a lower standard than I was
looking for.

So we sent out four drawing packs (each of which contained about 40-50
drawings and a specification that ran to 50 pages). We asked for sealed bids
to be returned in 4 weeks (or was it 6 weeks?).

Most bids arrived on the last day. Three were nearly identical and were
within 1% of the figues that my QS had estimated. One was about 5% lower.
This bid was from builder A who had been keen to get the job and who had
impressed me when I met him. Due to the complexity of the project my
quantity surveyor wanted to check the winning bid to ensure nothing had been
missed - it hadn't so he got the job.

The project is now around 75% completed and our builder continues to
impress. The quality is about the best I've seen.

Nehmo Sergheyev

2006-05-22, 11:21 am

You met Builder A in the second paragraph. You could have just gone
with him then and saved everybody a bunch of trouble.

--
(||) Nehmo (||)

CWatters wrote:
> I'm having a new one off house built. Here is how I selected a builder. I
> may have the numbers slightly wrong but it went something like this....
>
> Long before we needed to select one I was out looking at other projects. Any
> nice house being built I would stop and chat to whoever was on site. Several
> builders showed me around houses that they were working on. The quality
> difference was amazing but so was their attitude. Usually I asked a few
> questions that I half knew the answer to. Sometimes I got the answer "oh you
> don't want to worry about that - we take care of all that". Humm. In such
> cases their card was usually torn up before I got back in the car. Others
> were much more responsive and they explained how they did things and why
> they did it their way. Of around 12 builders I met, two impressed me enough
> to go on the short list. One was very keen as he was just finishing a superb
> house down the road from our site - lets call him Builder A.
>
> For the short list my architect recommended two companies and my Quantity
> Surveyor also recommended two. So we had six in total. We sent out an
> initial letter to all six together with a 3D CAD drawing/render showing what
> the house was like and a one page description. We asked them to let us know
> if they were interested in bidding. I think 5 said yes and 1 declined.
>
> I then went to visit the 5 builders. I asked to see two projects - a house
> they had completed and a house in progress. I guess I spent about two hours
> with each builder. I was able to cross one off the list - they mainly built
> small estates of nearly identical design and of a lower standard than I was
> looking for.
>
> So we sent out four drawing packs (each of which contained about 40-50
> drawings and a specification that ran to 50 pages). We asked for sealed bids
> to be returned in 4 weeks (or was it 6 weeks?).
>
> Most bids arrived on the last day. Three were nearly identical and were
> within 1% of the figues that my QS had estimated. One was about 5% lower.
> This bid was from builder A who had been keen to get the job and who had
> impressed me when I met him. Due to the complexity of the project my
> quantity surveyor wanted to check the winning bid to ensure nothing had been
> missed - it hadn't so he got the job.
>
> The project is now around 75% completed and our builder continues to
> impress. The quality is about the best I've seen.

trader4@optonline.net

2006-05-22, 2:21 pm

>How then should a customer select a contractor? First he or she should
>educate themselves on the work that needs to be done. Then, calling a
>few contractors is fine, and even getting three estimates is correct in
>some situations. But indiscriminately wasting people's time is abusing
>the system and it will put off the contractor who is perhaps the
>homeowner's best bet.

"Even getting three estimates is correct in some situations?" If
someone has a legitimate job to do, there is nothing wrong with getting
3 estimates period. No one is forcing any contractor to come give an
estimate. And if someone is dumb enough to think they are doing the
contractors a favor by not getting three estimates, while most people
do, they can live with the consequences. Do you think the contractor
is going to give the guy that only calls for one estimate a break?
LOL

Sasha

2006-05-22, 4:21 pm

If you refuse bidding on project when there are other bidders I would
not even talk to you and not advise anyone to use you in any project.
Bidding is choosing best person or company to do the job at best price,
it is not choosing the winner solely on price. When you want to buy a
car do you come to the first car dealer and buy first car you are
offered?

Providing good reliable estimates along with details how and when the
project will be done is important part of a professional be he a
general contractor or aircraft designer. If you think you waste time
think when military contractors like Boeing and Lockheed Martin put
tens of millions of dollars to create full functioning models to show
to military in hope to win a bid. And only one is a winner, other loose.

RicodJour

2006-05-22, 6:21 pm

Sasha wrote:
> If you refuse bidding on project when there are other bidders I would
> not even talk to you and not advise anyone to use you in any project.

That's a two way street, isn't it? If the contractor doesn't do
competitive bidding, the first thing they'll ask you on the phone,
before they even come out to look at the job, is if there will be other
bidders. If so, they won't talk to you. These are not the guys that
advertise in the yellow pages. They generally have more work than they
can handle, so what's the point in advertising and engaging in
competitive bidding?

> Bidding is choosing best person or company to do the job at best price,
> it is not choosing the winner solely on price. When you want to buy a
> car do you come to the first car dealer and buy first car you are
> offered?

If I've done my homework, know the dealer's cost for the car, and he
accepts my offer, sure. Why not.

But we're not talking about cars. We're talking about custom
construction, not a commodity. There are many more factors involved.

> Providing good reliable estimates along with details how and when the
> project will be done is important part of a professional be he a
> general contractor or aircraft designer. If you think you waste time
> think when military contractors like Boeing and Lockheed Martin put
> tens of millions of dollars to create full functioning models to show
> to military in hope to win a bid. And only one is a winner, other loose.

That's certainly one way to look at it, and I can understand the
reasoning. But if you look at the situation from a different angle you
may see things differently.

I do not bid on jobs. There's really little point. I already know my
price is going to be higher than almost anyone else. Not because I'm
making more money, but because I refuse to do anything less than the
best work I can. The attention to detail and experience I offer isn't
a commodity. I'm the only one offering my services. To some people
it's not worth the money - I don't work for those people so there's
really no reason for me to give them a bid.

All of my work comes from referrals. People have seen my work and know
what to expect. Unfortunately (or not) I have to turn work away as
there's only so much of me to go around. I tell people I do fine work
and I expect to get paid accordingly.

For people that aren't interested in the highest quality of work, and
the higher or highest price, well, there are always other contractors
who are happy to take that work. Everyone wins.

R

CWatters

2006-05-22, 8:21 pm

"Nehmo Sergheyev" <nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148306537.233597.183960@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> You met Builder A in the second paragraph. You could have just gone
> with him then and saved everybody a bunch of trouble.

Yes but would he have given me the same price had he known he was the only
bidder?

RicodJour

2006-05-22, 8:21 pm

CWatters wrote:
> "Nehmo Sergheyev" <nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
> Yes but would he have given me the same price had he known he was the only
> bidder?

Maybe, maybe not. Seems to me that you're impressed with the guy and
he's earned your respect. If so, why assume that he'd have jacked up
the price if he thought he was the only bidder? Why don't you ask him
and get back to us with his answer?

I think it's fine the way you went around finding a builder and I'm
glad it worked out for you.

R

nailshooter41@aol.com

2006-05-23, 4:21 am

I like to get a feel for any potential clients on the phone to make
sure they really have an interest, and that they aren't just kicking
the tires. If they are kicking the tires, I usually give them a five
minute education on the phone, and a round number for repairs or
maintenance, which is what I specialize in. One of the first things I
do is find out who referred me to them so I can get a feel for what
type of client (by association) they might be for me, and see if we can
be a good fit for their requests.

I do not go to see clients on the weekend unless I am backed up, or
they are in some kind of trouble and need something fast. There is no
reason for me to waste a family day talking to somebody that didn't
think enough of what he or she is getting into to take an hour off work
during the week. Worse, if they have so little respect for your work
ethic and responsibilities, think how they will be later on. Those
folks don't ever think that you had a long tiring week doing your
stuff; they think it is your job to exhaust yourself, and if you aren't
willing to do that some are honestly amazed. Years ago I actually had
some prospective clients tell me that I needed to make a decision on
whether I was a family man or a business man. I now only see past
clients of mine on the weekend at their request, but funny, it doesn't
happen but maybe once a year. No kiddin'!

I have been in business long enough for myself (coming up on 25 years)
that I don't really care much about my fellow contractor's bids. We
are all different people, and we all bid differently. I have built
enough of a clientele over the years that I no longer have to sit
politely across from some pudgy, balding, bespectled accountant in a
golf shirt that is spending more time telling me about his summer "in
the trades" that lets him know "where I'm coming from" than his own
project. I don't spend too much time listening to some frustrated
husband trying to deconstruct my estimate so he can proudly announce to
his spouse how much money they think I am making. My idea of "Let's
make a deal" is "please read the estimate".

I don't care if anyone else is bidding on the job or not. My price is
the same no matter what, and that is probably why I have repeat
business without too many competitive bid situations.

A lot of my best clients are women. They know what they want. They
have a plan. They have a budget. They are usually ready to go. They
don't try to impress me with their 6 week stint as a construction
worker during spring break one year. I don't have to listen to some
nitwit babble on about "man stuff". And best of all, they don't show
off for their spouse by showing them they know how to handle
construction people.

My work is all word of mouth and referral. In almost 25 years, I have
advertised twice, and it got the me the kind of clients I didn't want.
I do all my business on my cell phone so I can be easily reached, and
know almost all of my clients by first name. My phone calls usually
start with "Hey Robert... how's it going? I was wondering if you could
stop by sometime soon and see me about _________________________". <<
fill in the blank>>

Stay in the business long enough and do good work, and your business
and clients will take care of you. Then the bullshit factor goes to
half, you get better jobs with more money in them, and the people know
about your work and don't mind paying for extra if they know they are
getting exactly what they want.

Robert

Banty

2006-05-23, 11:21 am

In article <1148366220.532134.274670@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
nailshooter41@aol.com says...
>
>I like to get a feel for any potential clients on the phone to make
>sure they really have an interest, and that they aren't just kicking
>the tires. If they are kicking the tires, I usually give them a five
>minute education on the phone, and a round number for repairs or
>maintenance, which is what I specialize in. One of the first things I
>do is find out who referred me to them so I can get a feel for what
>type of client (by association) they might be for me, and see if we can
>be a good fit for their requests.
>
>I do not go to see clients on the weekend unless I am backed up, or
>they are in some kind of trouble and need something fast. There is no
>reason for me to waste a family day talking to somebody that didn't
>think enough of what he or she is getting into to take an hour off work
>during the week. Worse, if they have so little respect for your work
>ethic and responsibilities, think how they will be later on. Those
>folks don't ever think that you had a long tiring week doing your
>stuff; they think it is your job to exhaust yourself, and if you aren't
>willing to do that some are honestly amazed. Years ago I actually had
>some prospective clients tell me that I needed to make a decision on
>whether I was a family man or a business man. I now only see past
>clients of mine on the weekend at their request, but funny, it doesn't
>happen but maybe once a year. No kiddin'!
>
>I have been in business long enough for myself (coming up on 25 years)
>that I don't really care much about my fellow contractor's bids. We
>are all different people, and we all bid differently. I have built
>enough of a clientele over the years that I no longer have to sit
>politely across from some pudgy, balding, bespectled accountant in a
>golf shirt that is spending more time telling me about his summer "in
>the trades" that lets him know "where I'm coming from" than his own
>project. I don't spend too much time listening to some frustrated
>husband trying to deconstruct my estimate so he can proudly announce to
>his spouse how much money they think I am making. My idea of "Let's
>make a deal" is "please read the estimate".

I had one comment to me - "you're putting this man's kids through college - you
want to put your own kid through college".

???!!?

Why wouldn't a GC want to put his kids through college?? What - that's evil or
something?? And isn't it my business to earn enough, or pace out any remod work
correctly, to deal with my own kid's college finances?

>
>I don't care if anyone else is bidding on the job or not. My price is
>the same no matter what, and that is probably why I have repeat
>business without too many competitive bid situations.
>
>A lot of my best clients are women. They know what they want. They
>have a plan. They have a budget. They are usually ready to go. They
>don't try to impress me with their 6 week stint as a construction
>worker during spring break one year. I don't have to listen to some
>nitwit babble on about "man stuff". And best of all, they don't show
>off for their spouse by showing them they know how to handle
>construction people.

Wow - interesting. I'm a woman, and have had good luck with contractors while
most of the folks around me want to swap horror stories with me. I don't have
any. But I've always gone with the contractor who I can communicate with, and
seemed the most on top of the job during the estimate. Mebbe this is why?

>
>My work is all word of mouth and referral. In almost 25 years, I have
>advertised twice, and it got the me the kind of clients I didn't want.
>I do all my business on my cell phone so I can be easily reached, and
>know almost all of my clients by first name. My phone calls usually
>start with "Hey Robert... how's it going? I was wondering if you could
>stop by sometime soon and see me about _________________________". <<
>fill in the blank>>

Yes, I'm on that status with a contractor. Niether he, nor the mason who did an
extensive foundation repair for me last year, are in the phone book (not under
business, anyway). They're both all word of mouth.

Banty

--

M&S

2006-05-25, 9:21 pm

nailshooter41@aol.com wrote:
> A lot of my best clients are women.

Great post. It all sounds eerily similar to our years in the trade and
Im sure is the same for many. For about the past 10 years we have taken
to boldly suggesting to many husbands that letting their wives do most
of the steering is potentially the wisest thing they could do. Our best
jobs have always been those where the wife manages the job and the
husband just stands back and says "hey, this is her puppy, I just hand
over the cash". Project goes smoother, ideas flow and are received
better, it goes on and on.

A funny example was a second story tear off we did for a couple. The
husband was an engineer and his motto was "the more walls the better".
His reasoning was you can hang things on walls, put desks against them,
shelves on them, and so on. The design had a large second floor
landing/common area that served three bedrooms and a bath. It was a
decent sized space but the design was such that there was really no way
to incorporate the footage into the other rooms. He argued endlessly to
wall off the stairs (which would have made them dark and tunnel like)
because he could hang stuff on that wall. We suggested balustrade with a
nice sitting area, some nice lighting, and such. A bit of a decadent
space. He took the idea like hitting Linda Blair, in the excorcist, with
holy water. His wife fought hard for our option. Over several days their
battle escalated to what seemed like a near divorce! Finally he
furiously gave in. On the last couple days of the project while we were
wrapping up the punch list they had family over for a party. While we
were doing some things in the master bedroom we overheard the guests
ooing and ahhhing over the sitting area and how beautiful it was. We
then heard him say "yes, yes, and can you believe they all wanted to
build a wall here closing in the stairs?" We chuckled as he stuck his
head in the room and snickered.

Mark

LinkBot