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Ants in planted pots ok?
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| I have a large olive in a pot in my patio garden and it has grown very well,
however I notice in the last few days that ants are entering the pot from
the bottom and taking soil out (only small amounts). Are they living in it?
Will it hurt the plant?
I have tried moving the olive but they seem to follow it around!
Any advice?
Mike
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| Emrys Davies 2007-05-24, 9:25 am |
| "Mike" <mikeinlondon2003NO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fFa5i.1447$rW2.62@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> I have a large olive in a pot in my patio garden and it has grown very
well,
> however I notice in the last few days that ants are entering the pot
from
> the bottom and taking soil out (only small amounts). Are they living
in it?
> Will it hurt the plant?
>
> I have tried moving the olive but they seem to follow it around!
>
> Any advice?
>
> Mike
If the ants form a colony in the pot it certainly will be detrimental to
the plant so I would deter them by standing the pot in water for a short
while and this will cause the ants to disperse. Then place the pot in
an ant free spot and hopefully all will be well.
Regards,
Emrys Davies.
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| Nick Maclaren 2007-05-24, 9:25 am |
|
In article <46555d54_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
"Emrys Davies" <me@privacy.net> writes:
|>
|> If the ants form a colony in the pot it certainly will be detrimental to
|> the plant so I would deter them by standing the pot in water for a short
|> while and this will cause the ants to disperse. Then place the pot in
|> an ant free spot and hopefully all will be well.
That is not true. Some plants dislike ants in their roots; others are
unaffected, and may even appreciate it. Your solution is the correct
one for the former case, of course.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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| len garden 2007-05-24, 5:25 pm |
| g'day mike,
no is the answer they can cause all sort of problems and bring their
symbiotic bugs in as well.
the best way is to stand the pots in water up the the brim for around
24 hours to flood the nest, keep the water up to the brim but not over
for that period.
then have trays under the pot that will hold water and using those
specila pot stands or pieces of tile etc.,. to use to hold the pot
above that water level that will keep them out so long as none of the
foliage touches anything that the ants can use to climb back into the
pot.
len
On Thu, 24 May 2007 06:55:07 GMT, "Mike"
<mikeinlondon2003NO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,
len & bev
--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."
http://www.lensgarden.com.au/
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| On 24/5/07 19:31, in article 79mb53lq5iqvqnfjl3d2qn67l2498rskgm@4ax.com,
"len garden" <gardenlen2@bigpond.com> wrote:
> g'day mike,
>
> no is the answer they can cause all sort of problems and bring their
> symbiotic bugs in as well.
>
What symbiotic bugs would those be? You live in Australia, I think?
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
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| Alan Holmes 2007-05-24, 5:25 pm |
|
"len garden" <gardenlen2@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:79mb53lq5iqvqnfjl3d2qn67l2498rskgm@4ax.com...
> g'day mike,
>
> no is the answer they can cause all sort of problems and bring their
> symbiotic bugs in as well.
>
> the best way is to stand the pots in water up the the brim for around
> 24 hours to flood the nest, keep the water up to the brim but not over
> for that period.
>
> then have trays under the pot that will hold water and using those
> specila pot stands or pieces of tile etc.,. to use to hold the pot
> above that water level that will keep them out so long as none of the
> foliage touches anything that the ants can use to climb back into the
> pot.
I've never had any real problems with ants in pots or any other part of the
garden, they are a right pain when they get into the house though!
| |
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| On 24/5/07 22:41, in article tEn5i.4850$rQ4.908@newsfe1-win.ntli.net, "Alan
Holmes" <alan_holmes@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> "len garden" <gardenlen2@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:79mb53lq5iqvqnfjl3d2qn67l2498rskgm@4ax.com...
>
> I've never had any real problems with ants in pots or any other part of the
> garden, they are a right pain when they get into the house though!
>
>
In what way, Alan? I lived in an old house that had them all over the
place. The most fascinating thing I've ever watched was two 'tribes'
fighting. Each tribe was the size of a large soup plate and they were in
the middle of the dining room floor. But if I kept all food covered
securely or sealed, they did us no harm.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
| |
| Tim Tyler 2007-05-24, 5:25 pm |
| Sacha wrote:
> "len garden" <gardenlen2@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> What symbiotic bugs would those be? [...]
Sap suckers:
``Some ant species, such as the common Black garden ants
(Lasius niger) found in the UK, farm aphids. They have
aphid livestock which they transport between plants and
protect from enemies in return for a sugary substance
called honeydew, excreted from the aphids as they suck
on plant sap.''
http://www.buglife.org.uk/discoverb...lationships.htm
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2007-05-24, 8:25 pm |
|
In article <xIn5i.61987$Ch.60515@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> writes:
|> Sacha wrote:
|> > "len garden" <gardenlen2@bigpond.com> wrote:
|>
|> >> no is the answer they can cause all sort of problems and bring their
|> >> symbiotic bugs in as well.
|> >
|> > What symbiotic bugs would those be? [...]
|>
|> Sap suckers:
|>
|> ``Some ant species, such as the common Black garden ants
|> (Lasius niger) found in the UK, farm aphids. They have
|> aphid livestock which they transport between plants and
|> protect from enemies in return for a sugary substance
|> called honeydew, excreted from the aphids as they suck
|> on plant sap.''
All of the references I have seen, and my observation over many
years, indicate that is at best an urban myth. More bluntly, it
is just plain wrong. I don't know whether there are any 'farming'
ant species in the UK - most references are evasive on that - but
Lasius niger is not one of them.
It does do some desultory herding, but that is about all. I have
seen one decent reference that indicates that it may assist aphids,
but the research had a fair number of possible flaws, and it was
done so long ago that I couldn't check with the author.
It is vanishingly unlikely that Lasius niger will import aphids
onto plants in posts that they are nesting in.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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| Tim Tyler wrote:
> Sacha wrote:
>
>
> Sap suckers:
>
> ``Some ant species, such as the common Black garden ants
> (Lasius niger) found in the UK, farm aphids. They have
> aphid livestock which they transport between plants and
> protect from enemies in return for a sugary substance
> called honeydew, excreted from the aphids as they suck
> on plant sap.''
The aphids bite into the plant and lock on, there is then a continuous flow
of honey dew from their rear end, the ant take advantage of this free food
fountain! If the flow stops they tickle the ant's rear end to get it going
pk
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| Tim Tyler 2007-05-25, 3:25 am |
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
> Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> writes:
> |> Sap suckers:
> |>
> |> ``Some ant species, such as the common Black garden ants
> |> (Lasius niger) found in the UK, farm aphids. They have
> |> aphid livestock which they transport between plants and
> |> protect from enemies in return for a sugary substance
> |> called honeydew, excreted from the aphids as they suck
> |> on plant sap.''
>
> All of the references I have seen, and my observation over many
> years, indicate that is at best an urban myth. More bluntly, it
> is just plain wrong. I don't know whether there are any 'farming'
> ant species in the UK - most references are evasive on that - but
> Lasius niger is not one of them.
>
> It does do some desultory herding, but that is about all. I have
> seen one decent reference that indicates that it may assist aphids,
> but the research had a fair number of possible flaws, and it was
> done so long ago that I couldn't check with the author.
The best first hand evidence I have of UK black
ants doing more than exploit existing aphids is
the earth castles they sometimes build to protect
them from overheating:
http://sprouting.org/temp/ants/
....has photos.
I have now seen these things built six inches high.
When the growing point is too high off the ground,
for a tower to reach, the ants can still carry moist
earth up and stick it on around the target area.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15221511
....has Lasius niger excluding predators from aphid
colonies:
``Large predators were excluded by both ant species from the
aphid colonies, while they were abundant in ant-excluded colonies.''
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/35/4/703
....has Lasius niger sucking twice as much juice out of
beans when attended by ants.
....and this looks pretty conclusive to me:
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/EE..._00_ecology.pdf
``The presence of workers of the ant Lasius niger
had a strong positive effect on the fitness of
individuals of the aphid Metopeurum fuscoviride.
Ant-tended individuals lived longer, matured earlier,
had a higher rate of re-production, and a higher
expected number of offspring than aphids not tended
by ants. An aphid’s longevity was significantly
correlated with the daily mean number of workers
tending it.''
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2007-05-25, 9:25 am |
|
In article <aLw5i.36220$085.33772@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> writes:
|>
|> > |> Sap suckers:
|> > |>
|> > |> ``Some ant species, such as the common Black garden ants
|> > |> (Lasius niger) found in the UK, farm aphids. They have
|> > |> aphid livestock which they transport between plants and
|> > |> protect from enemies in return for a sugary substance
|> > |> called honeydew, excreted from the aphids as they suck
|> > |> on plant sap.''
|> >
|> > All of the references I have seen, and my observation over many
|> > years, indicate that is at best an urban myth. More bluntly, it
|> > is just plain wrong. I don't know whether there are any 'farming'
|> > ant species in the UK - most references are evasive on that - but
|> > Lasius niger is not one of them.
|> >
|> > It does do some desultory herding, but that is about all. I have
|> > seen one decent reference that indicates that it may assist aphids,
|> > but the research had a fair number of possible flaws, and it was
|> > done so long ago that I couldn't check with the author.
Thanks for the references. I have looked for evidence in many parts
of the country, and never seen it, so my estimate is that it can't be
a universal practice. Black bean aphids and L. niger are universal
in the UK :-)
But, yes, I agree that the last paper is strong evidence for herding.
What NONE of those are is evidence for farming, and one of the papers
you quote says that they saw none, either.
|> The best first hand evidence I have of UK black
|> ants doing more than exploit existing aphids is
|> the earth castles they sometimes build to protect
|> them from overheating:
They told you why they did it? Please tell more :-)
Seriously, I have occasionally seen this, but have never seen any
justification for the claimed reason they do it. That may be right,
but its rareness makes me think that it isn't.
|> http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15221511
|>
|> ...has Lasius niger excluding predators from aphid
|> colonies:
|>
|> ``Large predators were excluded by both ant species from the
|> aphid colonies, while they were abundant in ant-excluded colonies.''
Let's quote a bit more:
L. niger workers often carried living aphids away from the attended
colonies, whereas P. pungens removed no aphids and disregarded
parasitized aphids, thereby incidentally protecting the parasitized
aphids from predators.
Thus, P. pungens attending T. citricidus largely enhances parasitism
by L. japonicus and its larval survival, compared with when ants are
absent, whereas L. niger exerts no remarkable impact.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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| Tim Tyler 2007-05-25, 1:25 pm |
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
> Thanks for the references. I have looked for evidence in many parts
> of the country, and never seen it, so my estimate is that it can't be
> a universal practice. Black bean aphids and L. niger are universal
> in the UK :-)
>
> But, yes, I agree that the last paper is strong evidence for herding.
> What NONE of those are is evidence for farming, and one of the papers
> you quote says that they saw none, either.
Ants elimitate aphid predators and reduce aphid infections.
``In turn, ants often act as guards and decrease the impact
of predators and parasitoids on the fitness of their hosts
(El-Ziady and Kennedy 1956, Banks 1962, Way 1963, Banks
and Macaulay 1967, Addicott 1979, Pierce and Mead 1981,
Buckley 1987a, b, Vo¨ lkl 1992).''
- http://www.brown.edu/Departments/EE..._00_ecology.pdf
Their effect on aphid fitness is dramatic and positive:
``Ant-tended individuals of M. fuscoviride lived on average 78%
longer, needed 10% less time to mature, gave birth
to offspring at a rate that was 88% higher, and had
an expected number of offspring that was more than five
times higher than that of individuals not tended by ants.''
- http://www.brown.edu/Departments/EE..._00_ecology.pdf
....and they cause the aphids to suck more sap out of plants:
``It must be concluded that the ant-attended aphids produced
the 'extra' radioactivity in the honeydew by increasing the
uptake of radioactive sap from the plants. It follows,
therefore, as Herzig supposed, that the ants directly
stimulated both the excretion and feeding rates of the aphids.''
- http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/35/4/703.pdf
Ants consume aphid milk, and consume aphid flesh.
They tend many species of subterranean aphids in their nests:
``Subterranean aphids seem more restricted in the species of their
mutualist, for example the aphid Aphis maidiradicis was thought
to have an intimate association with Lasius niger americana
(Forbes 1894). However A. maidiridicis has since been seen
to associate with at least five other ant species from two
genera (Way 1963) and at least 17 species of aphid have been
found in the nests of L. niger (Schouteden 1902).''
- http://www.msu.edu/~shingle9/NewFil...nteractions.pdf
What other properties do you think would be needed for these
ants to qualify as 'farmers' rather than 'herders'?
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
| |
| Peter Robinson 2007-05-25, 5:25 pm |
| Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> wrote:
> Nick Maclaren wrote:
>
[color=darkred]
> http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15221511
>
> ...has Lasius niger excluding predators from aphid
> colonies:
>
> ``Large predators were excluded by both ant species from the
> aphid colonies, while they were abundant in ant-excluded colonies.''
and better still,
``L. niger workers often carried living aphids away from the attended
colonies, whereas P pungens removed no aphids...''
I didn't know they did that, but surely that counts as farming?
Peter
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| Nick Maclaren 2007-05-25, 5:25 pm |
|
In article <1hyopjf.1hdx0ei4sjpldN%pmrobinson@gmx.net>,
pmrobinson@gmx.net (Peter Robinson) writes:
|> Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> wrote:
|>
|> ``L. niger workers often carried living aphids away from the attended
|> colonies, whereas P pungens removed no aphids...''
|>
|> I didn't know they did that, but surely that counts as farming?
Or predation?
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2007-05-25, 5:25 pm |
|
In article <8DD5i.63936$Ch.43450@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> writes:
|>
|> [ various references snipped. ]
|>
|> Ants consume aphid milk, and consume aphid flesh.
That is undeniable.
|> They tend many species of subterranean aphids in their nests:
|>
|> ``Subterranean aphids seem more restricted in the species of their
|> mutualist, for example the aphid Aphis maidiradicis was thought
|> to have an intimate association with Lasius niger americana
|> (Forbes 1894). However A. maidiridicis has since been seen
|> to associate with at least five other ant species from two
|> genera (Way 1963) and at least 17 species of aphid have been
|> found in the nests of L. niger (Schouteden 1902).''
|>
|> - http://www.msu.edu/~shingle9/NewFil...nteractions.pdf
Firstly, we are talking about the UK, and it is likely that L. niger
varies in behaviour with location. But, secondly and more importantly,
you are extrapolating wildly from evidence (even proof) of association
to the claim you make above. "Association" means just that; further
work is always needed to work out what FORM of association it is.
The chalk blue butterfly is associated with ants, but its association
is entirely different.
|> What other properties do you think would be needed for these
|> ants to qualify as 'farmers' rather than 'herders'?
In this context, "herding" means providing some benefits to existing
aphid colonies in return for either honeydew or culling; "farming"
involves moving them into a separate environment, providing them with
food and so on. I have seen no evidence that supports even the claims
that L. niger moves aphids to new plants, in order to start new
colonies. Oh, yes, it is CLAIMED.
As far as the references go, there are a lot of potential loopholes
in their methodology, and that might account for why there is such a
discrepancy between their measurements of ant benefits to the aphids
and the crop benefits when ants are excluded. Or it might be even
more complex than that ....
I must print out your earliest reference and read it carefully. It
isn't the clearest paper in the world, and I can't see how they get
from their measurements to their conclusions.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Tim Tyler 2007-05-25, 5:25 pm |
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
> Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> writes:
> |> What other properties do you think would be needed for these
> |> ants to qualify as 'farmers' rather than 'herders'?
>
> In this context, "herding" means providing some benefits to existing
> aphid colonies in return for either honeydew or culling; "farming"
> involves moving them into a separate environment, providing them with
> food and so on. I have seen no evidence that supports even the claims
> that L. niger moves aphids to new plants, in order to start new
> colonies. Oh, yes, it is CLAIMED.
According to reports, such evidence is in:
``Ant-mediated dispersal of the black willow aphid Pterocomma
salicis L.; does the ant Lasius niger L. judge aphid-host quality?''
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conte...000002/art00014
One such report:
``The ability of L. niger to assess the.
‘health’ of tended aphid colonies was shown by
Collins and Leather (2002) who reported that
ants could remove healthy aphids to start new
colonies if the if the original aphid colony
became overcrowded.''
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
| |
| Nick Maclaren 2007-05-25, 8:25 pm |
|
In article <7UI5i.64350$Ch.31862@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> writes:
|>
|> One such report:
|>
|> ``The ability of L. niger to assess the.
|> ‘health’ of tended aphid colonies was shown by
|> Collins and Leather (2002) who reported that
|> ants could remove healthy aphids to start new
|> colonies if the if the original aphid colony
|> became overcrowded.''
Yes, I know :-(
But I have never seen one of those that was worth a damn, because
they all proved their results by assuming it. There may be an
exception, somewhere, of course.
The papers you have referenced (and others) definitely indicate that
L. niger does assist aphids under at least SOME circumstances, but
my observations indicate that it is a rarer and less important
situation than is often claimed. And the few references I have seen
to whether it is significant in practice have all come down on the
side of "no, it isn't".
That conflict makes me certain that things aren't as simple as they
are made out, which in turn implies that either or both of your and
my beliefs are likely to be effectively wrong.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
| |
| Peter Robinson 2007-05-27, 5:25 pm |
| Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <1hyopjf.1hdx0ei4sjpldN%pmrobinson@gmx.net>,
> pmrobinson@gmx.net (Peter Robinson) writes:
>
> |> Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> wrote:
> |>
> |> ``L. niger workers often carried living aphids away from the attended
> |> colonies, whereas P pungens removed no aphids...''
> |>
> |> I didn't know they did that, but surely that counts as farming?
>
> Or predation?
Yes, possibly.
Or even to prevent the spread of the parasite. I agree that none of the
sources cited are conclusive.
Peter
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