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Home > Archive > Building and Construction > December 2007 > Info on Hydronic Heating / Cooling withOUT furnace or AC
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Info on Hydronic Heating / Cooling withOUT furnace or AC
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| quisquil 2007-12-10, 9:25 pm |
| Hallo,
I was wondering if anyone has heard of a building which uses hydronic
heating / cooling in an innovative way:
The coils are installed into all elevated concrete floors as well as
into the basement slab-on-grade (and underground walls). By
circulating the water through the pipes, the building can be
conditioned without using external energy (besides for the heat
exchanger for the heating, because the basement isn't warm enough to
heat the upper floors).
I know of successful buildings like this in Europe, but was hoping
this had been done in the US, and that I could find information on it
here.
Thank you. Christoph
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| PeterD 2007-12-11, 1:25 pm |
| On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:12:19 -0800 (PST), quisquil
<quisquiliaester@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hallo,
>
>I was wondering if anyone has heard of a building which uses hydronic
>heating / cooling in an innovative way:
>
>The coils are installed into all elevated concrete floors as well as
>into the basement slab-on-grade (and underground walls). By
>circulating the water through the pipes, the building can be
>conditioned without using external energy (besides for the heat
>exchanger for the heating, because the basement isn't warm enough to
>heat the upper floors).
>
>I know of successful buildings like this in Europe, but was hoping
>this had been done in the US, and that I could find information on it
>here.
>
>Thank you. Christoph
TINSTAAFL...
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| In article
<dda13b38-c581-4016-8089-977cfcb56a79@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
quisquil <quisquiliaester@gmail.com> wrote:
> By
> circulating the water through the pipes, the building can be
> conditioned without using external energy (besides for the heat
> exchanger for the heating, because the basement isn't warm enough to
> heat the upper floors).
EXCEPT, for the energy for the Pumps, that move the fluid around the
system, which in a building is going to be SIGNIFICANT.........
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"PeterD" <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in message
news:jhctl3570efoapuvojg1kburohkmn3vm3k@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:12:19 -0800 (PST), quisquil
> <quisquiliaester@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> TINSTAAFL...
>
I don't think he's looking for a Free Lunch, just info on the proper
distribution of piping, a noble goal and eminently on-topic.
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"You" <You@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:You-5C4216.10052311122007@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article
> <dda13b38-c581-4016-8089-977cfcb56a79@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> quisquil <quisquiliaester@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> EXCEPT, for the energy for the Pumps, that move the fluid around the
> system, which in a building is going to be SIGNIFICANT.........
Good point; also, he'll probably want some sort of thermal storage tanks
(55gal. drums?)
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| daestrom 2007-12-11, 5:25 pm |
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"quisquil" <quisquiliaester@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dda13b38-c581-4016-8089-977cfcb56a79@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hallo,
>
> I was wondering if anyone has heard of a building which uses hydronic
> heating / cooling in an innovative way:
>
> The coils are installed into all elevated concrete floors as well as
> into the basement slab-on-grade (and underground walls). By
> circulating the water through the pipes, the building can be
> conditioned without using external energy (besides for the heat
> exchanger for the heating, because the basement isn't warm enough to
> heat the upper floors).
>
> I know of successful buildings like this in Europe, but was hoping
> this had been done in the US, and that I could find information on it
> here.
>
Of course the circulating pumps draw a small amount of energy whenever
they're running, but that should be pretty small compared to conventional
furnace / A/C load.
In many commercial buildings it is common to use heat-pumps in each space
that are attached to a building circulating water loop. In the winter time,
a building near work doesn't use any *extra* energy to heat it since some
heat-pumps cool rooms with heat-generating equipment, dumping the heat into
the building water loop, while other heat pumps in other rooms extract heat
from the loop to heat their respective rooms. So this effectively
re-distributes the heat to where it's needed from where it isn't wanted. Of
course heat-pumps, even when operating with a low temperature difference
across them, draw quite a bit more power than just circulating pump.
In my own home I occasionally start the blower on the furnace just to move
warm air from the rooms facing the sun into rooms that aren't so as to even
out the temperatures. I'm not so sure that hydronic controls can be
overriden so easily as my flipping the blower switch to 'man', but perhaps.
I don't think that 'radiators' or hydronic baseboards would work very well
at all for 'cooling'. Their placement is designed around the phenomenon of
the air being heated by the hydronics and creating a circulation. Wouldn't
get that from cold water in the piping.
daestrom
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| PeterD 2007-12-11, 5:25 pm |
| On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:17:05 -0600, "Jim" <Jim@home.con> wrote:
>
>"PeterD" <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in message
>news:jhctl3570efoapuvojg1kburohkmn3vm3k@4ax.com...
> I don't think he's looking for a Free Lunch, just info on the proper
>distribution of piping, a noble goal and eminently on-topic.
>
When I see:
[color=darkred]
I have to wonder what he wants... If he wants to figure out the best
layout and distribution then he had a poor way of phrasing it! <bg>
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| PeterD 2007-12-11, 5:25 pm |
| On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:20:26 -0600, "Jim" <Jim@home.con> wrote:
>
>"You" <You@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
>news:You-5C4216.10052311122007@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Good point; also, he'll probably want some sort of thermal storage tanks
>(55gal. drums?)
>
Where is this heat (or cooling) coming from?
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| Cosmopolite 2007-12-11, 8:25 pm |
| PeterD wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:20:26 -0600, "Jim" <Jim@home.con> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Where is this heat (or cooling) coming from?
>
Geothermal system, with tubes running through aluminum plates in the
ceiling.
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| PeterD 2007-12-12, 1:25 pm |
| On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:02:49 GMT, Cosmopolite <anywhere@anywhen.net>
wrote:
>PeterD wrote:
>
>Geothermal system, with tubes running through aluminum plates in the
>ceiling.
So you have drilled a geothermal well? Tell me more, this gets
interesting now.
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| Cosmopolite 2007-12-12, 8:25 pm |
| PeterD wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:02:49 GMT, Cosmopolite <anywhere@anywhen.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> So you have drilled a geothermal well? Tell me more, this gets
> interesting now.
No, didn't say I did, but that is how you can use hydronics to
air-condition.
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| PeterD 2007-12-12, 8:25 pm |
| On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:55:18 GMT, Cosmopolite <anywhere@anywhen.net>
wrote:
>PeterD wrote:
>No, didn't say I did, but that is how you can use hydronics to
>air-condition.
Air-condition? As in cooling? You can't... At least not very easily,
mostly becuase as air is cooled, moisture in the air condenses out and
that water must be 'removed'. You can't just have it coating the
cement--you'll get mold and other nasty surprises. For cooling, you
need proper heat exchangers which can be drained to the building's
drainage system.
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| Solar Flare 2007-12-12, 9:25 pm |
| This is done in many different climates by running cold well water
through the floor first to preheat it before the hot water heater and
usage as hot water. I intend to do it in my new home next year. If it
doesn;t work out I can swing a single water line on the other side of
the floor loops.
I would imagine you would need some dehumidification in many climates
though. Ever been to Mexican resorts where they cool the air without
removing the humidity? Mold and mustiness is definitely a problem in
those places. They tend to keep to mostly ceramic and masonary product
only. Wet mopping everyday doesn't help either.
"PeterD" <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in message
news:7cu0m3ps8vkg5hkjujhbijqcv5nko1brkd@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:55:18 GMT, Cosmopolite <anywhere@anywhen.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Air-condition? As in cooling? You can't... At least not very easily,
> mostly becuase as air is cooled, moisture in the air condenses out
> and
> that water must be 'removed'. You can't just have it coating the
> cement--you'll get mold and other nasty surprises. For cooling, you
> need proper heat exchangers which can be drained to the building's
> drainage system.
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