Building and Construction - (Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help

Author

(Simple?) I-Beam Load Question-------Please Help

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-06, 3:25 am

I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.

There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.

I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?

Thanks in advance.

Eigenvector

2006-07-06, 3:25 am

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
> ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
> trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
> for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
> about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
> would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
> I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.
>
> There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
> lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
> have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
> to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.
>
> I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
> me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
> of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
> have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>

You need the services of an engineer for this one. The short answer to your
question is yes, but do NOT hold me to that. The equations for calculating
what the I-beam can hold are reasonably trivial, related more to its height
than anything but again talk to an engineer! I wouldn't worry about the
I-beam so much as I would worry about what the I-beam was sitting on, but
for the loads you are talking about the issue is almost trivial.

Joseph Meehan

2006-07-06, 9:25 am

longshot

2006-07-06, 9:25 am

I wouldn't hesitate to span 10 feet with a 500 lb load on any s beam or i
beam over 5" tall. be sure to get one that fits your trolley. again, I am
not an engineer but I have seen platforms spanning over 10 feet constructed
of 4" channel without any problems.

dpb

2006-07-06, 1:25 pm

Goedjn

2006-07-06, 1:25 pm

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 20:27:07 -0700, "Eigenvector"
<m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
><jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>You need the services of an engineer for this one. The short answer to your
>question is yes, but do NOT hold me to that. The equations for calculating
>what the I-beam can hold are reasonably trivial, related more to its height
>than anything but again talk to an engineer! I wouldn't worry about the
>I-beam so much as I would worry about what the I-beam was sitting on, but
>for the loads you are talking about the issue is almost trivial.
>

A 250 pound point load is essentially a person. You could
do the job with a 2x6. You're not going to find an I beam
small enough to notice the generator, so just pick one
that's a convenient size to mount the trolley on.

bitternut

2006-07-06, 1:25 pm

The rain factor would be the least of your problems with that generator in a
pit. That is the last place I would put anything that required gasoline. Any
small leak or spillage could cause a disaster. Gasoline fumes would settle
close to the floor just waiting for a spark to produce an explosion. I would
say put it in a small ventilated hut at ground level.

"Joseph Meehan" <sligojoe_Spamno@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Qf6rg.17803$u11.15873@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
> jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> Let's see. Power outage, often caused by storms. Storms are often
> associated with lots of rain. Rain fills holes in the ground, and you
> want to put an emergency generator into the ground to use during storms.
> Mmmmm....
>
> --
> Joseph Meehan
>
> Dia duit
>

Edwin Pawlowski

2006-07-06, 1:25 pm

"Joseph Meehan" <sligojoe_Spamno@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Let's see. Power outage, often caused by storms. Storms are often
> associated with lots of rain. Rain fills holes in the ground, and you
> want to put an emergency generator into the ground to use during storms.
> Mmmmm....
>

The generator is probably to power a pump to keep the hole empty when it
rains to his generator does not get flooded. Rube Goldberg lives .

2006-07-06, 1:25 pm

dpb wrote:
> jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> A 10-ft span could easily be bridged w/ a 2x8 and safely hold 500 lbs
> (w/ only something over 1/8" deflection if my mental gymnastics weren't
> too far off). For something like that you certainly don't need a metal
> beam unless you just want it for showin' off. In practice, for
> something like this I would probably go with a double 2x6 rather than a
> single 2x8 or 2x10 for a little more lateral rigidity, but certainly
> don't need more for supporting the load safely.
>
> I'm sorta' w/ J Meehan on the application, though...unless you're
> building an enclosed weathertight basement-like structure w/ air supply
> and exhaust provisions seems like the wrong place to put an emergency
> generator...

Yeah, up on a slab would be my choice.
[color=darkred]
>
>

JimL

2006-07-06, 1:25 pm

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 20:27:07 -0700, "Eigenvector"
<m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
><jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>You need the services of an engineer for this one.

Sure, you can hire an engineer at $5,000 or you can spend 20 minutes
on the internet and do it yourself.

Anyone who suggests you hire an engineer is a complete and total
idiot.

mikejames

2006-07-06, 1:25 pm

z wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>
>
> Yeah, up on a slab would be my choice.

Then add a concrete block wall, and pile earth around it for landscaping.

>
>
>
>

crhras

2006-07-06, 1:25 pm

> I have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
> to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.

I'll tell you what to do then.... Take two guys with you to the yard and
have them keep trying to lift beams until they find one that they can. I'd
just use laborers but if you are worried about the beam holding 250 lbs then
make one of them an engineer.

YouGoFirst

2006-07-06, 5:25 pm

trader4@optonline.net

2006-07-06, 5:25 pm

YouGoFirst wrote:
> Not to spoil everybody's fun, but I just have to ask why do you want to have
> a hoist system? The only reason that I would go with anything like that
> would be if I had no friends, and lived 600 miles from anybody. With 3 more
> people and some rope you could easily lower the generator into the pit.
> Unless you have some reason to have a hoist permanently mounted above the
> pit that you haven't explained.
>
> But I do agree with a previous poster, why would you put a generator into a
> pit?

That's pretty much what I was thinking too. The genset only weighs 200
lbs. With 2 or 3 guys and one of those cable winchs you could lower it
in without steel I beams and a trolley hoist. Also curious as to why
the "hole in the ground" has a 10 foot span. That's one hell of a hole
in the ground. Maybe he's building a bomb shelter.

Goedjn

2006-07-06, 5:25 pm

On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 19:12:49 GMT, "YouGoFirst"
<yougofirst@hotmail.com> wrote:

><jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>Not to spoil everybody's fun, but I just have to ask why do you want to have
>a hoist system? The only reason that I would go with anything like that
>would be if I had no friends, and lived 600 miles from anybody. With 3 more
>people and some rope you could easily lower the generator into the pit.
>Unless you have some reason to have a hoist permanently mounted above the
>pit that you haven't explained.

Or this bizzarre technological contraption called a "pulley".

Michael Daly

2006-07-06, 5:25 pm

bitternut wrote:
> Any
> small leak or spillage could cause a disaster. Gasoline fumes would settle
> close to the floor just waiting for a spark to produce an explosion. I would
> say put it in a small ventilated hut at ground level.

Any boat owner with an inboard knows that you vent the engine compartment well
before starting the engine. Vent means a powered blower, not just opening a
little hatch.

Your advise is very good. That pit is a fire risk without proper precautions taken.

Mike

Joseph Meehan

2006-07-06, 5:25 pm

bitternut wrote:
> The rain factor would be the least of your problems with that
> generator in a pit. That is the last place I would put anything that
> required gasoline. Any small leak or spillage could cause a disaster.
> Gasoline fumes would settle close to the floor just waiting for a
> spark to produce an explosion. I would say put it in a small
> ventilated hut at ground level.

I was guessing that his unit was designed to run on natural gas, not
gasoline, but it is not clear. If it is gasoline or propane, I would
certainly agree with the danger you point out.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

RicodJour

2006-07-06, 5:25 pm

Goedjn wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 19:12:49 GMT, "YouGoFirst"
>
>
> Or this bizzarre technological contraption called a "pulley".

There you go again - trying to reinvent the wheel. ;)

R

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

dpb wrote:[color=darkred]
> jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> A 10-ft span could easily be bridged w/ a 2x8 and safely hold 500 lbs
> (w/ only something over 1/8" deflection if my mental gymnastics weren't
> too far off). For something like that you certainly don't need a metal
> beam unless you just want it for showin' off. In practice, for
> something like this I would probably go with a double 2x6 rather than a
> single 2x8 or 2x10 for a little more lateral rigidity, but certainly
> don't need more for supporting the load safely.
>
> I'm sorta' w/ J Meehan on the application, though...unless you're
> building an enclosed weathertight basement-like structure w/ air supply
> and exhaust provisions seems like the wrong place to put an emergency
> generator...
>
>

This stand-by generator thing really presents a lot options, all with
related problems. If you enjoy solving problems, it's very interesting.
If you don't, it'll drive you nuts. With me the whole thing started off
when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
standby generator for the house, so I bought it.

Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
fastening some sort of plate (1/2" thick max) on the bottom of them to
accommodate the trolley wheels. Given that a small, used I-Beam, only
costs about $25-$50 at a salvage yard, the steel solution seemed most
practical.

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

Joseph Meehan wrote:
> jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> Let's see. Power outage, often caused by storms. Storms are often
> associated with lots of rain. Rain fills holes in the ground, and you want
> to put an emergency generator into the ground to use during storms.
> Mmmmm....
>
> --
> Joseph Meehan
>
> Dia duit

The hole will have a little roof over it, about 6 feet above the hole,
and the bottom of the hole will be filled with about 6 inches of
gravel. There aren't any really good, economical solutions to the
generator noise problem. Everything is a compromise.

Glenn

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

When everybody else is dark it will sound like music. Speaking
from experience.

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com

>
> This stand-by generator thing really presents a lot
> options, all with related problems. If you enjoy solving
> problems, it's very interesting. If you don't, it'll
> drive you nuts. With me the whole thing started off when
> I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at
> a pawn stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would
> be nice to have a standby generator for the house, so I
> bought it.
>
> Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it
> is. You can probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away
> or more. It sounds at least twice as loud as my Honda
> lawnmower. After a lot of research on sound control, I
> came up with a hole in the ground as the most practical.
> I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would
> require fastening some sort of plate (1/2" thick max) on
> the bottom of them to accommodate the trolley wheels.
> Given that a small, used I-Beam, only costs about $25-$50
> at a salvage yard, the steel solution seemed most
> practical.

Private

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
snip
> when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
> stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
> standby generator for the house, so I bought it.
>
> Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
> probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
> least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
> sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
> practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
snip

I bet if you route the exhaust through an old auto muffler (and the longer
pipe you will need to get it out of any enclosure) that you will notice a
big reduction in the sound level. Do not bother to disconnect the original
small muffler. Make sure you use some kind of a rain hat.

Dave H.

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

"Michael Daly" wrote...
> bitternut wrote:
>
> Any boat owner with an inboard knows that you vent the engine compartment
> well before starting the engine. Vent means a powered blower, not just
> opening a little hatch.
>
> Your advise is very good. That pit is a fire risk without proper
> precautions taken.
>
> Mike

Alternatively, you could bail it out - though what your neighbours will
think of you repeatedly hauling up an empty bucket on a rope and pouring
nothing out away from the hole is open to question ;o)

Dave H.
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

Private wrote:
> <jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> snip
> snip
>
> I bet if you route the exhaust through an old auto muffler (and the longer
> pipe you will need to get it out of any enclosure) that you will notice a
> big reduction in the sound level. Do not bother to disconnect the original
> small muffler. Make sure you use some kind of a rain hat.

I did quite a bit of research on the automobile muffler idea. The
consensus seems to be that automobile mufflers don't reduce the noise
much.

Chas Hurst

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152232188.834683.299530@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Private wrote:
>
> I did quite a bit of research on the automobile muffler idea. The
> consensus seems to be that automobile mufflers don't reduce the noise
> much.

I've got an 8 hp woodsplitter with an automotive muffler and a VW beetle
chrome tip welded into the outlet. It makes virtually no exhaust noise.

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

YouGoFirst wrote:
> <jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Not to spoil everybody's fun, but I just have to ask why do you want to have
> a hoist system? The only reason that I would go with anything like that
> would be if I had no friends, and lived 600 miles from anybody. With 3 more
> people and some rope you could easily lower the generator into the pit.
> Unless you have some reason to have a hoist permanently mounted above the
> pit that you haven't explained.

I'm retired and most of my relatives have moved out of state or died
off. I do have 3 close- by, likely suspects that would help me.
However, one of them has a very bad back and is currently putting off
surgery. The other one has a bad back, but works as a roofer foreman
and ignores it so I could use him, but he travels out of town a lot on
his job. The other one is usually close by, but 200 pounds is a lot for
2 people to lift in and out of a hole and my back isn't all that great.
I don't want to leave the generator permanently in the hole, by the
way.

The hole requires a roof anyway. So, it didn't seem like that big of a
deal to add the hoist. Another nice thing about a hoist is that I can
experiment with depth vs sound attenuation quite easily. It's a
judgement call. Once you get sucked into trying to reduce the sound on
these very loud generators, you make a lot of judgement calls.

>
> But I do agree with a previous poster, why would you put a generator into a
> pit?

Noise reduction. The whole problem is noise reduction and holes are
relatively cheap compared to other options and I have a relatively
large yard, too large really. These things are unbelievably loud--I
would guess twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower.

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

Glenn wrote:
> When everybody else is dark it will sound like music. Speaking
> from experience.

Yah, I wondered about that. Besides, I might not be the only one in the
neighborhood using a generator if the power was out very long. But then
I'm retired and have time on my hands . . .

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

Chas Hurst wrote:
> <jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1152232188.834683.299530@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> I've got an 8 hp woodsplitter with an automotive muffler and a VW beetle
> chrome tip welded into the outlet. It makes virtually no exhaust noise.

I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the engine and the RPM.
Honda makes very quiet generators, for instance, but they cost about
$3000, I think. I only paid $390 at a pawnshop for mine. I actually
loaded the generator up one day and took it to 2 muffler shops. Both of
them told me they had done this before and it didn't help much.

Here's a quote from a generator thread:

"Now. Since I've already done what you're thinking about doing, some
comments. A lot of noise comes from the exhaust but nearly all of it.
My Generac with the super-quiet muffler is still noisy, far too noisy
to use in a CG.

Much of the noise comes from the intake roar. This is much more
problematic to silence, since there has to be an air cleaner in the
path and since the intake right up to the carb on the Generac is
plastic. I've experimented with a commercial air compressor
muffler/air cleaner with some results. This Speedaire unit, available
from Graingers, uses tuned tubes to cancel the steady drone of the air
compressor. The frequency of the generator is much higher, as it runs
much faster, so some trimming of the tuning tubes is necessary. I
haven't installed it on this generator because it is too small.
Probably OK for a 4 or 5 kw generator.

Other major sources of noise include the valve train, the cylinder fins
and the crankcase walls. I've applied liquid rubber such as used in
bed liners to the crankcase which helped some. Keeping the valve train
adjusted tight reduces the noise at the risk of a burnt valve. No
solution yet for the cylinder and head fins, which can't be coated."

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-06, 8:25 pm

trader4@optonline.net wrote:
> YouGoFirst wrote:
>
>
> That's pretty much what I was thinking too. The genset only weighs 200
> lbs. With 2 or 3 guys and one of those cable winchs you could lower it
> in without steel I beams and a trolley hoist. Also curious as to why
> the "hole in the ground" has a 10 foot span. That's one hell of a hole
> in the ground. Maybe he's building a bomb shelter.

The hole is only 4 1/2 feet long (3 1/2 feet wide). So the trolley
hoist will span an additional space of 5 1/2 feet over flat ground.
The beam for the hoist is connected to a used painting scaffold that I
got for a good price. If I want to leave the hole uncovered then the
trolley would come in handy to move the generator over the hole and
then drop it in. Also, if I wind up needing to put some sandbags around
the hole to further reduce noise, then I can use the trolley hoist to
lift the generator over the sandbags.

I don't intend to leave the generator permanently in the hole, by the
way. I would just put it in there in the event of an extended outage. I
really don't normally have many people around that I could call on to
help me lift the generator.

Jim Y

2006-07-06, 9:25 pm

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152233484.097491.132810@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> YouGoFirst wrote:
>
> I'm retired and most of my relatives have moved out of state or died
> off. I do have 3 close- by, likely suspects that would help me.
> However, one of them has a very bad back and is currently putting off
> surgery. The other one has a bad back, but works as a roofer foreman
> and ignores it so I could use him, but he travels out of town a lot on
> his job. The other one is usually close by, but 200 pounds is a lot for
> 2 people to lift in and out of a hole and my back isn't all that great.
> I don't want to leave the generator permanently in the hole, by the
> way.
>
> The hole requires a roof anyway. So, it didn't seem like that big of a
> deal to add the hoist. Another nice thing about a hoist is that I can
> experiment with depth vs sound attenuation quite easily. It's a
> judgement call. Once you get sucked into trying to reduce the sound on
> these very loud generators, you make a lot of judgement calls.
>
>
> Noise reduction. The whole problem is noise reduction and holes are
> relatively cheap compared to other options and I have a relatively
> large yard, too large really. These things are unbelievably loud--I
> would guess twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower.
>
Have you considered a small block wall around the generator to direct the sound upwards. (Look at
the various highway sound deflecting walls.) You can make a roof that is light weight (aluminum
sheet metal) and designed to slide or hinged open like a clam shell. With a small "shed" you would
not necessarily have to move the generator, but leave it in the "shed" and ready to run in an
emergency. The walls would only have to be slightly higher than the height of the generator meaning
a door may not be required - open the roof and step over the wall. The roof could have a padlock to
keep unwanted guests out of the "shed".

Jim Y

Chas Hurst

2006-07-06, 9:25 pm

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152234216.801967.218570@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Chas Hurst wrote:
>
> I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the engine and the RPM.
> Honda makes very quiet generators, for instance, but they cost about
> $3000, I think. I only paid $390 at a pawnshop for mine. I actually
> loaded the generator up one day and took it to 2 muffler shops. Both of
> them told me they had done this before and it didn't help much.
>
> Here's a quote from a generator thread:
>
> "Now. Since I've already done what you're thinking about doing, some
> comments. A lot of noise comes from the exhaust but nearly all of it.
> My Generac with the super-quiet muffler is still noisy, far too noisy
> to use in a CG.
>
> Much of the noise comes from the intake roar. This is much more
> problematic to silence, since there has to be an air cleaner in the
> path and since the intake right up to the carb on the Generac is
> plastic. I've experimented with a commercial air compressor
> muffler/air cleaner with some results. This Speedaire unit, available
> from Graingers, uses tuned tubes to cancel the steady drone of the air
> compressor. The frequency of the generator is much higher, as it runs
> much faster, so some trimming of the tuning tubes is necessary. I
> haven't installed it on this generator because it is too small.
> Probably OK for a 4 or 5 kw generator.
>
> Other major sources of noise include the valve train, the cylinder fins
> and the crankcase walls. I've applied liquid rubber such as used in
> bed liners to the crankcase which helped some. Keeping the valve train
> adjusted tight reduces the noise at the risk of a burnt valve. No
> solution yet for the cylinder and head fins, which can't be coated."

Those are all sources of noise. If you want a truely quiet engine, get a
Mazda rotary.
The engine in my wood splitter is an old Wisconsin cast iron, flat head
dinosaur.
I have a generator with Honda OHV engine and it is much noisier than my wood
splitter, the loudest noise is the exhaust.
As far as intake noise, the air cleaner XXX'y from a car will quiet an air
compressor or a small engine.

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-07, 3:25 am

Jim Y wrote:
> <jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1152233484.097491.132810@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Have you considered a small block wall around the generator to direct the sound upwards. (Look at
> the various highway sound deflecting walls.) You can make a roof that is light weight (aluminum
> sheet metal) and designed to slide or hinged open like a clam shell. With a small "shed" you would
> not necessarily have to move the generator, but leave it in the "shed" and ready to run in an
> emergency. The walls would only have to be slightly higher than the height of the generator meaning
> a door may not be required - open the roof and step over the wall. The roof could have a padlock to
> keep unwanted guests out of the "shed".
>
> Jim Y

That was actually my first idea. In fact, I called a guy that builds
cinder block fences and had him give me a bid on a 7-foot high
enclosure with 1-foot blocks. I decided to go relatively high because
my subdivision is on a hill and the top of even a 7-foot wall would
actually be quite low compared to my next-door neighbors. In addition,
my neighbors have bi-level house like I do, which makes things even
worse. So, I wasn't completely confident with a cinder block wall and,
of course, I would need a door.

Filled cinder block, as I recall, reflects about 66% of the sound wave.
So, I wondered if the sound would be over the top of the wall with a
couple of bounces. In addition, cinder block's attentuation
characteristics vary with frequency. The STC at 31 Hz, for instance, is
only about 32, but it's 58 at 8Khz. The cost to build the shed (without
the roof) would have been somewhere between $2800 and $3500, depending
on how I did it.

My second idea was to forget the cinder block and build low walls, as
you suggested, but with sand bags. My intuition is that sand bags would
absorb the sound rather than reflect it like cinder block. One of the
problems I ran into with sand bags, though, is I couldn't find any
acoustic numbers for them--no STC, and no coefficients of absorption
or reflection, etc. Another problem is that they deteriorate quite
rapidly with UV rays, so a roof would be needed to protect them.

Actually, with almost every scenario I came up with, I found that I
needed a roof of some sort. So, once I arrived at that conclusion,
adding a hoist and putting the generator in a hole didn't seem like
that big of a step. Also, I figured that my approach had saved quite a
bit of money, so the cost of the trolley hoist seemed relatively small.
Just as an example, I got the generator at a pawn shop for $390, while
an equivalent Honda that is fairly quiet probably costs over $3000 and
they probably still make quite a bit of noise.

This whole problem with noise attentuation is a real mind bender. First
you look at one option, then another and another and another. Then you
start back tracking and looking at all the options again. My advice is
don't buy a generator unless you really need it. If you do happen to
buy one on an impulse like I did and you want to kill the noise, you
will be facing a lot of difficult choices.

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-07, 3:25 am

Chas Hurst wrote:
> <jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1152234216.801967.218570@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Those are all sources of noise. If you want a truely quiet engine, get a
> Mazda rotary.
> The engine in my wood splitter is an old Wisconsin cast iron, flat head
> dinosaur.
> I have a generator with Honda OHV engine and it is much noisier than my wood
> splitter, the loudest noise is the exhaust.
> As far as intake noise, the air cleaner XXX'y from a car will quiet an air
> compressor or a small engine.

I've heard that the small, Honda generators (~2000 W) that people buy
to take camping are very quiet, but they are expensive. I'm not sure
how noisy the larger Honda generators are though (4000W - 8000W), I've
assumed they are relatively quiet, but haven't heard anything about
them.

RicodJour

2006-07-07, 3:25 am

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> Actually, with almost every scenario I came up with, I found that I
> needed a roof of some sort. So, once I arrived at that conclusion,
> adding a hoist and putting the generator in a hole didn't seem like
> that big of a step. Also, I figured that my approach had saved quite a
> bit of money, so the cost of the trolley hoist seemed relatively small.
> Just as an example, I got the generator at a pawn shop for $390, while
> an equivalent Honda that is fairly quiet probably costs over $3000 and
> they probably still make quite a bit of noise.
>
> This whole problem with noise attentuation is a real mind bender. First
> you look at one option, then another and another and another. Then you
> start back tracking and looking at all the options again. My advice is
> don't buy a generator unless you really need it. If you do happen to
> buy one on an impulse like I did and you want to kill the noise, you
> will be facing a lot of difficult choices.

You are over-analyzing this to an extreme degree. You know the
sandbags would not reflect sound nearly as much as a block wall, but
you eliminate that option because you can't find STC number? With that
logic you wouldn't have bought the generator in the first place. If
there aren't many power outages in your area, why go to all of this
trouble and expense. You've admitted that you bought something that is
not quite what you expected. Turn around and sell it - if it's in good
condition you might even make a profit.

If you're set on your course the (w)hole idea is asking for trouble on
many levels. Either have some fill delivered or berm up earth around
the generator location, have a drainage/ventilation pipe at the bottom
running to daylight, build a roof over the generator and line the
underside with sound absorbing material. It'll be used so rarely that
it won't cause a neighbor problem.

R

Edwin Pawlowski

2006-07-07, 9:25 am

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> worse. So, I wasn't completely confident with a cinder block wall and,
> of course, I would need a door.
>
> Filled cinder block, as I recall, reflects about 66% of the sound wave.
> So, I wondered if the sound would be over the top of the wall with a
> couple of bounces. In addition, cinder block's attentuation
> characteristics vary with frequency. The STC at 31 Hz, for instance, is
> only about 32, but it's 58 at 8Khz. The cost to build the shed (without
> the roof) would have been somewhere between $2800 and $3500, depending
> on how I did it.

Use an ICF like www.polysteel.com and it will absorb a lot of sound.
While you don't need the insulating value, the project is then DIY and you
save money.

>
If you go with block, line the inside with sound absorbing foam.

Brian Whatcott

2006-07-07, 9:25 am

On 5 Jul 2006 20:20:53 -0700, jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
>ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
>trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
>for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
>about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
>would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
>I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.
>
>There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
>lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
>have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
>to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.
>
>I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
>me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
>of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
>have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?
>
>Thanks in advance.

I was amused by the huge thread that you elicited - and you didn't
even get too badly bruised - only thing: nobody actually came out and
answered your question. Here it is. Using the section descriptions
used in the US, probably similar to the UK? you cannot use a c section
like
C3 X 4.1 (but that doesn't have the flange you need anyway)
It doesn't meet code in bending. Just in case, I'll mention the label
describes the depth times the weight per foot run.
You cannot use WT 2 X 6.5 It doesn't meet code also in bending.

You CAN use any I section more than 4 inches deep and 13 lbs/ft
like
W4 X 13 (safety factor of X12 for code requirement)
or a lighter section like
S3 X 5.7 (safety factor of X4 on code requirement) or bigger.

So find an I beam (not the right name but you know what I mean)
of 3 or 4 inches depth and weighing 6 lbs/ft on up and you are safe,
if your supports are at least pinned and 10 ft apart or less.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

YouGoFirst

2006-07-07, 9:25 am

> This whole problem with noise attentuation is a real mind bender. First
> you look at one option, then another and another and another. Then you
> start back tracking and looking at all the options again. My advice is
> don't buy a generator unless you really need it. If you do happen to
> buy one on an impulse like I did and you want to kill the noise, you
> will be facing a lot of difficult choices.
>

It sounds like you should consider usage, how often are you planning on
firing the thing up? If you only are planning on running it once in a while
for maintenance, and when the power is out, I wouldn't worry about putting
it in a pit. Save your money and buy a power transfer switch and have that
installed into your house.

While creating a sound-proof enclosure would be nice, the majority of the
noise that you will be producing comes from the exhaust, so you may want to
look into directing the exhaust straight up.

Gordon

2006-07-07, 9:25 am

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
> ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
> trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
> for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
> about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
> would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
> I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.
> There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
> lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
> have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
> to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.
> I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
> me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
> of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
> have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?

Having followed this thread so far, it strikes me that the approach should
be to get some experience actually using the generator before getting too
involved with holes for noise mitigation. I have a 6000W gasoline generator
that I use in my attached garage with the main door open. There are several
benefits to using a garage:
1. The generator stays dry.
2. The only neighbor who gets significant noise is the one directly across
the street from the open garage door (and only if his front windows are
open).
3. The generator is conveniently located for the twice-daily fill-ups needed
of the six-gallon gasoline tank. During rain or snow, I would not want the
generator outside in a hole. The longest power outage we ever had was
associated with a two-foot snowstorm.
4. The generator is close to the clothes dryer, so that a large cable can be
run from the 240V generator outlet to the 240V dryer outlet in order to
power the entire house. Most houses in the U.S. (I assume from your email
that you are in the U.K.) have 120/240V three-wire service with half the
120V service in the house on each side. (Of course, the house has to be
disconnected from the power company at the service main.)
5. The generator is conveniently located so that leftover gasoline can be
removed after each use, since it may be many months before the next use.
The above approach works fine for occasional outages. Mitigating noise is
nice, but it is not the only issue or even the main issue. (I say this as a
mechanical engineer specializing in acoustics.)

cliff84373@yahoo.co.uk

2006-07-07, 1:25 pm

RicodJour wrote:
> jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> You are over-analyzing this to an extreme degree. You know the
> sandbags would not reflect sound nearly as much as a block wall, but
> you eliminate that option because you can't find STC number? With that
> logic you wouldn't have bought the generator in the first place. If
> there aren't many power outages in your area, why go to all of this
> trouble and expense. You've admitted that you bought something that is
> not quite what you expected. Turn around and sell it - if it's in good
> condition you might even make a profit.
>
> If you're set on your course the (w)hole idea is asking for trouble on
> many levels. Either have some fill delivered or berm up earth around
> the generator location, have a drainage/ventilation pipe at the bottom
> running to daylight, build a roof over the generator and line the
> underside with sound absorbing material. It'll be used so rarely that
> it won't cause a neighbor problem.
>
> R

I like the berm idea that you mentioned, especially if it deflects the
water from the roof away from the hole. The actual noise sources from
the generator are only about 14 inches high. It could be that my
32-inch hole might wind up being only 1-foot deep with a 1-foot berm
around it. The bottom on the hole will be filled with at least 6-inches
of gravel, BTW. I plan on doing a lot of experimenting since I'm
retired and have the time and have already done most of the work.

The roof incidentally will set on top of a heavy-duty, used, walk-thru
scaffold that I got a good deal on. The whole thing is mostly hidden
from view from my house by a tree and it's hidden from the neighbors by
a 6-foot fence and my storage/hobby shed. I'm quite optimistic at this
point, but we'll have to see how it turns out. I've already painted the
scaffold the same color as my shed, incidentally, courtesy of 2 spray
cans of rustoleum--just for aesthetic purposes.

longshot

2006-07-07, 1:25 pm

I've already painted the
> scaffold the same color as my shed, incidentally, courtesy of 2 spray
> cans of rustoleum--just for aesthetic purposes.
>

it DOES sound aesthetically pleasing :-), you don't live in Arkansas do ya?

Chris Lewis

2006-07-07, 1:25 pm

According to Gordon <gordo432xRemove@comcast.net>:
> Having followed this thread so far, it strikes me that the approach should
> be to get some experience actually using the generator before getting too
> involved with holes for noise mitigation. I have a 6000W gasoline generator
> that I use in my attached garage with the main door open. There are several
> benefits to using a garage:

The approach works, and has a number of conveniences. However, you
do have to be VERY careful about CO production, even in an open garage
(check out/seal the penetrations between the garage and house, leave
as many doors open as possible).

During the great ice storm of 1998 up here there were a number of near
misses with CO poisoning even in open garages.

Secondly, using a suicide cord between a generator and dryer outlet
is a severe code no-no. While in certain emergencies (the power's
out, you have no time to buy sophisticated parts and wait for electricians,
and you only have limited options on installing a new genset)
it's the only way to go, but, it can be VERY dangerous on a number
of grounds. And highly unwise on a "planned installation" from
a legal perspective.

Here, you can get hit with a $6000 fine.

If you're planning out a "permanentish" installation, using a transfer
switch is the right way to go.

Short of that, extension cords to the equipment you need to power
is best.

Thirdly, security is important. People do strange things. Like
stealing generators from emergency services installations.
Chain it down!
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

John Hines

2006-07-07, 5:25 pm

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>
>Glenn wrote:
>
>Yah, I wondered about that. Besides, I might not be the only one in the
>neighborhood using a generator if the power was out very long. But then
>I'm retired and have time on my hands . . .

If your the only one with a working beer cooler, you will be the hit of
the neighborhood.

--
Silly sig to prevent isp ad

mikejames

2006-07-07, 5:25 pm

cliff84373@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>
>
>
> I like the berm idea that you mentioned, especially if it deflects the
> water from the roof away from the hole. The actual noise sources from
> the generator are only about 14 inches high. It could be that my
> 32-inch hole might wind up being only 1-foot deep with a 1-foot berm
> around it. The bottom on the hole will be filled with at least 6-inches
> of gravel, BTW. I plan on doing a lot of experimenting since I'm
> retired and have the time and have already done most of the work.
>
> The roof incidentally will set on top of a heavy-duty, used, walk-thru
> scaffold that I got a good deal on. The whole thing is mostly hidden
> from view from my house by a tree and it's hidden from the neighbors by
> a 6-foot fence and my storage/hobby shed. I'm quite optimistic at this
> point, but we'll have to see how it turns out. I've already painted the
> scaffold the same color as my shed, incidentally, courtesy of 2 spray
> cans of rustoleum--just for aesthetic purposes.
>
Since you are retired and like to mess around, do the berm thing, and
landscape it with a waterfall and plants and a pond

The hole in the ground is a nuissance for your back, and it will get
flooded in severe rainstorms which could fowl up your plans when the
power goes out. And in winter a hole is not a good idea (if you are in a
northern area).

Greg Locock

2006-07-07, 8:25 pm

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote in
news:1152234216.801967.218570@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

f them told me they had done this before and it didn't help much.
>
> Here's a quote from a generator thread:
>
> "Now. Since I've already done what you're thinking about doing, some
> comments. A lot of noise comes from the exhaust but nearly all of it.
> My Generac with the super-quiet muffler is still noisy, far too noisy
> to use in a CG.
>
> Much of the noise comes from the intake roar. This is much more
> problematic to silence, since there has to be an air cleaner in the
> path and since the intake right up to the carb on the Generac is
> plastic. I've experimented with a commercial air compressor
> muffler/air cleaner with some results. This Speedaire unit, available
> from Graingers, uses tuned tubes to cancel the steady drone of the air
> compressor. The frequency of the generator is much higher, as it runs
> much faster, so some trimming of the tuning tubes is necessary. I
> haven't installed it on this generator because it is too small.
> Probably OK for a 4 or 5 kw generator.
>
> Other major sources of noise include the valve train, the cylinder
> fins and the crankcase walls. I've applied liquid rubber such as used
> in bed liners to the crankcase which helped some. Keeping the valve
> train adjusted tight reduces the noise at the risk of a burnt valve.
> No solution yet for the cylinder and head fins, which can't be
> coated."
>

True, to get a quiet engine you need to deal with the loudest noise
source (in turn). For your installation, try using an autmotive muffler
on the intake.

One minute's study of the relative complexity of a car's intake and
exhaust systems will demonstrate that intake systems are much easier to
quieten than exhaust systems.

The other noise source that has not been mentioned is noise radiated
from the block itself. There is no easy solution to that, building a
heavy box around the engine, or burying it, are certainly reasonable
approaches.

Cheers

Greg Locock

JerryD$upstateNY$

2006-07-09, 3:25 am

> You are over-analyzing this to an extreme degree.<<

He sure is.
You are throwing a lot of good money at a mistake.
Get rid of that loud generator.
By the time he is done, he will have spent more money than if he had sold
the generator and bought a Honda.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)

trader4@optonline.net

2006-07-09, 9:25 am

Chris Lewis wrote:
> According to Gordon <gordo432xRemove@comcast.net>:
>
> The approach works, and has a number of conveniences. However, you
> do have to be VERY careful about CO production, even in an open garage
> (check out/seal the penetrations between the garage and house, leave
> as many doors open as possible).
>
> During the great ice storm of 1998 up here there were a number of near
> misses with CO poisoning even in open garages.
>

That's for sure. A 14 year old died here in NJ couple of weeks ago.
The electric company had shut off power to the home for non-payment.
They had a generator running in the basement, which is an obviously
stupid thing to do. The 14 yr old was sleeping in a bedroom, the
father was home sleeping in his bedroom with the AC on. Other family
members came home around noon and found the 14 year old dead. The
father apparently survived because the window AC unit pulled in enough
fresh air, though he wound up with other family members in the
hospital.

And in typical NJ fashion, the newspaper is full of editorials and
letters about how we need a better system to prevent this. Most are
suggesting that the electric company should be required to notify the
municipality before turning off anyone's power. Like just notifying
is all that's needed. Of course the real problem is if the
municipality is notifed then what? Should they have a team driving
around to the homes then to find out what's going on and who;s about to
do something stupid? And at what stage do you do this? Two weeks
before shutoff when the power company sends out the final bill? Or the
day they actually go there to either collect or turn it off? I'd bet
100 get notice, while only 1 actually get's shut off, because they pay
up at the last minute. Then the idiots here in NJ complain about high
taxes, but they want a new program to fix every act of stupidity where
someone dies or gets injured.

Plus, it wasn't even that hot here, so why did the father who can't pay
his electric bill need to have an AC running? Not to mention that it's
got to be pretty cost ineffective to run a generator, compared to just
paying up enough on your bill so they don't cut it off.

Back to the garage issue, it is easier than you think to get affected
by CO. I had the generator running on my boat one day, while
anchored. I was sitting on the open deck area for maybe an hour or so
and noticed I had a little headache and didn't feel well. Few minutes
later the CO detector in the cabin went off. When I got up, I also
noticed I was a little light headed. Apparently, while the generator
was exhausting properly at the rear of the boat, the wind was blowing
enough of it back and onto the boat. Finally enough got into the cabin
to set off the alarm.

> Secondly, using a suicide cord between a generator and dryer outlet
> is a severe code no-no. While in certain emergencies (the power's
> out, you have no time to buy sophisticated parts and wait for electricians,
> and you only have limited options on installing a new genset)
> it's the only way to go, but, it can be VERY dangerous on a number
> of grounds. And highly unwise on a "planned installation" from
> a legal perspective.
>
> Here, you can get hit with a $6000 fine.
>
> If you're planning out a "permanentish" installation, using a transfer
> switch is the right way to go.
>
> Short of that, extension cords to the equipment you need to power
> is best.
>
> Thirdly, security is important. People do strange things. Like
> stealing generators from emergency services installations.
> Chain it down!
> --
> Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
> It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

no-email-address-today@----------.com

2006-07-09, 9:25 am

I think I am responding to a troll, but I also agree, putting it in a
pit is absolutely stupid. As for putting it in the hole, get 3 or 4
buddies, buy a case of beer and lower it in the hole using muscles.
200 lbs is nothing.... (do it BEFORE drinking the beer though).
Of course, the pit is still a stupid idea !!!!

On 6 Jul 2006 08:18:58 -0700, "dpb" <dpbozarth@swko.net> wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
>jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>A 10-ft span could easily be bridged w/ a 2x8 and safely hold 500 lbs
>(w/ only something over 1/8" deflection if my mental gymnastics weren't
>too far off). For something like that you certainly don't need a metal
>beam unless you just want it for showin' off. In practice, for
>something like this I would probably go with a double 2x6 rather than a
>single 2x8 or 2x10 for a little more lateral rigidity, but certainly
>don't need more for supporting the load safely.
>
>I'm sorta' w/ J Meehan on the application, though...unless you're
>building an enclosed weathertight basement-like structure w/ air supply
>and exhaust provisions seems like the wrong place to put an emergency
>generator...
>
>

no-email-address-today@----------.com

2006-07-09, 9:25 am

On 6 Jul 2006 17:51:24 -0700, jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>
>YouGoFirst wrote:
>
>I'm retired and most of my relatives have moved out of state or died
>off. I do have 3 close- by, likely suspects that would help me.
>However, one of them has a very bad back and is currently putting off
>surgery. The other one has a bad back, but works as a roofer foreman
>and ignores it so I could use him, but he travels out of town a lot on
>his job. The other one is usually close by, but 200 pounds is a lot for
>2 people to lift in and out of a hole and my back isn't all that great.
>I don't want to leave the generator permanently in the hole, by the
>way.
>
>The hole requires a roof anyway. So, it didn't seem like that big of a
>deal to add the hoist. Another nice thing about a hoist is that I can
>experiment with depth vs sound attenuation quite easily. It's a
>judgement call. Once you get sucked into trying to reduce the sound on
>these very loud generators, you make a lot of judgement calls.
>
>
>Noise reduction. The whole problem is noise reduction and holes are
>relatively cheap compared to other options and I have a relatively
>large yard, too large really. These things are unbelievably loud--I
>would guess twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower.

Didcha ever hear of a thing called a muffler? You dont need to leave
that tiny stock muffler on it, get a decent one. Then build an
insulated shed. The insulation will muffle the sound too. The
exhaust still has to come out the shed, so you will need to pipe it
out of a shed, or the ground. Leaving the exhaust pour inside a shed
or a pit might kill someone, and will surely kill the engine since it
needs oxygen to run. Not to be cruel, but your whole idea is
rediculous. Build a small shed for it, pipe the exhaust outdoors and
get a good muffler. I personally know a guy that welded a regular car
muffler to some pipe and hooked it to his camping generator because
people complained when he was camping. Now, it's so quiet you dont
even know it's there. A little welding will solve the noise and
probably cost much less. For a shed, a few 2x4's and some barn siding
(steel) is all you need.

You will also need to supply fresh air into the shed for the intake
air. Either vent the whole shed, or pipe air into the air cleaner
compartment.

bill allemann

2006-07-10, 3:25 am

so at that price, it is a gasoline powered generator.
You do not want to put it in a hole.

Bill
<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152226401.475838.3010@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> dpb wrote:
>
> This stand-by generator thing really presents a lot options, all with
> related problems. If you enjoy solving problems, it's very interesting.
> If you don't, it'll drive you nuts. With me the whole thing started off
> when I stumbled across a 5500W Generac generator, like new, at a pawn
> stop for $389.99. It occurred to me that it would be nice to have a
> standby generator for the house, so I bought it.
>
> Then when I got it home I realized how extremely noisy it is. You can
> probably hear this thing about 1/4 mile away or more. It sounds at
> least twice as loud as my Honda lawnmower. After a lot of research on
> sound control, I came up with a hole in the ground as the most
> practical. I considered double 2x6s, by the way, but this would require
> fastening some sort of plate (1/2" thick max) on the bottom of them to
> accommodate the trolley wheels. Given that a small, used I-Beam, only
> costs about $25-$50 at a salvage yard, the steel solution seemed most
> practical.
>

bill allemann

2006-07-10, 3:25 am

you are way overthinking the job there. 200 pounds?
Put a piece of 2 X 10 down into the hole as a ramp, and just slide the thing
down.
I've taken items twice that heavy off the back of my truck by myself with
old 2X10 ramps.

Bill

<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
> ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
> trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
> for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
> about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
> would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
> I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.
>
> There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
> lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
> have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
> to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.
>
> I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
> me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
> of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
> have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

2006-07-12, 3:25 am

I wonder what it would cost to get a precast concrete vault or even a
pipe section delivered to your property. That would be dense enough to
deaden most of the sound radiated from the engine block.

The exhaust could be muffled by running it into a bucket of water (might
need a vacuum break to prevent it from sucking water if you crank it
backwards).

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
On a clear desk, you can sleep forever.

peterlonz

2006-07-25, 9:25 am

Your intuition is correct & BTW a safety margin of from 3 to 5 is more
usual.
Pete
<jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1152156053.927529.55580@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>I have a portable gas generator that I want to drop into a hole in the
> ground for use during power outages. I have already bought a 1-ton
> trolley and a 1-ton hoist and I need to find an I-beam (or a T-Beam?)
> for a 10-ft span to mount the trolley hoist on. The generator weighs
> about 200 pounds and the hoist and trolley weigh maybe 50 pounds. It
> would be nice to have a 2:1 safety margin. Or, in otherwords find an
> I-beam that could handle a load of 500 pounds.
>
> There's a scrap dealer about 50 miles from my house who says he has
> lots of I-Beams to choose from. The question is, what do I look for? I
> have no mechanical restrictions for the I-beam other than I would like
> to have it light enough that 2 guys could lift it.
>
> I know nothing at all about this sort of thing, but my intuition tells
> me that almost any I-Beam that I'm likely to find would handle a load
> of 250-500 pounds over a span of 10 feet. Is this true? Does anyone
> have any advice to help me select an I-beam/T-beam?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>

Greg Locock

2006-07-25, 9:25 am

"peterlonz" <peterlo@mail.com> wrote in news:7Ilxg.395$rP1.337@news-
server.bigpond.net.au:

> Your intuition is correct & BTW a safety margin of from 3 to 5 is more
> usual.

More specifically, professionally designed lifting gear where people will
be working underneath it is designed to a safety factor of at least 4, and
is annually tested to a safety factor of 2, in Australia.

I would strongly suggest that a safety factor of 4 is maintained as a
minimum, but since the OP is in the UK, and an adult, he/she is, of course,
free to decide what to do.

And, as a quid pro quo, he/she will thereby take the responsibility for
that decision.

Myself, I'd use a railway sleeper (in Australia these are 10x5-12x6 lumps
of redgum) on edge, but I wouldn't stand underneath it either. I don't
stand underneath lifting gear, it's a professional courtesy.

Cheers

Greg Locock

LinkBot