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Leaf drop on new holly
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| BlueFlower 2007-10-14, 5:25 pm |
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Hi, I wonder can anyone help me? I have a Blue Princess holly and a J.C.
Van Tol that I planted in two different areas of my newly created garden
in May. Unfortunately over the summer they both have lost some leaves,
leaving them a bit leggy. Any ideas why this would have happened? Will
the leaves grow back next year or will I be left with leggy plants?
Should I prune them? (They were bought with the root ball wrapped in
hessian, which I planted intact as I'd heard that hollies don't like
their roots being disturbed.)
Many thanks!
--
BlueFlower
| |
|
| On 14/10/07 21:19, in article BlueFlower.1882609@gardenbanter.co.uk,
"BlueFlower" <BlueFlower.1882609@gardenbanter.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi, I wonder can anyone help me? I have a Blue Princess holly and a J.C.
> Van Tol that I planted in two different areas of my newly created garden
> in May. Unfortunately over the summer they both have lost some leaves,
> leaving them a bit leggy. Any ideas why this would have happened? Will
> the leaves grow back next year or will I be left with leggy plants?
> Should I prune them? (They were bought with the root ball wrapped in
> hessian, which I planted intact as I'd heard that hollies don't like
> their roots being disturbed.)
>
Can you imagine spending your entire life with your feet treated as those of
Chinese girls in time long gone? A long time ago I used to have an Irish
gardener who, when he planted anything, big or small, inevitably said to me
"will I plant 'em in de pots"?
The answer was 'no' because the roots are constricted. While the soil is
still warm, resurrect the hollies, take off the hessian and replant the
hollies, making sure the hole you've dug for them is at least a third larger
than the current root ball. Some people will tell you to tease out the
roots a little - I do - my husband says people break them and damage the
plant further. Up to you. If there is a dry spell where you're gardening,
keep them watered.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
| |
| Janet Tweedy 2007-10-15, 1:25 pm |
| In article <C3384EDB.5C4A8%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>, Sacha
<sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>The answer was 'no' because the roots are constricted. While the soil is
>still warm, resurrect the hollies, take off the hessian and replant the
>hollies,
Sacha. if you wanted standard hollies would it be wiser to grow them
first in the soil then transplanted them to the eventual pot when they
had reached their desired height?
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
| |
|
| On 15/10/07 18:06, in article jAn4g9LQ45EHFwTA@ukonline.co.uk, "Janet
Tweedy" <jan@lancedal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <C3384EDB.5C4A8%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>, Sacha
> <sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>
>
> Sacha. if you wanted standard hollies would it be wiser to grow them
> first in the soil then transplanted them to the eventual pot when they
> had reached their desired height?
I've never done this Janet, so I asked Ray. He says start them in the pots
selecting plants with strong leaders and stems. I'm assuming you want to
keep them potted? If not, plant them out once they're 3'-4' tall, says R.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
| |
| helene@urbed.coop 2007-10-15, 5:25 pm |
| On Oct 14, 9:19 pm, BlueFlower <BlueFlower.1882...@gardenbanter.co.uk>
wrote:
> Hi, I wonder can anyone help me? I have a Blue Princess holly and a J.C.
> Van Tol that I planted in two different areas of my newly created garden
> in May. Unfortunately over the summer they both have lost some leaves,
> leaving them a bit leggy. Any ideas why this would have happened? Will
> the leaves grow back next year or will I be left with leggy plants?
> Should I prune them? (They were bought with the root ball wrapped in
> hessian, which I planted intact as I'd heard that hollies don't like
> their roots being disturbed.)
You should have removed the hessian and teased out some of the roots,
making a hole large enough to make sure the roots would have plenty of
space to grow. Also yellowing of the leaves sounds to me that they
also might not be in a well drained environment. Now would be a good
time to pull them out and start again. How tall are they, how old and
are they in full sun?
| |
|
| On 15/10/07 22:58, in article
1192485506.774417.302270@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "helene@urbed.coop"
<helene@urbed.coop> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 9:19 pm, BlueFlower <BlueFlower.1882...@gardenbanter.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> You should have removed the hessian and teased out some of the roots,
> making a hole large enough to make sure the roots would have plenty of
> space to grow. Also yellowing of the leaves sounds to me that they
> also might not be in a well drained environment. Now would be a good
> time to pull them out and start again. How tall are they, how old and
> are they in full sun?
>
Hollies grow in sun and in shade. Also, I think the problem here is that
the roots have had nowhere to go, so couldn't pick up any nutrients at an
important stage in their development, i.e. adjusting to their new
environment.
If they've been bundled up in hessian, no, they're not in a well-drained
environment!! They are in a soggy mass of sacking, holding in water, that
is not going to drain any better as winter sets in. Not disturbing the
roots means digging them up and moving them to another location at some
point. It doesn't mean merely releasing them from the container in which
you received them. While it's important to keep newly planted things
well-watered in dry spells, it's also important to be sure that they drain,
too. Very few plants like to have their roots standing in water most of the
time and that is a big plant killer.
Note to original poster: don't 'pull' them out - they're already under
stress. Lift them out carefully with a fork that you have carefully
inserted away from and well under the hessian ball, take off the hessian,
re-plant. Teasing the roots out is up to you, as I said earlier - opinions
differ on that one. They don't like lime soils but if you bought them
locally, it's to be hoped you got them from somewhere that caters to your
area.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
| |
| helene@urbed.coop 2007-10-16, 9:25 am |
| On 15 Oct, 23:21, Sacha <sa...@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Hollies grow in sun and in shade. Also, I think the problem here is that
> the roots have had nowhere to go, so couldn't pick up any nutrients at an
> important stage in their development, i.e. adjusting to their new
> environment.
There is a fungi disease that is serious if the tree is in damp and
shade and which attack the leaves and then the twigs. If the tree is
kept at the base to light and with plenty of air it will thrive, hence
my question about sun or shade. I am not entirely sure that BlueFlower
has kept the hessian bag on - I feel we can only speculate from her
post. If we also know the age, and possibly the species, it sometimes
can help identifying the problems. I'm thinking about variegated
variety which looses lots of leaves in the autumn like the altaclenris
- there's one in a garden nearby with all the leaves at the base
totally yellow/white. This is not a disease but merely the chlorophyl
not doing it's thing under a very thick canopy. Which reminds me I've
always wanted the 'hedgehog' one - something I'd like to train as a
standard possibly. Since I've cleared up our 20m high holy from it's
dusty horrible base of dead branches etc. the bark underneath is
beautiful - a green that shine even in the deepest, greyest, 'orrible
northern winter's day :o)
| |
| Janet Tweedy 2007-10-16, 9:25 am |
| In article <C339A070.5C594%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>, Sacha
<sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>I've never done this Janet, so I asked Ray. He says start them in the pots
>selecting plants with strong leaders and stems. I'm assuming you want to
>keep them potted?
Yes I would like them potted it was just that I thought from your other
email that they might get to the desired height quicker if I put them in
the soil for a couple of years!
It's cheaper to grow my own than buy them.....
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
| |
| adder1969 2007-10-16, 9:25 am |
| On Oct 16, 12:53 pm, Janet Tweedy <j...@lancedal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes I would like them potted it was just that I thought from your other
> email that they might get to the desired height quicker if I put them in
> the soil for a couple of years!
>
> It's cheaper to grow my own than buy them.....
>
> --
Stuff in my garden grow much much better in the soil than in pots. I
have a holly that I moved, and it came to no harm whatsoever. I've
just moved it again and so far it seems fine.
| |
|
| On 16/10/07 12:45, in article
1192535105.492930.296900@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "helene@urbed.coop"
<helene@urbed.coop> wrote:
> On 15 Oct, 23:21, Sacha <sa...@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> There is a fungi disease that is serious if the tree is in damp and
> shade and which attack the leaves and then the twigs. If the tree is
> kept at the base to light and with plenty of air it will thrive, hence
> my question about sun or shade. I am not entirely sure that BlueFlower
> has kept the hessian bag on - I feel we can only speculate from her
> post.
I cannot see anything speculative in: "They were bought with the root ball
wrapped in hessian, which I planted intact as I'd heard that hollies don't
like their roots being disturbed."
<snip>
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
| |
|
| Sacha wrote:
>
> I cannot see anything speculative in: "They were bought with the
> root ball wrapped in hessian, which I planted intact as I'd heard
> that hollies don't like their roots being disturbed."
>
> <snip>
but the removal of Hessian wrapping is not so clear cut as you suggest :
See http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profil...rootwrapped.asp
pk
| |
| Janet Tweedy 2007-10-16, 1:25 pm |
| In article <Zd6dndTMCPRLXonanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com>, p.k.
<designer3579-news@yahoo.com> writes
>but the removal of Hessian wrapping is not so clear cut as you suggest :
>See http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profil...rootwrapped.asp
>
>pk
>
>
The RHS text says for 'placement' in hole, only, not leaving it there
and backfilling!
The builders at a house we used to lives at some years ago had left the
hessian sack on every one of a row of conifers in the garden. Luckily it
killed the conifers stone dead after three years as they couldn't fight
their way out of the sacking
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
| |
| Janet Tweedy 2007-10-16, 1:25 pm |
| In article <C33A75A9.5C651%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>, Sacha
<sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>I cannot see anything speculative in: "They were bought with the root ball
>wrapped in hessian, which I planted intact as I'd heard that hollies don't
>like their roots being disturbed."
>
I assumed the same thing Sacha. I'm sure the OP wouldn't have considered
'unintacting' the actual roots themselves!
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
| |
|
| On 16/10/07 16:16, in article AWSQ1MDCXNFHFw$U@ukonline.co.uk, "Janet
Tweedy" <jan@lancedal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <C33A75A9.5C651%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>, Sacha
> <sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>
> I assumed the same thing Sacha. I'm sure the OP wouldn't have considered
> 'unintacting' the actual roots themselves!
It sounds a bit like Peonies which everyone 'knows' can't bear to be
disturbed and yet, how many of us know people who have happily dug up theirs
and moved them around the garden, only to have them flourish next year?!
I asked Ray about starting your hollies off in the ground and then potting
them up. He says you can always try it but feels you'll get healthier
plants in the end if they start their lives in pots and remain that way. If
you have a number to 'play' with, would it be worth experimenting?
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
| |
| helene@urbed.coop 2007-10-16, 5:25 pm |
| On Oct 16, 2:05 pm, Sacha <sa...@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> I cannot see anything speculative in: "They were bought with the root ball
> wrapped in hessian, which I planted intact as I'd heard that hollies don't
> like their roots being disturbed."
You may be right. I just find it a bit strange. I wouldn't have done
it. That's why I want to know how old are these hollies and
confirmation from BlueFlower. Where is she?!
| |
|
| On 16/10/07 14:58, in article Zd6dndTMCPRLXonanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com,
"p.k." <designer3579-news@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sacha wrote:
>
> but the removal of Hessian wrapping is not so clear cut as you suggest :
> See http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profil...rootwrapped.asp
>
> pk
>
>
Most of that site seems to me to indicate that leaving things wrapped in
hessian, or not at least, cutting holes in the hessian is begging for
trouble. I think the suppliers who are talking about not removing the
hessian are probably - probably - people who supply mature trees at huge
expense, e.g. Piante Innocenti. I don't think the OP indicates his or her
hollies are of that size and maturity.
But I think the OP can do no harm by looking at the roots of one the hollies
and seeing whether they've broken through the hessian to make a strong,
healthy, well established root system, or whether they're struggling in that
respect.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
| |
| ®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³ 2007-10-18, 1:25 pm |
| On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:53:35 +0100, Janet Tweedy
<jan@lancedal.demon.co.uk> wrote and included this (or some of this):
>
>Yes I would like them potted it was just that I thought from your other
>email that they might get to the desired height quicker if I put them in
>the soil for a couple of years!
9 years ago I had a lovely variegated holly standard, 7' tall with a
3' ball on top.
I had to move it as we were building a conservatory.
Got out as much roots as possible (not very much) and dragged it to a
new location.
It sulked for nearly 4 years, lost most of its leaves, and then
decided, bugger it, I'm going to live, and it did. Now it's really
thriving.
--
®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³
| |
|
| On 18/10/07 15:36, in article lhreh35pljpoif2fngfk01sl5mi6c5gh6u@4ax.com,
"®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³" <ron@spamall.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:53:35 +0100, Janet Tweedy
> <jan@lancedal.demon.co.uk> wrote and included this (or some of this):
>
>
> 9 years ago I had a lovely variegated holly standard, 7' tall with a
> 3' ball on top.
> I had to move it as we were building a conservatory.
> Got out as much roots as possible (not very much) and dragged it to a
> new location.
>
> It sulked for nearly 4 years, lost most of its leaves, and then
> decided, bugger it, I'm going to live, and it did. Now it's really
> thriving.
>
So it's a sort of 'might work, might not' situation, I think. If Janet
wants several and fairly quickly she *might* be taking a bit of a risk, as
well as having to wait 4 years. ;-)
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
| |
| Janet Tweedy 2007-10-18, 1:25 pm |
| In article <lhreh35pljpoif2fngfk01sl5mi6c5gh6u@4ax.com>, ®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³
<ron@spamall.com> writes
>It sulked for nearly 4 years, lost most of its leaves, and then
>decided, bugger it, I'm going to live, and it did. Now it's really
>thriving.
>
>
Well that's a relief. My 5 hollies are particularly nice variegated
specimens but still small, they will look really nice once bigger so I
think I might put 2 into very large pots and wait. They've been really
slow up till now
Won't bother with the ferox as I like the prickles at ground level to
stop next doors cat coming through a gap in my hedge
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
| |
| BlueFlower 2007-10-19, 5:25 pm |
|
> That's why I want to know how old are these hollies and
> confirmation from BlueFlower. Where is she?!
Hi folks,
Thanks for all your comments - sorry I haven't been around (due to a
bereavement) to set the record straight sooner.
I mentioned two hollies in my original post. The main one I am
concerned about is the Ilex meserveae Blue Princess. This was purchased
from a local wholesaler and had its roots wrapped up in a piece of
hessian, which he instructed me to plant intact, saying that hollies
don't like their roots disturbed and that they would grow through the
hessian. I told him that I wouldn't be planting the holly right away,
so he wrapped it in another piece of hessian, to keep it from drying
out. When it came to planting it a few weeks later, I removed the outer
piece of hessian, but planted it with the original hessian still intact.
Some new roots had already started to appear through the cloth even in
this short time, but I don't think they got damaged in the planting
process as they were only starting to peep through. The holly is about
four feet high - I don't know how old it would be, but I would imagine
that it's fairly young (it's not one of those expensive mature samples
you can buy). There are about half a dozen vertical branches with not
many side branches. It has lost most of its lower leaves to about
halfway up each branch. It is planted in front of a three foot (fairly
solid) fence in a raised bed facing south west, so it gets plenty of
sun. There is a good depth of loamy topsoil on top of a clay base and
would be fairly well draining because of the raised nature of the bed,
but we did have an awful lot of rain this summer here in Northern
Ireland! The bed is covered with the weed membrane and a layer of bark
chips.
What I would really like to know is, even if the hessian is the problem
and I remove it, will the holly grow new leaves where it has lost them
or will I end up with a leggy specimen?
The other holly I mentioned is an Ilex aquifolium J. C. van Tol, which
probably has more berries than leaves! It came from the same source but
was pot grown (no hessian involved this time - sorry for any confusion
in the first post). It has one main leading branch about four feet tall
with a few short horizontal branches. It was planted in the lawn, south
westerly aspect and four foot fence behind it. Although it has not lost
leaves to the extent that the Blue Princess has done, it still looks
very spindly and has not done anything all summer in terms of new
growth, although the berries are very nice!
--
BlueFlower
| |
|
| BlueFlower <BlueFlower.18ebd86@gardenbanter.co.uk> writes
It is planted in front of a three foot (fairly
solid) fence in a raised bed facing south west, so it gets plenty of
sun.
Getting plenty of sun isn't high up in the list of the holly's
priorities. They tend to grow in light woodland.
I'm not sure how happy they are in a raised bed on free draining soil.
--
Kay
| |
| BlueFlower 2007-10-20, 5:25 pm |
|
K;755203 Wrote:
> BlueFlower BlueFlower.18ebd86@gardenbanter.co.uk writes
> It is planted in front of a three foot (fairly
> solid) fence in a raised bed facing south west, so it gets plenty of
> sun.
>
> Getting plenty of sun isn't high up in the list of the holly's
> priorities. They tend to grow in light woodland.
>
> I'm not sure how happy they are in a raised bed on free draining soil.
> --
> Kay
I was out today planting some bulbs near the Blue Princess and the soil
has not dried out, even though we haven't had much rain over the last
few weeks. The membrane and bark chips seem pretty good at keeping the
moisture locked in. If anything, it's more likely the bed had too much
moisture this summer than not enough, and if the others who replied to
this post are correct, the hessian will not have helped.
As far as sunshine levels are concerned, from what I have read hollies
are OK with sunshine, but many varieties can tolerate shady conditions.
--
BlueFlower
| |
|
| On 20/10/07 19:06, in article BlueFlower.1900f06@gardenbanter.co.uk,
"BlueFlower" <BlueFlower.1900f06@gardenbanter.co.uk> wrote:
>
> K;755203 Wrote:
>
> I was out today planting some bulbs near the Blue Princess and the soil
> has not dried out, even though we haven't had much rain over the last
> few weeks. The membrane and bark chips seem pretty good at keeping the
> moisture locked in. If anything, it's more likely the bed had too much
> moisture this summer than not enough, and if the others who replied to
> this post are correct, the hessian will not have helped.
>
> As far as sunshine levels are concerned, from what I have read hollies
> are OK with sunshine, but many varieties can tolerate shady conditions.
>
So, your holly is planted in hessian sacking, under membrane and bark
chippings (in themselves deleterious to plants as they rot down) and you are
posting via Garden Banter asking advice from urg but saying "from what I've
read". Why do I get the whiff of a wind up here?
Let us know if they live or die, please and how you brought either about.
It would be most interesting to hear the final outcome.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
| |
| BlueFlower 2007-10-21, 9:25 am |
|
Sacha;755343 Wrote:
>
> So, your holly is planted in hessian sacking, under membrane and bark
> chippings (in themselves deleterious to plants as they rot down) and
> you are
> posting via Garden Banter asking advice from urg but saying "from what
> I've
> read". Why do I get the whiff of a wind up here?
> Let us know if they live or die, please and how you brought either
> about.
> It would be most interesting to hear the final outcome.
>
> --
> Sacha
> http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
> South Devon
> (remove weeds from address)
> 'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
> children.'
Sacha, I am sorry you have taken what I said like this. My post to urg
really was a genuine question from someone who is interested enough to
read up on a project so as to make a success of it but not enough
experience to get it all right.
--
BlueFlower
| |
|
| On 21/10/07 12:14, in article BlueFlower.1910c26@gardenbanter.co.uk,
"BlueFlower" <BlueFlower.1910c26@gardenbanter.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Sacha;755343 Wrote:
>
> Sacha, I am sorry you have taken what I said like this. My post to urg
> really was a genuine question from someone who is interested enough to
> read up on a project so as to make a success of it but not enough
> experience to get it all right.
>
And I was a bit tongue in cheek! Should have put a smiley in, obviously.
But there seem to be many variables being added to this poor plant's
troubles. I really do think it's struggling with very poor conditions. Its
roots can't spread out for nourishment; it's probably/possibly altogether
too wet at the root; it's got bark chippings rotting down on top of it,
which, not everyone knows, take nitrogen from the soil while they rot and
only put it back once they've finished doing so; it's got weed membrane too
which holds moisture in and sounds as if its position is too sunny. At
present, I think it sounds as if everything that could be wrong for this
plant is wrong. I can only repeat that my suggestion is that you lift it,
carefully cut away the hessian while not 'trimming' the roots, and re-plant
it. Don't replace the weed membrane; don't replace the bark chippings and
if possible, give it a bit of shade, though I don't think that's as crucial
as all the other variables. Hollies do drop some leaves from time to time
and some do get spindly but I think this is struggling because of where it's
been put and how.
But the thing that intrigues me is why you haven't asked the original
supplier what he or she thinks is wrong with it? Have you tried talking to
them? A reputable nursery or gc should either give you advice on what might
be wrong or replace the plant if it's a bad one.
And BTW, when you/if you, take up the plant, take a look for vine weevil
grubs, just to be on the safe side. (Don't look at this url just before or
after a meal!)
http://www.junglegardens.com/images/VineWeevilGrub.jpg
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'
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