Construction forum - Enlarging kitchen window

Author

Enlarging kitchen window

Sammy bin Snoozin

2007-10-14, 3:25 am

3 new photos uploaded to =
http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html.

I'm thinking about enlarging this window while we have the cabinets out. =
Without relocating the drain vent pipe, I can extend the right side of =
the window by 5-inches. Does anyone see any problems with doing this? =
I wouldn't do it myself - would hire a contractor. Also, this wall is a =
bearing wall, so I would definitely get a city inspector involved before =
doing anything. I'm not a big fan of inspectors, but in this case I =
think it's a good idea.

Anyway, thanks for any advise in advance!

Sam

Sgt. Giggles of the Kamikaze Gasbag Squadron

2007-10-14, 8:25 pm

On Oct 13, 10:19 pm, "Sammy bin Snoozin"
<SammyBinSnoo...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote:
> 3 new photos uploaded tohttp://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html.
>
> I'm thinking about enlarging this window while we have the cabinets out. Without relocating the drain vent pipe, I can extend the right side of the window by 5-inches. Does anyone see any problems with doing this? I wouldn't do it myself - would hire
a contractor. Also, this wall is a bearing wall, so I would definitely get a city inspector involved before doing anything. I'm not a big fan of inspectors, but in this case I think it's a good idea.
>
> Anyway, thanks for any advise in advance!
>
> Sam

Nobody around here knows anything about anything.

Talk to a competent contractor and ask him for references on his
previous work.

alvinamorey@notmail.com

2007-10-15, 3:25 am

79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79 79

97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97

Neon John

2007-10-15, 3:25 am

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 05:19:19 GMT, "Sammy bin Snoozin"
<SammyBinSnoozin@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote:

>3 new photos uploaded to http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html.
>
>
>
>I'm thinking about enlarging this window while we have the cabinets out. Without relocating the drain vent pipe, I can extend the right side of the window by 5-inches. Does anyone see any problems with doing this? I wouldn't do it myself - would hire
a contractor. Also, this wall is a bearing wall, so I would definitely get a city inspector involved before doing anything. I'm not a big fan of inspectors, but in this case I think it's a good idea.

Don't expect much from the inspector. They aren't hired for their architectural or
engineering skills. I suggest buying an hour or two of a structural engineer's time.

I see the potential for major complications with that triple stud setup to the
immediate right of the window. That may indicate a significant load bearing
structure, though given how older structures were overbuilt, maybe not. I'd
certainly want the opinion of a professional before whacking away on those studs.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Remember, amateurs made the Ark, professionals made the Titanic.

Sammy bin Snoozin

2007-10-15, 3:25 am

Thanks, I took another look at the studs and there are 2 running from =
base to ceiling on the left and 2 on the right of the window. See this =
sketch at the top of this page... just uploaded...

http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html

I'm thinking I'll open the wall on the right to the ceiling and add 2 =
new 8-ft studs and nail in place before cutting the 2. I can't tell =
without breaking open the wall, but it looks like there's nothing =
between the sill and the top of the window on the 3rd stud on the right.

Good advice on seeking an expert.

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message =
news:hlp5h3l31butj2rpkmca1e47c9j0uo9cff@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 05:19:19 GMT, "Sammy bin Snoozin"
> <SammyBinSnoozin@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote:
>=20
http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html.[color=darkred]
out. Without relocating the drain vent pipe, I can extend the right =
side of the window by 5-inches. Does anyone see any problems with doing =
this? I wouldn't do it myself - would hire a contractor. Also, this =
wall is a bearing wall, so I would definitely get a city inspector =
involved before doing anything. I'm not a big fan of inspectors, but in =
this case I think it's a good idea.[color=darkred]
>=20
> Don't expect much from the inspector. They aren't hired for their =
architectural or
> engineering skills. I suggest buying an hour or two of a structural =
engineer's time.
>=20
> I see the potential for major complications with that triple stud =
setup to the
> immediate right of the window. That may indicate a significant load =
bearing
> structure, though given how older structures were overbuilt, maybe =
not. I'd
> certainly want the opinion of a professional before whacking away on =
those studs.
>=20
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Remember, amateurs made the Ark, professionals made the Titanic.
>

Sammy bin Snoozin

2007-10-15, 3:25 am

<alvinamorey@notmail.com> wrote in message =
news:86l5h3phg7olnc77bmt051aeo2am0u5cfu@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 05:19:19 GMT, "Sammy bin Snoozin"
> <SammyBinSnoozin@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote:
>=20
http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html.[color=darkred]
out. Without relocating[color=darkred]
any problems with doing=20[color=darkred]
wall is a bearing wall, so I would=20[color=darkred]
not a big fan of inspectors, but=20[color=darkred]
>=20
> Use google, and search for "enlarge your".
> There are 944,000 hits to choose from. Many will really enlighten you
> !!!!!

Hey, I don't want to enlarge my pecker! :O) Speaking of which, here's =
a sad story about a man at the pickle factory...

http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/89q1/slicer.300.html

Sam

Sgt. Giggles of the Kamikaze Gasbag Squadron

2007-10-15, 9:25 am

On Oct 14, 9:56 pm, "Sammy bin Snoozin"
<SammyBinSnoo...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote:
> <alvinamo...@notmail.com> wrote in messagenews:86l5h3phg7olnc77bmt051aeo2am0u5cfu@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey, I don't want to enlarge my pecker! :O) Speaking of which, here's a sad story about a man at the pickle factory...
>
> http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/89q1/slicer.300.html
>
> Sam- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

LOL!!!

Ann

2007-10-15, 9:25 am

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 04:51:33 +0000, Sammy bin Snoozin wrote:

> Thanks, I took another look at the studs and there are 2 running from
> base to ceiling on the left and 2 on the right of the window. See this
> sketch at the top of this page... just uploaded...
>
> http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html
>
> I'm thinking I'll open the wall on the right to the ceiling and add 2
> new 8-ft studs and nail in place before cutting the 2. I can't tell
> without breaking open the wall, but it looks like there's nothing
> between the sill and the top of the window on the 3rd stud on the right.
>
<...>

Google on "window framing". If the window is correctly framed, there will
be a double 2x8 (or 2x6) header over the window, supported by/between the
studs on either side. Unless for some reason the wall was originally
framed for a wider window, you'll have to remove the existing header and
replace it with a longer one. Also consider what's nailed to the
existing window framing on the exterior of the house. And, at least in my
state, replacement windows the same size (or smaller) are ok, but changing
the framing for a larger window requires a building permit.

2007-10-15, 1:25 pm

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:48:28 GMT, Ann <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 04:51:33 +0000, Sammy bin Snoozin wrote:
>
><...>
>
>Google on "window framing". If the window is correctly framed, there will
>be a double 2x8 (or 2x6) header over the window, supported by/between the
>studs on either side. Unless for some reason the wall was originally
>framed for a wider window, you'll have to remove the existing header and
>replace it with a longer one. Also consider what's nailed to the
>existing window framing on the exterior of the house. And, at least in my
>state, replacement windows the same size (or smaller) are ok, but changing
>the framing for a larger window requires a building permit.

Good advice from several here. Making the window 5 inches wider will cost just
about as much, or perhaps even more, than adding a new window. Only you can
decide if it's worth it.

Michael $LS$

2007-10-15, 5:25 pm

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:hlp5h3l31butj2rpkmca1e47c9j0uo9cff@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 05:19:19 GMT, "Sammy bin Snoozin"
> <SammyBinSnoozin@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote:
>
http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html.[color=darkred]
Without relocating the drain vent pipe, I can extend the right side of the
window by 5-inches. Does anyone see any problems with doing this? I
wouldn't do it myself - would hire a contractor. Also, this wall is a
bearing wall, so I would definitely get a city inspector involved before
doing anything. I'm not a big fan of inspectors, but in this case I think
it's a good idea.[color=darkred]
>
> Don't expect much from the inspector. They aren't hired for their
architectural or
> engineering skills. I suggest buying an hour or two of a structural
engineer's time.
>
> I see the potential for major complications with that triple stud setup to
the
> immediate right of the window. That may indicate a significant load
bearing
> structure, though given how older structures were overbuilt, maybe not.
I'd
> certainly want the opinion of a professional before whacking away on those
studs.
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Remember, amateurs made the Ark, professionals made the Titanic.
>

Those studs you're looking to cut off at sill height are "trimmer" and
"king" studs. They support the header (and that IS a load bearing wall so
the header may be decently sized). To cut off those studs you'll need to
replace the current header with a longer one that can carry the load over
the new, longer, span. Of course both ends of the new header will also need
to be supported. In order to do all this you're talking about removing
interior sheetrock/drywall/plaster/whatever the hell the finish is, cutting
the vapor barrier (if there is one), modifying the studs/header, cutting the
exterior sheathing & housewrap (if there is wrap), removing siding and
modifying then re-installing (or possibly cutting in place depending upon
the type of siding/brick/exterior finish and new window trim).

All of this means this job is much more substantial than swapping out a
window. While a replacement window might be (and I'll use very rough
numbers!) $900 installed, enlarging the opening and all that goes with it
probably will cost closer to $2500-3000. Of course a lot of the pricing
would depend upon what work is already being done as part of the project
(i.e. if the siding is all being replaced anyway then the window opening
part of the siding work isn't much more, but if the siding is only being
touched because of the window, then it's probably a few hundred dollars just
for that part).

Another thing to consider is esthetics. With the window expanded to just
one side will it still be centered appropriately? Will the sink center
under it? Is the new larger window proportioned correctly for the room?
How's it look from the outside? Etc.

HTH,

Michael (LS)

Sheldon

2007-10-16, 3:25 am

"Sammy bin Snoozin" wrote:
>
> Thanks, I took another look at the studs and there are 2 running from base to ceiling on the left and 2 on the right of the window. See this sketch at the top of this page... just uploaded...
>
> http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html

Too bad you don't show the upper portion, the header is the most
important supporting element of any wall opening. Being labor is the
most costly element I suggest using the heaviest header that will
fit... for a 6' to 8' span I recommend a 2" X 8" doubler minimum.

http://www.hometips.com/articles/ho...ure/header.html

Sheldon

2007-10-16, 1:25 pm

"Michael" wrote:
> "Sammy bin Snoozin" wrote:
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/sammybinsnoozin/kitchen.html.
>
>
> Without relocating the drain vent pipe, I can extend the right side of the
> window by 5-inches. Does anyone see any problems with doing this? I
> wouldn't do it myself - would hire a contractor. Also, this wall is a
> bearing wall, so I would definitely get a city inspector involved before
> doing anything. I'm not a big fan of inspectors, but in this case I think
> it's a good idea.
>
>
> Those studs you're looking to cut off at sill height are "trimmer" and
> "king" studs. They support the header (and that IS a load bearing wall so
> the header may be decently sized). To cut off those studs you'll need to
> replace the current header with a longer one that can carry the load over
> the new, longer, span. Of course both ends of the new header will also need
> to be supported. In order to do all this you're talking about removing
> interior sheetrock/drywall/plaster/whatever the hell the finish is, cutting
> the vapor barrier (if there is one), modifying the studs/header, cutting the
> exterior sheathing & housewrap (if there is wrap), removing siding and
> modifying then re-installing (or possibly cutting in place depending upon
> the type of siding/brick/exterior finish and new window trim).
>
> All of this means this job is much more substantial than swapping out a
> window. While a replacement window might be (and I'll use very rough
> numbers!) $900 installed, enlarging the opening and all that goes with it
> probably will cost closer to $2500-3000. Of course a lot of the pricing
> would depend upon what work is already being done as part of the project
> (i.e. if the siding is all being replaced anyway then the window opening
> part of the siding work isn't much more, but if the siding is only being
> touched because of the window, then it's probably a few hundred dollars just
> for that part).
>
> Another thing to consider is esthetics. With the window expanded to just
> one side will it still be centered appropriately? Will the sink center
> under it? Is the new larger window proportioned correctly for the room?
> How's it look from the outside? Etc.

All very accurate advice. The exterior appearance is even more
important than from inside especially if it faces front/streetside.

Often to gain a more panoramic view, instead of a larger window
opening one should consider a bow window... the window will cost a bit
more than the larger window but the overall job will cost a whole lot
less.

I moved from here about five years ago. The bow window to the right
is the kitchen, I added it myself. Originally it was two small narrow
vertical windows that didn't open, the side panels of the bow window
crank out. I installed the large bow window to the left a few years
prior. Other than the cost of the windows there isn't a lot of
material cost (standard building lumber is inexpensive), it's mostly
labor and mine was free. My teenage son and a couple of his friends
helped with the lifting, otherwise there isn't really much labor.

http://i21.tinypic.com/1562ra0.jpg

Keep in mind that all exterior walls are bearing walls... it's only
interior walls that can be non bearing, such as partitions. Also,
when windows are installed properly there should be no load whatsoever
on the windows, the windows should support nothing, that's why it's
very important to beef up the framing around the opening... the
opening needs to be a full inch larger, width and height, use loose
shims to locate window, the window should float, bow windows typically
incorporate canterlever tensioning cables for setting it plumb and
bearing some of the windows own weight, they're adjusted from the
exterior undersurface and may need readjustment periodically. If the
window is supporting any load or is fastened too tightly not only will
the opening mechanism jam but the glass will probably shattter when
weather conditions change.

Btw, a waste line vent pipe is pretty simple to shift over below the
window opening and then shift it back above the window opening,
especially in newer construction where it would most likely be
plastic.

Kolby

2007-10-16, 8:25 pm

"Sheldon" wrote in message

> Keep in mind that all exterior walls are bearing walls...

This is simply incorrect.

Sammy bin Snoozin

2007-10-17, 3:25 am

"Sheldon" <PENMART01@aol.com> wrote in message =
news:1192490537.136704.221700@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> "Sammy bin Snoozin" wrote:
from base to ceiling on the left and 2 on the right of the window. See =
this sketch at the top of this page... just uploaded...[color=darkred]
>=20
> Too bad you don't show the upper portion, the header is the most
> important supporting element of any wall opening. Being labor is the
> most costly element I suggest using the heaviest header that will
> fit... for a 6' to 8' span I recommend a 2" X 8" doubler minimum.
>=20
> http://www.hometips.com/articles/ho...ure/header.html
>

Sammy bin Snoozin

2007-10-17, 3:25 am

Sammy bin Snoozin

2007-10-17, 3:25 am

Very nice looking job, Sheldon. Your window on the right side of the =
photo is what we are planning to install. Our existing window is only =
33-inches wide, which is really kind of small for a bay. New cut-out =
will be 40-inches -- enough room so that the lovely wife can see what =
the neighbors are doing better. :O)

"Sheldon" <PENMART01@aol.com> wrote in message =
news:1192551894.892711.109820@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> "Michael" wrote:
cabinets out.[color=darkred]
of the[color=darkred]
I[color=darkred]
a[color=darkred]
before[color=darkred]
think[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
wall so[color=darkred]
need to[color=darkred]
over[color=darkred]
also need[color=darkred]
removing[color=darkred]
cutting[color=darkred]
cutting the[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
upon[color=darkred]
out a[color=darkred]
rough[color=darkred]
with it[color=darkred]
pricing[color=darkred]
project[color=darkred]
opening[color=darkred]
being[color=darkred]
dollars just[color=darkred]
just[color=darkred]
center[color=darkred]
room?[color=darkred]
>=20
> All very accurate advice. The exterior appearance is even more
> important than from inside especially if it faces front/streetside.
>=20
> Often to gain a more panoramic view, instead of a larger window
> opening one should consider a bow window... the window will cost a bit
> more than the larger window but the overall job will cost a whole lot
> less.
>=20
> I moved from here about five years ago. The bow window to the right
> is the kitchen, I added it myself. Originally it was two small narrow
> vertical windows that didn't open, the side panels of the bow window
> crank out. I installed the large bow window to the left a few years
> prior. Other than the cost of the windows there isn't a lot of
> material cost (standard building lumber is inexpensive), it's mostly
> labor and mine was free. My teenage son and a couple of his friends
> helped with the lifting, otherwise there isn't really much labor.
>=20
> http://i21.tinypic.com/1562ra0.jpg
>=20
> Keep in mind that all exterior walls are bearing walls... it's only
> interior walls that can be non bearing, such as partitions. Also,
> when windows are installed properly there should be no load whatsoever
> on the windows, the windows should support nothing, that's why it's
> very important to beef up the framing around the opening... the
> opening needs to be a full inch larger, width and height, use loose
> shims to locate window, the window should float, bow windows typically
> incorporate canterlever tensioning cables for setting it plumb and
> bearing some of the windows own weight, they're adjusted from the
> exterior undersurface and may need readjustment periodically. If the
> window is supporting any load or is fastened too tightly not only will
> the opening mechanism jam but the glass will probably shattter when
> weather conditions change.
>=20
> Btw, a waste line vent pipe is pretty simple to shift over below the
> window opening and then shift it back above the window opening,
> especially in newer construction where it would most likely be
> plastic.
>=20
>

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