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Home > Archive > Construction forum > July 2007 > Vapor barrier coating for particle board
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Vapor barrier coating for particle board
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| Mail Man Bob 2007-07-29, 5:25 pm |
| I am going to install some kitchen cabinets. The structural parts are
plywood, front are solid, but most of the rest is particle board. The mfr
calls it something else (furniture board?), but it's plain old particle
board as far as I can tell.
The particle board pieces are cover with something - either laminate or
plastic - except any places that are not visible.
I know of 2 people personally who had dealings with new kitchen cabinets -
one in apt , other in a house - and both suffered allergic reactions to the
binding chemicals - formaldehyde or other.
Going to all-plywood or all-wood construction sends the price to a different
orbit, since this would essentially be doing a 'custom' job. So for cost,
we have to use as standard a material as we can.
My thought is to coat the uncovered surfaces with some kind of sealer -
either a primer or water seal product - to seal in any vapors inside.
Long story, I know.... but 2 questions...
1 - Can someone recommend the best type of sealer? I have seen water- and
oil-based at Home Depot, as well as various primers, etc.
2 - I heard something recently about the govt outlawing carcinogens in
particle board. Anyone know about that?
Whew! That's a long one. (The longer the better. :O)
Thanks.
Bob
| |
| Morris Dovey 2007-07-29, 5:25 pm |
| Mail Man Bob wrote:
| I am going to install some kitchen cabinets. The structural parts
| are plywood, front are solid, but most of the rest is particle
| board. The mfr calls it something else (furniture board?), but
| it's plain old particle board as far as I can tell.
|
| The particle board pieces are cover with something - either
| laminate or plastic - except any places that are not visible.
|
| I know of 2 people personally who had dealings with new kitchen
| cabinets - one in apt , other in a house - and both suffered
| allergic reactions to the binding chemicals - formaldehyde or other.
|
| Going to all-plywood or all-wood construction sends the price to a
| different orbit, since this would essentially be doing a 'custom'
| job. So for cost, we have to use as standard a material as we can.
|
| My thought is to coat the uncovered surfaces with some kind of
| sealer - either a primer or water seal product - to seal in any
| vapors inside.
|
| Long story, I know.... but 2 questions...
|
| 1 - Can someone recommend the best type of sealer? I have seen
| water- and oil-based at Home Depot, as well as various primers, etc.
|
| 2 - I heard something recently about the govt outlawing carcinogens
| in particle board. Anyone know about that?
It's not clear whether you're building or buying these cabinets.
If you're buying them, then you should be able to apply a light
wipe-on coat of poly to seal as much of the material as you can get
at. It should help to decrease moisture problems and inhibit
(somewhat) outgassing.
If you're building the cabinets, you might consider substituting a
product like Extira(tm) that uses acrylic plastic as a binder to
eliminate moisture problems and sidestep the outgassing problems
entirely. It looks like MDF, machines like MDF, and eats tool edges
just like MDF - but won't change dimensions more than 2% even when
left immersed in water. I've applied shellac, poly, and Zinser 1-2-3
primer without difficulties.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
| |
| sailor 2007-07-29, 5:25 pm |
| On Jul 29, 3:45?pm, "Mail Man Bob" <n...@where.com> wrote:
> I am going to install some kitchen cabinets. The structural parts are
> plywood, front are solid, but most of the rest is particle board. The mfr
> calls it something else (furniture board?), but it's plain old particle
> board as far as I can tell.
>
> The particle board pieces are cover with something - either laminate or
> plastic - except any places that are not visible.
>
> I know of 2 people personally who had dealings with new kitchen cabinets -
> one in apt , other in a house - and both suffered allergic reactions to the
> binding chemicals - formaldehyde or other.
>
> Going to all-plywood or all-wood construction sends the price to a different
> orbit, since this would essentially be doing a 'custom' job. So for cost,
> we have to use as standard a material as we can.
>
> My thought is to coat the uncovered surfaces with some kind of sealer -
> either a primer or water seal product - to seal in any vapors inside.
>
> Long story, I know.... but 2 questions...
>
> 1 - Can someone recommend the best type of sealer? I have seen water- and
> oil-based at Home Depot, as well as various primers, etc.
>
> 2 - I heard something recently about the govt outlawing carcinogens in
> particle board. Anyone know about that?
>
> Whew! That's a long one. (The longer the better. :O)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob
Even if the vapors are safe, it would be a good idea to seal moisture
out.
I've seen lots of cabinets fall apart when the particle board, mdf,
etc gets
wet.
| |
| Lew Hodgett 2007-07-29, 5:25 pm |
| "Mail Man Bob" wrote:
> My thought is to coat the uncovered surfaces with some kind of sealer -
> either a primer or water seal product - to seal in any vapors inside.
Why not shellac?
Lew
| |
|
| If you haven't bought cabinets yet I would check local stores instead of HD
or Lowes. I did and found better quality installed for less money than HD
and Lowes wanted without installation included.
"Mail Man Bob" <no@where.com> wrote in message
news:y76ri.7378$8u1.1964@trnddc07...
>I am going to install some kitchen cabinets. The structural parts are
> plywood, front are solid, but most of the rest is particle board. The mfr
> calls it something else (furniture board?), but it's plain old particle
> board as far as I can tell.
>
> The particle board pieces are cover with something - either laminate or
> plastic - except any places that are not visible.
>
> I know of 2 people personally who had dealings with new kitchen cabinets -
> one in apt , other in a house - and both suffered allergic reactions to
> the
> binding chemicals - formaldehyde or other.
>
> Going to all-plywood or all-wood construction sends the price to a
> different
> orbit, since this would essentially be doing a 'custom' job. So for cost,
> we have to use as standard a material as we can.
>
> My thought is to coat the uncovered surfaces with some kind of sealer -
> either a primer or water seal product - to seal in any vapors inside.
>
> Long story, I know.... but 2 questions...
>
> 1 - Can someone recommend the best type of sealer? I have seen water- and
> oil-based at Home Depot, as well as various primers, etc.
>
> 2 - I heard something recently about the govt outlawing carcinogens in
> particle board. Anyone know about that?
>
> Whew! That's a long one. (The longer the better. :O)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
| |
| John Grossbohlin 2007-07-29, 9:25 pm |
|
"Mail Man Bob" <no@where.com> wrote in message
news:y76ri.7378$8u1.1964@trnddc07...
>I am going to install some kitchen cabinets. The structural parts are
> plywood, front are solid, but most of the rest is particle board. The mfr
> calls it something else (furniture board?), but it's plain old particle
> board as far as I can tell.
>
> The particle board pieces are cover with something - either laminate or
> plastic - except any places that are not visible.
>
> I know of 2 people personally who had dealings with new kitchen cabinets -
> one in apt , other in a house - and both suffered allergic reactions to
> the
> binding chemicals - formaldehyde or other.
Another approach to this is to "cook off" the chemicals that are outgassing
before the cabinets are brought into the home... The outgassing can be sped
up by placing the cabinets in a relatively hot environment for a while. For
example, an uninsulated closed up garage that gets a lot of sun, or a sunny
"Florida room" that can be isolated from the main home is probably
sufficient for this purpose. The same type of thing can be done to cook off
the chemicals in carpets, polyester fiber fill in pillows, etc.
Another approach is to use forced ventilation to remove the chemical laden
air from the home. An air-to-air heat exchanger is advisable to save on the
"conditioned air" expense.
Look up Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS) and/or Environmental Illness for
more information on speeding up the outgassing process and on how to deal
with internal air pollution in general.
John
| |
| Mail Man Bob 2007-07-29, 9:25 pm |
| Yes, same here. These are by Mid Continent thru a reputable installer.
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:%I8ri.13860$zA4.2184@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> If you haven't bought cabinets yet I would check local stores instead of
HD
> or Lowes. I did and found better quality installed for less money than HD
> and Lowes wanted without installation included.
>
>
>
> "Mail Man Bob" <no@where.com> wrote in message
> news:y76ri.7378$8u1.1964@trnddc07...
mfr[color=darkred]
cabinets -[color=darkred]
cost,[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Mail Man Bob 2007-07-29, 9:25 pm |
| Good question. Shellac was my first thought also. Anyone have more ideas
as to what kind of sealer would be best?
Also, I looked at water-based and oil-based. I'll have to do the
application in the house, so whichever will dissipate quicker and still seal
good would be best for me.
"Lew Hodgett" <lewhodgett@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:jV7ri.12165$rR.1011@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Mail Man Bob" wrote:
>
>
> Why not shellac?
>
> Lew
| |
| William Underhill 2007-07-30, 3:25 am |
| Morris Dovey wrote:
> If you're building the cabinets, you might consider substituting a
> product like Extira(tm) that uses acrylic plastic as a binder to
> eliminate moisture problems and sidestep the outgassing problems
> entirely. It looks like MDF, machines like MDF, and eats tool edges
> just like MDF - but won't change dimensions more than 2% even when
> left immersed in water. I've applied shellac, poly, and Zinser 1-2-3
> primer without difficulties.
Bet that stuff weighs a ton, with all that plastic in it. And I don't
know what the fire retardancy would be like...
W. Underhill
--
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
| |
| Lew Hodgett 2007-07-30, 3:25 am |
| Mail Man Bob wrote:
> Good question. Shellac was my first thought also. Anyone have more
ideas
> as to what kind of sealer would be best?
>
> Also, I looked at water-based and oil-based. I'll have to do the
> application in the house, so whichever will dissipate quicker and
still seal
> good would be best for me.
Shellac and it's alcohol
VOCs become NBD
I'd probably use 1 lb, maybe even 1/2 lb cut based on how it applies.
YMMV.
BTW, my idea of water based stuff is interior wall paint, just so you
know I'm biased.
Lew
| |
| Morris Dovey 2007-07-30, 9:25 am |
| William Underhill wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| If you're building the cabinets, you might consider substituting a
|| product like Extira(tm) that uses acrylic plastic as a binder to
|| eliminate moisture problems and sidestep the outgassing problems
|| entirely. It looks like MDF, machines like MDF, and eats tool edges
|| just like MDF - but won't change dimensions more than 2% even when
|| left immersed in water. I've applied shellac, poly, and Zinser
|| 1-2-3 primer without difficulties.
|
| Bet that stuff weighs a ton, with all that plastic in it. And I
| don't know what the fire retardancy would be like...
I should have added: "Heavy like MDF" to the list. I'm not sure about
the relative combustability.
I use it for routed signs. You can see an example by following the
link in my sig.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/PT_Sign.html
| |
| Ron Hock 2007-07-30, 1:25 pm |
| Shellac has the best vapor-barrier properties of any finish, even the
newer plastic ones. Ten billion lac bugs can't be wrong.
Ron Hock
www.hockfinishes.com
Mail Man Bob wrote:
> I am going to install some kitchen cabinets. The structural parts are
> plywood, front are solid, but most of the rest is particle board. The mfr
> calls it something else (furniture board?), but it's plain old particle
> board as far as I can tell.
>
> The particle board pieces are cover with something - either laminate or
> plastic - except any places that are not visible.
>
> I know of 2 people personally who had dealings with new kitchen cabinets -
> one in apt , other in a house - and both suffered allergic reactions to the
> binding chemicals - formaldehyde or other.
>
> Going to all-plywood or all-wood construction sends the price to a different
> orbit, since this would essentially be doing a 'custom' job. So for cost,
> we have to use as standard a material as we can.
>
> My thought is to coat the uncovered surfaces with some kind of sealer -
> either a primer or water seal product - to seal in any vapors inside.
>
> Long story, I know.... but 2 questions...
>
> 1 - Can someone recommend the best type of sealer? I have seen water- and
> oil-based at Home Depot, as well as various primers, etc.
>
> 2 - I heard something recently about the govt outlawing carcinogens in
> particle board. Anyone know about that?
>
> Whew! That's a long one. (The longer the better. :O)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
--
Ron Hock
HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com
| |
| Mail Man Bob 2007-07-30, 1:25 pm |
| Thanks LH.
"Lew Hodgett" <lewhodgett@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uperi.12280$rR.1064@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Mail Man Bob wrote:
>
> ideas
> still seal
>
> Shellac and it's alcohol
>
> VOCs become NBD
>
> I'd probably use 1 lb, maybe even 1/2 lb cut based on how it applies.
>
> YMMV.
>
> BTW, my idea of water based stuff is interior wall paint, just so you
> know I'm biased.
>
>
> Lew
| |
| Mail Man Bob 2007-07-30, 1:25 pm |
| Thanks, Ron. Shellac it is.
"Ron Hock" <nospam@www.hocktools.com> wrote in message
news:TKGdnUo-K735vjPbnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@comcast.com...
> Shellac has the best vapor-barrier properties of any finish, even the
> newer plastic ones. Ten billion lac bugs can't be wrong.
>
> Ron Hock
> www.hockfinishes.com
>
> Mail Man Bob wrote:
mfr[color=darkred]
cabinets -[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
different[color=darkred]
cost,[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
>
>
> --
> Ron Hock
> HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com
| |
| Mail Man Bob 2007-07-30, 1:25 pm |
| Thanks everyone for all the great info. I'll trot down to the shellac
store and let you know how it turns out.
What's a good binaries group that most people have access to -- I'll post a
few snap shots FWIW.
Bob
| |
| GROVER 2007-07-31, 1:25 pm |
| On Jul 29, 3:45 pm, "Mail Man Bob" <n...@where.com> wrote:
> I am going to install some kitchen cabinets. The structural parts are
> plywood, front are solid, but most of the rest is particle board. The mfr
> calls it something else (furniture board?), but it's plain old particle
> board as far as I can tell.
>
> The particle board pieces are cover with something - either laminate or
> plastic - except any places that are not visible.
>
> I know of 2 people personally who had dealings with new kitchen cabinets -
> one in apt , other in a house - and both suffered allergic reactions to the
> binding chemicals - formaldehyde or other.
>
> Going to all-plywood or all-wood construction sends the price to a different
> orbit, since this would essentially be doing a 'custom' job. So for cost,
> we have to use as standard a material as we can.
>
> My thought is to coat the uncovered surfaces with some kind of sealer -
> either a primer or water seal product - to seal in any vapors inside.
>
> Long story, I know.... but 2 questions...
>
> 1 - Can someone recommend the best type of sealer? I have seen water- and
> oil-based at Home Depot, as well as various primers, etc.
>
> 2 - I heard something recently about the govt outlawing carcinogens in
> particle board. Anyone know about that?
>
> Whew! That's a long one. (The longer the better. :O)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob
While on a work assignment in Germany many years ago, I was made aware
that the German building code which governed casework, required that
all exposed edges of melamine board ( particle board substrate) be
covered. Presumably for the formaldehyde outgassing problem mentioned
here. The German cabinet makers used edgebanding at that time,
Joe G
| |
| Mail Man Bob 2007-07-31, 1:25 pm |
|
"GROVER" <joseph.golaine@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185899452.730340.33260@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 29, 3:45 pm, "Mail Man Bob" <n...@where.com> wrote:
mfr[color=darkred]
cabinets -[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
different[color=darkred]
cost,[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
>
> While on a work assignment in Germany many years ago, I was made aware
> that the German building code which governed casework, required that
> all exposed edges of melamine board ( particle board substrate) be
> covered. Presumably for the formaldehyde outgassing problem mentioned
> here. The German cabinet makers used edgebanding at that time,
> Joe G
>
Thanks, Joe. Do you know where to get edgebanding?
| |
| GROVER 2007-07-31, 1:25 pm |
| On Jul 31, 12:41 pm, "Mail Man Bob" <n...@where.com> wrote:
> "GROVER" <joseph.gola...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1185899452.730340.33260@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> mfr
>
>
> cabinets -
> the
>
> different
> cost,
>
>
>
> and
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks, Joe. Do you know where to get edgebanding?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
i use a heat activated form of edge banding which can be applied with
an ordinary household iron. I purchase it at a local cabinet makers
supply. Usually these places supply the local cabinet shops with
hardwood veneer plywood,hinges, drawer slides, finishing supplies et
al.The Borgs don,t seem to carry edge banding.
Joe G
| |
| Michael \(LS\) 2007-07-31, 1:25 pm |
|
"Mail Man Bob" <no@where.com> wrote in message
news:mDJri.7709$8u1.5105@trnddc07...
>
> "GROVER" <joseph.golaine@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1185899452.730340.33260@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> mfr
particle[color=darkred]
or[color=darkred]
> cabinets -
to[color=darkred]
> the
> different
> cost,
sealer -[color=darkred]
> and
>
> Thanks, Joe. Do you know where to get edgebanding?
>
>
Outwater has a bunch of different types. See:
http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/200...=42&catalog=otm
HTH,
Michael (LS)
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