UK gardening - Global warming? "Evidence" from my garden?

Author

Global warming? "Evidence" from my garden?

Steve Harris

2005-08-19, 9:21 pm

1. A have a lungwort that normally flowers in spring. It's just sent up
a couple of stalks with buds on them
2. I have a Cyclamen Coum in flower (no leaves)

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
A useful bit of gardening software at http://www.netservs.com/garden/

Cereus-validus.......

2005-08-20, 3:21 am

Is that really enough evidence for an indictment?

"Steve Harris" <root@netservs.com> wrote in message
news:memo.20050820010241.65149E@net-services.default...
> 1. A have a lungwort that normally flowers in spring. It's just sent up
> a couple of stalks with buds on them
> 2. I have a Cyclamen Coum in flower (no leaves)
>
> Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
> A useful bit of gardening software at http://www.netservs.com/garden/

Glittery Gary

2005-08-20, 4:21 am

"Cereus-validus......." <fashizzle.yourself@spam.net> wrote in message
news:TszNe.3953$r54.2288@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> Is that really enough evidence for an indictment?
>
>
> "Steve Harris" <root@netservs.com> wrote in message
> news:memo.20050820010241.65149E@net-services.default...
>
>

it is in Europe now..............

michael adams

2005-08-20, 1:21 pm

"Cereus-validus......." <fashizzle.yourself@spam.net> wrote in message
news:TszNe.3953$r54.2288@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...

> Is that really enough evidence for an indictment?

Whether it is or not, nobody can really argue against melting ice
caps at the Poles, rising sea levels, or an expanding hole in the
ozone layer.

There are claims even among Global Warming supporting
meteorologists that the present European droughts and heatwaves
are merely features of a recurrent 60 yr(?) cycle. Because ironically
global warming is expected to adversly affect the Gulf Stream
and make Western Europe more subject to cold air currents from
the Central Asian landmass to the East.

michael adams

>
>
> "Steve Harris" <root@netservs.com> wrote in message
> news:memo.20050820010241.65149E@net-services.default...
>

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-20, 2:21 pm

In article <3mp2c3F17vkcuU1@individual.net>,
michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
>
>There are claims even among Global Warming supporting
>meteorologists that the present European droughts and heatwaves
>are merely features of a recurrent 60 yr(?) cycle. Because ironically
>global warming is expected to adversly affect the Gulf Stream
>and make Western Europe more subject to cold air currents from
>the Central Asian landmass to the East.

Oh, God, not cyclemania again :-( As with most other areas where
people have claimed to discover cycles (and the reason is not
obvious), there is damn-all evidence for them. Most of the time
the series is almost certainly an ARIMA model of sorts (think of
that as a correlated random walk).

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Mike Lyle

2005-08-20, 3:21 pm

Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <3mp2c3F17vkcuU1@individual.net>,
> michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
ironically[color=darkred]
>
> Oh, God, not cyclemania again :-( As with most other areas where
> people have claimed to discover cycles (and the reason is not
> obvious), there is damn-all evidence for them. Most of the time
> the series is almost certainly an ARIMA model of sorts (think of
> that as a correlated random walk).

I'll say this for it, though: pdq does mean "pretty damn quick".

--
Mike.

michael adams

2005-08-20, 3:21 pm

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:de7o8t$gnp$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> In article <3mp2c3F17vkcuU1@individual.net>,
> michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
> Oh, God, not cyclemania again :-( As with most other areas where
> people have claimed to discover cycles (and the reason is not
> obvious), there is damn-all evidence for them. Most of the time
> the series is almost certainly an ARIMA model of sorts (think of
> that as a correlated random walk).

....

Any extrapolation of climate change based only on around 100 years
worth of hard data of varying quality and reliabilty will
of necessity require a fair amount of conjecture.

If you're of the opinion that your conjecture is superior to that
of the meteorologists whose opinion I quoted then good for you.

All else is hand waving IMHO.

michael adams

....

>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-20, 4:21 pm

In article <3mp8tcF17vfofU1@individual.net>,
michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
>Any extrapolation of climate change based only on around 100 years
>worth of hard data of varying quality and reliabilty will
>of necessity require a fair amount of conjecture.

That is true, but is seriously misleading, because there is a LOT
more data of adequate quality - if you are up to handling it.

>If you're of the opinion that your conjecture is superior to that
>of the meteorologists whose opinion I quoted then good for you.

No, my statement is not conjecture. I am a statistician,
incidentally.

To repeat what I said, there is damn-all evidence for a cyclic
phenomenon in this case and, in situations like this one, almost all
cases of apparent cycles are created by something like an ARIMA
process. I could also add that the observations from previous
centuries are quite good enough in quality to debunk the theory
that there is a single predominant cycle.

While I am pretty rusty in this aspect of statistics, I could still
explain in more detail than I expect you want to know about this
issue.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

michael adams

2005-08-20, 5:21 pm

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:de7u0a$rda$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> In article <3mp8tcF17vfofU1@individual.net>,
> michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
> That is true, but is seriously misleading, because there is a LOT
> more data of adequate quality - if you are up to handling it.
>
>
> No, my statement is not conjecture. I am a statistician,
> incidentally.

....

Jolly good for you!

I do hope you're not looking for a round of applause or anything
at this juncture Mr McLaren. As one of the meteorologists I was
referring to, just happens to be Prof. Mark Saunders of the
Dept. of Space and Climate Physics at UCL.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1533737,00.html

< selective quotes >

Scorched Earth

John Vidal

Friday July 22, 2005

The Guardian

There are severe to moderate droughts affecting all of Portugal,
Spain and southern France, northern Italy, Austria, Hungary and
the northern parts of the former Yugoslavia," says Mark Saunders,
head of climate prediction at the department of space and climate
physics at university college London.

[...]

The real reason for the drought is essentially a lack of rainfall
over the past nine months. In winter and spring, most reservoirs
get replenished, but in the UK, for example, the past six months
have seen barely two-thirds of the average expected rainfall.

Professor Saunders says that the current situation is a result of
natural climate variability. Drought trends going back more than
100 years show this sort of natural cycle repeating itself time
and again. He also rules out global warming as a contributing
factor since it is expected to cause wetter winters.

</quote>

I'm not in the habit of posting unsupported rubbish on NewsGroups
Mr McLaren, despite the fact that I don't provide cites for every
remark and opinion expressed, and I can only suggest you save the
condescension\obfuscation trolls for those who unlike myself, who
are more likely to be impressed by them.

....

< Snipped obfuscation and doomed attempt to impress >

....
>
> While I am pretty rusty in this aspect of statistics, I could still
> explain in more detail than I expect you want to know about this
> issue.
>

....

If on the other hand you do really have serious concerns about
Professor Saunders' entire appproach to this question Mr McLaren,
then I can only suggest you raise the matter direct with him,
by possibly writing to him at UCL.

Or if he too shows little interest in listening to your detailed
argument, maybe making up some placards and chaining yourself to
the railings outside. Until the world shows itself ready to listen
to what you have to say.

Or whatever.

I can't say fairer than that, now can I?

michael adams

....

> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-20, 6:21 pm

The message <de7u0a$rda$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

> I could also add that the observations from previous
> centuries are quite good enough in quality to debunk the theory
> that there is a single predominant cycle.

Quite. I favour Velocette, but others like Triumph...

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-20, 6:21 pm

The message <3mp2c3F17vkcuU1@individual.net>
from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:

> There are claims even among Global Warming supporting
> meteorologists that the present European droughts and heatwaves
> are merely features of a recurrent 60 yr(?) cycle. Because ironically
> global warming is expected to adversly affect the Gulf Stream
> and make Western Europe more subject to cold air currents from
> the Central Asian landmass to the East.

Flippin cold war all over again...

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Mike

2005-08-20, 7:21 pm

adm

2005-08-20, 7:21 pm

"michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote in message
news:3mp8tcF17vfofU1@individual.net...
>
> "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:de7o8t$gnp$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
>
> ...
>
> Any extrapolation of climate change based only on around 100 years
> worth of hard data of varying quality and reliabilty will
> of necessity require a fair amount of conjecture.
>
> If you're of the opinion that your conjecture is superior to that
> of the meteorologists whose opinion I quoted then good for you.
>
> All else is hand waving IMHO.

There is one thing for sure - it's going to get a whole lot hotter around
here in 6 billion years or so.

Alan Holmes

2005-08-20, 7:21 pm

"Jaques d'Alltrades" <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:31303030323030384307984678@foobar.zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <de7u0a$rda$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
> from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
>
>
> Quite. I favour Velocette, but others like Triumph...

I read on teletext today that some ladies are cycling around england on
Harley-Davidson bikes.

I wasn't aware that they made bicycles!

--
Alan

Reply to alan (dot) holmes27 (at) virgin (dot) net

>
> --
> Rusty
> Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
> http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-20, 8:21 pm

In article <3mpfkuF17orl3U1@individual.net>,
michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1533737,00.html

And you are regarded THAT as being an ACCURATE representation of
what he said? Have you NO experience of how scientific statements
get mangled in the press?

>Professor Saunders says that the current situation is a result of
>natural climate variability. Drought trends going back more than
>100 years show this sort of natural cycle repeating itself time
>and again. He also rules out global warming as a contributing
>factor since it is expected to cause wetter winters.

And there you can see it. Assuming that he knows his statistics,
the first sentence is likely to be an accurate representation of
what he said, but the term 'natural cycle' was almost certainly
introduced as a loose description by the reporter.

>I'm not in the habit of posting unsupported rubbish on NewsGroups

Then please don't do so again.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

michael adams

2005-08-20, 8:21 pm

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:de8a8s$l95$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> In article <3mpfkuF17orl3U1@individual.net>,
> michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:

[color=darkred]
>
> And you are regarded THAT as being an ACCURATE representation of
> what he said? Have you NO experience of how scientific statements
> get mangled in the press?

....

I know. We're all conspiring against you.

Newspaper reporters, posters on NewsGroups....

....

>
>
> And there you can see it. Assuming that he knows his statistics,
> the first sentence is likely to be an accurate representation of
> what he said, but the term 'natural cycle' was almost certainly
> introduced as a loose description by the reporter.

....

So if the drought trends aren't decribing 'cycles' precisely what are
they describing ?

And what is it, that's being "repeated" ?

Or again, is it possible for anything to be repeated without that
repetition representing a "cycle".

Or are you now going to claim that the words "drought trends" and
"repeated are total fabrications on the part of John Vidal as well ?

Total figements of his imagination, which totally misrepresent
what Professor Saunders work is all about.

Because basically to claim that an experienced and respected
Science reporter such as John Vidal is either deliberately or
inadvertantly misreprenting Saunders, just so as to get yourself
out of the hole you've dug for youreself, is pretty reprehensible
under any circumstances.

Especially as in this instance, its totallly poinless in any case.
As you should well know yourself. Cranks touting crackpot theories
demonstrating where all the experts have gone wrong, with page
upon page of calculations to prove it, are two a penny on Usenet.

So that thus far we have the evidence of -

a) Professor Mark Saunders, Head of Climate Prediction at the
Department of Space and Climate Physics at university college London.

b) as reported by "John Vidal who has been a journalist at the Guardian
for twelve years, as Environmental Editor for the past six years.
He has twice won Environmental Journalist of the Year in the national
awards." http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/books/vidal.html

To repeat, that's twice now he's won it.

c) Against the word of one Usenet crackpot who claims everyone
is conspiring against him.

>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

Not too difficult a choice to make really, is it?

michael adams

....

WaltA

2005-08-20, 8:21 pm

Variously it was written:
[color=darkred]
>I read on teletext today that some ladies are cycling around england on
>Harley-Davidson bikes.
>
>I wasn't aware that they made bicycles!
>Alan

I wasn't aware that they made bikes !
( motorised armchairs, more like)
<mallards>

Bring back my trusty Comet and Rapide ,, I wish,,,,sigh,,,

PS Those ladies must have strong legs then, not to mention the thighs
and,,,

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-20, 9:21 pm

The message <3mpfkuF17orl3U1@individual.net>
from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:

> I can't say fairer than that, now can I?

You didn't ask Dubya, didya?

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-20, 9:21 pm

The message <de87oh$3hk$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
from "Mike" <not@here.thank.you> contains these words:
> "Jaques d'Alltrades" <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:31303030323030384307984678@foobar.zetnet.co.uk...
[color=darkred]
> Matchless G9

Now if you'd said 'Silver Hawk'...

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

martin

2005-08-21, 6:21 am

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:41:55 +0100, "michael adams"
<mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:

>The real reason for the drought is essentially a lack of rainfall
>over the past nine months. In winter and spring, most reservoirs
>get replenished, but in the UK, for example, the past six months
>have seen barely two-thirds of the average expected rainfall.

LOL so lack of rainfall causes drought. Whatever next?
--
Martin

martin

2005-08-21, 6:21 am

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:57:25 +0100, "michael adams"
<mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:

>
>"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:de8a8s$l95$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
>
>
>
>...
>
>I know. We're all conspiring against you.
>
>Newspaper reporters, posters on NewsGroups....
>
>...
>
>
>...
>
>So if the drought trends aren't decribing 'cycles' precisely what are
>they describing ?
>
>And what is it, that's being "repeated" ?
>
>Or again, is it possible for anything to be repeated without that
>repetition representing a "cycle".
>
>Or are you now going to claim that the words "drought trends" and
>"repeated are total fabrications on the part of John Vidal as well ?
>
>Total figements of his imagination, which totally misrepresent
>what Professor Saunders work is all about.
>
>Because basically to claim that an experienced and respected
>Science reporter such as John Vidal is either deliberately or
>inadvertantly misreprenting Saunders, just so as to get yourself
>out of the hole you've dug for youreself, is pretty reprehensible
>under any circumstances.
>
>Especially as in this instance, its totallly poinless in any case.
>As you should well know yourself. Cranks touting crackpot theories
>demonstrating where all the experts have gone wrong, with page
>upon page of calculations to prove it, are two a penny on Usenet.
>
>So that thus far we have the evidence of -
>
>a) Professor Mark Saunders, Head of Climate Prediction at the
>Department of Space and Climate Physics at university college London.
>
>b) as reported by "John Vidal who has been a journalist at the Guardian
> for twelve years, as Environmental Editor for the past six years.
> He has twice won Environmental Journalist of the Year in the national
> awards." http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/books/vidal.html
>
>To repeat, that's twice now he's won it.
>
>c) Against the word of one Usenet crackpot who claims everyone
> is conspiring against him.
>
>
>
>Not too difficult a choice to make really, is it?

Call me a naive crackpot, but I'd chose Nick in preference to any
journalist.
--
Martin

martin

2005-08-21, 6:21 am

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:53:26 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
<creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

>The message <de7u0a$rda$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
>from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
>
>
>Quite. I favour Velocette, but others like Triumph...

when in need of support?
--
Martin

martin

2005-08-21, 6:21 am

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:04:07 GMT, please@dontbesilly.somewhere.com
(WaltA) wrote:

>PS Those ladies must have strong legs then, not to mention the thighs
>and,,,

.... predictable cycles?

--
Martin

michael adams

2005-08-21, 7:21 am

"martin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:31fgg1ddcft9u5c3fm8b5gv2jumkhdbrak@4ax.com...
>
> Call me a naive crackpot, but I'd chose Nick in preference to any
> journalist.
> --
> Martin

Please don't kid yourself. McLaren is the Crackpot here. You are
merely clinging onto his coat-tails.

McLaren questioned my use of cycles in relation to various
aspects of Global Warming.

McLaren vainly sought to impress with a claim of authority - viz
that he was a statistician who therefore knew what he was talking
about.

Rather than engage in technicalities, and thus allow McLaren
unlimited scope for obfuscation I resorted to an argument
from authority myself, by merely pointing out to Mclaren that the
interpretation I was citing was that put forward by Professor
Mark Saunders, Head of Climate Prediction at the Department of
Space and Climate Physics at university college London.

At this point it would have been quite legitimate for Mclaren,
if he was truly as knowledgeable on the subject as he claims he is,
and is not simply bluffing, to dispute Saunders' interpretation
of the data. In other words it was open to him to admit that
Saunders did indeed use cycles in his models, and that Saunders
was possibly mistaken in doing so.

Instead, seemingly bedazzled by my citing Saunders reputation, he
sought to imply that John Vidal, a highly respected journalist was
lying. And that Professor Saunders had actually made no mention of
cycles at all. Just as you too are quite happy to accuse Vidal of
lying and fabrication, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.

I already happened to know that Vidal was quite accurate in his
account because Mark Sauders is cited quite often in the media,
and quoted direct on the topic of meteorology and cycles. Here
is Saunders being quoted directly by the BBC.

Or perhaps yourself and your Crackpot Master McLaren will now want
to accuse the BBC of lying, and putting words in people's mouths
as well ?

<quote>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4671535.stm

Researchers from the Benfield Hazard Research Centre in London
used a new model to predict a very active season.

Prof Mark Saunders, Benfield Hazard Research Centre

The forecast spate of hurricanes in 2005 is part of a multi-decadal
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
cycle of fluctuating sea temperatures.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"It is a natural cycle of a period of about 50 or 60 years," Professor
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Saunders told the BBC News website.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

</quote>

I'd stay in the shallow end if I were you. Certainly if you're relying
on the likes of Crackpots like Mclaren, to blow up your water wings
and keep you afloat.

michael adams

....

martin

2005-08-21, 7:21 am

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:22:36 +0100, "michael adams"
<mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:

>
>"martin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:31fgg1ddcft9u5c3fm8b5gv2jumkhdbrak@4ax.com...
[color=darkred]
>Or perhaps yourself and your Crackpot Master McLaren will now want
>to accuse the BBC of lying, and putting words in people's mouths
>as well ?

The BBC quite frequently get things wrong, especially technical and
scientific subjects. For every expert with an opinion on weather
trends there are 10 other experts with differing opinions.

I remember when "the father of climatology" was forecasting that
another ice age was imminent.
--
Martin

michael adams

2005-08-21, 7:21 am

"martin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:tqegg11scc3c7oir4g78bq1m2vjno0iacc@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:41:55 +0100, "michael adams"
> <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> LOL so lack of rainfall causes drought. Whatever next?
> --
> Martin

No.

If you'd taken the trouble to quote the entire passage - which was
itself a quotation from a Guardian article - not that anyone
would know that from your post, you'd note that the final sentence
read as follows.

" He also rules out global warming as a contributing
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
factor since it is expected to cause wetter winters."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In other words, the present droughts aren't being caused by
Global Warming, which is the topic of this thread I believe.

So it looks as though you entirely missed the point there
Mr Brown, and that the joke is rather on you.

LOL indeed.

michael adams

....

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-21, 7:21 am

In article <31303030323030384307B99217@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
Jaques d'Alltrades <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>The message <3mpfkuF17orl3U1@individual.net>
>from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:
>
>
>You didn't ask Dubya, didya?

No, but he clearly learnt his science from the same source.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

michael adams

2005-08-21, 7:21 am

"martin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:mligg1t8km028auorp6m3pfrvggphdvmvn@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:22:36 +0100, "michael adams"
> <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> The BBC quite frequently get things wrong, especially technical and
> scientific subjects. For every expert with an opinion on weather
> trends there are 10 other experts with differing opinions.

Mclaren wasn't claiming any expert was wrong.

He was claiming the reporter was lying.

Just as you now seem to be claiming the BBC is lying, in deliberately
mis-quoting Professor Mark Saunders.

....

>
>
> I remember when "the father of climatology" was forecasting that
> another ice age was imminent.

....

Another Ice Age could well be imminent in Western Europe, if changes
in deep sea currents in the Atlantic, directly attributable to
Global Warming, interfere with the Gulf Stream upon which we're
at present so dependant for our climate. At its simplest, as the
Northern Polar icecap melts, cold water and air currents will flow
South into the Atlantic replacing the warm water and air currents
of the Gulf Stream, which had previously flowed North from the
Tropics. It really is that simple.

I can only suggest you try and inform yourself a bit more on
the subject.

michael adams

....

> --
> Martin

Steve Harris

2005-08-21, 7:21 am

In article <3mpr41F17sk5cU1@individual.net>, mjadams28@onetel.com
(michael adams) wrote:

> c) Against the word of one Usenet crackpot who claims everyone
> is conspiring against him.

I've been reading this group for some years and always found Nick's
postings sensible. He often digs behind currently fashionable theory and
comes up with well argued alternatives.

He hasn't claimed that everyone is conspiring against him.

He also shows more evidence of having read the charter for this group
than you do.

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
A useful bit of gardening software at http://www.netservs.com/garden/

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-21, 8:21 am

In article <mligg1t8km028auorp6m3pfrvggphdvmvn@4ax.com>,
martin <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:22:36 +0100, "michael adams"
><mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
>
>The BBC quite frequently get things wrong, especially technical and
>scientific subjects. For every expert with an opinion on weather
>trends there are 10 other experts with differing opinions.

Actually, the REAL experts tend to have ten opinions each, and simplify
to one only when talking to journalists and lecturing to undergraduates :-)

>I remember when "the father of climatology" was forecasting that
>another ice age was imminent.

Yup. I remember that, too.

That was, indeed, an aspect of the cyclemania that I was referring to.

It is only about 50 years since statisticians realised that most data
that appears to follow cycles actually doesn't, because the feedback
effects are of the sort that do not create regular or predictable
patterns. And the belief in cycles is still widespread in many
sciences, despite decades of the best people pointing out that the
data are clearly incompatible with a true cyclic model.

Interestingly, one of the things that keeps cyclemania alive is the
deficiency of the English language in not having a term for the sort
of irregular variation caused by non-cyclic feedback effects. The
nearest term is, indeed, "cycle" but that immediately gets people
thinking in terms of regular, predictable variation. Think of this
the next time anyone talks about the economy ....

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

michael adams

2005-08-21, 8:21 am

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:de9jf2$9i4$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> In article <31303030323030384307B99217@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
> Jaques d'Alltrades <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> No, but he clearly learnt his science from the same source.

Attempting to discredit scientists is more your own, and Bush's
(advisors) speciality than mine, I'd have thought.

Although lying about people seems a particular speciality of
yours.

As it is with most Crackpots of course.

More especially once they start to feel the heat.

michael adams

.....

>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-21, 8:21 am

In article <3mr2dsF17vh6lU1@individual.net>,
michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
>
>Mclaren wasn't claiming any expert was wrong.
>
>He was claiming the reporter was lying.
>
>Just as you now seem to be claiming the BBC is lying, in deliberately
>mis-quoting Professor Mark Saunders.

Nonsense. We are both stating that the reporter is likely to have
got confused, by not understanding the situation in enough depth,
and so produces a misleading or actually incorrect statement. This
has happened to both me and most of my colleagues who have been
'quoted' in the press.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

martin

2005-08-21, 8:21 am

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:07:41 +0100, "michael adams"
<mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:

>
>"martin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:mligg1t8km028auorp6m3pfrvggphdvmvn@4ax.com...
>
>Mclaren wasn't claiming any expert was wrong.
>
>He was claiming the reporter was lying.
>
>Just as you now seem to be claiming the BBC is lying, in deliberately
>mis-quoting Professor Mark Saunders.

Nobody has claimed anybody is lying.

>
>
>...
>
>
>...
>
>Another Ice Age could well be imminent in Western Europe, if changes
>in deep sea currents in the Atlantic, directly attributable to
>Global Warming, interfere with the Gulf Stream upon which we're
>at present so dependant for our climate. At its simplest, as the
>Northern Polar icecap melts, cold water and air currents will flow
>South into the Atlantic replacing the warm water and air currents
>of the Gulf Stream, which had previously flowed North from the
>Tropics. It really is that simple.
>
>I can only suggest you try and inform yourself a bit more on
>the subject.

Last time round it was a perceived trend, based on poor statistics and
mickey mouse data.

--
Martin

michael adams

2005-08-21, 8:21 am

"Steve Harris" <root@netservs.com> wrote in message
news:memo.20050821111329.33203C@net-services.default...

> In article <3mpr41F17sk5cU1@individual.net>, mjadams28@onetel.com
> (michael adams) wrote:
>
>
> I've been reading this group for some years and always found Nick's
> postings sensible. He often digs behind currently fashionable theory and
> comes up with well argued alternatives.
>
> He hasn't claimed that everyone is conspiring against him.
>
> He also shows more evidence of having read the charter for this group
> than you do.

....

The topic is global warming. That is the subject of my posts.

I'm sure Mr McLaren is very grateful to you for this acknowledgement
on your part that he's not able to defend his own arguments.

If you want to form a support Group for a particular poster I suggest
you start a Yahoo Chat Board. Let's just hope that Mr Mclaren thinks
as highly of you as you clearly do of him, and I hope the two of you
will at last find the happiness you truly deserve.

If you have an overweening desire to order people about then I can only
suggest you either seek employment as a traffic warden, or first try out
your injunctions on the trees in the park.

michael adams

>
> Steve Harris -

> NewsGroup Spammer and expert on the fine print of the NG Charter.

> Suprise, surprise.

Mike Lyle

2005-08-21, 8:21 am

michael adams wrote:
[...]
> Although lying about people seems a particular speciality of
> yours.
>
> As it is with most Crackpots of course.
>
> More especially once they start to feel the heat.
[...]

Michael, I can't help wondering why you use such an aggressive style
in discussion. It's awfully off-putting. I seem to remember having
been on the wrong end of it myself on one occasion (perhaps I started
it: I really can't remember). Surely if you have the evidence and
present it clearly, it will speak for itself: the issue is far too
interesting to get emotional about. Nick gets distinctly blunt at
times, but ratcheting up isn't the way to deal with it.

--
Mike.

michael adams

2005-08-21, 8:21 am

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:de9kiq$bkh$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> In article <3mr2dsF17vh6lU1@individual.net>,
> michael adams <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:
>
> Nonsense. We are both stating that the reporter is likely to have
> got confused, by not understanding the situation in enough depth,
> and so produces a misleading or actually incorrect statement. This
> has happened to both me and most of my colleagues who have been
> 'quoted' in the press.

No. You were confident in your claim that Professor Mark Saunders
could not possibly have mentioned 'cycles'. Because you were equally
confident, it would seem to me at least, that I was simply plucking
claims out of the air. That I myself was fabricating, and making false
claims to knowledge that I didn't in fact possess.

Given that both John Vidal (indirectly) and the BBC (directly)
quoted Saunders as mentioning "cycles", you are explicitly
claiming that they are either lying or are fabricating quotes.

Or are now prepared to admit that you were mistaken?

And that Professor Saunders does indeed make use of 'cycles' in his
modelling ?

It's a straightforward enough question I'd have thought Mr Maclaren.
With no room for confusion of misundestanding. As you and your
colleagues may have suffered in the past in your dealings with
the Press.

So here is your chance to put the record straight.

So that when you claimed -

" And there you can see it. Assuming that he knows his statistics,
the first sentence is likely to be an accurate representation of
what he said, but the term 'natural cycle' was almost certainly
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
introduced as a loose description by the reporter.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And when the BBC quotes Professor Saunders as saying

"It is a natural cycle of a period of about 50 or 60 years," Professor
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Saunders told the BBC News website.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4671535.stm

it must be the case that either you are wrong, or the BBC website is
lying in putting words into Professor Saunders' mouth.

So which is it, Mr Mclaren?

If you'd be so kind.

michael adams

....

> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

michael adams

2005-08-21, 9:21 am

"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3mr53sF17hfqvU1@individual.net...
> michael adams wrote:
> [...]
> [...]
>
> Michael, I can't help wondering why you use such an aggressive style
> in discussion. It's awfully off-putting.

....

Then don't read my posts.

It really is as simple as that, isn't it?

If you want a forum which is run solely to suit your own
personal tastes Mr Lyle, then I can only suggest you start
up your own moderated chat board.

It isn't my function in life to provide you personally
with either entertainment or information. More especially
when you're not paying me anything to do so. And I find it
rather presumptuous on your part to assume otherwise.

....

> I seem to remember having
> been on the wrong end of it myself on one occasion (perhaps I started
> it: I really can't remember). Surely if you have the evidence and
> present it clearly, it will speak for itself: the issue is far too
> interesting to get emotional about. Nick gets distinctly blunt at
> times, but ratcheting up isn't the way to deal with it.
>
> --
> Mike.
>

....

If I ever require advice on how to conduct myself on NewsGroups Mr Lyle,
or in life generaly for that matter, you can rest assured that the first
person who I'll turn to for advice, will be somebody who clearly believes
themselves especially qualified to offer advice on such subjects,
such as yourself.

michael adams

....

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-21, 3:21 pm

The message <4307b552.7480831@text.news.ntlworld.com>
from please@dontbesilly.somewhere.com (WaltA) contains these words:
> Variously it was written:
[color=darkred]

I bet they have some thised thighs if they pedal them.
[color=darkred]
> I wasn't aware that they made bikes !
> ( motorised armchairs, more like)
> <mallards>

> Bring back my trusty Comet and Rapide ,, I wish,,,,sigh,,,

Ah. Now you're talking. I hanker. (Though my Shadow was all packed with
Lightning internals...)

> PS Those ladies must have strong legs then, not to mention the thighs
> and,,,

<swoon>

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-21, 3:21 pm

The message <3mpr41F17sk5cU1@individual.net>
from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:

> So if the drought trends aren't decribing 'cycles' precisely what are
> they describing ?

Trends, perhaps?

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-21, 3:21 pm

The message <p4fgg19k9lbv5ke0r9ptb8gp5qlvof3dnh@4ax.com>
from martin <me@privacy.net> contains these words:

[color=darkred]
> when in need of support?

I like the thud of the Longstroke MSS, every other lamp post. I like the
friskiness of the KTT, and the silent creep-uppedness of the LE -
amongst other things.

I don't need a walking-frame YET, TYVM.

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-21, 3:21 pm

The message <de9kdj$bb8$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

> Interestingly, one of the things that keeps cyclemania alive is the
> deficiency of the English language in not having a term for the sort
> of irregular variation caused by non-cyclic feedback effects. The
> nearest term is, indeed, "cycle" but that immediately gets people
> thinking in terms of regular, predictable variation. Think of this
> the next time anyone talks about the economy ....

'Fluctuations' instead of 'cycles'?

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-21, 3:21 pm

The message <3mr2sfF18g528U1@individual.net>
from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:
> "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:de9jf2$9i4$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...

[color=darkred]
> Attempting to discredit scientists is more your own, and Bush's
> (advisors) speciality than mine, I'd have thought.

> Although lying about people seems a particular speciality of
> yours.

> As it is with most Crackpots of course.

> More especially once they start to feel the heat.

The only evidence in support of your increasingly hysterical replies
rests in your own posts - nowhere else.

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-21, 3:21 pm

The message <de9jf2$9i4$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
> In article <31303030323030384307B99217@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
> Jaques d'Alltrades <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
(Global warming)
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> No, but he clearly learnt his science from the same source.

I rather think he learnt it from the same source as his thinking on
foreign policy, and his knowledge of psychology.

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-21, 3:21 pm

The message <3mr72eF18epadU1@individual.net>
from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:
> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3mr53sF17hfqvU1@individual.net...
[color=darkred]
> ....

> Then don't read my posts.

> It really is as simple as that, isn't it?

> If you want a forum which is run solely to suit your own
> personal tastes Mr Lyle, then I can only suggest you start
> up your own moderated chat board.

> It isn't my function in life to provide you personally
> with either entertainment or information.

You seem to be succeeding admirably in the former, though failing rather
dismally regarding the latter. Perhaps it's a good thing that it isn't
your function in life.

> More especially
> when you're not paying me anything to do so. And I find it
> rather presumptuous on your part to assume otherwise.

I don't remember anyone assuming that you were being paid for your
outpourings.

> ....

[color=darkred]
> ....

> If I ever require advice on how to conduct myself on NewsGroups Mr Lyle,
> or in life generaly for that matter, you can rest assured that the first
> person who I'll turn to for advice, will be somebody who clearly believes
> themselves especially qualified to offer advice on such subjects,
> such as yourself.

Ah, good. I must say that I approve of your rating Mike as knowing how
to conduct himself in newsgroups, for I totally agree there.

<Book of Common Prayer>

Hear them, read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest them.

</Prayer>

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-21, 5:21 pm

In article <31303030323030384308C90D27@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
Jaques d'Alltrades <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>The message <de9kdj$bb8$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
>from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
>
>
>'Fluctuations' instead of 'cycles'?

Hang on. The reference was from the Guardian. Do you honestly
think that they could have spelled 'fluctuations' the same way
twice, let alone correctly?

But, yes, it is an accurate term. It is very generic, unfortunately,
and doesn't identify the particular class of variation that is
being referred to here.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Mike Lyle

2005-08-21, 7:21 pm

Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <31303030323030384308C90D27@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
> Jaques d'Alltrades <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
the[color=darkred]
sort[color=darkred]
The[color=darkred]
this[color=darkred]
>
> Hang on. The reference was from the Guardian. Do you honestly
> think that they could have spelled 'fluctuations' the same way
> twice, let alone correctly?
>
> But, yes, it is an accurate term. It is very generic,
unfortunately,
> and doesn't identify the particular class of variation that is
> being referred to here.

And the consensus on climate change has built to a level where, most
unfortunately, one has to start taking into consideration the
political or paymaster issues relevant to those relatively few who
pop up and tell us there's nothing to worry about. No doubt the
mechanisms and even the data of the whole thing are very complex and
uncertain, and many specific predictions will turn out to be wrong:
this isn't something nice and simple like nuclear physics. But, oh
boy, if somebody tells me it doesn't matter if the North Pole has
melted, I want to see the cores he's examined to show how often it's
happened in the past, and I want to know who's paying him.

--
Mike.

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-21, 7:21 pm

The message <deam2h$h1h$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

[color=darkred]
> Hang on. The reference was from the Guardian. Do you honestly
> think that they could have spelled 'fluctuations' the same way
> twice, let alone correctly?

I stans collected.

> But, yes, it is an accurate term. It is very generic, unfortunately,
> and doesn't identify the particular class of variation that is
> being referred to here.

Perhaps we should coin a new word?

I'll kick off with 'fluctuatours' and 'circumfluctuations'.

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Dave Poole

2005-08-22, 6:21 am

Mike Lyle wrote:

>And the consensus on climate change has built to a level where, most
>unfortunately, one has to start taking into consideration the
>political or paymaster issues relevant to those relatively few who
>pop up and tell us there's nothing to worry about.

Its rather difficult to accept such 'reassurances' in the light of
what is being discovered. With net increases of 3 billion tons of
additional carbon being added to the atmosphere annually (sourced from
the EIA), it is difficult to see how this could not affect climate.
Somewhat disconcerting are the dramatic rises in the concentration of
N. hemisphere CO2 during 2002 and 2003. These 'spikes' could well be
anomalies and it is far too early to tell, but if they turn out to be
the start of a trend, then I think we may be in for a rougher ride
sooner.

>No doubt the
>mechanisms and even the data of the whole thing are very complex and
>uncertain, and many specific predictions will turn out to be wrong:
>this isn't something nice and simple like nuclear physics. But, oh
>boy, if somebody tells me it doesn't matter if the North Pole has
>melted, I want to see the cores he's examined to show how often it's
>happened in the past, and I want to know who's paying him.

Core samples illustrate that the world has indeed gone through many
natural periods (oops nearly wrote 'cycles' there Nick) of quite
marked warming (and cooling) in the past. However, at no time in the
earth's history has there been so much additional and artificially
introduced greenhouse gas sloshing around. Regardless of the cause of
warming, these additional gases are present in such vast quantities as
to make any prediction based upon past warming events somewhat
unreliable to say the least.

So is anyone going to mention the possibility of the destabilisation
of methane hydrate deposits and the catastrophic effects that could
have? No? Maybe doomsday scenarios are best left for elsewhere.

Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-22, 8:21 am

In article <bl0jg1ljih8tcjqu0hjmsqe80seb26pcvu@4ax.com>,
Dave Poole <daverpoole@nomail.co.uk> writes:
|> Mike Lyle wrote:
|>
|> >And the consensus on climate change has built to a level where, most
|> >unfortunately, one has to start taking into consideration the
|> >political or paymaster issues relevant to those relatively few who
|> >pop up and tell us there's nothing to worry about.
|>
|> Its rather difficult to accept such 'reassurances' in the light of
|> what is being discovered. ..., but if they turn out to be
|> the start of a trend, then I think we may be in for a rougher ride
|> sooner.

I think that you may be right. There is little dissent within the
scientific community about the certainty of drastic effects, and
not all that much about their magnitude. What isn't known is what
the effects will be or the exact timescale!

This gets translated by the likes of Bush, his cronies and poodles
into a claim that scientists don't know what will happen - and that
is used to disregard their warnings.

|> Core samples illustrate that the world has indeed gone through many
|> natural periods (oops nearly wrote 'cycles' there Nick) of quite
|> marked warming (and cooling) in the past.

Yes. Yalden contains some nice, clear graphs that show the type
of variation that we lack a word for ....

|> However, at no time in the
|> earth's history has there been so much additional and artificially
|> introduced greenhouse gas sloshing around. ...

Yes. As I understand it, the last time there was so much was
before the great apes had split off from the monkeys.

|> So is anyone going to mention the possibility of the destabilisation
|> of methane hydrate deposits and the catastrophic effects that could
|> have? No? Maybe doomsday scenarios are best left for elsewhere.

Well, Michael Adams did raise the prospect of the North Atlantic
conveyor reversing. As I understand it, we know that it did within
a period (and that means 'within' not 'over') of 50 years about
10-11,000 years ago. However, the models are inadequate to show
how that could have happened, whether global warming would cause
it to reverse and so on. I believe that the current hypothesis is
that it is likely to stop fairly soon, which is bad news for the UK,
but not by comparison with it reversing.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Bob Smith

2005-08-22, 8:21 am

Mike Lyle

2005-08-22, 9:21 am

Bob Smith wrote:
[...]
> Global warming is caused by the dwindling number of pirates.
>
> See http://www.venganza.org/

The calm Voice of Sanity at last! It should be noted, however, that a
recent spike in pirate numbers local to Indonesian waters has often
been adduced in an attempt to refute the theory. It's very important
to get across to the lay public, which might easily be confused by
such an apparent counter-example, that in fact these data merely
_confirm_ the theory.

Nick can explain the stats better than I, and I wish dear old Franz
were still with us to describe the physics, but I think it's
essentially correct to say it's a matter of what the layman would
call "averaging". A localised concentration does nothing to detract
from the principle applied globally; and, very interestingly,
according to catastrophe theory, may even appear to produce a
transitory effect _contrary_ to what a global calculation would
predict.

--
Mike.

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-22, 9:21 am

In article <3mtrccF18afomU1@individual.net>,
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes:
|>
|> Nick can explain the stats better than I, and I wish dear old Franz
|> were still with us to describe the physics, but I think it's
|> essentially correct to say it's a matter of what the layman would
|> call "averaging". A localised concentration does nothing to detract
|> from the principle applied globally; and, very interestingly,
|> according to catastrophe theory, may even appear to produce a
|> transitory effect _contrary_ to what a global calculation would
|> predict.

As demonstrated by the technology of paraffin refrigerators.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Alan Holmes

2005-08-22, 11:21 am

"michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote in message
news:3mqvpbF183s4mU1@individual.net...
>
> "martin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:31fgg1ddcft9u5c3fm8b5gv2jumkhdbrak@4ax.com...
>
>
> Please don't kid yourself. McLaren is the Crackpot here. You are
> merely clinging onto his coat-tails.
>
> McLaren questioned my use of cycles in relation to various
> aspects of Global Warming.
>
>
>
> Prof Mark Saunders, Benfield Hazard Research Centre

Ah, a Professor, you would be a real expert then?

From my contacts with professors over the years, most of them are so bound
up with their own importance, they have absolutely no idea of what real life
is about.

Alan

>
> The forecast spate of hurricanes in 2005 is part of a multi-decadal
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> cycle of fluctuating sea temperatures.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> "It is a natural cycle of a period of about 50 or 60 years," Professor
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Saunders told the BBC News website.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> </quote>
>
>
> I'd stay in the shallow end if I were you. Certainly if you're relying
> on the likes of Crackpots like Mclaren, to blow up your water wings
> and keep you afloat.
>
>
>
>
> michael adams
>
> ...
>
>

Alan Holmes

2005-08-22, 11:21 am

"martin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:p4fgg19k9lbv5ke0r9ptb8gp5qlvof3dnh@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:53:26 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
> <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>

I've always had Raleigh.

--
Alan

Reply to alan (dot) holmes27 (at) virgin (dot) net
[color=darkred]
>
> when in need of support?
> --
> Martin

Alan Holmes

2005-08-22, 11:21 am

"Jaques d'Alltrades" <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:31303030323030384308C79289@foobar.zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <p4fgg19k9lbv5ke0r9ptb8gp5qlvof3dnh@4ax.com>
> from martin <me@privacy.net> contains these words:
>
>
>
> I like the thud of the Longstroke MSS, every other lamp post. I like the
> friskiness of the KTT, and the silent creep-uppedness of the LE -
> amongst other things.
>
> I don't need a walking-frame YET, TYVM.

Lucky beggar!

--
Alan

Reply to alan (dot) holmes27 (at) virgin (dot) net

>
> --
> Rusty
> Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
> http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-22, 11:21 am

In article <TtkOe.176$yh1.32@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
"Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes@virgin.net> writes:
|>
|> From my contacts with professors over the years, most of them are so bound
|> up with their own importance, they have absolutely no idea of what real life
|> is about.

That is a trifle unfair. The number that are so self-important that
they bullshit about their own field is relatively small, though not
unfortunately negligible.

But that is largely irrelevant to this situation, which is that of
a Guardian reporter mangling a complex and subtle scientific problem
and that of a naive layman mangling it considerably further and
then claiming that his misunderstanding is what was stated by the
original expert. In this case, don't blame the professor :-)

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Mike Lyle

2005-08-22, 11:21 am

Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <3mtrccF18afomU1@individual.net>,
> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes:
Franz[color=darkred]
detract[color=darkred]
>
> As demonstrated by the technology of paraffin refrigerators.

A perfect example in more than one sense: I remember some people back
in Sa'udi had one which had to be turned upside-down every day to
make it work.

--
Mike.

Mike Lyle

2005-08-22, 11:21 am

Alan Holmes wrote:
> "martin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:p4fgg19k9lbv5ke0r9ptb8gp5qlvof3dnh@4ax.com...
[...][color=darkred]
>
> I've always had Raleigh.

They always seemed to get your coat wet when going through puddles,
though.

--
Mike.

martin

2005-08-22, 11:21 am

On 22 Aug 2005 13:44:26 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

>
>In article <TtkOe.176$yh1.32@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
>"Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes@virgin.net> writes:
>|>
>|> From my contacts with professors over the years, most of them are so bound
>|> up with their own importance, they have absolutely no idea of what real life
>|> is about.
>
>That is a trifle unfair. The number that are so self-important that
>they bullshit about their own field is relatively small, though not
>unfortunately negligible.
>
>But that is largely irrelevant to this situation, which is that of
>a Guardian reporter mangling a complex and subtle scientific problem
>and that of a naive layman mangling it considerably further and
>then claiming that his misunderstanding is what was stated by the
>original expert. In this case, don't blame the professor :-)

All concealed behind a thin tissue of lies? :-)
--
Martin

michael adams

2005-08-22, 12:21 pm

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:deckrq$oc6$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
>
> In article <TtkOe.176$yh1.32@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
> "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes@virgin.net> writes:
> |>
> |> From my contacts with professors over the years, most of them are so
bound
> |> up with their own importance, they have absolutely no idea of what real
life
> |> is about.
>
> That is a trifle unfair. The number that are so self-important that
> they bullshit about their own field is relatively small, though not
> unfortunately negligible.
>
> But that is largely irrelevant to this situation, which is that of
> a Guardian reporter mangling a complex and subtle scientific problem
> and that of a naive layman mangling it considerably further

....

Who's getting anything mangled Mr MacLaren ?

As has already been pointed out to you more than once, this
is what Professor Saunders is quoted as saying on the BBC
Website.

Nothing to do with the "Guardian" at all, Mr MacLaren.

Maybe you suffer from short term memory loss, maybe you really
are that stupid, or maybe you're not being totally honest in this
instance. Who's to know, eh?

Anyway here's the quote that keeps escaping your memory -

<quote>

It is a natural cycle of a period of about 50 or 60 years," Professor
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Saunders told the BBC News website.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4671535.stm

</quote>

So are you going to ignore that quote and run away again, Mr McLaren ?

Given that you're so seemingly taken up with impressing everyone with
just how clever you are.

That's not really a very impressive thing to do, now is it Mr McLaren ?

Refusing to acknowledge a straightforward quote from a BBC website
and refusing to answer a simple question.

Oh dear!

The depths some people are prepared to sink to, in order to prevent
themselves from looking total idiots.

Anyway in case you'd forgotten it already, here's the quote again

<quote>

It is a natural cycle of a period of about 50 or 60 years," Professor
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Saunders told the BBC News website.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4671535.stm

</quote>

I can only suggest that whoever may be getting a good mangling at
this juncture Mr MacLaren, it certainly isn't me!

You wrote previously -

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:de8a8s$l95$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...

And there you can see it. Assuming that he knows his statistics,
the first sentence is likely to be an accurate representation of
what he said, but the term 'natural cycle' was almost certainly
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
introduced as a loose description by the reporter.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

</quote>

So do you still claim it was a loose description introduced by the
"Guardian" reporter as you stated before?

Yes or no ?

Or are you going to run away from the question again, like a
snivelling little coward?

Or for once in your life are you going to be a man ? And have the
guts and decency to admit that you were wrong? Totally and utterly
wrong.

The choice is yours, and yours alone, Mr MacLaren..

michael adams

....

> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-22, 2:21 pm

This will be my last post to this, er, gentleman on this topic.

In article <3mu7j1F18niofU1@individual.net>,
"michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> writes:
|>
|> Who's getting anything mangled Mr MacLaren ?

You are. Repeatedly.

|> As has already been pointed out to you more than once, this
|> is what Professor Saunders is quoted as saying on the BBC
|> Website.
|>
|> Nothing to do with the "Guardian" at all, Mr MacLaren.

Ah. Well, if you start off long postings with abuse, don't expect
people to read them. I failed to notice you had introduced a new
reference. If I had, I could have pointed out that you had made
a new mistake.

|> It is a natural cycle of a period of about 50 or 60 years," Professor
|> Saunders told the BBC News website.

The previous paragraph stated what 'it' is:

The forecast spate of hurricanes in 2005 is part of a
multi-decadal cycle of fluctuating sea temperatures.

Yes, there are known, relatively stable cycles of fluctuating
sea temperatures, just as there is one of solar activity. It
is extremely unclear (nay, doubtful) that the stability of the
cycles is more than a temporary phenomenon, but something that
repeats more than once (even if with somewhat irregular timing)
can fairly be called a cycle. Do a Web search on 'el Nino' for
a the best known and most important of these.

I remain unconvinced about a 60 year cycle, but I have not looked
into that matter recently and don't know if there is any evidence
for it (there used not to be). But it isn't implausible.

This, however, has next to nothing to do with your original
claim, which was referring to European droughts and heatwaves.
There is very good evidence that they do NOT follow any regular
cycle, and adequate data going back centuries. There are known,
agreed meteorological reasons why relatively simple phenomena in
the Carribean do not cause simple phenomena in Europe.

Saunders will know all that, which is why he responded differently
to the different questions from the Guardian and BBC.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

WaltA

2005-08-22, 3:21 pm

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:23:23 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
>I bet they have some thised thighs if they pedal them.
>
>
>Ah. Now you're talking. I hanker. (Though my Shadow was all packed with
>Lightning internals...)

Great stuff ! My Rapide had a Shadow inside, but outside I decided not
to add a Shadow 'clock', nor badges, cos it might have attracted
unwelcome 'admiration',

><swoon>

WaltA

2005-08-22, 3:21 pm

martin wrote:
>(WaltA) wrote:
>... predictable cycles?

:-) !
predictable ?
You are the Pope and I claim my 5quid

BAC

2005-08-22, 3:21 pm

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:decv6t$hg1$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
>
>
<snip>
>
> Saunders will know all that, which is why he responded differently
> to the different questions from the Guardian and BBC.
>
>

The work of the group led by Prof Saunders is 'showcased' (apologies if that
is not the correct word) at
http://forecast.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/
which includes a 'Publications' page of links to refereed papers and
conference papers which, I suggest, might go some way to putting some flesh
on the necessarily very bare bones of the BBC article, for those who are
interested.

Janet Baraclough

2005-08-22, 4:21 pm

The message <3mu7j1F18niofU1@individual.net>
from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:

> Oh dear!

> The depths some people are prepared to sink to, in order to prevent
> themselves from looking total idiots.

I think we've all got your drift. Now, if you feel yourself sinking
again for the third time, tie yourself to something highly inflated and
keep blowing your whistle. Don't keep kicking because it attracts
sharks.

Meanwhile I'll try to think up some good fundraising ideas to buy a
lifeboat, or at least, a bargepole.

Janet.

michael adams

2005-08-22, 4:21 pm

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:decv6t$hg1$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
>
>
> This will be my last post to this, er, gentleman on this topic.

....

Always a smart move that one.

....

"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:decgs4$fib$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...

> Some of us remember those days, even if you had not yet been
> perpetrated.

....

>
> Ah. Well, if you start off long postings with abuse,

My heart bleeds for you.

It really does.

michael adams

.....

>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-22, 4:21 pm

The message <430a07e2.932204@text.news.ntlworld.com>
from please@dontbesilly.somewhere.com (WaltA) contains these words:

[color=darkred]
> Great stuff ! My Rapide had a Shadow inside, but outside I decided not
> to add a Shadow 'clock', nor badges, cos it might have attracted
> unwelcome 'admiration',

AFAICR there were no differences between the Shadow's internals and the
Rapide's. (Dammit, my Vincent book is still in store...)

HRD used to test each enginr on a brake, and the ones which came up to
scratch power-wise were painted black and went out as Shadows. Those
which didn't were sold as Rapides. However, if a Rapide had failed the
test because it was a tad tight, once it had run in it was very often
better than a lot of Shadows.

There may have been a difference in the gearbox internals though, as the
Rapide was billed as a 'tourer' and the Shadow as a 'sports model'.

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

michael adams

2005-08-22, 4:21 pm

"Janet Baraclough" <janet.and.john@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3130303039303239430A1EC335@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <3mu7j1F18niofU1@individual.net>
> from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:
>
>
>
> I think we've all got your drift.

< snipped deeply hurtful remarks and cutting asides
about whistles, sharks, lifebelts etc etc etc >

>
> Janet.

....

I very much doubt that, somehow.

You appear to be totally lacking in any sense of humour whatsoever.

Whether your insufferably condescending friend Mr MacLaren is
being entirely serious or not, or whether it's merely an act
as I strongly suspect it is, is for him to decide.

Maybe you'd like to email him privately to find out, eh?

Still it must be comforting for Mr MacMclaren to know that he can
always rely on the likes of yourself and your rapier wit, to try and
fight his battles for him, and get him out of any hole he finds himself
in. If anyone finally manages to break through the old condescension
barrier as it were, and is more than happy to reply in kind. Instead
of merely shuffling off, never to be heard of again, as is probably
more often the case.

And its nice to see that you're still claiming to be speaking on behalf
of the entire Newsgroup there, Janet.

That one never fails to impress.

So what is it then, emails or telepathy ?

Or cloning ?

michael adams

....

WaltA

2005-08-22, 4:21 pm

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:29:17 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
>AFAICR there were no differences between the Shadow's internals and the
>Rapide's.

choke of carb for one.
ummm, mist of time,, was it inch&1/8 for R and inch&1/4 for S ( or
perhaps it was inch&1/4 vs. inch&1/2 ?)
Compression ratio as well ( or was that just a progression of time
thing ? After all, I had just upgraded from an HRD. (as in HRD not
HRD-Vincent)
Hmmm, I may think of more, like wheel sizes varied quite a bit from
time to time and model to model ,,,,
Are 19" tyres still available I wonder, they were difficult to get
hold of at one time.

> (Dammit, my Vincent book is still in store...)

All mine also, as are a lot of my old braincells :-(

>Rapide was billed as a 'tourer' and the Shadow as a 'sports model'.

Exactly, I ref. hon. gent. to my post earlier about mudguards. gert
heavy steel things with skirts on the R.

WaltA

2005-08-22, 5:21 pm

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:13:45 GMT, please@dontbesilly.somewhere.com
(WaltA) wrote:

>Exactly, I ref. hon. gent. to my post earlier about mudguards. gert
>heavy steel things with skirts on the R.

Oh, that is odd, my apols.
you cant see the bit about mudguards and things in a previous post cos
it didnt get in !
How strange, it should have been just before the "swoon" bit,

I wonder where that went ,,, dear me,,,,this tea must be stronger than
I thought !

martin

2005-08-22, 5:21 pm

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:32:18 GMT, please@dontbesilly.somewhere.com
(WaltA) wrote:

>martin wrote:
>
> :-) !
>predictable ?
>You are the Pope and I claim my 5quid

Sorry to disappoint, but we only have papal bull left at this time of
year.
--
Martin

Kay

2005-08-22, 5:21 pm

In article <3mum66F18tu8kU1@individual.net>, michael adams
<mjadams28@onetel.com> writes
>
>
> < snipped deeply hurtful remarks and cutting asides
> about whistles, sharks, lifebelts etc etc etc >
>
PCTKB?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

WaltA

2005-08-22, 5:21 pm

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:28:10 +0200, martin <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:32:18 GMT, please@dontbesilly.somewhere.com
>(WaltA) wrote:
>
>
>Sorry to disappoint, but we only have papal bull left at this time of
>year.

It's all smoke ;-)
(and maybe some mirrors as well)
If we thought hard enough we should be able to work in a unicycle here
somewhere ?

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-22, 6:21 pm

The message <3mum66F18tu8kU1@individual.net>
from "michael adams" <mjadams28@onetel.com> contains these words:
> "Janet Baraclough" <janet.and.john@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3130303039303239430A1EC335@zetnet.co.uk...
[color=darkred]
> < snipped deeply hurtful remarks and cutting asides
> about whistles, sharks, lifebelts etc etc etc >

[color=darkred]
> ....

> I very much doubt that, somehow.

> You appear to be totally lacking in any sense of humour whatsoever.

/snip/

Now that's funny, coming from you.

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades

2005-08-22, 6:21 pm

The message <430a20ee.7345332@text.news.ntlworld.com>
from please@dontbesilly.somewhere.com (WaltA) contains these words:
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:29:17 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

[color=darkred]
> choke of carb for one.
> ummm, mist of time,, was it inch&1/8 for R and inch&1/4 for S ( or
> perhaps it was inch&1/4 vs. inch&1/2 ?)

Dunno - the Shadow/Lightning had GPs you could crawl down.

> Compression ratio as well ( or was that just a progression of time
> thing ? After all, I had just upgraded from an HRD. (as in HRD not
> HRD-Vincent)
> Hmmm, I may think of more, like wheel sizes varied quite a bit from
> time to time and model to model ,,,,
> Are 19" tyres still available I wonder, they were difficult to get
> hold of at one time.

Yes. The series D Shadow had a 2·25" × 20" front IIRC

[color=darkred]
> All mine also, as are a lot of my old braincells :-(

[color=darkred]
> Exactly, I ref. hon. gent. to my post earlier about mudguards. gert
> heavy steel things with skirts on the R.

Well, the Black Prince had those. In fact, now you come to mention it,
mine was originally one of those enclosed thingies, later Shadowised
with ally guards, etc, then stuffed full of goodies.

--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Travis

2005-08-22, 6:21 pm

Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <3mtrccF18afomU1@individual.net>,
> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> As demonstrated by the technology of paraffin refrigerators.

Even though I Googled for it I can't find how a paraffin refrigerator
works. Anyone?

--

Travis in Shoreline Washington

Mike Lyle

2005-08-22, 6:21 pm

Travis wrote:
> Nick Maclaren wrote:
>
> Even though I Googled for it I can't find how a paraffin
refrigerator
> works. Anyone?

Same as a gas one.

--
Mike.

WaltA

2005-08-22, 6:21 pm

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:33:51 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
snip nostalgia for brevity, all noted.
>Well, the Black Prince had those. In fact, now you come to mention it,
>mine was originally one of those enclosed thingies,

I had a feeling that you might be talking about the later D series.
Ah yes, the one in skirts :-))
As you say, "originally", but like you most real riders soon undressed
her.
and that transparent plastic thing in front meant you didn't get flys
& bees in yer beard like what real riders were supposed to have ,
heheee.

> later Shadowised with ally guards,

Yep, I mentioned those as well in that post I managed to misfire !
(and now lost to posterity)
There was also a fancy stainless set as well wasn't there?
Or were they other supplier add-ons ? Tut, how my brain doth fade !

My first were series B - HRD, cos they were cheap s/h ( nobody wanted
them ! can you imagine ha ! ) then later series C Vincent-HRDs

Oh drool. You'll have me weeping into my beer soon, stoppit :-)

Enough of this, go look at my tree bark pictures for your pennance

martin

2005-08-22, 6:21 pm

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:57:32 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Travis wrote:
>refrigerator
>
>Same as a gas one.

and for those who don't know ...

http://www.nh3tech.org/absorption.html
--
Martin

michael adams

2005-08-22, 7:21 pm

"Kay" <kay@scarboro.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CtahLfNQhiCDFwkm@scarboro.demon.co.uk...

> In article <3mum66F18tu8kU1@individual.net>, michael adams
> <mjadams28@onetel.com> writes
> PCTKB?

> --
> Kay
> "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"
>

You noticed ?

Indeed, I always find it the best strategy to adopt, when cut to
the quick by the rapier wit of the likes of Janet Barraclough,
to announce the fact to the world.

Not too much gets past you does it, eh Kay ?

michael adams

....

Nick Maclaren

2005-08-22, 7:21 pm

In article <i3gkg15jrntu5lft7bmlhagf7knpacnudg@4ax.com>,
martin <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:57:32 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
><mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>and for those who don't know ...
>
>http://www.nh3tech.org/absorption.html

Ye gods! That explains why I was about to give the answer to how
one works: rather badly.

I had never looked up the physics before, but that isn't the sort
of technology that is ideal for the conditions we used them in.
Not field repairable? When transport from the nearest factory
takes several weeks? Not good news.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sacha

2005-08-22, 7:21 pm

On 22/8/05 19:22, in article 3mujv9F17lkbuU1@individual.net, "michael adams"
<mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:

>
> "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:decv6t$hg1$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
<snip>>>
>
>
>
> My heart bleeds for you.
>
> It really does.

Good. Let's hope that means you're going to stop boring the us to death.
What a tedious little person you are.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

martin

2005-08-22, 7:21 pm

On 22 Aug 2005 21:36:35 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

>In article <i3gkg15jrntu5lft7bmlhagf7knpacnudg@4ax.com>,
>martin <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>Ye gods! That explains why I was about to give the answer to how
>one works: rather badly.
>
>I had never looked up the physics before, but that isn't the sort
>of technology that is ideal for the conditions we used them in.
>Not field repairable? When transport from the nearest factory
>takes several weeks? Not good news.

On the web there is a report about somebody who is no more after he
refilled a paraffin refrigerator with petrol.
--
Martin

Sacha

2005-08-22, 7:21 pm

On 22/8/05 22:19, in article 3muttrF187mubU1@individual.net, "michael adams"
<mjadams28@onetel.com> wrote:

>
> "Kay" <kay@scarboro.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:CtahLfNQhiCDFwkm@scarboro.demon.co.uk...
>
>
>
>
> You noticed ?
>
> Indeed, I always find it the best strategy to adopt, when cut to
> the quick by the rapier wit of the likes of Janet Barraclough,
> to announce the fact to the world.
>
> Not too much gets past you does it, eh Kay ?
>
>
Oh dear. The prat strikes ag