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Did I Get Screwed By an Incompetent Roofer? Need Advice
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| I just had my house reroofed yesterday. It already had two layers of
shingles on it. So, it was necessary to remove all of the old asphalt
shingles before putting the new ones on. I have given the contractor
about half of the money as a deposit, but I haven't given him the
other half yet. The two issues I have with the job he did are:
1. He roofed right over the swamp cooler legs instead of removing the
legs and then putting the roofing underneath them. Now I have little
teepee like or vulcano shaped mounds made out of bent shingles going
up around the legs along with gobs of some sort of roofing sealer
plastered all around legs. When the day comes that I have to replace
the swamp cooler, I'm obviously going to have to tear off part of the
shingles and then do some sort of a repair job. He also did the same
thing with my satellite dish antenna. So, I'm never going to be able
to get it off either without tearing off some shingles, etc.
2. Removing the Shingles made a helluva mess in my yard. I did raise a
lot of Cain with those guys before they left in order to get most of
it picked up, but there is still some left and there are also pieces
of shingles in the rain gutters. The normal method of cleaning up was
obviously to use a rake and then any pieces that weren't picked up by
the rake were left for the homeowner. The problem is that this leaves
one helluva a lot of asphalt shingle pieces in my yard that range in
size from a dime to a dollar and even larger. In addition, there's no
way to be sure that all of the nails have been picked up. So, you
never know for sure if a child, for instance, could wind up with a
nail in his foot someday.
My two questions are, do I have legitimate complaints about the
workmanship and even if the roofer lifts the legs of the swamp cooler
and takes the antenna off and does it right will the patchwork repair
job he does on the shingles be acceptable?
| |
| Joseph Meehan 2007-06-03, 1:25 pm |
| mg wrote:
> I just had my house reroofed yesterday. It already had two layers of
> shingles on it. So, it was necessary to remove all of the old asphalt
> shingles before putting the new ones on. I have given the contractor
> about half of the money as a deposit, but I haven't given him the
> other half yet. The two issues I have with the job he did are:
>
> 1. He roofed right over the swamp cooler legs instead of removing the
> legs and then putting the roofing underneath them. Now I have little
> teepee like or vulcano shaped mounds made out of bent shingles going
> up around the legs along with gobs of some sort of roofing sealer
> plastered all around legs. When the day comes that I have to replace
> the swamp cooler, I'm obviously going to have to tear off part of the
> shingles and then do some sort of a repair job. He also did the same
> thing with my satellite dish antenna. So, I'm never going to be able
> to get it off either without tearing off some shingles, etc.
>
> 2. Removing the Shingles made a helluva mess in my yard. I did raise a
> lot of Cain with those guys before they left in order to get most of
> it picked up, but there is still some left and there are also pieces
> of shingles in the rain gutters. The normal method of cleaning up was
> obviously to use a rake and then any pieces that weren't picked up by
> the rake were left for the homeowner. The problem is that this leaves
> one helluva a lot of asphalt shingle pieces in my yard that range in
> size from a dime to a dollar and even larger. In addition, there's no
> way to be sure that all of the nails have been picked up. So, you
> never know for sure if a child, for instance, could wind up with a
> nail in his foot someday.
>
> My two questions are, do I have legitimate complaints about the
> workmanship and even if the roofer lifts the legs of the swamp cooler
> and takes the antenna off and does it right will the patchwork repair
> job he does on the shingles be acceptable?
Cleanup is a matter of degree. Any roof job is going to leave a few
pieces of old and new roof as well as a number of nails around. It is just
part of that kind of work. It sounds like yours was worse than it should
have been. As for the swamp cooler, I really don't know what good practice
is for that kind of issue. I have never had a house that had that kind of
problem.
I suggest you start by reviewing any kind of contract you may have
signed or they may have given you. See what it says.
--
Joseph Meehan
Dia 's Muire duit
| |
| marson 2007-06-03, 1:25 pm |
| On Jun 3, 11:34 am, "Joseph Meehan" <sligoNoSPAM...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> mg wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Cleanup is a matter of degree. Any roof job is going to leave a few
> pieces of old and new roof as well as a number of nails around. It is just
> part of that kind of work. It sounds like yours was worse than it should
> have been. As for the swamp cooler, I really don't know what good practice
> is for that kind of issue. I have never had a house that had that kind of
> problem.
>
> I suggest you start by reviewing any kind of contract you may have
> signed or they may have given you. See what it says.
>
> --
> Joseph Meehan
>
> Dia 's Muire duit
As far as cleanup goes, most roofers in these parts will lay a tarp on
the lawn below the roof. This is a better-faster-cheaper way to deal
with tear off mess.
Just running the shingles up the legs of the swamp cooler sounds
shoddy to me. I guess in hindsight you should have asked him how he
would deal with it. I would certainly think the best way would be to
get the new shingles under the legs, but I'm not familiar with them so
can't say what the standard practice is.
| |
| RicodJour 2007-06-03, 1:25 pm |
| On Jun 3, 12:24 pm, mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just had my house reroofed yesterday. It already had two layers of
> shingles on it. So, it was necessary to remove all of the old asphalt
> shingles before putting the new ones on. I have given the contractor
> about half of the money as a deposit, but I haven't given him the
> other half yet. The two issues I have with the job he did are:
>
> 1. He roofed right over the swamp cooler legs instead of removing the
> legs and then putting the roofing underneath them. Now I have little
> teepee like or vulcano shaped mounds made out of bent shingles going
> up around the legs along with gobs of some sort of roofing sealer
> plastered all around legs. When the day comes that I have to replace
> the swamp cooler, I'm obviously going to have to tear off part of the
> shingles and then do some sort of a repair job. He also did the same
> thing with my satellite dish antenna. So, I'm never going to be able
> to get it off either without tearing off some shingles, etc.
>
> 2. Removing the Shingles made a helluva mess in my yard. I did raise a
> lot of Cain with those guys before they left in order to get most of
> it picked up, but there is still some left and there are also pieces
> of shingles in the rain gutters. The normal method of cleaning up was
> obviously to use a rake and then any pieces that weren't picked up by
> the rake were left for the homeowner. The problem is that this leaves
> one helluva a lot of asphalt shingle pieces in my yard that range in
> size from a dime to a dollar and even larger. In addition, there's no
> way to be sure that all of the nails have been picked up. So, you
> never know for sure if a child, for instance, could wind up with a
> nail in his foot someday.
>
> My two questions are, do I have legitimate complaints about the
> workmanship and even if the roofer lifts the legs of the swamp cooler
> and takes the antenna off and does it right will the patchwork repair
> job he does on the shingles be acceptable?
The cleanup should be more thorough. Ask them to do a better job and
to have them use a magnetic broom (basically a long magnet on wheels),
that will pick up any stray nails and keep your lawn mower from
hurling projectiles and chewing up the blades.
Your other point is not a valid one. You do _not_ want a roofer
disconnecting equipment. Nothing good would ever come of that. If
you wanted the shingles under the equipment it was your responsibility
to contact the appropriate people for that sort of work and have it
completed before the roofer arrived.
Ripping off a few shingles to expose the connections when you do
eventually need to replace that stuff, is no big deal. Rather
trivial, actually.
R
| |
|
|
"marson" <briankontio@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180889659.988216.122020@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 3, 11:34 am, "Joseph Meehan" <sligoNoSPAM...@hotmail.com>
>
-- Content clipped --
> Just running the shingles up the legs of the swamp cooler sounds
> shoddy to me. I guess in hindsight you should have asked him how he
> would deal with it. I would certainly think the best way would be to
> get the new shingles under the legs, but I'm not familiar with them so
> can't say what the standard practice is.
>
On my recent reroof job the contractor jacked up the air conditioner support
frame sufficiently to shingle under the mounting. I would expect that this
is the normal and preferred practice.
SJF
| |
| Larry Caldwell 2007-06-03, 5:25 pm |
| In article <1180890846.891017.147590@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
ricodjour@worldemail.com (RicodJour) says...
> Your other point is not a valid one. You do _not_ want a roofer
> disconnecting equipment. Nothing good would ever come of that. If
> you wanted the shingles under the equipment it was your responsibility
> to contact the appropriate people for that sort of work and have it
> completed before the roofer arrived.
Yeah, what he said! A roofer is a roofer. He's sure not going to re-aim
your satellite dish or repair your swamp cooler if it springs a leak.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
| |
| Lawrence 2007-06-03, 5:25 pm |
| > My two questions are, do I have legitimate complaints about the
> workmanship and even if the roofer lifts the legs of the swamp cooler
> and takes the antenna off and does it right will the patchwork repair
> job he does on the shingles be acceptable?
The cleanup should have been better from what you describe. It is
impossible to contain every scrap of shingle and nail when you do a
tear off even with tarps but a good faith effort is expected.
So far as the cooler and antennae are concerned, it should have been
moved before roofing but no way is that the responsiblilty of the
roofer to remove your equipment unless specifically requested.
The roofer may show up on the job not knowing exactly what to
expect. The person who bid your job may not be on the crew.
Typcially they just do the job and leave without even interacting with
the homeowner.
>From the roofers perspective, if you don't move it and they are not
paid to move it then they have no choice but to work around it. They
don't have time to stop to ask you or anyone else why it hasn't been
moved. So, it you don't move it then you have to have it in the
contract if you want the roofers to move it.
An acceptable patch can be made in both cases, no problem. It should
be just as good as new when patched. I do not think you can hold the
roofers responsible for this extra work unless it was in the original
contact.
| |
|
|
What did your contract say about cleanup and swamp coolers?
Sure, I know, you didn't go to the trouble of getting one. You
should have. The job he bid was exactly as he thought it was.
Unfortunately, you didn't do your homework. Shame on you.
On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 09:24:24 -0700, mg <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I just had my house reroofed yesterday. It already had two layers of
>shingles on it. So, it was necessary to remove all of the old asphalt
>shingles before putting the new ones on. I have given the contractor
>about half of the money as a deposit, but I haven't given him the
>other half yet. The two issues I have with the job he did are:
>
>1. He roofed right over the swamp cooler legs instead of removing the
>legs and then putting the roofing underneath them. Now I have little
>teepee like or vulcano shaped mounds made out of bent shingles going
>up around the legs along with gobs of some sort of roofing sealer
>plastered all around legs. When the day comes that I have to replace
>the swamp cooler, I'm obviously going to have to tear off part of the
>shingles and then do some sort of a repair job. He also did the same
>thing with my satellite dish antenna. So, I'm never going to be able
>to get it off either without tearing off some shingles, etc.
>
>2. Removing the Shingles made a helluva mess in my yard. I did raise a
>lot of Cain with those guys before they left in order to get most of
>it picked up, but there is still some left and there are also pieces
>of shingles in the rain gutters. The normal method of cleaning up was
>obviously to use a rake and then any pieces that weren't picked up by
>the rake were left for the homeowner. The problem is that this leaves
>one helluva a lot of asphalt shingle pieces in my yard that range in
>size from a dime to a dollar and even larger. In addition, there's no
>way to be sure that all of the nails have been picked up. So, you
>never know for sure if a child, for instance, could wind up with a
>nail in his foot someday.
>
>My two questions are, do I have legitimate complaints about the
>workmanship and even if the roofer lifts the legs of the swamp cooler
>and takes the antenna off and does it right will the patchwork repair
>job he does on the shingles be acceptable?
| |
| Joseph Meehan 2007-06-03, 5:25 pm |
| marson wrote:
...
>
> As far as cleanup goes, most roofers in these parts will lay a tarp on
> the lawn below the roof. This is a better-faster-cheaper way to deal
> with tear off mess.
>
That is the way my recent hail damage re-roof was done, but it does not
totally eliminate clean up or offer 100% The guys who did the job were
careful. They also did a after removing the taps clean up and followed up
with an industrial magnet to catch additional nails, but even with all that
there were a few nails and scraps left behind. I might add that the gutters
were clean when they left, but a few days and rains later, they had some
scraps and nails in them.
I agree that good workmanship means it should be clean when they are
done, and I consider what that crew did was clean when they finished. As my
uncle always said, "Only God is perfect." He of course never tried to be
God. :-)
--
Joseph Meehan
Dia 's Muire duit
| |
| Jim Redelfs 2007-06-03, 5:25 pm |
| In article <1180890846.891017.147590@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
> You do _not_ want a roofer disconnecting equipment.
> Nothing good would ever come of that.
I agree. They are roofers, not swamp cooler technicians.
Done "properly" (to your specs), you have have to hire a swamp cooler
technician to REMOVE the swamp cooler. Then the roofer would do his job.
Then the swamp cooler guy would return and REinstall the machine.
Done this way, the roofing job price would go up like your cable TV bill.
As for the mess, I suspect the OP got as good a clean-up as he'll get after
having complained about it.
We had a HORRENDOUS hail storm 10 years ago. Baseball size. (no joke) I
retrieved a couple "stones" from my bathtub as they came right through the
skylight.
Hordes of "roofing gypsies" descended on our community, leaving in their wake
all manner of workmanship ranging from good to total trash.
I waited a year before our LOCAL (well reputed) roofer got to my house while
virtually everyone else on my block had theirs done by traveling roofers.
My original, 7-year-old roof was torn off and replaced by this craftsman while
we were away on a week's vacation.
The old man from across the street came over to compliment my job. He
observed that I got a MUCH better job than he did and that the clean-up after
my job was MUCH better than what he had gotten.
Indeed: I probably found no more than 3-4 nails and a couple
50-cent-piece-size chunks of shingle at the end of my downspouts after the
next, hard rain.
--
JR
No project too small
All projects too big
| |
|
| On Jun 3, 10:54 am, marson <briankon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 3, 11:34 am, "Joseph Meehan" <sligoNoSPAM...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As far as cleanup goes, most roofers in these parts will lay a tarp on
> the lawn below the roof. This is a better-faster-cheaper way to deal
> with tear off mess.
After I seen the difficulty involved with trying to clean up pieces
the size of a dollar and smaller and the problem with the nails, that
was the first question that came to mind. Why didn't they use a tarp
of some kind? It would certainly take less time to lay the tarp down
and pick it up again, than it would to do a half-way decent job
cleaning the area by hand.
> Just running the shingles up the legs of the swamp cooler sounds
> shoddy to me. I guess in hindsight you should have asked him how he
> would deal with it. I would certainly think the best way would be to
> get the new shingles under the legs, but I'm not familiar with them so
> can't say what the standard practice is.
| |
|
| On Jun 3, 1:05 pm, Lawrence <lwha...@paulbunyan.net> wrote:
>
> The cleanup should have been better from what you describe. It is
> impossible to contain every scrap of shingle and nail when you do a
> tear off even with tarps but a good faith effort is expected.
>
> So far as the cooler and antennae are concerned, it should have been
> moved before roofing but no way is that the responsiblilty of the
> roofer to remove your equipment unless specifically requested.
>
> The roofer may show up on the job not knowing exactly what to
> expect. The person who bid your job may not be on the crew.
> Typcially they just do the job and leave without even interacting with
> the homeowner.
>
>
> paid to move it then they have no choice but to work around it. They
> don't have time to stop to ask you or anyone else why it hasn't been
> moved. So, it you don't move it then you have to have it in the
> contract if you want the roofers to move it.
>
> An acceptable patch can be made in both cases, no problem. It should
> be just as good as new when patched. I do not think you can hold the
> roofers responsible for this extra work unless it was in the original
> contact.
I'm definitely guilty of not getting the situation with the swamp
cooler and dish antenna written into the contract. However, I did have
the house reroofed in mid-80s and that contractor did put the roofing
underneath the legs of the swamp cooler. So, unfortunately, I assumed
it was standard practice.
I actually did ask the contractor about the DirecTV antenna since I
have one of the new type that is very difficult to aim. He told me
that wouldn't be a problem since the roofers would put the mounting
plate back in exactly the same holes. Unfortunately, I only got that
verbally and didn't get it in the contract. Even if he had told me,
though, that I would have to remove the antenna, that would have been
OK. I can hire a guy to tune the antenna back in for about $25. Or, I
can do it myself. The roofing job costs $4500.00. So 25 bucks wouldn't
bother me any.
Swamp coolers sit on top of a large sheet-metal duck (18" x 18" I
think) and the legs are there mostly just to offer additional support.
I've actually seen swamp coolers sitting on roofs with no legs at all.
The 4 legs are connected to the corners of the swamp cooler with 2
sheet metal screws. It would be an extremely simple matter to remove
these legs one or two at a time and roof under them and then put them
back on. Swamp coolers are extremely common in my area. It's hard for
me to imagine that roofers are going around the state roofing over the
legs of swamp coolers when they are so easy to remove. Actually, it's
probably a lot easier to remove the legs than it is to roof around
them.
It's good to know that it's not that difficult to do a patch. Maybe
I'll hire someone to do that or perhaps I can do it myself even though
I don't have a clue as to how it's done. It does seem sort of
difficult to me, though. My inclination would be to lay the new
shingles over the top of the old ones and then put a lot of patch
repair stuff around the edges. The situation seems really kludgy to
me, especially after just paying $4500 for a new, 30-year roof.
| |
|
| On Jun 3, 2:46 pm, Jim Redelfs <jim.rede...@NOSPAMredelfs.com> wrote:
> In article <1180890846.891017.147...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
>
> RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree. They are roofers, not swamp cooler technicians.
>
> Done "properly" (to your specs), you have have to hire a swamp cooler
> technician to REMOVE the swamp cooler. snip
Swamp cooler "technician"? They're not rocket science, or even
refrigeration units, for that matter. Tom
| |
|
| On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:24:41 -0700, tom <tomeshew@msn.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 2:46 pm, Jim Redelfs <jim.rede...@NOSPAMredelfs.com> wrote:
>
>Swamp cooler "technician"? They're not rocket science, or even
>refrigeration units, for that matter. Tom
A CSCT. A Certified Swamp Cooler Technician.
| |
|
| On Jun 3, 9:32 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:24:41 -0700, tom <tomes...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> A CSCT. A Certified Swamp Cooler Technician.
>
>
Emoticons do allow for some sarcasm, don't they? Tom
| |
| John Ross 2007-06-04, 9:25 am |
|
mg wrote:
> I just had my house reroofed yesterday. It already had two layers of
> shingles on it. So, it was necessary to remove all of the old asphalt
> shingles before putting the new ones on. I have given the contractor
> about half of the money as a deposit, but I haven't given him the
> other half yet. The two issues I have with the job he did are:
>
> 1. He roofed right over the swamp cooler legs instead of removing the
> legs and then putting the roofing underneath them. Now I have little
> teepee like or vulcano shaped mounds made out of bent shingles going
> up around the legs along with gobs of some sort of roofing sealer
> plastered all around legs. When the day comes that I have to replace
> the swamp cooler, I'm obviously going to have to tear off part of the
> shingles and then do some sort of a repair job. He also did the same
> thing with my satellite dish antenna. So, I'm never going to be able
> to get it off either without tearing off some shingles, etc.
>
> 2. Removing the Shingles made a helluva mess in my yard. I did raise a
> lot of Cain with those guys before they left in order to get most of
> it picked up, but there is still some left and there are also pieces
> of shingles in the rain gutters. The normal method of cleaning up was
> obviously to use a rake and then any pieces that weren't picked up by
> the rake were left for the homeowner. The problem is that this leaves
> one helluva a lot of asphalt shingle pieces in my yard that range in
> size from a dime to a dollar and even larger. In addition, there's no
> way to be sure that all of the nails have been picked up. So, you
> never know for sure if a child, for instance, could wind up with a
> nail in his foot someday.
>
> My two questions are, do I have legitimate complaints about the
> workmanship and even if the roofer lifts the legs of the swamp cooler
> and takes the antenna off and does it right will the patchwork repair
> job he does on the shingles be acceptable?
I found it interesting reading the posts from people saying "he's a
roofer, not a swamp cooler installer." I think this illustrates the
differences in the way things are done in different parts of the
country. I'll bet those posters live in the east where you have your
heating and cooling in your basement.
Out in the west, it is very common (until recently) to have the AC and
heater or swamp cooler on the roof. It is also not only common, but
CODE to have the roofer lift the legs of the units and put the
shingles under them and then put some tar around the legs. This is the
normal and legal practice!
To the OP: Is a 50 percent deposit even legal in your state? Where I
live a contractor can't take more than 10 percent for a deposit. Was
he even a licensed contractor?
Second, did it pass city inspection? He did pull a permit, right?
Don't pay anything until the inspection and ask the inspector about
the cooler. You definitely got a bad job, it's just a matter of if it
was not done to code and he will have to fix it.
Whatever happens, given the obvious lack of attention to detail by
this guy, I would get a reputable roofer to come out and do an
inspection to see if he thinks there is anything that is going to
cause big problems. This shouldn't cost more than 100 bucks and is
well worth it after dealing with bozos like you did (I had a similar
situation and had to do the same thing).
--
John
| |
| Lawrence 2007-06-04, 9:25 am |
|
>
> I'm definitely guilty of not getting the situation with the swamp
> cooler and dish antenna written into the contract. However, I did have
> the house reroofed in mid-80s and that contractor did put the roofing
> underneath the legs of the swamp cooler. So, unfortunately, I assumed
> it was standard practice.
I will agree that a thoughful contractor would have either assumed it
would have to be removed or at least put it in the contract for you.
Some are very nervous about having a bid that's low enough to keep the
crew working, that's the problem. Those items add to the cost, not by
much but enough to make the bidder nervous. He's thinking, if I don't
mention it or itemize it on the bid then I have a better chance of
winning the job. Then when the guys get on the site they haven't been
told one way or the other.
>
> Swamp coolers are extremely common in my area. It's hard for
> me to imagine that roofers are going around the state roofing over the
> legs of swamp coolers when they are so easy to remove. Actually, it's
> probably a lot easier to remove the legs than it is to roof around
> them.
Agreed. A roofer only needs a few tools and just may not be prepared
for that job even if it is easy it requires a few tools anyway.
>
> It's good to know that it's not that difficult to do a patch. Maybe
> I'll hire someone to do that or perhaps I can do it myself even though
> I don't have a clue as to how it's done. It does seem sort of
> difficult to me, though. My inclination would be to lay the new
> shingles over the top of the old ones and then put a lot of patch
> repair stuff around the edges. The situation seems really kludgy to
> me, especially after just paying $4500 for a new, 30-year roof.-
Absolutely, you have every right to be dissapointed. Your contactor
should have made sure it was in the contract and that arrangments were
made. But, if you signed the contract then part of the responsiblity
is also yours. You can eventually be happy it will just require more
energy from you, a bummer I know.
Patching is easy since the nails can be removed from the surrounding
shingles by slipping a flat bar underneath. Then new shingles can be
slipped in and nailed. No roofing cement should be needed. You do
need a real roofer to do it if you don't have the confidence. You
should be able find someone who has the smarts to both remove the
equiment and also to make the patch.
| |
|
| On Jun 4, 6:12 am, John Ross <pdr3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> mg wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I found it interesting reading the posts from people saying "he's a
> roofer, not a swamp cooler installer." I think this illustrates the
> differences in the way things are done in different parts of the
> country. I'll bet those posters live in the east where you have your
> heating and cooling in your basement.
>
> Out in the west, it is very common (until recently) to have the AC and
> heater or swamp cooler on the roof. It is also not only common, but
> CODE to have the roofer lift the legs of the units and put the
> shingles under them and then put some tar around the legs. This is the
> normal and legal practice!
>
> To the OP: Is a 50 percent deposit even legal in your state? Where I
> live a contractor can't take more than 10 percent for a deposit. Was
> he even a licensed contractor?
>
> Second, did it pass city inspection? He did pull a permit, right?
> Don't pay anything until the inspection and ask the inspector about
> the cooler. You definitely got a bad job, it's just a matter of if it
> was not done to code and he will have to fix it.
>
> Whatever happens, given the obvious lack of attention to detail by
> this guy, I would get a reputable roofer to come out and do an
> inspection to see if he thinks there is anything that is going to
> cause big problems. This shouldn't cost more than 100 bucks and is
> well worth it after dealing with bozos like you did (I had a similar
> situation and had to do the same thing).
>
> --
> John-
Wow! Thanks for all the great information John. With all the ideas you
suggest, I have a feeling I'm going to win this one. I'll let you
know. I did wonder if some of those other posters were from a
different part of the country and really didn't understand the
situation.
| |
| RicodJour 2007-06-04, 1:25 pm |
| On Jun 4, 8:12 am, John Ross <pdr3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I found it interesting reading the posts from people saying "he's a
> roofer, not a swamp cooler installer." I think this illustrates the
> differences in the way things are done in different parts of the
> country. I'll bet those posters live in the east where you have your
> heating and cooling in your basement.
I've traveled and worked around the country, and I'm familiar with
swamp coolers and roof mount antennae of various sorts. It's not a
technical question, it's a liability question. Even if the work is
fairly simple, an owner would be shooting themselves in the foot to
have untrained people messing with the equipment. A contractor
receives no benefit, and exposes themselves to substantially increased
liability by touching other systems.
Whether they were the owner's or the contractor's, the assumptions
caused the trouble. The OP assumed one thing and the contractor
assumed another. There's plenty of blame to go around.
> Out in the west, it is very common (until recently) to have the AC and
> heater or swamp cooler on the roof. It is also not only common, but
> CODE to have the roofer lift the legs of the units and put the
> shingles under them and then put some tar around the legs. This is the
> normal and legal practice!
A code violation is not "illegal". It's a code violation. I'm also
passably proficient in the major codes, considering that I work with
them daily, and know of no requirement that specifies in detail how
flashing is to be installed with regards to rooftop structures.
Please cite the code you are referring to.
> To the OP: Is a 50 percent deposit even legal in your state? Where I
> live a contractor can't take more than 10 percent for a deposit. Was
> he even a licensed contractor?
>
> Second, did it pass city inspection? He did pull a permit, right?
The majority of the country does not require permits for reroofing
work. The following is fairly typical:
When Do I Need a Building Permit?
Common Procedures that Require a Building Permit:
Above & Below Ground Swimming Pools
Oil & Gas Heating Units and Tanks
Contractor Licensing
Plumbing
Decks & Patios
Public Assembly
Demolition of Structures
Radio & Television Disk Antennas
Fences
Rental Permit
Fireplaces & Chimneys
Retaining Walls
Hot Tubs
Signs
Large Tool Sheds
Temporary Structure
Lawn Sprinkler Systems
Tennis Courts
New Additions & Interior Alterations
Tree Removal
New Homes & Buildings
Use Permit
> Don't pay anything until the inspection and ask the inspector about
> the cooler. You definitely got a bad job, it's just a matter of if it
> was not done to code and he will have to fix it.
Again, you're assuming a permit and inspections. If the roofer or OP
had pulled a permit, and the work was indeed against the still-to-be-
cited code, then the work would have been flagged, and the OP wouldn't
be writing about the cooler's legs. It's probably safe to assume that
no permit was pulled.
> Whatever happens, given the obvious lack of attention to detail by
> this guy, I would get a reputable roofer to come out and do an
> inspection to see if he thinks there is anything that is going to
> cause big problems. This shouldn't cost more than 100 bucks and is
> well worth it after dealing with bozos like you did (I had a similar
> situation and had to do the same thing).
What exactly will that accomplish? The only time that an independent
report would be of use is if the OP decided to sue and an
unknowledgeable person, like a judge, needed an expert's report to
hang their hat on. For the amount of money we're talking about, it's
extremely unlikely that a lawsuit will come out of this.
R
| |
| Lawrence 2007-06-05, 3:25 am |
| On Jun 4, 9:02 am, mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 6:12 am, John Ross <pdr3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow! Thanks for all the great information John. With all the ideas you
> suggest, I have a feeling I'm going to win this one. I'll let you
> know. I did wonder if some of those other posters were from a
> different part of the country and really didn't understand the
> situation.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I admit it. I have never had a house with any equiment like that on
the roof. Swamp coolers would not be common in MN except to cool
livestock barns during our short but intense summers. I know what
they are like though.
We had a window unit when I was a kid. We lived down south. From what
I know they are essentially cool water misted or dripped over or in
front of a fan. They cool the space but would add a lot of moisture
to what already may be very humid air, depending on your climate.
They are cheap to run though, esp compared to A/C! But as soon as we
had the money, I remember, we got an A/C.
I also admit I am surprised you have a swamp cooler and didn't think
they were common anymore in residential situations. In what general
part of the world are you in? Are swamp coolers common there? Do
other houses in your neighborhood have swamp coolers on the roof?
Never have I seen a swamp cooler in a Minnesota home. In houses up
north, mechanicals like air conditioners will have the compressor
outside, from what I know. Other type of mechanicals are either in a
basement or in a room or closet designed for that purpose. Lots of
people have window units for the dog days. I suppose it all means
that I could have been wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
It doesn't change the situation however. You still need to have the
roof fixed properly under any scenario esp considering it is brand
new. In your case, I think that means hiring someone to come and fix
it. Everthing you have described is fixable so don't get too bent out
of shape. If yu ever have that house roofed again you will know not
to hire them guys and to ask about it with whomever you hire.
| |
| RicodJour 2007-06-05, 3:25 am |
| On Jun 4, 10:44 pm, Lawrence <lwha...@paulbunyan.net> wrote:
>
> It doesn't change the situation however. You still need to have the
> roof fixed properly under any scenario esp considering it is brand
> new. In your case, I think that means hiring someone to come and fix
> it. Everthing you have described is fixable so don't get too bent out
> of shape. If yu ever have that house roofed again you will know not
> to hire them guys and to ask about it with whomever you hire.
Right. It's been a learning experience, and those are seldom free.
R
| |
|
| On Jun 4, 6:12 am, John Ross <pdr3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> mg wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I found it interesting reading the posts from people saying "he's a
> roofer, not a swamp cooler installer." I think this illustrates the
> differences in the way things are done in different parts of the
> country. I'll bet those posters live in the east where you have your
> heating and cooling in your basement.
>
> Out in the west, it is very common (until recently) to have the AC and
> heater or swamp cooler on the roof. It is also not only common, but
> CODE to have the roofer lift the legs of the units and put the
> shingles under them and then put some tar around the legs. This is the
> normal and legal practice!
>
> To the OP: Is a 50 percent deposit even legal in your state? Where I
> live a contractor can't take more than 10 percent for a deposit. Was
> he even a licensed contractor?
>
> Second, did it pass city inspection? He did pull a permit, right?
> Don't pay anything until the inspection and ask the inspector about
> the cooler. You definitely got a bad job, it's just a matter of if it
> was not done to code and he will have to fix it.
>
> Whatever happens, given the obvious lack of attention to detail by
> this guy, I would get a reputable roofer to come out and do an
> inspection to see if he thinks there is anything that is going to
> cause big problems. This shouldn't cost more than 100 bucks and is
> well worth it after dealing with bozos like you did (I had a similar
> situation and had to do the same thing).
>
> --
> John-
As it turned out the guy apologized profusely and he did correct
everything. In fact, he was even good enough to patiently endure my
little temper tantrum.
Here's an interesting little side-note to the story. As a result of my
complaints he brought an industrial magnet with him to clean up the
nails. Then believe it or not, I got a nail clear through my shoe (no
blood) before he even got the magnet out of the truck.
| |
|
| On Jun 4, 8:44 pm, Lawrence <lwha...@paulbunyan.net> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 9:02 am, mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I admit it. I have never had a house with any equiment like that on
> the roof. Swamp coolers would not be common in MN except to cool
> livestock barns during our short but intense summers. I know what
> they are like though.
>
> We had a window unit when I was a kid. We lived down south. From what
> I know they are essentially cool water misted or dripped over or in
> front of a fan. They cool the space but would add a lot of moisture
> to what already may be very humid air, depending on your climate.
> They are cheap to run though, esp compared to A/C! But as soon as we
> had the money, I remember, we got an A/C.
>
> I also admit I am surprised you have a swamp cooler and didn't think
> they were common anymore in residential situations. In what general
> part of the world are you in? Are swamp coolers common there? Do
> other houses in your neighborhood have swamp coolers on the roof?
>
> Never have I seen a swamp cooler in a Minnesota home. In houses up
> north, mechanicals like air conditioners will have the compressor
> outside, from what I know. Other type of mechanicals are either in a
> basement or in a room or closet designed for that purpose. Lots of
> people have window units for the dog days. I suppose it all means
> that I could have been wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
>
> It doesn't change the situation however. You still need to have the
> roof fixed properly under any scenario esp considering it is brand
> new. In your case, I think that means hiring someone to come and fix
> it. Everthing you have described is fixable so don't get too bent out
> of shape. If yu ever have that house roofed again you will know not
> to hire them guys and to ask about it with whomever you hire.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Swamp coolers (also called desert coolers) are probably popular
wherever water is cheap and the humidity is low. Cities like Denver,
Salt Lake City, Albuquerque and Phoenix are examples. Every once is a
while, in Utah, for instance we have some freak weather where the
humidity does go too high. I would say that happens perhaps once every
5 years or so and lasts maybe a couple of weeks. The rest of the time,
they work really well. The biggest problem with evaporative coolers is
that you have to climb up on the roof and service them twice per year;
once in the spring and then again in the fall. There's a chart at the
following website that provides swamp cooler performance versus
temperature and humidity.
http://www.wonderquest.com/swamp-cooler-humidity.htm
Swamp coolers aren't usually much of a problem for roofers. The legs
come right off with a few screws and it's easy to put the shingles
under them and then put the legs back on. One big problem that roofers
are going to have in future is with Satellite dishes, though. In the
case of DirecTV's new Ka/Ku dish, for example, it's probably
impossible for anyone but an expert with an expensive meter to install
it. That means that roofers are either going to have to become experts
or they're going to have to remove the antenna and be careful not to
damage it and then call a technician to re-install it after the job is
done. DirecTV only charges $49 to do that so it's not really a money
problem, it's just a matter of the roofers learning what needs to be
done and coordinating things with the technician so that the
customer's TV isn't off for too long.
| |
|
| On Jun 4, 10:04 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 8:12 am, John Ross <pdr3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I've traveled and worked around the country, and I'm familiar with
> swamp coolers and roof mount antennae of various sorts. It's not a
> technical question, it's a liability question. Even if the work is
> fairly simple, an owner would be shooting themselves in the foot to
> have untrained people messing with the equipment. A contractor
> receives no benefit, and exposes themselves to substantially increased
> liability by touching other systems.
In the case of swamp coolers, the legs remove with a few screws. So,
it's easy to lay shingles underneath them and then replace the legs.
In addition, swamp cooler parts are extremely cheap and it's hard to
imagine any liability issues.
In the case of satellite antennas, especially the latest Ka/Ku antenna
from DirecTV, installation is highly technical and requires an
expensive meter. So, roofers are going to have to learn to coordinate
their work with a dish antenna technician in the future.
> Whether they were the owner's or the contractor's, the assumptions
> caused the trouble. The OP assumed one thing and the contractor
> assumed another. There's plenty of blame to go around.
Actually we both assumed the same thing. The contractor admitted it
was a huge mistake on the part of one of the workmen and apologized
profusely and he has now fixed everything.
>
> A code violation is not "illegal". It's a code violation. I'm also
> passably proficient in the major codes, considering that I work with
> them daily, and know of no requirement that specifies in detail how
> flashing is to be installed with regards to rooftop structures.
> Please cite the code you are referring to.
>
>
>
> The majority of the country does not require permits for reroofing
> work. The following is fairly typical:
>
> When Do I Need a Building Permit?
> Common Procedures that Require a Building Permit:
> Above & Below Ground Swimming Pools
> Oil & Gas Heating Units and Tanks
> Contractor Licensing
> Plumbing
> Decks & Patios
> Public Assembly
> Demolition of Structures
> Radio & Television Disk Antennas
> Fences
> Rental Permit
> Fireplaces & Chimneys
> Retaining Walls
> Hot Tubs
> Signs
> Large Tool Sheds
> Temporary Structure
> Lawn Sprinkler Systems
> Tennis Courts
> New Additions & Interior Alterations
> Tree Removal
> New Homes & Buildings
> Use Permit
>
>
> Again, you're assuming a permit and inspections. If the roofer or OP
> had pulled a permit, and the work was indeed against the still-to-be-
> cited code, then the work would have been flagged, and the OP wouldn't
> be writing about the cooler's legs. It's probably safe to assume that
> no permit was pulled.
>
>
> What exactly will that accomplish? The only time that an independent
> report would be of use is if the OP decided to sue and an
> unknowledgeable person, like a judge, needed an expert's report to
> hang their hat on. For the amount of money we're talking about, it's
> extremely unlikely that a lawsuit will come out of this.
>
> R
| |
| Tim Smith 2007-06-06, 3:25 am |
| In article <1181095530.773217.118760@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
mg <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> under them and then put the legs back on. One big problem that roofers
> are going to have in future is with Satellite dishes, though. In the
> case of DirecTV's new Ka/Ku dish, for example, it's probably
> impossible for anyone but an expert with an expensive meter to install
> it. That means that roofers are either going to have to become experts
I'm curious why this is. What I gather from their site is that these
dishes have to be adjusted for altitude, azimuth, and tilt, as opposed
to just altitude and azimuth. So, that's one more parameter to fiddle
with, but I don't see why the same techniques wouldn't work that worked
with the dishes that don't care about tilt: point it approximately with
a protractor, and then make small tweaks in each adjustment until you
get the strongest signal. Is there something that makes this method not
work for these?
(For dishes that are used for their two-way service, and so transmit to
the satellite in addition to receiving, it is an FCC requirement that
you have a professional installation).
--
--Tim Smith
| |
| longshot 2007-06-06, 9:25 am |
|
>
> As it turned out the guy apologized profusely and he did correct
> everything. In fact, he was even good enough to patiently endure my
> little temper tantrum.
>
> Here's an interesting little side-note to the story. As a result of my
> complaints he brought an industrial magnet with him to clean up the
> nails. Then believe it or not, I got a nail clear through my shoe
>
>
the lord works in mysterious ways :-)
| |
|
| In article <reply_in_group-8BDCDB.22183405062007@news.supernews.com>,
reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com says...
> In article <1181095530.773217.118760@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> mg <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I'm curious why this is. What I gather from their site is that these
> dishes have to be adjusted for altitude, azimuth, and tilt, as opposed
> to just altitude and azimuth. So, that's one more parameter to fiddle
> with, but I don't see why the same techniques wouldn't work that worked
> with the dishes that don't care about tilt: point it approximately with
> a protractor, and then make small tweaks in each adjustment until you
> get the strongest signal. Is there something that makes this method not
> work for these?
Take away any setting and the antenna has to be made larger to
accommodate. You can't have a wider pattern (lower gain), keeping
the same size.
> (For dishes that are used for their two-way service, and so transmit to
> the satellite in addition to receiving, it is an FCC requirement that
> you have a professional installation).
Only makes sense. You really don't want people tromping on other
satellites.
--
Keith
| |
|
|
"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in
message
news:reply_in_group-8BDCDB.22183405062007@news.supernews.com...
> In article
> <1181095530.773217.118760@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> mg <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I'm curious why this is. What I gather from their site is
> that these
> dishes have to be adjusted for altitude, azimuth, and
> tilt, as opposed
> to just altitude and azimuth. So, that's one more
> parameter to fiddle
> with, but I don't see why the same techniques wouldn't
> work that worked
> with the dishes that don't care about tilt: point it
> approximately with
> a protractor, and then make small tweaks in each
> adjustment until you
> get the strongest signal. Is there something that makes
> this method not
> work for these?
>
> (For dishes that are used for their two-way service, and
> so transmit to
> the satellite in addition to receiving, it is an FCC
> requirement that
> you have a professional installation).
>
> --
> --Tim Smith
I'm on my third DirecTV dish now and I was able to install
the first two myself. With the first two, my technique was
to use the audible signal strength meter on the TV by
putting the telephone next to the TV and then calling myself
on my cell phone. Another technique I have used is to have
an assistant watch the meter on the TV while talking to him
on the cell phone.
As DirecTV adds more satellites, though, the margin for
error in pointing the dish becomes smaller. Speaking
hypothetically, the very first dish might have allowed for a
margin of error of 3 or 4 degrees in the azimuth setting,
but the new "Ka/Ku" antennas probably only allow an error of
a small fraction of one degree. This antenna, incidentally,
receives signals from 5 different satellites over a
20-degree span.
Another problem (obviously) with the new antenna is that it
has to be mounted so that it's very solid and very stable
and it typically requires 2 separate braces to hold it in
place. This means that not only is the pointing of the
antenna critical, but the mechanical installation is also.
In addition, the LNBs are probably relatively delicate and
the dish itself obviously isn't going to work if it's bent
even slightly.
In short, roofers are going to have a significant problem
with these antennas and I'm betting that most of them don't
even know it yet.
Incidentally, the previous generation of DirecTV antennas
also required a tilt adjustment, but that wasn't really a
problem. The problem is with degree of accuracy required and
not the number of adjustments that have to be made.
| |
| Mark Lloyd 2007-06-06, 1:25 pm |
| On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:43:48 -0600, "mg" <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
>I'm on my third DirecTV dish now and I was able to install
>the first two myself.
I installed my dishes myself, until I got HD service (I did NOT need a
5-LNB dish). Then the installer (which I didn't need at all, at least
if they'd send me the receiver) replaced my working 3-dish setup with
a 3-LNB dish (that did NOT improve anything).
> With the first two, my technique was
>to use the audible signal strength meter on the TV by
>putting the telephone next to the TV and then calling myself
>on my cell phone. Another technique I have used is to have
>an assistant watch the meter on the TV while talking to him
>on the cell phone.
>
Mine was closer, so I didn't need the phones. I just turned up the TV
volume and left the door open.
BTW, I suppose you had a headset for your cell phone.
>As DirecTV adds more satellites, though, the margin for
>error in pointing the dish becomes smaller. Speaking
>hypothetically, the very first dish might have allowed for a
>margin of error of 3 or 4 degrees in the azimuth setting,
>but the new "Ka/Ku" antennas probably only allow an error of
>a small fraction of one degree. This antenna, incidentally,
>receives signals from 5 different satellites
Actually 5 different satellite locations. There are 4 satellites at
the main (101) location, and there will me multiple satellites at the
new (Ka) locations.
Of the 101-degree satellites, 3 are older ones with 16 transponders
each (since there's a limit of 32 transponder channels, some must not
be in use), and the new spotbeam satellite with more transponders (I'm
not sure of the exact number, although I think that information is
available somewhere). 6 transponder channels (4,12,18,20,26,28) are
used for spotbeams.
> over a
>20-degree span.
>
>Another problem (obviously) with the new antenna is that it
>has to be mounted so that it's very solid and very stable
>and it typically requires 2 separate braces to hold it in
>place. This means that not only is the pointing of the
>antenna critical, but the mechanical installation is also.
>In addition, the LNBs are probably relatively delicate and
>the dish itself obviously isn't going to work if it's bent
>even slightly.
>
>In short, roofers are going to have a significant problem
>with these antennas and I'm betting that most of them don't
>even know it yet.
>
When I had my roof replaced, the roofer failed to replace the dish
properly. It's better if you can avoid putting it on the roof.
>Incidentally, the previous generation of DirecTV antennas
>also required a tilt adjustment,
The "previous generation" being 3-LNB dishes. Tilt is for
multi-satellite dishes (and did not apply to the original 1-sat ones).
BTW, the dish isn't the antenna. It's just a reflector. The antenna is
very small, and located within the LNB housing.
> but that wasn't really a
>problem. The problem is with degree of accuracy required and
>not the number of adjustments that have to be made.
>
>
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov
| |
|
|
"Mark Lloyd" <mlloyd@xmail.com10.invalid> wrote in message
news:6mqd63h3qtek3ieg61irbvtms75ctuq5gn@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:43:48 -0600, "mg"
> <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> I installed my dishes myself, until I got HD service (I
> did NOT need a
> 5-LNB dish). Then the installer (which I didn't need at
> all, at least
> if they'd send me the receiver) replaced my working 3-dish
> setup with
> a 3-LNB dish (that did NOT improve anything).
>
>
> Mine was closer, so I didn't need the phones. I just
> turned up the TV
> volume and left the door open.
>
> BTW, I suppose you had a headset for your cell phone.
Damn! You know I do have a headset that I use for my
cordless phone that would probably work, but I was too dumb
to think of it. Actually, I just spend an hour or two
yesterday trying to adjust my Ka/Ku antenna with no luck.
I'm not sure if it's broke after the roofers got through
kicking it around or maybe there's a small blip on the
signal strength bar on the TV that I'm not hearing with the
audio. I have a technician coming out Friday morning. It
only costs $49 and I've decided that it's worth it.
>
> Actually 5 different satellite locations. There are 4
> satellites at
> the main (101) location, and there will me multiple
> satellites at the
> new (Ka) locations.
I didn't know that. I suppose it makes sense, though.
> Of the 101-degree satellites, 3 are older ones with 16
> transponders
> each (since there's a limit of 32 transponder channels,
> some must not
> be in use), and the new spotbeam satellite with more
> transponders (I'm
> not sure of the exact number, although I think that
> information is
> available somewhere). 6 transponder channels
> (4,12,18,20,26,28) are
> used for spotbeams.
>
>
> When I had my roof replaced, the roofer failed to replace
> the dish
> properly. It's better if you can avoid putting it on the
> roof.
Yah, I know. My neighbor has a big wall of trees, though,
just south of my house. When I originally signed up for
DirecTV, I build a triangle, with the proper angle on it,
out of some scrap pieces of wood and stuck a level on it
with some tie wraps. Then I aimed along the top of the
triangle to insure that I had clearance. I'm guessing I have
about 20 feet on clearance, but there's no place else to put
it.
>
> The "previous generation" being 3-LNB dishes. Tilt is for
> multi-satellite dishes (and did not apply to the original
> 1-sat ones).
That's true. The tilt adjustment on the new Ka/Ku dish, by
the way, is the only adjustment that doesn't use a
fine-threaded screw for the final adjustment. Adjusting the
azimuth and elevation on this new one is a little bit like
adjusting the idling speed on an old carburator.
> BTW, the dish isn't the antenna. It's just a reflector.
> The antenna is
> very small, and located within the LNB housing.
I'm not sure if I agree although you might be right. With
the well-known Yagi-Uda, VHF antennas, for instance, there
is a reflector on the back and then a bunch of directors on
the front that focus the waves onto the receiving or driven
element. However, the entire assembly is still called an
"antenna". I wonder what the antenna inside looks like and
if it just consists of one element or some sort of an array?
I suppose it's mounted on a small circuit board.
> --
> Mark Lloyd
> http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
>
> "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
> force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov
That's true. Leviticus 15:19-30 comes to mind for instance.
| |
| Mark Lloyd 2007-06-06, 5:25 pm |
| On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:00:37 -0600, "mg" <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I wonder what the antenna inside looks like and
>if it just consists of one element or some sort of an array?
>I suppose it's mounted on a small circuit board.
>
It's been awhile since I looked at one, but I seem to remember it's
just a few printed circuit traces (4, 2 dipoles one for each
polarization).
>
>That's true. Leviticus 15:19-30 comes to mind for instance.
>
Yes.
BTW, I don't personally agree with that quotation, never having been
in a position to BECOME atheist.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov
| |
|
| On Jun 5, 7:05 pm, mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Swamp coolers aren't usually much of a problem for roofers. The legs
> come right off with a few screws and it's easy to put the shingles
> under them and then put the legs back on. One big problem that roofers
> are going to have in future is with Satellite dishes, though. In the
> case of DirecTV's new Ka/Ku dish, for example, it's probably
> impossible for anyone but an expert with an expensive meter to install
> it. That means that roofers are either going to have to become experts
> or they're going to have to remove the antenna and be careful not to
> damage it and then call a technician to re-install it after the job is
> done. DirecTV only charges $49 to do that so it's not really a money
> problem, it's just a matter of the roofers learning what needs to be
> done and coordinating things with the technician so that the
> customer's TV isn't off for too long.
If it was my roof, I wouldn't allow any unnecessary holes. Any tenant
of mine will face a bit of wrath if they contract a screw-it-to-the-
roof cable/dish installation, and so will the company that forgot to
ask the homeowner for permission to screw-it-to-the-roof. Attach that
sucker to the chimney or rake/fascia. Tom
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