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| We have just moved into a house with a large garden in Wiltshire and there
seem to be two trees and shrubs bearing ripe plums.
However, I don't want to be poisoned due to incorrect identification. Does
anybody know of a website that provides identification? Are any plum-like
bushes/trees poisonous?
The fruits are round and now ripe.
One plant is bushy, about 10ft high, has oval pointed fine-toothed leaves
about 3cm long. Fruit light-red about size of a cherry. They taste like
plums.
The other is a tree, has oval pointed fine-toothed leaves about 6cm long.
The fruits are bright yellow, twice the size of a cherry. I haven't tried
tasting these.
cheers
Davy
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-09-14, 6:21 am |
| In article <5ZadnfPkIYAGQbrenZ2dnUVZ8qadnZ2d@brightview.com>,
Davy <david@REMOVETHISchobham.org.uk> wrote:
>We have just moved into a house with a large garden in Wiltshire and there
>seem to be two trees and shrubs bearing ripe plums.
>
>However, I don't want to be poisoned due to incorrect identification. Does
>anybody know of a website that provides identification? Are any plum-like
>bushes/trees poisonous?
Effectively not. If you are really paranoid, wait for spring and
use the flowers to check that they are members of the Rosaceae.
Provided that those fruits have plum-like stems and stones, I would
just go ahead.
Don't gorge yourself first time - start with a bite, then a mouthful,
then half a dozen mouthfuls and then what the hell? At a day's
separation. Some of them give some people indigestion.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Syd Rumpo 2005-09-14, 6:21 am |
|
"Davy" <david@REMOVETHISchobham.org.uk> wrote in message
news:5ZadnfPkIYAGQbrenZ2dnUVZ8qadnZ2d@brightview.com...
> We have just moved into a house with a large garden in Wiltshire and there
> seem to be two trees and shrubs bearing ripe plums.
>
> However, I don't want to be poisoned due to incorrect identification.
Does
> anybody know of a website that provides identification? Are any plum-like
> bushes/trees poisonous?
You're right to be worried. In Wiltshire in the past it was often the
habit to plant large trees bearing deadly poisonous fruit, solely for
the purpose of killing off any incomers foolish enough to try eating any.
Dig them up now, while you still have the chance.
Syd
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-09-14, 9:21 am |
| The message <5ZadnfPkIYAGQbrenZ2dnUVZ8qadnZ2d@brightview.com>
from "Davy" <david@REMOVETHISchobham.org.uk> contains these words:
> One plant is bushy, about 10ft high, has oval pointed fine-toothed leaves
> about 3cm long. Fruit light-red about size of a cherry. They taste like
> plums.
Google for 'cherry plum'.
> The other is a tree, has oval pointed fine-toothed leaves about 6cm long.
> The fruits are bright yellow, twice the size of a cherry. I haven't tried
> tasting these.
Sounds like another variety of cherry plum.
Take out a stone from each, crack them, and try the kernels. If they are
bitter and taste a bit of almond, then they are very likely some sort of
plum or bullace. They certainly sound like it.
Or better, ask a neighbour who knew the previous incumbent.
--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Malcolm 2005-09-14, 10:21 am |
|
In article <3oq7crF76kk8U1@individual.net>, Syd Rumpo
<sr255@hotmail.com> writes
>
>"Davy" <david@REMOVETHISchobham.org.uk> wrote in message
>news:5ZadnfPkIYAGQbrenZ2dnUVZ8qadnZ2d@brightview.com...
>
>Does
>
>
>You're right to be worried. In Wiltshire in the past it was often the
>habit to plant large trees bearing deadly poisonous fruit, solely for
>the purpose of killing off any incomers foolish enough to try eating any.
>Dig them up now, while you still have the chance.
>
LOL!
Your tongue may be in your cheek, but can the reader see it?
--
Malcolm
| |
|
| Dear Master,
I googled 'cherry plum' and it led me to the excellent web site which has a
key for identifying trees and shrubs in summer and winter:
http://www-saps.plantsci.cam.ac.uk/trees/index.htm
which, as you suggested allowed me to identify the trees as cherry plums.
Decorative trees (similar to flowering cherries) with edible but poor fruit.
Regarding your suggestion of cracking the kernels and testing for a bitter,
almond taste, I am afraid that I have read too many Agatha Christies to be
tempted to do that.
Besides, the other respondent, Syd Rumpo, who seems to know more than a
little about local customs, has already given me a useful warning.
thanks
Davy - PS your English is very good for a Frenchman.
"Jaques d'Alltrades" <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3130303032303038432813B157@foobar.zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <5ZadnfPkIYAGQbrenZ2dnUVZ8qadnZ2d@brightview.com>
> from "Davy" <david@REMOVETHISchobham.org.uk> contains these words:
>
leaves[color=darkred]
like[color=darkred]
>
> Google for 'cherry plum'.
>
long.[color=darkred]
tried[color=darkred]
>
> Sounds like another variety of cherry plum.
>
> Take out a stone from each, crack them, and try the kernels. If they are
> bitter and taste a bit of almond, then they are very likely some sort of
> plum or bullace. They certainly sound like it.
>
> Or better, ask a neighbour who knew the previous incumbent.
>
> --
> Rusty
> Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
> http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Pam Moore 2005-09-14, 12:21 pm |
| On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:33:20 +0100, "Davy"
<david@REMOVETHISchobham.org.uk> wrote:
>
>Regarding your suggestion of cracking the kernels and testing for a bitter,
>almond taste, I am afraid that I have read too many Agatha Christies to be
>tempted to do that.
As a child I used to enjoy cracking the stones from plums etc and
eating the nuts. I'm still here! I've never heard of wanything
plum-like which is not edible, or certainly not poisonous. If if
tastes good I'm sure it will be OK to eat, but follow Nick's advice if
you are that cautious. Would the previous owners have grown anything
poisonous do you think? I guess you HAVE read too much Agatha
Christie!!
Pam in Bristol
| |
| david taylor 2005-09-14, 1:21 pm |
| Don't eat the kernels!
I've worked on a sodium cyanide plant and know the smell, toxicity limits
etc of HCN. The kernels of plums ,apricots etc are used for flavouring jams,
but I read once that some health fiends killed themselves by eating about
40 apple pips(smell the HCN when they are cracked) in a muesli.
The interesting point about cyanide is that if you have a sub-fatal dose you
recover without permanent ill effect.
I once had a sub lethal dose, which had the effect of disorientation. We had
rushed off to the golf course after work and the effect was to double what
was already a poor score for the course.
Regards
David T
"Pam Moore" <NOSpam.moore@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:7fegi1hs2rffrjbb5uhv7oigf84308842g@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:33:20 +0100, "Davy"
> <david@REMOVETHISchobham.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> As a child I used to enjoy cracking the stones from plums etc and
> eating the nuts. I'm still here! I've never heard of wanything
> plum-like which is not edible, or certainly not poisonous. If if
> tastes good I'm sure it will be OK to eat, but follow Nick's advice if
> you are that cautious. Would the previous owners have grown anything
> poisonous do you think? I guess you HAVE read too much Agatha
> Christie!!
>
> Pam in Bristol
| |
| Chris Hogg 2005-09-14, 4:21 pm |
| On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:35:26 +0100, "david taylor"
<davidtaylor1@onetel.com> wrote:
>Don't eat the kernels!
>I've worked on a sodium cyanide plant and know the smell, toxicity limits
>etc of HCN. The kernels of plums ,apricots etc are used for flavouring jams,
>but I read once that some health fiends killed themselves by eating about
>40 apple pips(smell the HCN when they are cracked) in a muesli.
>The interesting point about cyanide is that if you have a sub-fatal dose you
>recover without permanent ill effect.
>I once had a sub lethal dose, which had the effect of disorientation. We had
>rushed off to the golf course after work and the effect was to double what
>was already a poor score for the course.
>Regards
>David T
Quote from http://www.aboutmead.com/resources/...99/12-01-99.txt
"Apple seeds average around 0.6 mg hydrogen cyanide (HCN) per gram of
dry seed. Since the lethal dose of HCN is estimated to be about 50 mg,
you need around 85 grams (3 ounces) of dry seeds. This is around half
a cup"
Whether the figures are correct, and whether it takes 40 apple pips to
half-fill a cup, I don't know, but it does suggest that eating a
particularly large number could be lethal.
However, seeds (and leaves) of many prunus species (almonds are the
obvious example) and other rosaceae (such as apples, as here) contain
cyanide precursors. It's what gives almonds their distinct flavour.
But, as with apple pips, you do have to eat rather a lot to be at
risk.
--
Chris
E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net
| |
| Duncan 2005-09-14, 6:21 pm |
|
"david taylor" <davidtaylor1@onetel.com> wrote in message
news:4328430c@212.67.96.135...
> Don't eat the kernels!
> I've worked on a sodium cyanide plant and know the smell, toxicity limits
> etc of HCN. The kernels of plums ,apricots etc are used for flavouring
jams,
> but I read once that some health fiends killed themselves by eating about
> 40 apple pips(smell the HCN when they are cracked) in a muesli.
> The interesting point about cyanide is that if you have a sub-fatal dose
you
> recover without permanent ill effect.
> I once had a sub lethal dose, which had the effect of disorientation. We
had
> rushed off to the golf course after work and the effect was to double
what
> was already a poor score for the course.
> Regards
> David T
Well, I reckon my 4 year old son must eat about 20 apple pips some days, as
the only bit of an apple he doesn't eat is the woody stalk. He doesn't seem
to suffer any ill effects - I'll be asking him in the morning whether he
chews them up.
Duncan
| |
| Chris Bacon 2005-09-14, 7:21 pm |
| Davy wrote:
> We have just moved into a house with a large garden in Wiltshire and there
> seem to be two trees and shrubs bearing ripe plums.
>
> However, I don't want to be poisoned due to incorrect identification. Does
> anybody know of a website that provides identification? Are any plum-like
> bushes/trees poisonous?
>
> The fruits are round and now ripe.
>
> One plant is bushy, about 10ft high, has oval pointed fine-toothed leaves
> about 3cm long. Fruit light-red about size of a cherry. They taste like
> plums.
>
> The other is a tree, has oval pointed fine-toothed leaves about 6cm long.
> The fruits are bright yellow, twice the size of a cherry. I haven't tried
> tasting these.
Oh, you lucky thing. You can put these in pies and crumbles. An
interesting thing (to me) is that they don't seem to be very
susceptible by attacks of creepy-crawlies (notable exception -
some black ones I saw with clear "worm casts" of jelly-like
colourless transparent stuff on the skins).
I suppose you've a crab-apple tree in your garden, which fruit
make such lovely winey jelly to go with roast lamb? Don't tell
me about the elder bush, I'm off to raid the kitchen *right now*.
| |
| Pam Moore 2005-09-14, 7:21 pm |
| On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:12:28 +0100, Chris Hogg <me@privacy.net> wrote:
[color=darkred]
So what is kirsch made from? I thought it was the cherry kernels.
Pam in Bristol
| |
| Malcolm 2005-09-14, 7:21 pm |
|
In article <432895b0$1_2@x-privat.org>, Chris Bacon
<chrispbacon@thai.com> writes
>Davy wrote:
>
>Oh, you lucky thing. You can put these in pies and crumbles. An
>interesting thing (to me) is that they don't seem to be very
>susceptible by attacks of creepy-crawlies (notable exception -
>some black ones I saw with clear "worm casts" of jelly-like
>colourless transparent stuff on the skins).
>
I've always thought that was juice from the interior coagulating on the
skin not any kind of creepy-crawly.
--
Malcolm
| |
| Malcolm 2005-09-14, 7:21 pm |
|
In article <dga2o0$fm$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, Duncan
<dunks.spamcan@btinternet.com> writes
>
>"david taylor" <davidtaylor1@onetel.com> wrote in message
>news:4328430c@212.67.96.135...
>jams,
>you
>had
>what
>
>Well, I reckon my 4 year old son must eat about 20 apple pips some days, as
>the only bit of an apple he doesn't eat is the woody stalk. He doesn't seem
>to suffer any ill effects - I'll be asking him in the morning whether he
>chews them up.
>
I had a teacher at school, when I was about 10 or 11, who said that
apple pips were the commonest cause of appendicitis and that we should
either spit them out or chew them up!
Rather too many years, and a *very* large number (I invariably eat the
cores) of apple pips, some swallowed, some chewed, later, I'm still
alive and still have my appendix!
I find your story of 40 pips killing people truly astonishing. In fact,
unless you can find a reference to it, I find it unbelievable!!
--
Malcolm
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-09-14, 10:21 pm |
| The message <Foh0qpDvpJKDFwVq@indaal.demon.co.uk>
from Malcolm <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> I had a teacher at school, when I was about 10 or 11, who said that
> apple pips were the commonest cause of appendicitis and that we should
> either spit them out or chew them up!
Old wives' tale.
--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Malcolm 2005-09-15, 4:21 am |
|
In article <31303030323030384328CF1335@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>, Jaques
d'Alltrades <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> writes
>The message <Foh0qpDvpJKDFwVq@indaal.demon.co.uk>
>from Malcolm <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
>
>
>Old wives' tale.
>
The teacher was male(1).
(1) and heterosexual :-)
--
Malcolm
| |
| Michael Calwell 2005-09-15, 12:21 pm |
| Davy wrote:
>
> The other is a tree, has oval pointed fine-toothed leaves about 6cm long.
> The fruits are bright yellow, twice the size of a cherry. I haven't tried
> tasting these.
>
Mirabella plums?
| |
| Pam Moore 2005-09-15, 12:21 pm |
| On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:18:10 +0100, Michael Calwell <fac@fac> wrote:
>Davy wrote:
>
>Mirabella plums?
Sounds like the description of the Miralbelles I have had in France.
Delicious. I brought some stones home and have a few small plants on
my allotment. In Switzerland recently, the hotel had bowls of tinned
fruit at breakfast and I think these were the same. Also delicious!
Pam in Bristol
| |
| Cat(h) 2005-09-15, 1:21 pm |
|
Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:35:26 +0100, "david taylor"
> <davidtaylor1@onetel.com> wrote:
>
>
> Quote from http://www.aboutmead.com/resources/...99/12-01-99.txt
>
> "Apple seeds average around 0.6 mg hydrogen cyanide (HCN) per gram of
> dry seed. Since the lethal dose of HCN is estimated to be about 50 mg,
> you need around 85 grams (3 ounces) of dry seeds. This is around half
> a cup"
>
> Whether the figures are correct, and whether it takes 40 apple pips to
> half-fill a cup, I don't know, but it does suggest that eating a
> particularly large number could be lethal.
>
> However, seeds (and leaves) of many prunus species (almonds are the
> obvious example) and other rosaceae (such as apples, as here) contain
> cyanide precursors. It's what gives almonds their distinct flavour.
> But, as with apple pips, you do have to eat rather a lot to be at
> risk.
>
>
Gasp! I'm one of those apple fiends who eats around 3 to 4 apples each
day pips and all - first of the day chopped up in morning porridge -
(only uneaten residue for compost heap being the little stem).
Is the effect of the HCN cumulative?
Could it explain all sorts of ermm things?
Seriously... should I core my apples?
Cat(h)
The world swirls...
| |
| Michael Calwell 2005-09-15, 1:21 pm |
| Pam Moore wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:18:10 +0100, Michael Calwell <fac@fac> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Sounds like the description of the Miralbelles I have had in France.
> Delicious. I brought some stones home and have a few small plants on
> my allotment. In Switzerland recently, the hotel had bowls of tinned
> fruit at breakfast and I think these were the same. Also delicious!
>
> Pam in Bristol
Pick them now - soon will be too late.
| |
| Chris Hogg 2005-09-15, 2:21 pm |
| On 15 Sep 2005 08:36:24 -0700, "Cat(h)" <cathy_ie@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>Gasp! I'm one of those apple fiends who eats around 3 to 4 apples each
>day pips and all - first of the day chopped up in morning porridge -
>(only uneaten residue for compost heap being the little stem).
>Is the effect of the HCN cumulative?
>Could it explain all sorts of ermm things?
>Seriously... should I core my apples?
>
>Cat(h)
>The world swirls...
If you're still alive and not posting from 'the other side', I
wouldn't give it another thought. OTOH, if you are on 'the other
side', it's too late! :-)
--
Chris
E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net
| |
| Chris Hogg 2005-09-15, 2:21 pm |
| On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:41:22 GMT, Pam Moore
<NOSpam.moore@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:12:28 +0100, Chris Hogg <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>So what is kirsch made from? I thought it was the cherry kernels.
>
>Pam in Bristol
Pam, that's not a quote from me, but from DT. Can't help with the
kirsch anyway.
--
Chris
E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-09-20, 5:21 pm |
| In article <QgzxIZCmgRKDFw3j@indaal.demon.co.uk>,
Malcolm <MAO@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <31303030323030384328CF1335@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>, Jaques
>d'Alltrades <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> writes
>The teacher was male(1).
>
>(1) and heterosexual :-)
Old wives come in all ages and sexes.
Half a cup sounds plausible - 40 pips doesn't. I think that you could
probably kill yourself by adding plum kernels to muesli, but it would
make it very bitter.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Grumach Macabre of Auchterloonie 2005-09-20, 7:21 pm |
| The message <dgpngm$afn$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
> Half a cup sounds plausible - 40 pips doesn't. I think that you could
> probably kill yourself by adding plum kernels to muesli, but it would
> make it very bitter.
When I make plum, damson or apricot jam I always add the kernels to it -
but then, HCN is thermolabile.
--
,,,
}»«<üüüü(@>
´ ´
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-09-21, 6:21 am |
| In article <31303030323030384330918826@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
Grumach Macabre of Auchterloonie <grumach@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>The message <dgpngm$afn$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
>from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
>
>
>When I make plum, damson or apricot jam I always add the kernels to it -
>but then, HCN is thermolabile.
Yes. I have never worked out exactly what happens to the cyanide,
and what forms it comes in (before and after), but I believe that
cooking is pretty effective at reducing its toxicity.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Malcolm 2005-09-21, 7:21 am |
|
In article <dgr6dv$cd9$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Nick Maclaren
<nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> writes
>In article <31303030323030384330918826@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
>Grumach Macabre of Auchterloonie <grumach@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Yes. I have never worked out exactly what happens to the cyanide,
>and what forms it comes in (before and after), but I believe that
>cooking is pretty effective at reducing its toxicity.
>
As every cook since Mrs Beeton, and probably for years before her, has
been recommending the adding of kernels to plum jam, it can't be that
toxic!
--
Malcolm
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-09-21, 8:21 am |
|
In article <RnnBJcSugSMDFw3X@indaal.demon.co.uk>,
Malcolm <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes:
|>
|> >>> Half a cup sounds plausible - 40 pips doesn't. I think that you could
|> >>> probably kill yourself by adding plum kernels to muesli, but it would
|> >>> make it very bitter.
|> >>
|> >>When I make plum, damson or apricot jam I always add the kernels to it -
|> >>but then, HCN is thermolabile.
|> >
|> >Yes. I have never worked out exactly what happens to the cyanide,
|> >and what forms it comes in (before and after), but I believe that
|> >cooking is pretty effective at reducing its toxicity.
|> >
|> As every cook since Mrs Beeton, and probably for years before her, has
|> been recommending the adding of kernels to plum jam, it can't be that
|> toxic!
Her predecessors, and probably her (I should have to check), also
recommended making pickles in untinned copper vessels to produce
a bright green colour. Many of them also recommended sweetening
fermentable preserves with sugar of lead (lead acetate), which
has the advantage that it doesn't ferment.
Cooked plum kernels can't be all that toxic, but uncooked ones
may well be fairly lethal in quantity. As someone pointed out,
cyanide has the property that sub-lethal doses are completely
harmless once the immediate symptoms have passed.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
|
| On 21/9/05 9:42 am, in article dgr6dv$cd9$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk, "Nick
Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <31303030323030384330918826@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
> Grumach Macabre of Auchterloonie <grumach@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Yes. I have never worked out exactly what happens to the cyanide,
> and what forms it comes in (before and after), but I believe that
> cooking is pretty effective at reducing its toxicity.
I was away from school the week we did chemistry but presumably this is akin
to what happens to red kidney beans - very dangerous if not cooked for long
enough, minimum of 20 mins. boiling etc. NB, I said akin, not the same as!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)
| |
| Grumach Macabre of Auchterloonie 2005-09-21, 9:21 am |
| The message <dgrcim$pa3$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
> In article <RnnBJcSugSMDFw3X@indaal.demon.co.uk>,
> Malcolm <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes:
> |> As every cook since Mrs Beeton, and probably for years before her, has
> |> been recommending the adding of kernels to plum jam, it can't be that
> |> toxic!
> Her predecessors, and probably her (I should have to check), also
> recommended making pickles in untinned copper vessels to produce
> a bright green colour.
Possibly - but then she didn't write her recipes, and probably tried
very few of them. Thet were mainly sent in by readers of the magazine
which bore her name (published by Mr. Beeton).
Many of the published recipes are pure spoof, and I hope the wags who
sent them in are being roasted down under [1] for all the gallons of
wasted cream, butter, eggs, etc..
> Many of them also recommended sweetening
> fermentable preserves with sugar of lead (lead acetate), which
> has the advantage that it doesn't ferment.
Yes, it was the practice to sweeten fortified wines with sugar of lead.
Some suggest that this was the cause of George III's recurring
'madness', as he consumed large quantities of the stuff.
> Cooked plum kernels can't be all that toxic, but uncooked ones
> may well be fairly lethal in quantity. As someone pointed out,
> cyanide has the property that sub-lethal doses are completely
> harmless once the immediate symptoms have passed.
However, I'll pass on trying it out.
[1] You can read 'down under' how you will - there's not much difference.
Allegedly.
--
,,,
}»«<üüüü(@>
´ ´
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-09-21, 9:21 am |
|
In article <31303030323030384331526B66@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>,
Grumach Macabre of Auchterloonie <grumach@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> writes:
|>
|> > |> As every cook since Mrs Beeton, and probably for years before her, has
|> > |> been recommending the adding of kernels to plum jam, it can't be that
|> > |> toxic!
|>
|> > Her predecessors, and probably her (I should have to check), also
|> > recommended making pickles in untinned copper vessels to produce
|> > a bright green colour.
|>
|> Possibly - but then she didn't write her recipes, and probably tried
|> very few of them. Thet were mainly sent in by readers of the magazine
|> which bore her name (published by Mr. Beeton).
It was standard practice. What I was pointing out is that such
long-standing usage doesn't provide any evidence of harmlessness.
|> Many of the published recipes are pure spoof, and I hope the wags who
|> sent them in are being roasted down under [1] for all the gallons of
|> wasted cream, butter, eggs, etc..
Most of them are very practical - in fact, I don't know of any
that aren't. You may not be a cholesterolic, but many people
were then, and there are some of us who still are :-)
Can you give the number[*] of one that you regard as pure spoof?
[*] Original edition. Or other identification.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-09-21, 1:21 pm |
| The message <dgrh2h$5tb$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
> |> Many of the published recipes are pure spoof, and I hope the wags who
> |> sent them in are being roasted down under [1] for all the gallons of
> |> wasted cream, butter, eggs, etc..
> Most of them are very practical - in fact, I don't know of any
> that aren't. You may not be a cholesterolic, but many people
> were then, and there are some of us who still are :-)
No, most of the 'joke' ones were removed a *LONG* time ago.
> Can you give the number[*] of one that you regard as pure spoof?
> [*] Original edition. Or other identification.
No, I haven't got my original one any longer - some lucky hooter's got it.
--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Mike Lyle 2005-09-23, 2:21 pm |
| Grumach Macabre of Auchterloonie wrote:
> The message <dgrcim$pa3$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>
> from nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
>
her,[color=darkred]
can't[color=darkred]
To be fair, Isabella said you could add a _few_ kernels.
[color=darkred]
No, just checked the 1861 edition (I hasten to add, lest any
fellow-bibliophile plan a burglary, that I have only the facsimile),
and on page 32 she says "Copper utensils should never be used in the
kitchen unless tinned, and the utmost care should be taken, not to
let the tin be rubbed off. If by any chance this should occur, have
it replaced before the vessel is again brought into use." She's quite
firm on that page and another that food mustn't, once cooked, be left
in these pans. The 1906 edition (not, of course, by Beeton herself)
recommends wrought steel rather than tinned copper, citing the
danger.[color=darkred]
>
> Possibly - but then she didn't write her recipes, and probably
tried
> very few of them. Thet were mainly sent in by readers of the
magazine
> which bore her name (published by Mr. Beeton).
This is true, though I don't know the proportions.
>
> Many of the published recipes are pure spoof, and I hope the wags
who
> sent them in are being roasted down under [1] for all the gallons
of
> wasted cream, butter, eggs, etc..
Confirming what Nick says downthread, the recipes I've looked into do
seem to work, though some are distinctly odd (check out the recipe
for mango chutney, which revealed that the great woman not only
couldn't spell "chutney", but also doesn't seem to have known what a
mango was).
[...]
>
> [1] You can read 'down under' how you will - there's not much
> difference.
>
> Allegedly.
Glad you put that "allegedly" in, mate! Just because you lot
deservedly regained the Cinders, there's no need to get uppity.
--
Mike.
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-09-23, 3:21 pm |
| In article <3piqefFakuc7U1@individual.net>,
Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>who
>of
>
>Confirming what Nick says downthread, the recipes I've looked into do
>seem to work, though some are distinctly odd (check out the recipe
>for mango chutney, which revealed that the great woman not only
>couldn't spell "chutney", but also doesn't seem to have known what a
>mango was).
I can believe the latter, but exactly why do you feel that there
is a correct spelling of chatni in Roman letters? Transliterating
Hindi (I think) to English is harder than transliterating Russian
(as in Tsebysef and over 200 variants) :-)
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Mike Lyle 2005-09-23, 6:21 pm |
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <3piqefFakuc7U1@individual.net>,
> Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
do[color=darkred]
a[color=darkred]
>
> I can believe the latter, but exactly why do you feel that there
> is a correct spelling of chatni in Roman letters? Transliterating
> Hindi (I think) to English is harder than transliterating Russian
> (as in Tsebysef and over 200 variants) :-)
Not even the most alcohol-adultery-and-altitude-sodden Victorian
sahib would have qualified for the epithet "pukka" had he publicly
used the spelling "chetney". The lofty OED doesn't dignify it with a
mention, even to condemn it as a solecism.
The offending recipe -- which I have made, in modestly scaled-down
quantity, and found very good -- calls for 30 large unripe sour
apples with, among other things (but no mangoes), 3/4 lb powdered
ginger and 1/4 lb dried chillies. I don't generally approve of apple
chutney, but after that, I found it no surprise that the Victorians
conquered the entire bloody planet.
--
Mike.
| |
| Jaques d'Alltrades 2005-09-23, 9:21 pm |
| The message <3pj908Faquc2U2@individual.net>
from "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> contains these words:
[color=darkred]
> Not even the most alcohol-adultery-and-altitude-sodden Victorian
> sahib would have qualified for the epithet "pukka" had he publicly
> used the spelling "chetney". The lofty OED doesn't dignify it with a
> mention, even to condemn it as a solecism.
A Hindi-speaking friend states it is pronounced (more-or-less) 'catney'.
But the Indian sub-continent is rather large, and if words can change
their sounds from region to region in this country, how much more so
might they do so there.
> The offending recipe -- which I have made, in modestly scaled-down
> quantity, and found very good -- calls for 30 large unripe sour
> apples with, among other things (but no mangoes), 3/4 lb powdered
> ginger and 1/4 lb dried chillies. I don't generally approve of apple
> chutney, but after that, I found it no surprise that the Victorians
> conquered the entire bloody planet.
I have visions of artillery firing salvos of Lady Cardigan's Green
Tomato Surprise...
--
Rusty
Emus to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co full-stop uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
| |
| Malcolm 2005-09-24, 4:21 am |
|
In article <31303030323030384334A3F470@foobar.zetnet.co.uk>, Jaques
d'Alltrades <creaking.gate@foobar.zetnet.co.uk> writes
>The message <3pj908Faquc2U2@individual.net>
>from "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> contains these words:
>
>
>
>A Hindi-speaking friend states it is pronounced (more-or-less) 'catney'.
>But the Indian sub-continent is rather large, and if words can change
>their sounds from region to region in this country, how much more so
>might they do so there.
>
There are at least a dozen distinct dialects of Hindi.
>
>I have visions of artillery firing salvos of Lady Cardigan's Green
>Tomato Surprise...
>
:-)
--
Malcolm
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2005-09-24, 7:21 am |
| In article <3pj908Faquc2U2@individual.net>,
Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Not even the most alcohol-adultery-and-altitude-sodden Victorian
>sahib would have qualified for the epithet "pukka" had he publicly
>used the spelling "chetney". The lofty OED doesn't dignify it with a
>mention, even to condemn it as a solecism.
Hmm. Well, as the examples that it does give are chatna, chitny,
chutney and chutnee, methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.
>The offending recipe -- which I have made, in modestly scaled-down
>quantity, and found very good -- calls for 30 large unripe sour
>apples with, among other things (but no mangoes), 3/4 lb powdered
>ginger and 1/4 lb dried chillies. I don't generally approve of apple
>chutney, but after that, I found it no surprise that the Victorians
>conquered the entire bloody planet.
In search of an antidote?
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
|
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