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Home > Archive > Building and Construction > March 2007 > Question on floor decking
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Question on floor decking
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| Dennis 2007-03-07, 8:25 pm |
| Question came up earlier today by one of the engineers on floor decking.
What products, OTHER THAN wood based or concrete, can be used for floor
decking over joists?
Is there a plastic foam or composite material that anyone has hear of /
used?
Perhaps something used in Europe or Asia?
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| no
use plywood in residential and
concrete in commercial
why the hell would you want to use foam for floors
or plastic
are you building houses for Movie Studios so they
can do a remake of the towering inferno?
Plywood can be made from new growth trees
so there is no reason to not harvest it and use it
besides it will break down over years and biodegrade in landfills
plastic wont
"Dennis" <webmaster@npcc.net> wrote in message
news:13IHh.926$pi.895@trndny09...
> Question came up earlier today by one of the engineers on floor decking.
> What products, OTHER THAN wood based or concrete, can be used for floor
> decking over joists?
>
> Is there a plastic foam or composite material that anyone has hear of /
> used?
> Perhaps something used in Europe or Asia?
>
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| I know you said no concrete.
We used a cement board good for 100#/SF loading in 3/4" or 1"
thickness. Used it on steel stud joists spanning 17' as I recall.
There was a requirement to buy in full bunk quantities. We used
primarily for the fire rating.
Here is a link if you are interested:
<http://www.architecturalproducts.co...Final_Draft.pdf>
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
dgriff237@7cox.net
"Dennis" <webmaster@npcc.net> wrote in message
news:13IHh.926$pi.895@trndny09...
> Question came up earlier today by one of the engineers on floor
> decking.
> What products, OTHER THAN wood based or concrete, can be used
> for floor decking over joists?
>
> Is there a plastic foam or composite material that anyone has
> hear of / used?
> Perhaps something used in Europe or Asia?
>
| |
| Bob Morrison 2007-03-08, 5:25 pm |
| In a previous post Dennis wrote...
> Question came up earlier today by one of the engineers on floor decking.
> What products, OTHER THAN wood based or concrete, can be used for floor
> decking over joists?
>
If you are using wood joists why use anything other than wood for the
sheathing?
If it's finished surface on top of wood sheathing you are after, then
there might be fiberglass panels, steel sheets or other types of products
available. Still don't know why you would want to though.
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
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| Dennis 2007-03-08, 5:25 pm |
| That is interesting.
I haden't heard of this amterial before.
(And at 150 lbs a panel, it must be a real trick to lay in place.)
Thanks for your comments,
Dennis
"DanG" <dgriff23@7cox.net> wrote in message
news:iGJHh.7712$zJ1.689@newsfe24.lga...
>I know you said no concrete.
>
> We used a cement board good for 100#/SF loading in 3/4" or 1" thickness.
> Used it on steel stud joists spanning 17' as I recall. There was a
> requirement to buy in full bunk quantities. We used primarily for the
> fire rating.
>
> Here is a link if you are interested:
> <http://www.architecturalproducts.co...Final_Draft.pdf>
> ______________________________
> Keep the whole world singing . . . .
> DanG (remove the sevens)
> dgriff237@7cox.net
>
>
>
> "Dennis" <webmaster@npcc.net> wrote in message
> news:13IHh.926$pi.895@trndny09...
>
>
| |
| Dennis 2007-03-08, 5:25 pm |
| Thanks Bob, it was just a hypothetical to discover if any unconventional
products were being used.
There was talk a few years ago about the use of a plastic (or some
alternative material - I can't remember now exactly what it was) composite
material that had structural capabilities for both floor decking and
exterior sheathing. But I haven't heard anything about it for some time now
and thought I would put out a feeler to see if anyone else knew anything.
(Could have been made out of seaweed for all I remember.)
Dennis
"Bob Morrison" <SpamFighter@junk.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.205a2204b31f7696989d72@news.west.earthlink.net...
> In a previous post Dennis wrote...
>
> If you are using wood joists why use anything other than wood for the
> sheathing?
>
> If it's finished surface on top of wood sheathing you are after, then
> there might be fiberglass panels, steel sheets or other types of products
> available. Still don't know why you would want to though.
>
> --
> Bob Morrison, PE, SE
> R L Morrison Engineering Co
> Structural & Civil Engineering
> Poulsbo WA
> bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
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| Dennis 2007-03-08, 5:25 pm |
| Well OSB actually as plywood is too expensive. : )
Anyway it was just a hypothetical question.
The day may come when we may very well see plastics or paper composits or as
floor decking.
(After all, we now have cars that run on air - who knows?)
Thanks for your thoughts,
Dennis
<moo@anonamoo.com> wrote in message news:esnmcb$f73$1@aioe.org...
> no
>
> use plywood in residential and
> concrete in commercial
>
> why the hell would you want to use foam for floors
> or plastic
>
> are you building houses for Movie Studios so they
> can do a remake of the towering inferno?
>
>
> Plywood can be made from new growth trees
> so there is no reason to not harvest it and use it
>
> besides it will break down over years and biodegrade in landfills
> plastic wont
>
>
>
>
> "Dennis" <webmaster@npcc.net> wrote in message
> news:13IHh.926$pi.895@trndny09...
>
>
| |
| Bob Morrison 2007-03-08, 8:25 pm |
| In a previous post Dennis wrote...
> There was talk a few years ago about the use of a plastic (or some
> alternative material - I can't remember now exactly what it was) composite
> material that had structural capabilities for both floor decking and
> exterior sheathing. But I haven't heard anything about it for some time now
> and thought I would put out a feeler to see if anyone else knew anything.
> (Could have been made out of seaweed for all I remember.)
>
There are non-wood wall sheathing products, but none of these can be used
on a floor. Plywood or OSB are still the least expensive products around
for use as horizontal sheathing in residential and light frame commercial
structures.
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
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| Dennis 2007-03-22, 8:25 pm |
| Bob, I just ran across (released this month) a non-wood structural decking
made from straw, and it has a PS-2 rating.
It's going to be made by Above Board Technologies, Inc., out of
Saskatchewan.
http://www.agwest.sk.ca/publication...tin/BBMar07.rtf
According to the press release, it:
* performs at a structural equivalency to OSB,
* promotes a new way of harvesting the wheat straw utilizing the stripper
header on the combine, which will save fuel costs, decrease time required to
harvest grain, and increase the amount of straw left to be sold to the panel
mills;
*provides the wheat farmer with a marketplace to sell straw, which for the
most part, is currently a waste product; and
*is completely termite resistant, unlike OSB.
It's being referred to as Oriented Structural Straw Board (OSSB).
My how the world is changing. Next week, seaweed.......
Dennis
> There are non-wood wall sheathing products, but none of these can be used
> on a floor. Plywood or OSB are still the least expensive products around
> for use as horizontal sheathing in residential and light frame commercial
> structures.
>
> --
> Bob Morrison, PE, SE
> R L Morrison Engineering Co
> Structural & Civil Engineering
> Poulsbo WA
> bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
| |
| Bob Morrison 2007-03-22, 8:25 pm |
| In a previous post Dennis wrote...
> Bob, I just ran across (released this month) a non-wood structural decking
> made from straw, and it has a PS-2 rating.
>
From the document I can see that it does not yet have a PS-2 rating. For
use as a replacement for OSB sheathing it will also need approval for use
as structural sheathing in the US from ICC. Otherwise it does not have
the horizontal shear capacity need for use in shear walls. There are
several products on the market that can be used where wind loads govern
the design, but they cannot be used where seismic governs.
Here in the Pacific NW, we get both wind and seismic!
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
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| Wayne Whitney 2007-03-23, 1:25 pm |
| On 2007-03-23, Bob Morrison <SpamFighter@junk.com> wrote:
> There are several products on the market that can be used where wind
> loads govern the design, but they cannot be used where seismic
> governs.
Can you comment on how a panel product could be adequate for resisting
shear from wind loads but not from seismic loads? Is it an issue of
load duration?
Thanks, Wayne
| |
| Bob Morrison 2007-03-23, 5:25 pm |
| In a previous post Wayne Whitney wrote...
> Can you comment on how a panel product could be adequate for resisting
> shear from wind loads but not from seismic loads? Is it an issue of
> load duration?
>
It's an issue of cyclic loading. The material around the fasteners starts
to crush or become soft and the material no longer has the strength to
resist the design forces. A classic example is GWB (sheetrock). It works
fine for resisting wind loads, but is terrible in an earthquake.
Here's a link to a product I've been keeping an eye on. Last year they
did not have ICC certification to use this product in seismic zone D, but
they have been testing and apparently now have that certification. If I
can find a local dealer, then I may be adding this product to my
specifications.
http://www.temple.com/fiberboard/build_architect.html
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
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| Dennis 2007-03-23, 5:25 pm |
| As I delve deeper into this I'm getting more and more amazed. Turns out that
the ICC developed acceptance criteria for OSSB (OSB straw board) in 2005. I
suppose we'll see plastic power-driven nails in the future. (After all they
have cars that run on air now - smile)
If the product ends up having values similar to OSB, it could have an
interesting future; particularly in the developing world. I can see China
developing an OSB-type product based on bamboo. (At least that would allow
the price of OSB to return to somewhere around normal.)
Personally, I don't a problem of using the board for resisting either wind
or ground acceleration, as long as it's used within its parameters like any
other diaphragm panel. (Considering non-wood panels, gypsum shear walls come
to mind for example.)
Yea, the Pacific NW is geologically interesting. I visited Mt. St.Helens a
few years ago; incredible forces of nature. Love visiting either Oregon
(esp. Portland) or Washington (my son works in Seattle, but I don't get the
opportunity to get out there as often as I like.) I could never live there,
love the sun too much. My wife & I are going to retire in central Arizona in
a few years. Love the desert even more.
Anyway, from a personal viewpoint, my clients range from seismic areas like
Missouri & South Carolina to wind areas like Florida & OSB is still the
flavor-of-choice of course, but who knows. There was a time when no one what
ever consider using anything but plywood. In five years we very well see
horizontal diaphragms and shear walls make from straw!
When I started this on a rant of "why not seaweed panels" and never really
thought that I'd find anything. Surprisingly, I found a whole ration of new
ideas for products that we may very well see someday. (Ok, being no spring
chicken, perhaps not me).
I just found a website on alternatives for concrete foundations. Outside of
the usual wood pier, wood panel wall and the like, there's a considerable
diversity of methods and products being touted. Maybe seaweed panels are
not as ridiculous as I was attempting to be at first.
Take care,
Dennis
> From the document I can see that it does not yet have a PS-2 rating. For
> use as a replacement for OSB sheathing it will also need approval for use
> as structural sheathing in the US from ICC. Otherwise it does not have
> the horizontal shear capacity need for use in shear walls. There are
> several products on the market that can be used where wind loads govern
> the design, but they cannot be used where seismic governs.
>
> Here in the Pacific NW, we get both wind and seismic!
| |
| marson 2007-03-23, 9:25 pm |
| (At least that would allow
> the price of OSB to return to somewhere around normal.)
Might not be the best time to build a straw board plant...7/16 OSB is
down to about 6 bucks a sheet in my neck of the woods.
| |
| Dennis 2007-03-26, 5:25 pm |
| Wow. That's a far cry to what it was last spring.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a proponent of non-wood products, I simply find
it extremely interesting that a deck made from non-wood products like straw
is even feasible. A product considered as waste.
I find it interesting as to what the world is coming to.
"marson" <briankontio@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174699753.793810.127300@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> (At least that would allow
>
> Might not be the best time to build a straw board plant...7/16 OSB is
> down to about 6 bucks a sheet in my neck of the woods.
>
| |
| Bob Morrison 2007-03-26, 5:25 pm |
| In a previous post Dennis wrote...
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not a proponent of non-wood products, I simply find
> it extremely interesting that a deck made from non-wood products like straw
> is even feasible. A product considered as waste.
> I find it interesting as to what the world is coming to.
>
Many of these products are structural resin with some sort of fiber filler
so that they can be installed with nails or screws. The trick is not what
is is being used for the fiber filler, but the proper distribution of the
fibers in the resin. The fibers must be the right shape and weight, or
they don't distribute through the mix and then press into sheets properly.
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
| |
| Dennis 2007-03-29, 8:25 pm |
| I've seen a lot of those type products, but I wouldn't consider them as
non-wood as they need the wood fiber for strength. (Actually I've only read
about them, never seen them used anywhere.)
The OSSB seems differnt however. According the the manufacturer, they "split
the hollow plant stalks to maximize the surface area on the straw fibres.
The increased surface area allows the individual fibres to bond when mixed
with an isocyanate resin, which is then subjected to heat and pressure. This
process causes the individual fibres to inter-weave, creating a panel equal
in strength to wood based OSB products."
I haven't read what the nail holding values are, that would be a critical
factor; of course.
In the future, the little piggy's house made out of straw may very well be
the better one! <grin>
Dennis
"Bob Morrison" <SpamFighter@junk.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2071e4e0558331b6989d95@news.west.earthlink.net...
> In a previous post Dennis wrote...
>
> Many of these products are structural resin with some sort of fiber filler
> so that they can be installed with nails or screws. The trick is not what
> is is being used for the fiber filler, but the proper distribution of the
> fibers in the resin. The fibers must be the right shape and weight, or
> they don't distribute through the mix and then press into sheets properly.
>
> --
> Bob Morrison, PE, SE
> R L Morrison Engineering Co
> Structural & Civil Engineering
> Poulsbo WA
> bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com
| |
| Wayne Whitney 2007-03-30, 1:25 pm |
| On 2007-03-29, Dennis <webmaster@npcc.net> wrote:
> I haven't read what the nail holding values are, that would be a
> critical factor; of course.
The information on OSSB that Bob Morrison originally pointed to said
that the product is not to be used as a nail base for siding.
Cheers, Wayne
| |
| Dennis 2007-03-30, 8:25 pm |
| The info published by the manufacturer states it's going to be the
equivalent to OSB. (Still in pilot plant.)
(And there's an ICC spec on it as a structural board.)
(BTW, I was the one one who pointed to the URL; Bob's not interested in this
stuff. He's a plywood, OSB man.)
"Wayne Whitney" <whitney@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnf0qgpm.3h1.whitney@pizza.private...
> On 2007-03-29, Dennis <webmaster@npcc.net> wrote:
>
>
> The information on OSSB that Bob Morrison originally pointed to said
> that the product is not to be used as a nail base for siding.
>
> Cheers, Wayne
>
| |
| Wayne Whitney 2007-03-31, 3:25 am |
| On 2007-03-30, Dennis <webmaster@npcc.net> wrote:
> The info published by the manufacturer states it's going to be the
> equivalent to OSB. (Still in pilot plant.) (And there's an ICC spec
> on it as a structural board.) (BTW, I was the one one who pointed
> to the URL; Bob's not interested in this stuff. He's a plywood, OSB
> man.)
Sorry, my mistake, I was confusing the "Fiberbrace" Structural Wall
Sheathing that Bob Morrison did reference (and which says it is not to
be used as a nail base for siding) with the OSSB that you referenced.
Cheers, Wayne
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