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| Author |
Milwaukee = Ryobi?
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| SparkyGuy 2007-05-09, 1:25 pm |
| <http://www.ttigroup.com/business/br...60bdf5aa3e07dae
76124a967>
The design may be different, but they are manufactured by the same Chinese
factory.
Reluctantly, I'm taking Milwaukee off of my preferred list of tool makers.
(It's getting pretty short!)
Sparky
| |
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| Chris Lewis 2007-05-09, 5:25 pm |
| According to dpb <bozarth.d@gmail.com>:
> On May 9, 11:30 am, SparkyGuy <Sparky...@mumcrank.ck> wrote:
>
> Not so...see
>
> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/us/en/...es?OpenDocument
Er:
http://www.ttigroup.com/customPages...3e07da76124a967
Quote:
Techtronic Industuries acquired the Milwaukee. brand and businesses in 2005
TTI (HQ'd in Hong Kong) _owns_ Milwaukee. And, AEG, Ryobi, Hoover and Dirt Devil.
Then from
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/us/en/...es?OpenDocument
Quote:
Milwaukee's power tool and accessories are also manufactured to its exacting
standards in modern facilities in Europe and throughout the world.
I think "throughout the world" probably includes China.
As with most consumer products, there really are only a few companies making
them. There's often quite a difference between the brands. Other times,
none at all.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
| |
| Edwin Pawlowski 2007-05-09, 5:25 pm |
|
"Chris Lewis" <clewis@nortelnetworks.com> wrote in message
>
> Er:
>
> http://www.ttigroup.com/customPages...3e07da76124a967
>
> Quote:
>
> Techtronic Industuries acquired the Milwaukee. brand and businesses in
> 2005
>
> TTI (HQ'd in Hong Kong) _owns_ Milwaukee. And, AEG, Ryobi, Hoover and
> Dirt Devil.
>
> Then from
>
> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/us/en/...es?OpenDocument
>
> Quote:
>
> Milwaukee's power tool and accessories are also manufactured to its
> exacting
> standards in modern facilities in Europe and throughout the world.
>
> I think "throughout the world" probably includes China.
And that may or may not matter. Just because it is made in China does not
mean it is low quality.
| |
|
| On May 9, 1:48 pm, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
> According to dpb <bozart...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
> Er:
>
> http://www.ttigroup.com/customPages...ID=f7fbd3dd6...
>
> Quote:
>
> Techtronic Industuries acquired the Milwaukee. brand and businesses in 2005
>
> TTI (HQ'd in Hong Kong) _owns_ Milwaukee. And, AEG, Ryobi, Hoover and Dirt Devil.
>
> Then from
>
> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/us/en/...quarters-and...
>
> Quote:
>
> Milwaukee's power tool and accessories are also manufactured to its exacting
> standards in modern facilities in Europe and throughout the world.
>
> I think "throughout the world" probably includes China.
....
And from the link I previously posted -quote -
"Milwaukee is headquartered in Brookfield, Wisconsin, which is also
home to research, new product development, manufacturing support,
marketing, sales and information systems. It has modern production
facilities in Greenwood, Jackson and Kosciusko, Mississippi;
Blytheville, Arkansas and Matamoros, Mexico.
Milwaukee's power tool and accessories are also manufactured to its
exacting standards in modern facilities in Europe and throughout the
world. In 2001, the Milwaukee brand was launched in Australia by
Milwaukee's sister company AEG, located in Winnenden, Germany and was
re-launched in Europe and the rest of the world in 2002. ..."
I didn't say the were _only_ made in US, and, if you'll note the quote
you posted includes the key world "also". It's pretty clear the
products for SE Asia/Australia/etc. markets are produced outside the
US and the European are at least partially produced there.
If you'll also look at the TTI web page you'll find a message that
brand loyalty and identification is a key business strategy and that
they have a very deliberate idea of marketing to the full range of
customers and price ranges as an overall company and that all products
are not designed for all markets.
Search for a thread only a few weeks ago where I posted a significant
more detailed analysis in response to another poster's questions about
Milwaukee. There's quite an interesting story in there as I learned
while doing quite a bit of research a year or so ago in order to
evaluate the company as investment opportunity/merit...they're not the
ordinary stereotypical "Chinese startup" kind of outfit by any means
despite having some production in China and Ryobi being their initial
product...
| |
|
| On May 9, 4:15 pm, dpb <bozart...@gmail.com> wrote:
....
> ...they're not the
> ordinary stereotypical "Chinese startup" kind of outfit by any means
> despite having some production in China and Ryobi being their initial
> product...
Sorry, didn't say that right -- they started supplying products
primarily to Sears, then started the Ryobi and generated the
sweetheart deal w/HD with it and parlayed that into what they
currently are rather than Ryobi first. But they knew specifically
what market they were after w/ Ryobi and it wasn't/isn't
Milwaukee's...
| |
|
|
If I may sound off on this one,
Personally where the tool is manufactured weighs in little for me. As
much as I would prefer to buy American or Canadian, (keep our boys
working) QUALITY will be my sole decider. I know China has meant, and
in some cases still means cheap crap and deeper still human rights
issues, etc. But the world is headed in that direction. And better and
better stuff keeps coming from that manufacturing juggernaut know as
cheap labor China. Often they are our companies, exploiting the labor
cost difference. Anyway that said, I have been a BOSCH fan for years.
I've recently been displeased with a few of their newer tools, but the
Mitre Box for example, well... IMHO ,I dont think theres a better one
on earth at any price point. I love mine.
| |
|
|
Jack wrote:
> If I may sound off on this one,
> Personally where the tool is manufactured weighs in little for me. As
> much as I would prefer to buy American or Canadian, (keep our boys
> working) QUALITY will be my sole decider....
Unfortunately for those w/ that as a primary criterion, a major
fraction of purchasers apparently have PRICE as the sole decider,
which allows the poor quality stuff to succeed in the market place. 
My point to OP wasn't really about China per se, but a particular
company and a false assumption.
| |
|
| As a retired contractor, I have always sworn by Skil too. Got a
battery drill sometime ago at Lowes that is a beauty. It was on
special for about 40 bucks. Wish I had my 40 back. Used it 4
times, ie charged it 4 times and the charger won't work any more.
The store manager of that department said the charger would
probably be almost as much ad I paid for the whole thing and they
sold a bunch of them and he said everyone is just throwing them
away.
So much for Skil and so much for Lowes.
"Jack" <messier1199@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1178770538.812849.117340@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> If I may sound off on this one,
> Personally where the tool is manufactured weighs in little for
> me. As
> much as I would prefer to buy American or Canadian, (keep our
> boys
> working) QUALITY will be my sole decider. I know China has
> meant, and
> in some cases still means cheap crap and deeper still human
> rights
> issues, etc. But the world is headed in that direction. And
> better and
> better stuff keeps coming from that manufacturing juggernaut
> know as
> cheap labor China. Often they are our companies, exploiting the
> labor
> cost difference. Anyway that said, I have been a BOSCH fan for
> years.
> I've recently been displeased with a few of their newer tools,
> but the
> Mitre Box for example, well... IMHO ,I dont think theres a
> better one
> on earth at any price point. I love mine.
>
| |
| Chris Friesen 2007-05-10, 1:25 pm |
| Glenn wrote:
> As a retired contractor, I have always sworn by Skil too.
Skil has been mostly junk for quite a while. You only noticed this lately?
They still make the worm-drive circular saw though, and it's still good.
Chris
| |
|
| Been retired for 18 years so haven't bought much lately.
I had 2 of the older battery drills and 4 batteries for them. My
people used them every day, all day. Usually had one or 2 bats
charging during the day, 1 hr charge. We used and Pounded them
for years and they never failed. Batteries took a memory finally
and I replaced the bats once. Shame a good Co goes to crap.
"Chris Friesen" <cbf123@mail.usask.ca> wrote in message
news:1346ek1cvt8h649@corp.supernews.com...
> Glenn wrote:
>
> Skil has been mostly junk for quite a while. You only noticed
> this lately?
>
> They still make the worm-drive circular saw though, and it's
> still good.
>
> Chris
| |
| Chris Lewis 2007-05-11, 9:25 am |
| According to dpb <bozarth.d@gmail.com>:
> I didn't say the were _only_ made in US, and, if you'll note the quote
> you posted includes the key world "also". It's pretty clear the
> products for SE Asia/Australia/etc. markets are produced outside the
> US and the European are at least partially produced there.
You may be construing that I'm against tools made in China simply
because they're made in China. Not so. They may be, or they may not,
that really doesn't enter into my tool preferences.
It's by no means clear whether there is any regional affinity between
manufacturing location and market. It simply doesn't say.
The reality is that companies strive for the cheapest possible
manufacturing costs consistent with keeping/gaining market.
"Milwaulkee" is an important name, so for long term viability they
have to keep the quality that they're famous for. Which means
"higher end" design (eg: more rugged tools by design), and good QA.
They're going to pick the cheapest place to manufacture consistent
with the QA. If they can maintain the desired QA in China, they're
going to make it in China. Especially if they're Chinese. Anything
else makes no business sense.
Further, manufacturing devices like this draws on all sorts of parts.
Chances are that various parts are made by different companies
in different countries, and assembly might be somewhere else entirely.
Again, under the QA management they figure they want and can achieve.
I'd _prefer_ to buy locally manufactured stuff (which for me isn't
the US), but if it doesn't meet my price-quality requirements, I won't.
I have tools that were made in China. And tools made just down the
street by Lee Valley. I decide what I need/want vs price, and pick
the best match. Sometimes a cheap crappy tool fits my needs better
than a high priced high quality one.
> If you'll also look at the TTI web page you'll find a message that
> brand loyalty and identification is a key business strategy and that
> they have a very deliberate idea of marketing to the full range of
> customers and price ranges as an overall company and that all products
> are not designed for all markets.
I saw all of that, but, remember, manufacturing _location_ has
relatively little bearing on any of it. China produces some very
high quality stuff, as well as crap. Every country is like that.
> Search for a thread only a few weeks ago where I posted a significant
> more detailed analysis in response to another poster's questions about
> Milwaukee. There's quite an interesting story in there as I learned
> while doing quite a bit of research a year or so ago in order to
> evaluate the company as investment opportunity/merit...they're not the
> ordinary stereotypical "Chinese startup" kind of outfit by any means
> despite having some production in China and Ryobi being their initial
> product...
Obviously. Neither is Rexon. Purchasing a company like Milwaulkee
is an expensive proposition simply because of its brand. It would
be stupid to buy Milwaulkee and then let its quality and reputation
go down the toilet.
The fact that Milwaulkee is/is not made in China really doesn't
matter to me. What matters is whether one of their tools is
consistent with my needs/expectations. Unfortunately for Milwaulkee,
I don't need any of those tools at the moment (and the B&D store
where I bought my rebuilt Dewalts cheap is just around the corner ;-)
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
| |
|
| On May 10, 10:14 am, "Glenn" <pilc...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
> As a retired contractor, I have always sworn by Skil too. Got a
> battery drill sometime ago at Lowes that is a beauty. It was on
> special for about 40 bucks. Wish I had my 40 back. Used it 4
> times, ie charged it 4 times and the charger won't work any more.
> The store manager of that department said the charger would
> probably be almost as much ad I paid for the whole thing and they
> sold a bunch of them and he said everyone is just throwing them
> away.
>
> So much for Skil and so much for Lowes.
>
> "Jack" <messier1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1178770538.812849.117340@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have been through several Skill, Craftsman, and Black Decker
cordless tools over the past few years and been rather disappointed in
all of them. Nine months ago I bought a combination set of tools from
Ryobi and couldn't be happier with their performance. The overall
qualitiy of the tools is good and their performance has been well
above that of the previous tools.
I bought them partly because of the price but more important to me was
the value. By that I mean that I compared both price and quality, not
one or the other. That is what you should be looking for when making
any purchase. There may be better tools on the market but if their
price is too high compared to their quality they don't represent a
good value. Likewise, cheaper tools may be of such low quality that
they are not a good value either.
When purchasing any tool or other product the ultimate value is based
on usage. I purchased a tile saw several months ago for $199 from
Harbor Freight. It was far from the best saw available and was also
not the cheapest saw available. I knew that I only had two or three
projects that I would be using it for over the next year or two. The
first thought was to buy one for $75-$100 or so but examination showed
that they would probably cost more in poor cuts and wasted tiles than
they would save. They were not good for more than a tile backdrop in
the kitchen.
I looked at top of the line saws and found them to be great quality
and would last through years of commercial use but their price to use
value for me wasn't there. So, I ended up buying an inexpensive saw
with more than enough value that was probably build in China but gave
me exactly what I needed, the best value for the dollar spent.
| |
|
| I once bought a little 1/4" no-name drill because I wanted the
RPM's of a little one. Got it at the lumber yard for something
like 10 bucks. We used that little thing for years and the drill
head bearing is so worn out that you can wiggle the chuck around
but it still runs well.
"BobR" <reed1@r-a-reed-assoc.com> wrote in message >
> I have been through several Skill, Craftsman, and Black Decker
> cordless tools over the past few years and been rather
> disappointed in
> all of them. Nine months ago I bought a combination set of
> tools from
> Ryobi and couldn't be happier with their performance. The
> overall
> qualitiy of the tools is good and their performance has been
> well
> above that of the previous tools.
>
> I bought them partly because of the price but more important to
> me was
> the value. By that I mean that I compared both price and
> quality, not
> one or the other. That is what you should be looking for when
> making
> any purchase. There may be better tools on the market but if
> their
> price is too high compared to their quality they don't represent
> a
> good value. Likewise, cheaper tools may be of such low quality
> that
> they are not a good value either.
>
> When purchasing any tool or other product the ultimate value is
> based
> on usage. I purchased a tile saw several months ago for $199
> from
> Harbor Freight. It was far from the best saw available and was
> also
> not the cheapest saw available. I knew that I only had two or
> three
> projects that I would be using it for over the next year or two.
> The
> first thought was to buy one for $75-$100 or so but examination
> showed
> that they would probably cost more in poor cuts and wasted tiles
> than
> they would save. They were not good for more than a tile
> backdrop in
> the kitchen.
>
> I looked at top of the line saws and found them to be great
> quality
> and would last through years of commercial use but their price
> to use
> value for me wasn't there. So, I ended up buying an inexpensive
> saw
> with more than enough value that was probably build in China but
> gave
> me exactly what I needed, the best value for the dollar spent.
>
>
| |
|
| On May 11, 8:34 am, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
> According to dpb <bozart...@gmail.com>:
>
>
> You may be construing that I'm against tools made in China simply
> because they're made in China. Not so. They may be, or they may not,
> that really doesn't enter into my tool preferences.
>
> It's by no means clear whether there is any regional affinity between
> manufacturing location and market. It simply doesn't say.
No, I was just responding to what seemed like a claim that what I had
posted was in error and an inferred attempt to indicate that there was
no US manufacturing...if that wasn't the intent/purpose, ok.
It seems fair to me to assume that since Milwaukee built a large
fraction of their tools for the US market in the US before the buyout
and those facilities are still in operation that they're still
producing for the US market in the US. While undoubtedly they're
bringing in parts from all over for assembly, doesn't seem at logical
to ship from overseas to the US and then back to, say, Australia when
could build for that market much closer...
| |
|
| On May 11, 9:38 am, BobR <r...@r-a-reed-assoc.com> wrote:
....
> I have been through several Skill, Craftsman, and Black Decker
> cordless tools over the past few years and been rather disappointed in
> all of them. Nine months ago I bought a combination set of tools from
> Ryobi and couldn't be happier with their performance. The overall
> qualitiy of the tools is good and their performance has been well
> above that of the previous tools.
...
Well, w/ those as comparatives, you're in at least the same general
range of target market. TTI of course, began as a manufacturer for
Sears/Craftsman and then built the Ryobi brand and got the
distribution deal w/ HD from that experience/basis. While I haven't
looked in detail for several years now, it would be surprising to find
they're not still making a fair amount of stuff for Sears. I've not
investigated the Skil/B&D actual manufacturing relationships enough to
know of any possible connection in production facilities although one
would presume they're not contracting for them, even that wouldn't be
out of the realm of possibilities.
| |
|
| On May 11, 11:16 am, dpb <bozart...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 11, 9:38 am, BobR <r...@r-a-reed-assoc.com> wrote:
> ...
>
>
> ..
>
> Well, w/ those as comparatives, you're in at least the same general
> range of target market. TTI of course, began as a manufacturer for
> Sears/Craftsman and then built the Ryobi brand and got the
> distribution deal w/ HD from that experience/basis. While I haven't
> looked in detail for several years now, it would be surprising to find
> they're not still making a fair amount of stuff for Sears. I've not
> investigated the Skil/B&D actual manufacturing relationships enough to
> know of any possible connection in production facilities although one
> would presume they're not contracting for them, even that wouldn't be
> out of the realm of possibilities.
I was talking with a plumbing company the other day who was also using
Ryobi tools. Caught me by surprise that they would be using them
since their load demand would far exceed mine. I ask them if they
were happy with the tools and the quality. Their answer was that
while the tools were not as good as say the Dewalt brand, their cost
was so much lower that they could by three or four and still save
money. Their experience had shown about 3/4 of the use at 1/4 of the
cost. Still seems like a good value.
| |
| Chris Lewis 2007-05-11, 5:25 pm |
| According to dpb <bozarth.d@gmail.com>:
> It seems fair to me to assume that since Milwaukee built a large
> fraction of their tools for the US market in the US before the buyout
> and those facilities are still in operation that they're still
> producing for the US market in the US.
It may seem fair to assume, but the huge difference in labor costs
often completely swamp transportation and/or retooling costs.
If they can ship gluten that far, portable power tools is a no-brainer.
You have heard of outsourcing haven't you? :-(
Delta's bandsaws, for example, have been made in many different
places over the years. At times by companies who produce
clones to be sold as different brands on exactly the same lines.
> While undoubtedly they're
> bringing in parts from all over for assembly, doesn't seem at logical
> to ship from overseas to the US and then back to, say, Australia when
> could build for that market much closer...
The world tool market is a confusing place. Take a look at
a Woodworking magazine tool review sometime and notice how
many of the planers look identical except for minor differences
in the plastic shells.
Hint: they were all made in the same place.
Good chance that TTI is selling "milwaulkee" in the far eastern
market, except that the shell is a different color and the brand
name is completely unpronounceable.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
| |
| Tim Smith 2007-05-11, 5:25 pm |
| On 2007-05-11, Chris Lewis <clewis@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
>
> It may seem fair to assume, but the huge difference in labor costs
> often completely swamp transportation and/or retooling costs.
> If they can ship gluten that far, portable power tools is a no-brainer.
On the other hand, if a manufacturer has an efficient manufacturing
process, the difference in labor costs become much less significant.
The best example of this (although it is not a tool company, the
principle still applies) is Dell. The manufacture computers for country
X in or near country X. Dells for the US market, for example, are made
in the US. The cost of shipping a completed computer from Asia is more
than the difference in labor costs between well paid US workers with
full benefits, and prison labor in some 3rd world country.
It just doesn't matter if labor costs here are 10x labor costs there,
when you only have a few minutes labor going into the product.
| |
| Matt Barrow 2007-05-11, 5:25 pm |
|
"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:1349f0udernp62b@news.supernews.com...
> The best example of this (although it is not a tool company, the
> principle still applies) is Dell. The manufacture computers for country
> X in or near country X. Dells for the US market, for example, are made
> in the US.
Not any more.
--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO
| |
|
|
"Chris Lewis" <clewis@nortelnetworks.com> wrote in message
news:1349e94c91vdkc1@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Delta's bandsaws, for example, have been made in many different
> places over the years. At times by companies who produce
> clones to be sold as different brands on exactly the same lines.
That's nothing new, the same product with different names, Had an
employee who worked in a battery factory before the war (WWII)
whose line put 5 different labels on the same battery coming down
the line. So we are looking at vintage '35 to '40.
| |
| Tim Smith 2007-05-11, 5:25 pm |
| On 2007-05-11, Matt Barrow <mbarrow@performancehomes.com> wrote:
>
> Not any more.
You're thinking of Dell's support. They've moved that overseas. They
still build the computers in or near the country they sell them. Note
that support is almost all labor.
| |
|
|
Chris Lewis wrote:
> According to dpb <bozarth.d@gmail.com>:
>
>
> It may seem fair to assume, but the huge difference in labor costs
> often completely swamp transportation and/or retooling costs.
....
Well, I just looked at the Milwaukee 18V hammer-drill I bought quite
some time ago -- well before the TTI buyout. Care to guess where it
says it was manufactured? (Hint--surprised me no end). 
I have another bought just last year, but for the moment it's
unaccessible so can't go look until the truck it's in gets back for a
comparison examination...
| |
|
|
Chris Lewis wrote:
> According to dpb <bozarth.d@gmail.com>:
>
>
> It may seem fair to assume, but the huge difference in labor costs
> often completely swamp transportation and/or retooling costs.
....
Well, it's clear that what they're assembling and/or manufacturing in
the US can't be cheaper to ship halfway 'round the world than
locally. Now whether they can make the same product(s) cheaper enough
somewhere else in the world and still ship them in is, of course,
another analysis entirely. _ALL_ I'm saying is there are still
Milwaukee manufacturing facilities in the US in contrast to OP's
apparent contention/belief that the TTI takeover meant cheap stuff of
the same production line w/ Ryobi.
That production is worldwide now and has been for some time is not in
contention, at least by me. I know full well that York/Delta/several
other in the woodworking tools are the _same_ tool simply branded w/
_perhaps_ some slightly differing features/amenities and if your're
really lucky, a little better qc on a Delta as opposed to York.
Doesn't have any real bearing on the original post (at least as I read
it) and the response I've made...
| |
| Matt Barrow 2007-05-11, 5:25 pm |
|
"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:1349kmf3jr4oa80@news.supernews.com...
> On 2007-05-11, Matt Barrow <mbarrow@performancehomes.com> wrote:
>
> You're thinking of Dell's support. They've moved that overseas. They
> still build the computers in or near the country they sell them. Note
> that support is almost all labor.
My Dell, bought in February, says "Made in China".
| |
| George 2007-05-11, 8:25 pm |
| Tim Smith wrote:
> On 2007-05-11, Chris Lewis <clewis@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
>
> On the other hand, if a manufacturer has an efficient manufacturing
> process, the difference in labor costs become much less significant.
> The best example of this (although it is not a tool company, the
> principle still applies) is Dell. The manufacture computers for country
> X in or near country X. Dells for the US market, for example, are made
> in the US.
Dell computers for the US market are made offshore.
The cost of shipping a completed computer from Asia is more
> than the difference in labor costs between well paid US workers with
> full benefits, and prison labor in some 3rd world country.
>
> It just doesn't matter if labor costs here are 10x labor costs there,
> when you only have a few minutes labor going into the product.
| |
| George 2007-05-11, 8:25 pm |
| Tim Smith wrote:
> On 2007-05-11, Matt Barrow <mbarrow@performancehomes.com> wrote:
>
> You're thinking of Dell's support. They've moved that overseas. They
> still build the computers in or near the country they sell them. Note
> that support is almost all labor.
Dell computers are made offshore (including the ones customized just for
you). They bring them in large cargo containers and then the cargo
company opens the container and ships the individual units that are
already boxed for shipment.
| |
| Tim Smith 2007-05-11, 8:25 pm |
| In article <TV41i.37413$jt2.13313@newsfe13.lga>,
"Matt Barrow" <mbarrow@performancehomes.com> wrote:
>
> My Dell, bought in February, says "Made in China".
Is it a laptop? Laptops for Dell (and most of the other major vendors)
are made by a handful of Asian companies, and then branded as Dell, HP,
etc.
--
--Tim Smith
| |
|
| On May 11, 5:30 pm, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Tim Smith wrote:
>
>
> Dell computers are made offshore (including the ones customized just for
> you). They bring them in large cargo containers and then the cargo
> company opens the container and ships the individual units that are
> already boxed for shipment.
That's not possible in the time frame of placing an order and getting
delivery in only a few days. AFAIK, they still are assembling
components in the US although I'm not sure whether it's in Austin and
longer. Seems like I heard the built a new facility not too long
(Nashville, maybe???) but don't know if it replaced or augmented
existing facility/(ies)...
For the other note, there is no "Made In" sticker on my (relatively
new) tower other than the individual components inside, but nothing
applicable to the box itself as a whole...
| |
| Tim Smith 2007-05-11, 8:25 pm |
| In article <pf2dnUl6PJS5c9nbnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Dell computers are made offshore (including the ones customized just for
> you). They bring them in large cargo containers and then the cargo
> company opens the container and ships the individual units that are
> already boxed for shipment.
Nope. There was a long article about this a couple years or so ago:
<http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/b...ll.html?ex=1179
028800&en=9664407af95bef68&ei=5070>
Dell does have a factory in China. It makes the computers they sell in
Asia. Their factory in Ireland makes computers they sell in Europe.
And their three US factories make their computers for the US.
--
--Tim Smith
| |
| Tim Smith 2007-05-11, 8:25 pm |
| In article <pf2dnU56PJQRcNnbnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> Dell computers for the US market are made offshore.
Most people would not consider Austin, Nashville, and Winston-Salem to
be offshore. :-)
--
--Tim Smith
| |
|
| On May 11, 6:46 pm, Tim Smith <reply_in_gr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> In article <pf2dnU56PJQRcNnbnZ2dnUVZ_r-dn...@comcast.com>,
>
> George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Most people would not consider Austin, Nashville, and Winston-Salem to
> be offshore. :-)
Only those moderately geographically literate in North America, I
guess...
---
| |
| Matt Barrow 2007-05-11, 8:25 pm |
|
"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:reply_in_group-7FC47E.16461611052007@news.supernews.com...
> In article <pf2dnU56PJQRcNnbnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> Most people would not consider Austin, Nashville, and Winston-Salem to
> be offshore. :-)
>
How about answering why my three month old Dell says "Made in China" on the
box as well as on the case.
| |
| aemeijers 2007-05-11, 9:25 pm |
|
"Matt Barrow" <mbarrow@performancehomes.com> wrote in message
news:W481i.171280$2Q1.70612@newsfe16.lga...
>
> "Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> news:reply_in_group-7FC47E.16461611052007@news.supernews.com...
> How about answering why my three month old Dell says "Made in China" on
> the box as well as on the case.
>
The laptops have been made offshore for ages. Last I looked, their
<commercial grade> desktops were still assembled in US (Using a lot of
pacific rim components, of course.) Monitors are OEM'd by other vendors,
presumably overseas, as are keyboards and mice and such. No idea where their
consumer-grade machines like in the Sunday paper are knocked together.
aem sends...
| |
| Matt Barrow 2007-05-12, 3:25 am |
|
"aemeijers" <aemeijers@att.net> wrote in message
news:QN81i.135032$VU4.65919@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Matt Barrow" <mbarrow@performancehomes.com> wrote in message
> news:W481i.171280$2Q1.70612@newsfe16.lga...
> The laptops have been made offshore for ages. Last I looked, their
> <commercial grade> desktops were still assembled in US (Using a lot of
> pacific rim components, of course.) Monitors are OEM'd by other vendors,
> presumably overseas, as are keyboards and mice and such. No idea where
> their consumer-grade machines like in the Sunday paper are knocked
> together.
>
Dimension 9200C fits...where?
| |
| George 2007-05-12, 9:25 am |
| dpb wrote:
> On May 11, 5:30 pm, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> That's not possible in the time frame of placing an order and getting
> delivery in only a few days. AFAIK, they still are assembling
> components in the US although I'm not sure whether it's in Austin and
> longer. Seems like I heard the built a new facility not too long
> (Nashville, maybe???) but don't know if it replaced or augmented
> existing facility/(ies)...
Why not? It only takes 16 hours to fly freight over from China. The
"Dell factory" in Memphis is simply the Fedex hub. My nephew flys for
them on that route. The stuff gets put in containers in China
pre-addressed and ready to go. They open the containers here and put the
package into the US parcel system. The label shows it came from TN.
Also it only takes 4 days for stuff to get here by boat. There are
literally thousands of shipments brought in every day by boat.
>
> For the other note, there is no "Made In" sticker on my (relatively
> new) tower other than the individual components inside, but nothing
> applicable to the box itself as a whole...
>
Better report that so it can be tracked down. I hear they cut the pay in
half for such mistakes so someone is going to get $8/month when they
find them...
| |
| George 2007-05-12, 9:25 am |
| Tim Smith wrote:
> In article <pf2dnU56PJQRcNnbnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> Most people would not consider Austin, Nashville, and Winston-Salem to
> be offshore. :-)
>
Sorry *most* Dell computers for the US market are made offshore. As I
explained earlier the "Nashville factory" is simply the point where
cargo enters the US parcel delivery system. I don't know about Winston
Salem but that may be another freight carriers hub.
And as someone else suggested you can also cross check this by looking
at the label. Every one I have seen says "Made in China".
| |
| George 2007-05-12, 9:25 am |
| aemeijers wrote:
> "Matt Barrow" <mbarrow@performancehomes.com> wrote in message
> news:W481i.171280$2Q1.70612@newsfe16.lga...
> The laptops have been made offshore for ages. Last I looked, their
> <commercial grade> desktops were still assembled in US (Using a lot of
> pacific rim components, of course.) Monitors are OEM'd by other vendors,
> presumably overseas, as are keyboards and mice and such. No idea where their
> consumer-grade machines like in the Sunday paper are knocked together.
>
> aem sends...
>
>
Wifes office just got a bunch of new Optiplex machines which are their
"business grade" units and they all have "Made in China" stickers.
| |
| Edwin Pawlowski 2007-05-12, 9:25 am |
|
"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> Also it only takes 4 days for stuff to get here by boat. There are
> literally thousands of shipments brought in every day by boat.
And it takes a hell of a lot longer than four days to see your merchandise.
Containers usually have to be at the port three days in advance of sailing
and it can take up to a week on this end to clear customs and be delivered.
Door to door can easily be 3 to 4 weeks.
| |
| Tim Smith 2007-05-12, 5:25 pm |
| In article <7YKdnU9nEqc0A9jbnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> Sorry *most* Dell computers for the US market are made offshore. As I
> explained earlier the "Nashville factory" is simply the point where
No, the Nashville factory is a factory:
<http://www.statesman.com/business/c...s/archive/04100
0_dell.html>
Quote from that article:
A year ago, Stacey Shannon was making her living stapling bar-code
tags on rugs at a Nashville carpet maker.
Today the 27-year-old works 25 miles down Interstate 40 in Lebanon,
Tenn., and a world away, building desktop computers for Dell
Computer Corp.
``I didn't think I'd actually know how to build a computer,''
Shannon said. ``Now I know how to build one like the back of my
hand. It's easier than I thought."
More information on the various facilities Dell has in that area, and
what they do:
<http://www.dell.com/content/topics/...office/en/2006/
2006_06_02_nv_000?c=us&l=en&s=corp>
> cargo enters the US parcel delivery system. I don't know about Winston
> Salem but that may be another freight carriers hub.
Nope. It's a manufacturing facility:
<http://www.dell.com/content/topics/...office/en/2004/
2004_12_22_rr_000?c=us&l=en&s=gen>
<http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArt...ArticleID=10007>
A quote from that:
Dell's Winston-Salem plant will produce PowerEdge servers,
PowerVault and Dell/EMC products, and OptiPlex and Dimension desktop
computers primarily for the U.S. market. Winston-Salem's
distribution advantages played into the company's site choice.
Here's an article on how Dell does things:
<http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/b...ll.html?ex=1179
115200&en=35bb32b32772e89a&ei=5070>
--
--Tim Smith
| |
| aemeijers 2007-05-12, 5:25 pm |
|
"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:srSdnagb6qWMPdjbnZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> aemeijers wrote:
>
> Wifes office just got a bunch of new Optiplex machines which are their
> "business grade" units and they all have "Made in China" stickers.
It saddens me to read that. Dell got underbid on the last go-round at work,
so I haven't seen any brand new Optiplexes in a couple of years.
aem sends...
| |
| George 2007-05-12, 8:25 pm |
| Tim Smith wrote:
>
> <http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArt...ArticleID=10007>
>
> A quote from that:
>
> Dell's Winston-Salem plant will produce PowerEdge servers,
> PowerVault and Dell/EMC products, and OptiPlex and Dimension desktop
> computers primarily for the U.S. market. Winston-Salem's
> distribution advantages played into the company's site choice.
>
> Here's an article on how Dell does things:
>
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/b...ll.html?ex=1179
> 115200&en=35bb32b32772e89a&ei=5070>
>
But those are just the usual warm and fuzzy press releases from the past
about the great stuff that is *going* to happen after they got the
development grants/no taxes for 10 years exemptions. Did any of it
actually happen?
My nephew (and associates) fly in lots of Dell computers from China
every day. Every new Dell computer I have seen recently is marked "Made
in China"
| |
| Matt Barrow 2007-05-12, 8:25 pm |
|
"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:JJ-dndTKiboE39vbnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Tim Smith wrote:
>
>
> But those are just the usual warm and fuzzy press releases from the past
> about the great stuff that is *going* to happen after they got the
> development grants/no taxes for 10 years exemptions.
Exactly...the typical PR/Marketing "weasel words".
| |
|
| On May 12, 5:45 pm, "Matt Barrow" <mbar...@performancehomes.com>
wrote:
> "George" <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>
> news:JJ-dndTKiboE39vbnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Exactly...the typical PR/Marketing "weasel words".
I don't know exactly how Dell is operating those facilities now as
opposed to when they were opened--I suppose (although I doubt) they
could be building individualized towers, etc., overseas and shipping
them in, but it just doesn't sound logical. I was in TN when the
Lebanon, TN (east of Nashville) opened and it certainly was an
assembly/manufacturing facility then. That was roughly '99 time frame
iirc. I just looked at the Economic Development Organization for the
area and they still show 1500 employees at the Dell Lebanon, TN,
facility, but could find nothing up-to-date on what they're actually
doing. Would seem unlikely they would need 1500 people to unload and
re-ship, however.
Dell web site is uninformative -- would have to read annual reports
and do more research than I'm interested in doing to find out more
detail. I can believe the laptop and some specialty business, but
really have a hard time conceiving it could be cost-effective to fly
in large quantities of the bulk type machines already assembled/
software loaded/etc....
But, I've been wrong before...
| |
| Tim Smith 2007-05-12, 8:25 pm |
| In article <JJ-dndTKiboE39vbnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> But those are just the usual warm and fuzzy press releases from the past
> about the great stuff that is *going* to happen after they got the
> development grants/no taxes for 10 years exemptions. Did any of it
> actually happen?
Yes. They have a 500000 sq ft facility in Winston-Salem, of which they
are using about 40% of the space, for 700 people to assembly computers.
That was as of about two months ago:
<http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/S...2FMGArticle%2FW
SJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137834549592>
> My nephew (and associates) fly in lots of Dell computers from China
> every day. Every new Dell computer I have seen recently is marked "Made
> in China"
Most likely your nephew is flying in parts for Dell. Much of Dell's
parts come from Asia (disk drives, for example).
--
--Tim Smith
| |
| Edwin Pawlowski 2007-05-12, 9:25 pm |
|
"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
>
> Most likely your nephew is flying in parts for Dell. Much of Dell's
> parts come from Asia (disk drives, for example).
Or maybe both. They may assemble a generic computer in China then customize
it here. Lots of speculation, very little facts about this. Or they may
assemble the high end here. Until we get a real Dell employee to say
otherwise, we're all just guessing.
| |
|
| On May 12, 8:27 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> "Tim Smith" <reply_in_gr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
>
>
> Or maybe both. They may assemble a generic computer in China then customize
> it here. Lots of speculation, very little facts about this. Or they may
> assemble the high end here. Until we get a real Dell employee to say
> otherwise, we're all just guessing.
The one thing that is certain is that Dell continues to refine/modify
its processes in response to very dynamic market forces, both on the
consumption and production side. What they had in mind when the
facilities were built 5 or more years ago is quite likely a light-year
away from what their current procurement/production/distribution
models are. And, what they may be 5 years down the road may bear
little resemblence to today's...
| |
|
| On May 11, 11:43 am, BobR <r...@r-a-reed-assoc.com> wrote:
> On May 11, 11:16 am, dpb <bozart...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I was talking with a plumbing company the other day who was also using
> Ryobi tools. Caught me by surprise that they would be using them
> since their load demand would far exceed mine. I ask them if they
> were happy with the tools and the quality. Their answer was that
> while the tools were not as good as say the Dewalt brand, their cost
> was so much lower that they could by three or four and still save
> money. Their experience had shown about 3/4 of the use at 1/4 of the
> cost. Still seems like a good value.
The cost ratio would seem high although could believe the use/
longevity might be roughly correct. Of course, one could get the cost
ratio to that point if comparing a K-Mart/Walmart-purchased homeowner
tool to a tool purchased at the plumbing distributorship.
Every business owner/contractor/etc. has to work out what is the most
cost-effective tool management program for their particular
situation. I know those who use the same "throw-away" scheme and
others who "buy best". In those instances, what is the difference
primarily of the ones I'm thinking of is the types of crews they have--
the "cheap but cheery" guy uses hourlies while the "pricey but strong"
guy has long-term employees. I hypothesize the labor and the personal
proclivities of the individuals has as much or more to do w/ the
longevity of the tool as the tool itself.
I simply compare how as an employer I have tools which I have owned/
used for in some cases 40 years that a particular hand has been able
to destroy (or nearly so) in a half-hour before it was rescued. Otoh,
others are also able to operate with impunity the same tool doing the
same job.
| |
| Chris Lewis 2007-05-15, 1:25 pm |
| According to dpb <bozarth.d@gmail.com>:
> _ALL_ I'm saying is there are still
> Milwaukee manufacturing facilities in the US in contrast to OP's
> apparent contention/belief that the TTI takeover meant cheap stuff of
> the same production line w/ Ryobi.
The point I was trying to make (perhaps not all that well) is that
even if the same company makes Milwaulkee and Ryobi, it doesn't
mean that the quality is the same. Regardless of plant location
or even production line.
Eg: MTD owns about 5 different lawn/garden tractor brands. Cub Cadet is
most definately not equivalent to "MTD branded" tractors.
Eg: Dewalt != B&D != Porter Cable != Delta. Yet, they're all B&D...
Nor should the location of the plants make any difference - the big
three north american automakers dismissed japanese automakers for
rather too long, and are still paying for it.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
| |
|
| On May 15, 11:10 am, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
> According to dpb <bozart...@gmail.com>:
>
>
> The point I was trying to make (perhaps not all that well) is that
> even if the same company makes Milwaulkee and Ryobi, it doesn't
> mean that the quality is the same. Regardless of plant location
> or even production line.
To me that goes w/o saying although I know that it isn't so for many.
In essence then, we're agreeing but I surely didn't get that message
from your previous posts--I certainly thought you were trying to make
a case that Milwaukee wasn't producing anything in the US. So, if I
misinterpreted, sorry, apparently I was also tilting at the wrong
windmill...
BTW, the answer to the question of where the 18V hammer drills were
_actually_ made is (surprising me) the Czech Republic. True for the
old one and the very recently acquired one both...
| |
| Chris Lewis 2007-05-15, 1:25 pm |
| According to dpb <bozarth.d@gmail.com>:
> On May 15, 11:10 am, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
>
> To me that goes w/o saying although I know that it isn't so for many.
> In essence then, we're agreeing but I surely didn't get that message
> from your previous posts--I certainly thought you were trying to make
> a case that Milwaukee wasn't producing anything in the US.
I was trying to make the case that it's not clear how much they're
manufacturing in the US, but it doesn't matter...
> So, if I
> misinterpreted, sorry, apparently I was also tilting at the wrong
> windmill...
It happens to all of us ;-)
> BTW, the answer to the question of where the 18V hammer drills were
> _actually_ made is (surprising me) the Czech Republic. True for the
> old one and the very recently acquired one both...
My father worked for a couple of years as a sales engineer for a
heavy industry manufacturing group based in Czechoslovakia,
_before_ the Soviet empire came apart, let alone before the Czech
and Slovak republics parted ways. Rock crushers, pumps in the
100+ HP class etc (for mining industry etc). "Won't win beauty or
engineering elegance prizes, but _tough_ and lasts forever".
Add a bit of engineering elegance and shift to retail, and you have
Milwaulkee ;-)
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
| |
|
| On May 9, 2:48 pm, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
> As with most consumer products, there really are only a few companies making
> them. There's often quite a difference between the brands. Other times,
> none at all.
Sometimes they're hybrids. I've bought some different brands of window
air conditioners in the past few years; it's obvious that the
mechanicals are all the same (probably LG), but the control panels are
all different; the LG one has old fashioned knobs, another one is
digital, another one is digital with a remote.
| |
|
| On May 10, 12:15 am, Jack <messier1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I may sound off on this one,
> Personally where the tool is manufactured weighs in little for me. As
> much as I would prefer to buy American or Canadian, (keep our boys
> working) QUALITY will be my sole decider. I know China has meant, and
> in some cases still means cheap crap and deeper still human rights
> issues, etc. But the world is headed in that direction. And better and
> better stuff keeps coming from that manufacturing juggernaut know as
> cheap labor China. Often they are our companies, exploiting the labor
> cost difference. Anyway that said, I have been a BOSCH fan for years.
> I've recently been displeased with a few of their newer tools, but the
> Mitre Box for example, well... IMHO ,I dont think theres a better one
> on earth at any price point. I love mine.
Well, you don't have to be too old to remember when 'made in Japan'
was a synonym for piece of crap. That period went by pretty quickly,
in retrospect.
| |
|
| On May 15, 1:12 pm, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
> According to dpb <bozart...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I was trying to make the case that it's not clear how much they're
> manufacturing in the US, but it doesn't matter...
>
>
> It happens to all of us ;-)
>
>
> My father worked for a couple of years as a sales engineer for a
> heavy industry manufacturing group based in Czechoslovakia,
> _before_ the Soviet empire came apart, let alone before the Czech
> and Slovak republics parted ways. Rock crushers, pumps in the
> 100+ HP class etc (for mining industry etc). "Won't win beauty or
> engineering elegance prizes, but _tough_ and lasts forever".
Yes...in a former life I worked with a line of ash and elemental
analyzers for online monitoring of coal. A fair amount of the heavy
gear in the prep plants was of East European origin...
> Add a bit of engineering elegance and shift to retail, and you have
> Milwaulkee ;-)
What surprised me was that one has become conditioned to offshore
cheap manufacturing to mean SE Asia or, maybe, Mexico for those who
jumped on the NAFTA bandwagon. That eastern bloc countries are for
the most part also still in the cheap labor camp has pretty much
fallen of the radar screen...
I thought it interesting that the decision had been made and the
location selected obviously long before the takeover. My _really_ old
red gear is, of course, labelled USA, but that's going back 50 years
to most of it. I hadn't had any need for buying something I didn't
already have for quite a long time and came to the high power battery
drill _very_ late in the game so didn't have anything of intermediate
age to try to compare with...
BTW, "Milwaukee" has only one (1) "L"...
--
| |
| Chris Lewis 2007-05-15, 5:25 pm |
| According to z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net>:
> On May 10, 12:15 am, Jack <messier1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, you don't have to be too old to remember when 'made in Japan'
> was a synonym for piece of crap. That period went by pretty quickly,
> in retrospect.
Agreed. The shift is well on the way with Taiwan and Korea now, and
it _will_ happen with China too. The end result being high wages and
a certain amount of stagnation/regrouping as they meet or exceed
where we are now (in wages, QoL, prices etc). Question is whether our
economies will survive the phenomena with China, or instead, whether
it's our turn next.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
| |
|
| On May 15, 2:45 pm, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
> According to z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Agreed. The shift is well on the way with Taiwan and Korea now, and
> it _will_ happen with China too. The end result being high wages and
> a certain amount of stagnation/regrouping as they meet or exceed
> where we are now (in wages, QoL, prices etc). Question is whether our
> economies will survive the phenomena with China, or instead, whether
> it's our turn next.
>
Of course our economies are going to get clobbered. The only thing
keeping our salaries and benefits and way of life as high as they are
is geographic isolation; the money is over here not over there, we are
over here, therefore we have more money. Thanks to modern
communications and transportation, that isolation is greatly reduced.
Eventually things will stabilize, but we're not going to live long
enough to see that period. In the meantime, it's going to be a bumpy
ride. Like when the industrial revolution displaced agriculture, or
when mechanization replaced hand labor.
| |
| Chris Lewis 2007-05-16, 5:25 pm |
| According to dpb <bozarth.d@gmail.com>:
> On May 15, 1:12 pm, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
[color=darkred]
> What surprised me was that one has become conditioned to offshore
> cheap manufacturing to mean SE Asia or, maybe, Mexico for those who
> jumped on the NAFTA bandwagon. That eastern bloc countries are for
> the most part also still in the cheap labor camp has pretty much
> fallen of the radar screen...
The underlying issue on the "radar screen" front is the US bleedout
on trade. The US had a $725.8 billion trade deficit in
2005 (>$200B with China alone, ~$70B with Canada). That's US dollars
going over "there" (and some "here", to reference the other followup
to my posting ;-)
[Canada had a $55B total trade surplus in 2005. Last time the US had a
trade surplus was in 1975.]
I wouldn't include the Czech Republic in the cheap labor camp. It's
advantage comes from a long history of industrialization, good
education, and relative stability (compared to many other eastern
bloc countries). The standard of living there has been pretty
comfortable for several decades, and wages are moderately high
compared to other places in the eastern bloc.
The parts of Czechoslovakia that _didn't_ have as much of that
went off on its own (relatively peacefully!).
With the Czech Republic, it's a shift of manufacturing with
good education, infrastructure etc backing it up. Not _new_
manufacturing and all of the long-term education/infrastructure
buildup that needs.
Yugoslavia had the same potential advantages, but the "going off
on their own" bit was hardly peaceful and set them back decades.
Tho there are sectors still doing well.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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| Chris Lewis 2007-05-16, 5:25 pm |
| According to z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net>:
> Of course our economies are going to get clobbered. The only thing
> keeping our salaries and benefits and way of life as high as they are
> is geographic isolation; the money is over here not over there, we are
> over here, therefore we have more money.
Given that the US trade deficit in 2005 was $728B and is still
increasing, you seem to be doing your best to move it over "there" :-(
It'll stabilize, but it'll be bumpy getting there, and I have my
doubts whether you're going to be happy with the stabilized level.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
| |
| me@privacy.net 2007-05-16, 5:25 pm |
| clewis@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
>Given that the US trade deficit in 2005 was $728B and is still
>increasing, you seem to be doing your best to move it over "there" :-(
>
>It'll stabilize, but it'll be bumpy getting there, and I have my
>doubts whether you're going to be happy with the stabilized level.
so what do you sees as the ending?
what's is the inevitable and how do we as Americans
"prepare" for it?
I see a lowering of the quality of life... but am
puzzled as to how to prepare for the tsunami of change
coming at us
| |
|
| On May 16, 3:04 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
>
>
> so what do you sees as the ending?
>
> what's is the inevitable and how do we as Americans
> "prepare" for it?
>
> I see a lowering of the quality of life... but am
> puzzled as to how to prepare for the tsunami of change
> coming at us
I wouldn't bet too heavily on the middle class surviving. After all,
it's a recent feature of human society, which for most of history, and
over much of the globe today, has been more sharply divided into haves
and havenots. Now we have the ability to do so, globally. As Friedman
says with his "flat earth"; once upon a time, a poor person in the US
or Europe was better off than a pretty well to do person in the third
world. that's not true any longer.
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| me@privacy.net 2007-05-17, 5:25 pm |
| z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote:
>I wouldn't bet too heavily on the middle class surviving. After all,
>it's a recent feature of human society, which for most of history, and
>over much of the globe today, has been more sharply divided into haves
>and havenots. Now we have the ability to do so, globally. As Friedman
>says with his "flat earth"; once upon a time, a poor person in the US
>or Europe was better off than a pretty well to do person in the third
>world. that's not true any longer.
wow.... very profound info!!
thanks!!!
I didn't realize that the middle class was a recent
phenomenon in the world..... but now that you say
so...it does make sense
and.... it also makes sense that we can now flatten the
world globally and a poor person in the US may NOT be
better off then some poor person in a third world
country anymore
VERY scary stuff
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| clifto 2007-05-18, 3:25 am |
| dpb wrote:
> BTW, "Milwaukee" has only one (1) "L"...
Supposedly, so does Chicago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_'L'
--
It's funny how quickly liberal atheists can develop a belief in hell
when someone they hate dies.
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