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chain saw v. trimmer - urgent!
|
|
| Charlie Brown 2005-10-19, 6:21 pm |
| Hi
I have just started my 2 weeks holiday and I need to clear my garden of 10
years worth of neglect (we have just moved in). To make matters worse, I
just cut through the cable of the hedge trimmer. I went to buy a petrol
driven type but they didn't have one - the guy said he had plenty of chain
saws. Question! what is the difference (apart from the obvious) between
using a chain saw and a trimmer for doing the same type of work i.e.
cropping back bushes and scrub etc? - will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
I would appreciate a quick reply so that I can buy one tomorrow and save me
a few days of my holiday!!
thanks in advance
Charlie
| |
| Gary Woods 2005-10-19, 6:21 pm |
| "Charlie Brown" <charlie.brown@newbury.net> wrote:
> will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
A chain saw is a much cruder thing, and it doesn't do a nice job on small
stuff. I've used mine to good effect lopping off a bunch of brush that had
overgrown an old farmer's access lane by a boundary wall, but you sure
won't be doing topiary with it!
Is there somebody who will rent a petrol powered hedge trimmer, or an
electric one with an intact cord? Are you comfortable with splicing the
cut one? Heat shrink tubing over soldered connections works nicely, but if
the terms don't make sense, don't try it...
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-10-19, 6:21 pm |
| In article <4356b0be$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
Charlie Brown <charlie.brown@newbury.net> wrote:
>
>I have just started my 2 weeks holiday and I need to clear my garden of 10
>years worth of neglect (we have just moved in). To make matters worse, I
>just cut through the cable of the hedge trimmer. I went to buy a petrol
>driven type but they didn't have one - the guy said he had plenty of chain
>saws. Question! what is the difference (apart from the obvious) between
>using a chain saw and a trimmer for doing the same type of work i.e.
>cropping back bushes and scrub etc? - will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
>I would appreciate a quick reply so that I can buy one tomorrow and save me
>a few days of my holiday!!
Be sure to buy a few spare legs, the odd spare arm and a spare neck
or two. Plus the odd gallon of blood. It is AMAZING what you can
cut through with a chainsaw.
Alternatively, you could go to an agricultural merchant or GOOD
garden centre, and buy some hand tools (shears, a billhook and/or
machete, a sickle (not a grass hook), a hand axe, some secateurs
and some loppers). Then drop in at the off-licence and stock up
on beer.
It's all a matter of taste, really.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Mike Lyle 2005-10-19, 7:21 pm |
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <4356b0be$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
> Charlie Brown <charlie.brown@newbury.net> wrote:
garden[color=darkred]
I[color=darkred]
guy[color=darkred]
difference[color=darkred]
for[color=darkred]
etc?[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
>
> Be sure to buy a few spare legs, the odd spare arm and a spare neck
> or two. Plus the odd gallon of blood. It is AMAZING what you can
> cut through with a chainsaw.
>
> Alternatively, you could go to an agricultural merchant or GOOD
> garden centre, and buy some hand tools (shears, a billhook and/or
> machete, a sickle (not a grass hook), a hand axe, some secateurs
> and some loppers). Then drop in at the off-licence and stock up
> on beer.
>
> It's all a matter of taste, really.
What he said. If you have to ask, you don't want a chain saw. They
are absolutely not for trimming hedges. They're for cutting through
solid trunks and branches when you can see what you're doing, and
there's no small stuff in the way to deflect the machine into your
crutch. Full training and protective gear are basic essentials. The
man who tried to sell you one should be reported to the Trading
Standards Office, if not the Police.
In any case, trimming through flexible stuff in a hedge with one
wouldn't even work.
The DIY shed will sell you a cable connector for a couple of quid.
--
Mike.
| |
| Road_Hog® 2005-10-19, 7:21 pm |
|
"Charlie Brown" <charlie.brown@newbury.net> wrote in message
news:4356b0be$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
Question! what is the difference (apart from the obvious) between
> using a chain saw and a trimmer for doing the same type of work i.e.
> cropping back bushes and scrub etc? - will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
> NO.
> I would appreciate a quick reply so that I can buy one tomorrow and save
> me a few days of my holiday!!
A chainsaw cuts branches, logs etc, a hedgetrimmer cuts hedges, bushes etc.
One is a saw to cut through objects, like you would use a handheld
wood/metal saw. The other has blades that cut through the surrounds, much
like an electric shaver on your face.
| |
| Tumbleweed 2005-10-19, 7:21 pm |
| "Charlie Brown" <charlie.brown@newbury.net> wrote in message
news:4356b0be$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> Hi
>
> I have just started my 2 weeks holiday and I need to clear my garden of 10
> years worth of neglect (we have just moved in). To make matters worse, I
> just cut through the cable of the hedge trimmer. I went to buy a petrol
> driven type but they didn't have one - the guy said he had plenty of chain
> saws. Question! what is the difference (apart from the obvious) between
> using a chain saw and a trimmer for doing the same type of work i.e.
> cropping back bushes and scrub etc? - will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
No it will not do it all all or be really crap. You either need a HT and a
small hand saw, or both plus a chainsaw depending upon how big the
branches/trunks are and how much there is. Dont forget to factor into the
cost of the chainsaw, £25 on chain mail gloves. Seriously. And a spare chain
(hit one nail or one stone and the chain will blunt instantly, if you dont
have a spare that may be the rest of the day gone while you get it
sharpened or a new one. Or just spend longer with a handsaw.
--
Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
| |
| Charlie Brown 2005-10-19, 8:21 pm |
| Thanks guys for everything. A chain saw is not for me. If it weren't for
you, people like me could do themselves serious injury, I am amazed
retailers are allowed to sell these things to just anybody. I guess I'll
stick to the old fashion way and just take my time....
thanks again
Charlie
"Tumbleweed" <thisaccountneverread@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3rntmvFki10jU1@individual.net...
> "Charlie Brown" <charlie.brown@newbury.net> wrote in message
> news:4356b0be$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>
> No it will not do it all all or be really crap. You either need a HT and a
> small hand saw, or both plus a chainsaw depending upon how big the
> branches/trunks are and how much there is. Dont forget to factor into the
> cost of the chainsaw, £25 on chain mail gloves. Seriously. And a spare
> chain (hit one nail or one stone and the chain will blunt instantly, if
> you dont have a spare that may be the rest of the day gone while you get
> it sharpened or a new one. Or just spend longer with a handsaw.
>
> --
> Tumbleweed
>
> email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
>
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-19, 8:21 pm |
| The message <4356b0be$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>
from "Charlie Brown" <charlie.brown@newbury.net> contains these words:
> I have just started my 2 weeks holiday and I need to clear my garden of 10
> years worth of neglect (we have just moved in). To make matters worse, I
> just cut through the cable of the hedge trimmer. I went to buy a petrol
> driven type but they didn't have one - the guy said he had plenty of chain
> saws. Question! what is the difference (apart from the obvious) between
> using a chain saw and a trimmer for doing the same type of work i.e.
> cropping back bushes and scrub etc? - will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
> I would appreciate a quick reply so that I can buy one tomorrow and save me
> a few days of my holiday!!
If you've never used a chainsaw before, forget about it - they're not
things to trifle with.
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Janet Baraclough 2005-10-19, 9:21 pm |
| The message <4356b0be$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>
from "Charlie Brown" <charlie.brown@newbury.net> contains these words:
> Hi
> I have just started my 2 weeks holiday and I need to clear my garden of 10
> years worth of neglect (we have just moved in). To make matters worse, I
> just cut through the cable of the hedge trimmer. I went to buy a petrol
> driven type but they didn't have one - the guy said he had plenty of chain
> saws. Question! what is the difference (apart from the obvious) between
> using a chain saw and a trimmer for doing the same type of work i.e.
> cropping back bushes and scrub etc? - will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
No. It's likely to snarl up and take your face off.
If , to make a sale, he implied a hedgetrimmer and chainsaw are
interchangeable tools for your job, then congratulations. You've had a
narrow escape. Without having made an expensive mistake, you have
identified someone who does not know his stock, does not care for your
safety, knows damn all about garden maintenance, and even less about
machine maintenance. Don't do business with him; find someone else.
Janet
| |
| WaltA 2005-10-20, 12:21 am |
| On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:28:37 +0100, "Charlie Brown" wrote:
>Thanks guys for everything. A chain saw is not for me. If it weren't for
>you, people like me could do themselves serious injury,
I am amazed at some of the doom-mongers and nay-sayers that have
posted replies.
If you look at the mechanisms side by side and cannot work out the
mode of operation of the two devices and their appropriate
applications then I agree with you that a chain saw is not for you.
> I am amazed
>retailers are allowed to sell these things to just anybody.
Oh dear, yet another embryo EU ban in the making, to deny to competent
people those things which may decapitate incompetent people !
I hope you are not contemplating a career in politics ?!
Just look what they did to shredders ,,,
I bought my first chain saw (a small Danarm) in about 1970
I currently use a rather larger Stihl.
I am still here ! I have never injured myself (nor anyone else for
that matter !!) with them.
I am self taught.
I treat them with respect, but I dont fall over in a quivering heap at
the sight of one, like some of the other posters hereabouts.
I use (have used) them on anything from 1in. to 2ft. diameter, 2 to
80 ft. high.
I don't use them on anything that could, if I make a mistake, fall on
anyone else's property or personage. It can upset them !
| |
| WaltA 2005-10-20, 12:21 am |
| On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:56:18 +0100, "Tumbleweed" wrote:
>chain will blunt instantly, if you dont
>have a spare that may be the rest of the day gone while you get it
>sharpened
Leaving aside, for the moment, the possibilities of nails, barbed
wire, remnants of other fencing wires etc. destroying chains
( yes, I agree a spare is handy)
but the business bits do blunt under normal operations anyway, and one
always has a round file to hand to do the sharpening oneself, as part
of normal operations. Tedious work, but not a loss of "the rest of the
day" ! It is work that can be done 'by eye' with the usual cuppa'
whilst contemplating the next bit of the job !
The serious 'getting the angles just-so' part of maintaining the chain
can be left till the next evening in the workshop.
| |
|
| On 19 Oct 2005 20:54:23 GMT,Nick Maclaren wrote:
>Be sure to buy a few spare legs, the odd spare arm and a spare neck
>or two.
Rubbish, pandering to legislators, do-gooders and cotton wool
manufacts.. !
>Plus the odd gallon of blood.
Sell it to H. F-W to make TV programmes about blackpuddings.
> It is AMAZING what you can
>cut through with a chainsaw.
It is AMAZING what the incompetent can do with allsorsafings,
including zippers on trousers 
>Alternatively, you could go to an agricultural merchant or GOOD
>garden centre, and buy some hand tools (shears, a billhook and/or
>machete, a sickle (not a grass hook), a hand axe
Mon dieu, u canna be serious ! u can remove a finger, or hand , with
one of they ! (Or, if ingenious some other part of one's anatomy)
> some secateurs
>and some loppers). Then drop in at the off-licence and stock up
>on beer.
Sounds a good plan to me
Except that I frequently lose my secateurs in the undergrowth, so I
suggest the local cheapshop/allsorts for about £1.99, some of them are
good, compared to £15 or more for a named brand secateur.
>It's all a matter of taste, really.
Or Darwinian evolution :-?)
Actually, in danger of destroying my own reputation for omnipotence,,,
I have drawn more blood with secateurs than with chain saws !
It all comes down(I think) to respect, chain saws command serriuss
reespekt, secateurs are used casually, often.
| |
|
| Janet & others wrote:
[color=darkred]
> No. It's likely to snarl up and take your face off.
Rubbish
Alarmism
Whilst there are some circumstances, while dealing incorrectly with
real timber, that kickback could do a facial injury, "take your face
off" is an emotive and unlikely (seriously incompetent like not
noticing a tree) result of hedge trimming.
> If , to make a sale, he implied a hedgetrimmer and chainsaw are
>interchangeable tools for your job, then congratulations. You've had a
>narrow escape. Without having made an expensive mistake, you have
>identified someone who does not know his stock, does not care for your
>safety, knows damn all about garden maintenance, and even less about
>machine maintenance. Don't do business with him; find someone else.
In this regard I do agree with you.
| |
| Tumbleweed 2005-10-20, 4:21 am |
|
"WaltA" <please@dontspam.nothere.com> wrote in message
news:4357094b.18886667@text.news.ntlworld.com...
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:56:18 +0100, "Tumbleweed" wrote:
>
> Leaving aside, for the moment, the possibilities of nails, barbed
> wire, remnants of other fencing wires etc. destroying chains
> ( yes, I agree a spare is handy)
> but the business bits do blunt under normal operations anyway, and one
> always has a round file to hand to do the sharpening oneself, as part
> of normal operations. Tedious work, but not a loss of "the rest of the
> day" ! It is work that can be done 'by eye' with the usual cuppa'
> whilst contemplating the next bit of the job !
>
> The serious 'getting the angles just-so' part of maintaining the chain
> can be left till the next evening in the workshop.
>
I'm sorry but you appear to have confused me with a competent DIY person,
that would have a round file, and would know where it is, would known what
an angle is, and would have a workshop. And that would be able to do
something useful with all those.
--
Tumbleweed
email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
| |
| Cicero 2005-10-20, 4:21 am |
|
"Charlie Brown" <charlie.brown@newbury.net> wrote in message
news:4356b0be$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> Hi
>
> I have just started my 2 weeks holiday and I need to clear my garden of 10
> years worth of neglect (we have just moved in). To make matters worse, I
> just cut through the cable of the hedge trimmer. I went to buy a petrol
> driven type but they didn't have one - the guy said he had plenty of chain
> saws. Question! what is the difference (apart from the obvious) between
> using a chain saw and a trimmer for doing the same type of work i.e.
> cropping back bushes and scrub etc? - will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
> I would appreciate a quick reply so that I can buy one tomorrow and save
me
> a few days of my holiday!!
>
> thanks in advance
>
> Charlie
>
=================
I found a reciprocating saw very useful when clearing a seriously overgrown
garden. You can buy one for about £30-00 and it's much less dangerous than a
chainsaw.
Despite the 'gung-ho' attitude of some posters towards chainsaws they can be
very dangerous and they do need to be used with great care even by
experienced users.
Cic.
| |
| penance 2005-10-20, 5:21 am |
|
Charlie Brown Wrote:
> Thanks guys for everything. A chain saw is not for me. If it weren't
> for
> you, people like me could do themselves serious injury, I am amazed
> retailers are allowed to sell these things to just anybody. I guess
> I'll
> stick to the old fashion way and just take my time....
>
> thanks again
>
> Charlie
>
Unfortunatly the law concerning chainsaws does not cover domestic use.
To use comercialy you need certificates, for domestic use you just need
to have the money.
The only exception to that is top handled saws, these may only be
purchased by someone who holds the relevant rope and harness cert.
--
penance
| |
|
| On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:01:59 +0100, "Tumbleweed" wrote:
>I'm sorry but you appear to have confused me with a competent DIY person,
>that would have a round file, and would know where it is, would known what
>an angle is, and would have a workshop. And that would be able to do
>something useful with all those.
:-))
| |
|
| On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:46:54 +0100, "Charlie Brown" <charlie.brown@newbury.net> wrote:
>Hi
>
>I have just started my 2 weeks holiday and I need to clear my garden of 10
>years worth of neglect (we have just moved in). To make matters worse, I
>just cut through the cable of the hedge trimmer. I went to buy a petrol
>driven type but they didn't have one - the guy said he had plenty of chain
>saws. Question! what is the difference (apart from the obvious) between
>using a chain saw and a trimmer for doing the same type of work i.e.
>cropping back bushes and scrub etc? - will a chain saw TRIM a hedge?
>I would appreciate a quick reply so that I can buy one tomorrow and save me
>a few days of my holiday!!
>
>thanks in advance
>
>Charlie
>
I have just bought one of these..
http://www.gonegardening.com/xq/ASP...hop/product.htm
It's great for all sorts of things, including, cutting long grass, and tall hedges
Rick...
| |
|
| On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:36:15 +0000, penance wrote:
>The only exception to that is top handled saws, these may only be
>purchased by someone who holds the relevant rope and harness cert.
Yes.
And a great pity it was that this was introduced.
It meant that I could not replace my excellent little top handled
Danarm (that did everything that I needed) when the original got
beyond repair.
I had to replace it with a much larger much more dangerous two-handed
Sthil:-(
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-20, 12:21 pm |
| The message <4357094b.18886667@text.news.ntlworld.com>
from please@dontspam.nothere.com (WaltA) contains these words:
> Leaving aside, for the moment, the possibilities of nails, barbed
> wire, remnants of other fencing wires etc. destroying chains
> ( yes, I agree a spare is handy)
> but the business bits do blunt under normal operations anyway, and one
> always has a round file to hand to do the sharpening oneself, as part
> of normal operations. Tedious work, but not a loss of "the rest of the
> day" ! It is work that can be done 'by eye' with the usual cuppa'
> whilst contemplating the next bit of the job !
> The serious 'getting the angles just-so' part of maintaining the chain
> can be left till the next evening in the workshop.
Thoroughly agree, but the OP wanted to do the job 'now, if not sooner',
so to speak. I've been using the things since the mid to late 'fifties,
and without problems, but I've heard of plenty of people who haven't
been so lucky/careful.
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Mike Lyle 2005-10-20, 12:21 pm |
| WaltA wrote:
> On 19 Oct 2005 20:54:23 GMT,Nick Maclaren wrote:
neck[color=darkred]
>
> Rubbish, pandering to legislators, do-gooders and cotton wool
> manufacts.. !
Well, not having a machismo problem, I prefer do-gooders to
do-badders, any day. There are far too many of these do-badders going
round interfering with my peaceful way of life.
>
>
> Sell it to H. F-W to make TV programmes about blackpuddings.
>
>
> It is AMAZING what the incompetent can do with allsorsafings,
> including zippers on trousers
Precisely. And till one's had the ATB or comparable training, one is
incompetent: that's not an insult, it's just a neutral fact. You and
I were an incompetent drivers till we'd had lessons, too: I hope you
don't think driving licences are an evil government intrusion on the
liberty of the citizen. People don't all know intuitively which side
to start a cut, or when the saw's dangerously blunt, or when the
chain's worked loose, or how to strip the machine down and do a
service.
I was self-taught when it came to zippers. Fortunately, the first
and -- so far -- last error didn't leave a scar!
>
> Mon dieu, u canna be serious ! u can remove a finger, or hand ,
with
> one of they ! (Or, if ingenious some other part of one's anatomy)
[...]
Yes; but they stop cutting after the first bite, and stop moving when
they hit the ground.
--
Mike.
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-10-20, 12:21 pm |
|
In article <31303030323030384357ADB625@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>,
Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> writes:
|> The message <4357094b.18886667@text.news.ntlworld.com>
|> from please@dontspam.nothere.com (WaltA) contains these words:
|>
|> > The serious 'getting the angles just-so' part of maintaining the chain
|> > can be left till the next evening in the workshop.
|>
|> Thoroughly agree, but the OP wanted to do the job 'now, if not sooner',
|> so to speak. I've been using the things since the mid to late 'fifties,
|> and without problems, but I've heard of plenty of people who haven't
|> been so lucky/careful.
He was also talking about clearing scrub, which is extremely
likely to have something unexpected in it, and trimming hedges,
which usually means holding the implement fairly high. It is
also fairly common to find unexpected metal posts in hedges.
Using a chainsaw on logs on a sawhorse is one thing; such abuses
are very much another.
If someone of normal strength (i.e. weakness) is trimming a
hedge with a chainsaw at head height and hits an unexpected
metal post, it may well kick out of his hands. If that happens,
then taking his face off is indeed quite likely. Or indeed
taking his head off. Even at a low height, a chainsaw in the
inner thigh is quite likely to cut the femoral artery, whereupon
there isn't much point in calling an ambulance.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-20, 3:21 pm |
| The message <3rpmd1FkdljkU1@individual.net>
from "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> contains these words:
> I was self-taught when it came to zippers. Fortunately, the first
> and -- so far -- last error didn't leave a scar!
The Ole' Man went to his younger daughter's wedding with decorum secured
by safety pins.
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-20, 3:21 pm |
| The message <dj8902$5mi$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
> If someone of normal strength (i.e. weakness) is trimming a
> hedge with a chainsaw at head height and hits an unexpected
> metal post, it may well kick out of his hands. If that happens,
> then taking his face off is indeed quite likely. Or indeed
> taking his head off.
Not with a modern saw - it wiyld have stopped by the time it hit you -
but it might leave a nasty gash.
> Even at a low height, a chainsaw in the
> inner thigh is quite likely to cut the femoral artery, whereupon
> there isn't much point in calling an ambulance.
That *IS* a hazard, though you'd have to be pretty inept to sustain such
an injury.
Someone I knew was helping his father cut logs with a circular saw. He
only noticed he had three missing fingers when he saw the blood.
That was *HIS* carreer in the Lifeguards over.
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-10-20, 4:21 pm |
| In article <31303030323030384357EC2622@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>,
Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> wrote:
>The message <dj8902$5mi$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
>from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
>
>
>Not with a modern saw - it wiyld have stopped by the time it hit you -
>but it might leave a nasty gash.
My observations of people using modern chainsaws is that is not true.
When a tool like that kicks back in that position, it will hit you
in a fraction of a second (perhaps a tenth), and the saws just don't
stop that fast. Also, that is so fast that it is possible that
their "control finger" is still in place even if they are not
holding it, by the time it hits.
That experience is confirmed by using certain (non-saw) drill
attachments, where both effects also occur, but the likely damage
is VASTLY less (e.g. abrasion of clothes and skin).
What stopping time do they claim?
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| penance 2005-10-20, 5:21 pm |
|
WaltA Wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:36:15 +0000, penance wrote:
>
> The only exception to that is top handled saws, these may only be
> purchased by someone who holds the relevant rope and harness cert.
>
> Yes.
> And a great pity it was that this was introduced.
> It meant that I could not replace my excellent little top handled
> Danarm (that did everything that I needed) when the original got
> beyond repair.
> I had to replace it with a much larger much more dangerous two-handed
> Sthil:-(
Not at all, the larger the saw the safer, as it is less likely to kick
back if the wrong part of the bar is used, also 2 handed use helps to
reduce the chances.
Top handled saws are for a specific use and should stay that way.
--
penance
| |
| penance 2005-10-20, 5:21 pm |
|
WaltA Wrote:
> I am self taught.
> !
Then you are not competant (by industry standards).
--
penance
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-20, 7:21 pm |
| The message <dj8nt7$7pm$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
[color=darkred]
> My observations of people using modern chainsaws is that is not true.
> When a tool like that kicks back in that position, it will hit you
> in a fraction of a second (perhaps a tenth), and the saws just don't
> stop that fast. Also, that is so fast that it is possible that
> their "control finger" is still in place even if they are not
> holding it, by the time it hits.
Only if you still have your finger on the 'trigger' and your hand
gripping the safety-bar.
> That experience is confirmed by using certain (non-saw) drill
> attachments, where both effects also occur, but the likely damage
> is VASTLY less (e.g. abrasion of clothes and skin).
They wouldn't have a brake like modern chainsaws. (I've never been
allowed to use one of them because I've always been in the company of my
fiend the gamekeeper, and he has to observe all the regulations - I'm
not covered, even though I was using chaisaws before he was a gleam in
his father's eye.)
> What stopping time do they claim?
I don't know what they claim, but a demonstration showed almost instant
stopping - less than half a second, I'd say.
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-10-21, 6:21 am |
| In article <31303030323030384358078E16@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>,
Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> wrote:
>The message <dj8nt7$7pm$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
>from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
>
>
>
>Only if you still have your finger on the 'trigger' and your hand
>gripping the safety-bar.
That is what I am saying is implausible. Firstly, the chain will
take a finite amount of time to stop. Secondly, it is common when
a tool kicks back out of your hands for your hands to be in the
control position but not holding the tool for a fraction of a
second. Yound hands and arms may be moved with it, if you are of
normal strength, er, weakness.
>
>They wouldn't have a brake like modern chainsaws. (I've never been
>allowed to use one of them because I've always been in the company of my
>fiend the gamekeeper, and he has to observe all the regulations - I'm
>not covered, even though I was using chaisaws before he was a gleam in
>his father's eye.)
I was not referring to that, but to my estimates of the time taken
from hitting something solid until it hits you, and to my statement
that you hands can remain holding the switches on even after you
have lost control.
>
>I don't know what they claim, but a demonstration showed almost instant
>stopping - less than half a second, I'd say.
That I would believe, but it is FAR too long. Even ignoring the 'hands
still holding it on' effect, a maximum of 1/20th second is needed for
safety. I don't believe that you could hold a chainsaw against the
torsion when stopping if it did it that fast.
Seriously.
Remember that I was referring to the case of using it as a hedge
cutter at head height, where it might hit an iron post while being
1' from your face. It is THAT that I was saying was complete
insanity.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-21, 7:21 am |
| The message <dja8ma$bnr$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
/snip/
[color=darkred]
> That I would believe, but it is FAR too long.
It's not exactly travelling at the speed of light^H^H^a bullet.
> Even ignoring the 'hands
> still holding it on' effect, a maximum of 1/20th second is needed for
> safety. I don't believe that you could hold a chainsaw against the
> torsion when stopping if it did it that fast.
Nonsense! Even the torsion of a big saw (like the 36" Pioneer I learned
on) is tiddly when it stops, or when you accelerate from tick-over to
full-chat. Even the torsion from my R80 (800cc) BMW is pretty puny when
you gun it. The ratio of the weight of a chainsaw to the inertia of the
moving parts (some of which will cancel each-other anyway) is small.
> Seriously.
Yes, seriously. In fifty years of using chainsaws I have never noticed
any vicious inertia effects.
> Remember that I was referring to the case of using it as a hedge
> cutter at head height, where it might hit an iron post while being
> 1' from your face. It is THAT that I was saying was complete
> insanity.
Oh, I agree that for that application it would be madness to use a
chainsaw, but you created the scenario as a rather extreme example of
what not to do innit. I've no doubt you *COULD* use a chainsaw to cut
the lawn, or trim your beard...
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-10-21, 8:21 am |
|
In article <31303030323030384358C33189@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>,
Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> writes:
|>
|> > >I don't know what they claim, but a demonstration showed almost instant
|> > >stopping - less than half a second, I'd say.
|>
|> > That I would believe, but it is FAR too long.
|>
|> It's not exactly travelling at the speed of light^H^H^a bullet.
1' in 1/20th second is under 14 MPH. That is an extremely likely
speed for the business end to flip back if it hits an iron bar.
|> Nonsense! Even the torsion of a big saw (like the 36" Pioneer I learned
|> on) is tiddly when it stops, or when you accelerate from tick-over to
|> full-chat. Even the torsion from my R80 (800cc) BMW is pretty puny when
|> you gun it. The ratio of the weight of a chainsaw to the inertia of the
|> moving parts (some of which will cancel each-other anyway) is small.
Not that small. I don't know what the weight of the chain is, but
it will probably be 4-8 oz for a 10 lb saw. At 2,500 RPM (and some
go higher), stopping in 1/20th of a second is about 3 foot-pounds.
Not a problem if you are expecting it, but quite enough to make
you lose your grip if you are not.
Your statement about gunning it is irrelevant, as I don't believe
that it goes from nothing to full speed in 1/20th second.
Alternatively, using some reasonable estimates of moments of inertia
(most of the mass is pretty well concentrated), 2500 RPM translates
into the top of the blade moving at about 10 feet/sec (EXCLUDING
any effect of hitting a bar). That is 1/10th second to travel a
foot.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Mike Lyle 2005-10-21, 8:21 am |
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <31303030323030384358C33189@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>,
> Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> writes:
[...moments of inertia an' 'at...]
Any road oop, they're dangerous.
--
Mike.
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-10-21, 9:21 am |
|
In article <3rs0qbFkn7p6U1@individual.net>,
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes:
|> Nick Maclaren wrote:
|> > In article <31303030323030384358C33189@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>,
|> > Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> writes:
|> [...moments of inertia an' 'at...]
|>
|> Any road oop, they're dangerous.
Or, at least, are when used inappropriately. Which is where we
came in. I would have little hesitation using one to cut up
logs on a sawbench, but baulk at anything beyond that, as I am
not strong enough in the arms. Others might be safe cutting
trees down and up, standing on the ground, but not up ladders.
And so on. Using them as hedge- and brush-cutters is definitely
a dangerous use.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Janet Baraclough 2005-10-21, 12:21 pm |
| The message <31303030323030384358078E16@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>
from Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> contains these
words:
> I don't know what they claim, but a demonstration showed almost instant
> stopping - less than half a second, I'd say.
Oh..so are chainsaw kickback accidents a thing of the past, do you suppose?
Janet
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-10-21, 2:21 pm |
| In article <313030303230303843591A0C54@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>,
Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> wrote:
>
>
>The effective momentum of a chain stopping suddenly is zero, as all the
>forces cancel. The only 'kick' you'll get is if you are pressing towards
>the job, in which case the 'kick' will be in line with the bar and
>towards you. Any other torque will be produced by the rotating and
>reciprocating parts of the engine, most of which will also cancel
>each-other.
There is a principle known as the conservation of angular momentum,
which you may have forgotten after all those years!
I was estimating the effect of the transfer of the momentum of the
chain to the saw as a whole. Yes, it is POSSIBLE that the design
is as perfectly balanced as the wonderful one-horse shay, but I
have my doubts.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-21, 5:21 pm |
| The message <djb7p0$n9n$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
> There is a principle known as the conservation of angular momentum,
> which you may have forgotten after all those years!
Which is taken out on the teeth if the chain suddenly stops because of a
nail, etc.
That either results in bent or chipped teeth (on the chain), or a lot of heat.
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| WaltA 2005-10-22, 12:21 am |
| On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:30:47 +0000, penance wrote:
>WaltA Wrote:
[color=darkred]
>Then you are not competant (by industry standards).
I know !! That is why I could not replace my Danarm with a
chainsaw of my choice !
The regs were not in place when I bought the Danarm,
or maybe they were but my vendor didnt bother at that time ! ?
Do you know when the prohibition on top handled saws came in ?
| |
| WaltA 2005-10-22, 12:21 am |
| On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:27:44 +0000, penance wrote:
>WaltA Wrote:
[color=darkred]
>Not at all, the larger the saw the safer,
I spy a small misunderstanding,
I meant that I was more dangerous with the bigger more powerful Sthil
because it meant that I could now tackle bigger trees (and some have
been really really big) without needing to call in "the man"
> as it is less likely to kick
>back if the wrong part of the bar is used,
I've never had a problem with kickback, even when hitting steel bands
buried in a conifer.
also 2 handed use helps to
>reduce the chances.
>Top handled saws are for a specific use and should stay that way.
Agreed. Not disputed. If you had said "specific user" then I would
have disputed. I used my danarm for specific uses
If we are going to ban the use of chainsaws by the incompetent
then I suggest that we should ban hedge trimmers as well, especially
the littler cheaper ones which your cheapskate average urban gardener
is probably going to buy, I mean, look at the damage those can do to
fingers; and to electric cables fed through windows and plugged into
non-rcb power sockets !!
Come to think on it, praps we should ban gardens for Mr/s J.Bull ?
Horribly hazardous !
Right, that's it, campaign in support of towerblocks with no opening
windows, nor balconies, for the proletariat !
| |
|
| On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:46:14 +0100, Jaques wrote:
> (WaltA) contains these words:
[color=darkred]
>Thoroughly agree, but the OP wanted to do the job 'now, if not sooner',
Yes
And that is another problem, haste and power tools are not compatible.
We have already determined that OP is not competent (by his own
admission, he cut through the cable, forg*dss*%k,) now he wants a
petrol driven thing !
Mindyou, I regular had to go mend the cable of my next-door
hedgetrimer extrodinair, but he survived to 93y of age ( which must
speak well for my repairs ! , or something !!)
OP wanted to clear , how many years of neglect was it (?) not just
hedges.
(A) you should see some of my (laurel & beech) hedges at 20 to 40ft
high, they need a chainsaw !
(B) you should see the scrub wot grows in the nether regions of my
'garden' after 10y !! We burn logs from it.
>so to speak. I've been using the things since the mid to late 'fifties,
>and without problems, but I've heard of plenty of people who haven't
>been so lucky/careful.
Yes, some of our ancestors fell out of trees as well.
Sadly they seem to have managed to procreate first :-!) and their
progeny to become legislators 
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-22, 9:21 am |
| The message <4359b30a.9686113@text.news.ntlworld.com>
from please@dontspam.nothere.com (WaltA) contains these words:
/chainsaw off/
> Yes, some of our ancestors fell out of trees as well.
> Sadly they seem to have managed to procreate first :-!) and their
> progeny to become legislators
You don't think legislators grow on trees, do you?
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-10-22, 9:21 am |
| In article <3130303032303038435A262999@foobar.zetnet.co.ok>,
Jaques d'Alltrades <rusty.hinge@foobar.zetnet.co.ok> wrote:
>The message <4359b30a.9686113@text.news.ntlworld.com>
>from please@dontspam.nothere.com (WaltA) contains these words:
>
>/chainsaw off/
>
>
>You don't think legislators grow on trees, do you?
No, their reproductive habits are closer to those of viruses and
prions than any higher form of life. People start off as human
beings attempting to make some changes to benefit all or part of
humanity, and the contact with legislators turns them into more
of the same.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| WaltA 2005-10-22, 10:21 am |
| On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:44:41 +0100, we wrote:
[color=darkred]
>You don't think legislators grow on trees, do you?
lol!
No, but their mothers are probably still climbing about in trees,,;)
Actually, there seem to be too many of them, so praps they do grow on
trees after all ??
| |
| penance 2005-10-22, 11:21 am |
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WaltA Wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:30:47 +0000, penance wrote:
> WaltA Wrote:
> I am self taught.
>
> Then you are not competant (by industry standards).
>
> I know !! That is why I could not replace my Danarm with a
> chainsaw of my choice !
> The regs were not in place when I bought the Danarm,
>
> or maybe they were but my vendor didnt bother at that time ! ?
> Do you know when the prohibition on top handled saws came in ?
From my bad memory i think it was around '97, just after i finished my
training. Yes it was due to the EU legislation coming to the UK.
> I spy a small misunderstanding,
> I meant that I was more dangerous with the bigger more powerful Sthil
> because it meant that I could now tackle bigger trees (and some have
> been really really big) without needing to call in "the man"
>
>
Sorry, i thought you meant the saw itself, not the job you might tackle
with it.
When you say that you had a specific use for your top handled saw, was
that using it from a rope an harness?
--
penance
| |
|
| On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:56:39 +0000, we variously wrote:
[color=darkred]
>From my bad memory i think it was around '97, just after i finished my
>training. Yes it was due to the EU legislation coming to the UK.
Ah that could be about right (my memory isnt all that good these days
either)
B*&^% EU , dont start me ,,,
[color=darkred]
>Sorry, i thought you meant the saw itself, not the job you might tackle
>with it.
My sorry also for my bad english/composition
But actually, now you cause me to think about it, yes, the bigger one
is more dangerous, it could break a toe if I let go of it, the Danarm
was much lighter
Cue questions about footwear,
no, please, no more regulations,,,
>When you say that you had a specific use for your top handled saw, was
>that using it from a rope an harness?
Ooooh! that's a leading question yeronner !
Do I have to answerv
Can I remain silent Mr Blair
5th please
Next you'll be wanting to know if I wear a seat belt whilst driving my
car !
| |
| Mike Lyle 2005-10-22, 6:21 pm |
| WaltA wrote:
[...]
> Next you'll be wanting to know if I wear a seat belt whilst driving
my
> car !
You've no idea how fervently I was hoping you weren't going to say
that. And do you realise that damn' EC is going to try to force us to
stop at red lights?
--
Mike.
| |
|
| On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:58:21 +0100, "Mike Lyle" wrote:
>WaltA wrote:
>[...]
>my
>
>You've no idea how fervently I was hoping you weren't going to say
>that. And do you realise that damn' EC is going to try to force us to
>stop at red lights?
Pardon ?
Did you think that I said that I didn't wear a seat belt ?
Did you think that I said that I did not use a rope or harness ?
Praps you should read what I did write, I poked fun at the way he
asked the question and I declined to answer, that is all.
I said nothing about what I actually did or did not do in cars or up
trees. Indeed I did not even say if I owned or drove a car, nor
anything about my feet leaving the ground !
Sometimes it is just too easy to push peoples buttons :-!)
To not stop at a red light, what a curious idea.
| |
| Mike Lyle 2005-10-22, 7:21 pm |
| WaltA wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:58:21 +0100, "Mike Lyle" wrote:
driving[color=darkred]
to[color=darkred]
>
> Pardon ?
> Did you think that I said that I didn't wear a seat belt ?
> Did you think that I said that I did not use a rope or harness ?
>
> Praps you should read what I did write, I poked fun at the way he
> asked the question and I declined to answer, that is all.
> I said nothing about what I actually did or did not do in cars or
up
> trees. Indeed I did not even say if I owned or drove a car, nor
> anything about my feet leaving the ground !
>
> Sometimes it is just too easy to push peoples buttons :-!)
>
> To not stop at a red light, what a curious idea.
Ah, I misunderstood. Good. Sorry.
--
Mike.
| |
|
| On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:36:13 +0100, we wrote:
>
>Ah, I misunderstood. Good. Sorry.
No prob.
Erm, staying a bit OT for a moment longer, I'm not sure I should say
this next bit for fear of being misunderstood ;-) again :-)
I always stop at a red light, but I didn't say anything about not
starting up again :-!)
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-10-22, 8:21 pm |
| The message <3rvng9Fi609iU1@individual.net>
from "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> contains these words:
> WaltA wrote:
> [...]
> my
[color=darkred]
> You've no idea how fervently I was hoping you weren't going to say
> that. And do you realise that damn' EC is going to try to force us to
> stop at red lights?
It's all the fault of O'Grady!
He was taking his driving test and the examiner asked him what the
single yellow line along the edge of the road was.
"No parking at all." replied O'Grady, promptly.
"And what do the double yellow lines on the other side of the road
mean?" asked the examiner.
"That's aisy," replied O'Grady: "no parking at all, at all."
So...
--
Rusty
horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
|
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