UK gardening - OT calling any French residents

Author

OT calling any French residents

Broadback

2008-03-25, 1:25 pm

Sorry about the OT posting, but I know a few French residents post here
and I would like a little information.
The EU have brought in another stupid regulation that buses traveling
over 30 miles must stop at 30 miles, remove all passengers then can
reload and resume their journey. One very negative effect of this is
that in Wales hitherto community buses that travel over 30 miles have
shortened their journeys by using main roads and bypasses, as a result a
number of small communities no longer have a bus service.
Does this rule applied in France?

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-25, 1:25 pm

In article <64srpnF2d1e6cU1@mid.individual.net>,
Broadback <wen@towill.plus.com> writes:
|>
|> The EU have brought in another stupid regulation that buses traveling
|> over 30 miles must stop at 30 miles, remove all passengers then can
|> reload and resume their journey. One very negative effect of this is
|> that in Wales hitherto community buses that travel over 30 miles have
|> shortened their journeys by using main roads and bypasses, as a result a
|> number of small communities no longer have a bus service.

I doubt it very much.

Have you read the regulation? And then compared it with what Whitehall
has perpetrated? Until you have, why do you think that the stupidity
lies in Brussels?

I have done just that on several topics, and the EU regulation was
fairly sane, and merely said "countries shall make regulations to
ensure that ..." The lunatic bureaucracy was invented in Whitehall,
which is adept at blaming others for its crimes.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Judith in France

2008-03-25, 5:25 pm

On Mar 25, 5:41 pm, Broadback <w...@towill.plus.com> wrote:
> Sorry about the OT posting, but I know a few French residents post here
> and I would like a little information.
> The EU have brought in another stupid regulation that buses traveling
> over 30 miles must stop at 30 miles, remove all passengers then can
> reload and resume their journey. One very negative effect of this is
> that in Wales hitherto community buses that travel over 30 miles have
> shortened their journeys by using main roads and bypasses, as a result a
> number of small communities no longer have a bus service.
> Does this rule applied in France?

I don't know, would you mind if I reposted your question on another
group?

Judith

David in Normandy

2008-03-25, 5:25 pm

Broadback says...
> Sorry about the OT posting, but I know a few French residents post here
> and I would like a little information.
> The EU have brought in another stupid regulation that buses traveling
> over 30 miles must stop at 30 miles, remove all passengers then can
> reload and resume their journey. One very negative effect of this is
> that in Wales hitherto community buses that travel over 30 miles have
> shortened their journeys by using main roads and bypasses, as a result a
> number of small communities no longer have a bus service.
> Does this rule applied in France?
>

First I've heard about it. Sounds more like a posting for
1st of April to me :-)
--
David in Normandy. DavidinNormandy@yahoo.fr
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

2008-03-25, 5:25 pm

"David in Normandy" <DavidinNormandy@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:MPG.22535fe4ff479b3c989855@news.wanadoo.fr...
> Broadback says...
>
> First I've heard about it. Sounds more like a posting for
> 1st of April to me :-)

A quick bit of googling suggests that since 1st Jan buses operating on
routes in excess of 30 miles must be fitted with a tachograph and ensure
that drivers take adequate breaks. No problem there, it's only what coach
operators already have to observe; but skinflint bus companies don't want
to play ball, so they terminate services or force passengers to get off as
described

Complain to the bus company.

And complain to the Sun, Telegraph, Mail etc. for not explaining the facts
behind the case.

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-25, 5:25 pm

In article <64t3cdF2cp2rbU1@mid.individual.net>,
"OG" <owen@gwynnefamily.org.uk> writes:
|>
|> A quick bit of googling suggests that since 1st Jan buses operating on
|> routes in excess of 30 miles must be fitted with a tachograph and ensure
|> that drivers take adequate breaks. No problem there, it's only what coach
|> operators already have to observe; but skinflint bus companies don't want
|> to play ball, so they terminate services or force passengers to get off as
|> described
|>
|> Complain to the bus company.
|>
|> And complain to the Sun, Telegraph, Mail etc. for not explaining the facts
|> behind the case.

So I was maligning Whitehall - they were merely being naive to the point
of negligence, by writing regulations that invite such abuse!

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Emery Davis

2008-03-25, 5:25 pm

Broadback wrote:
> Sorry about the OT posting, but I know a few French residents post here
> and I would like a little information.
> The EU have brought in another stupid regulation that buses traveling
> over 30 miles must stop at 30 miles, remove all passengers then can
> reload and resume their journey. One very negative effect of this is
> that in Wales hitherto community buses that travel over 30 miles have
> shortened their journeys by using main roads and bypasses, as a result a
> number of small communities no longer have a bus service.
> Does this rule applied in France?

No public buses around here!

But the school bus trips certainly don't follow this rule. AFAIK the
only rule is
"Tous les deux heures la pause d'impose." Drivers are required to take
a 15 minute
break for every 2 hours of driving. Not a bad idea IMHO!

-E

Judith in France

2008-03-25, 5:25 pm

On Mar 25, 8:32 pm, Emery Davis <laera...@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
> Broadback wrote:
>
> No public buses around here!
>
> But the school bus trips certainly don't follow this rule. AFAIK the
> only rule is
> "Tous les deux heures la pause d'impose." Drivers are required to take
> a 15 minute
> break for every 2 hours of driving. Not a bad idea IMHO!
>
> -E

Hi Emery, how are you? It's a mild night in the Auvergne, tomorrow I
will sow my Wisteria seeds, I'm wondering whether I should soak them
first as they are quite large and very hard!!!!

Judith

Sacha

2008-03-25, 8:25 pm

On 25/3/08 22:17, in article
739232e3-75e7-4272-b5c6-af566163ddfd@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Judith
in France" <judith.lea99@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 25, 8:32 pm, Emery Davis <laera...@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
>
> Hi Emery, how are you? It's a mild night in the Auvergne, tomorrow I
> will sow my Wisteria seeds, I'm wondering whether I should soak them
> first as they are quite large and very hard!!!!
>
> Judith

Have to ask why you're sowing seeds, Judith? AIUI, Wisteria can take around
18 years to flower if grown this way and can be extremely variable as to
quality. They can take about 8 years to flower if grown from cuttings. The
grafted ones are much more reliable because you can and should, see them in
flower before buying and of course, they're ready to flower and grow
immediately.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Emery Davis

2008-03-25, 8:25 pm

Judith in France wrote:
> On Mar 25, 8:32 pm, Emery Davis <laera...@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
>
> Hi Emery, how are you? It's a mild night in the Auvergne, tomorrow I
> will sow my Wisteria seeds, I'm wondering whether I should soak them
> first as they are quite large and very hard!!!!
>
> Judith

Hi Judith,

Doing just fine, thanks, and you? We survived (or so it seems) the worst of
the weather. I had just bunged 30 trees into the ground, none got blown
over!

Now enjoying one of the finer things in Normandy, a glass of 30 year
Calvados
before bed...

I'm with Sacha on the Wisteria seeds. Plus, not a very expensive plant
grafted.
I have 3 that I hack at a few times a year. I really like the flowers,
but lots of
time spent on the ladder. I actually fell off while cutting one back a
few years ago,
but luckily landed well and suffered nothing worse than some temporary
spine
compression. Now I'm a little more careful! ;)

cheers,

-E

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

In article <MPG.22535fe4ff479b3c989855@news.wanadoo.fr>,
DavidinNormandy@yahoo.fr says...
> Broadback says...
>
> First I've heard about it. Sounds more like a posting for
> 1st of April to me :-)
>
No its true and causing problems in Cornwall too, people are having to
buy three separate tickets for one jurney and get off the bus, they then
get straight back on with the same driver and continue - daft
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Martin Brown

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

In message <MPG.22541c5e281d5acc9897eb@News.Individual.NET>, Charlie
Pridham <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> writes
>In article <MPG.22535fe4ff479b3c989855@news.wanadoo.fr>,
>DavidinNormandy@yahoo.fr says...

Sounds like the sort of thing that a letter to your local MP with copy
to the local press and TV station will work wonders on.

Almost certainly the fault lies with Whitehall producing a gold plated
completely insane version of whatever Brussels actually specified.
[color=darkred]

Even if it did do you really think they would follow it or enforce it?
[color=darkred]
>No its true and causing problems in Cornwall too, people are having to
>buy three separate tickets for one jurney and get off the bus, they then
>get straight back on with the same driver and continue - daft

Time to write to your MP. That is what they are there for.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

In article <MPG.22541c5e281d5acc9897eb@News.Individual.NET>,
Charlie Pridham <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> writes:
|> In article <MPG.22535fe4ff479b3c989855@news.wanadoo.fr>,
|> DavidinNormandy@yahoo.fr says...
|> > Broadback says...
|> > > Sorry about the OT posting, but I know a few French residents post here
|> > > and I would like a little information.
|> > > The EU have brought in another stupid regulation that buses traveling
|> > > over 30 miles must stop at 30 miles, remove all passengers then can
|> > > reload and resume their journey. One very negative effect of this is
|> > > that in Wales hitherto community buses that travel over 30 miles have
|> > > shortened their journeys by using main roads and bypasses, as a result a
|> > > number of small communities no longer have a bus service.
|> > > Does this rule applied in France?
|> >
|> > First I've heard about it. Sounds more like a posting for
|> > 1st of April to me :-)
|> >
|> No its true and causing problems in Cornwall too, people are having to
|> buy three separate tickets for one jurney and get off the bus, they then
|> get straight back on with the same driver and continue - daft

But damn-all to do with the EU ....

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sacha

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On 25/3/08 21:55, in article 64tejnF2cued1U1@mid.individual.net, "Emery
Davis" <laeraton@essera.oc.ku> wrote:

<snip>
>
> I'm with Sacha on the Wisteria seeds. Plus, not a very expensive plant
> grafted.
> I have 3 that I hack at a few times a year. I really like the flowers,
> but lots of
> time spent on the ladder. I actually fell off while cutting one back a
> few years ago,
> but luckily landed well and suffered nothing worse than some temporary
> spine
> compression. Now I'm a little more careful! ;)
>
> cheers,
>
> -E

You could try growing one as a standard, Emery. They look really pretty
swooping down onto the lawn as they mature. Some people train them over a
stake with three or four 'arms' to it, others just stake them and leave them
to do their own thing.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

In article <fsd3re$7s1$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk
says...
>
> In article <MPG.22541c5e281d5acc9897eb@News.Individual.NET>,
> Charlie Pridham <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> writes:
> |> In article <MPG.22535fe4ff479b3c989855@news.wanadoo.fr>,
> |> DavidinNormandy@yahoo.fr says...
> |> > Broadback says...
> |> > > Sorry about the OT posting, but I know a few French residents post here
> |> > > and I would like a little information.
> |> > > The EU have brought in another stupid regulation that buses traveling
> |> > > over 30 miles must stop at 30 miles, remove all passengers then can
> |> > > reload and resume their journey. One very negative effect of this is
> |> > > that in Wales hitherto community buses that travel over 30 miles have
> |> > > shortened their journeys by using main roads and bypasses, as a result a
> |> > > number of small communities no longer have a bus service.
> |> > > Does this rule applied in France?
> |> >
> |> > First I've heard about it. Sounds more like a posting for
> |> > 1st of April to me :-)
> |> >
> |> No its true and causing problems in Cornwall too, people are having to
> |> buy three separate tickets for one jurney and get off the bus, they then
> |> get straight back on with the same driver and continue - daft
>
> But damn-all to do with the EU ....
>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.
>
Well perhaps not, though I do think they could be a lot clearer what they
intend measures to do and be much clearer about what is not meant or
intended. But in this case I smell a bus company rat, they seem to have
used a minor regulation to get three fares instead on one out of people!
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Judith in France

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On Mar 25, 10:45 pm, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/3/08 22:17, in article
> 739232e3-75e7-4272-b5c6-af566163d...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Judith
>
>
>
> in France" <judith.le...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Have to ask why you're sowing seeds, Judith? AIUI, Wisteria can take around
> 18 years to flower if grown this way and can be extremely variable as to
> quality. They can take about 8 years to flower if grown from cuttings. The
> grafted ones are much more reliable because you can and should, see them in
> flower before buying and of course, they're ready to flower and grow
> immediately.
> --
> Sachahttp://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
> South Devon
> 'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
> children.'

Gulp!!! Guess who will be going to visit the nearest nursery soon.
Many thanks Sacha.

Judith

Judith in France

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On Mar 25, 9:55 pm, Emery Davis <laera...@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
> Judith in France wrote:
>
> Hi Judith,
>
> Doing just fine, thanks, and you? We survived (or so it seems) the worst of
> the weather. I had just bunged 30 trees into the ground, none got blown
> over!

What type of trees?
>
> Now enjoying one of the finer things in Normandy, a glass of 30 year
> Calvados
> before bed...

I know another man who likes Calvados!
>
> I'm with Sacha on the Wisteria seeds. Plus, not a very expensive plant
> grafted.
> I have 3 that I hack at a few times a year. I really like the flowers,
> but lots of
> time spent on the ladder. I actually fell off while cutting one back a
> few years ago,
> but luckily landed well and suffered nothing worse than some temporary
> spine
> compression. Now I'm a little more careful! ;)

A word of advice Emery, no drinking Calvados before hacking the
Wisteria!! Keep well.

Judith
>
> cheers,
>
> -E

Judith in France

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On Mar 26, 9:17 am, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/3/08 21:55, in article 64tejnF2cued...@mid.individual.net, "Emery
>
> Davis" <laera...@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You could try growing one as a standard, Emery. They look really pretty
> swooping down onto the lawn as they mature. Some people train them over a
> stake with three or four 'arms' to it, others just stake them and leave them
> to do their own thing.
> --
> Sachahttp://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
> South Devon
> 'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
> children.'

I like the standard idea Sacha and it's one I shall copy.

Judith

Sacha

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On 26/3/08 10:54, in article
e236a7c8-49e4-48e4-8555-4b1281bc9e8b@e67g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, "Judith
in France" <judith.lea99@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 26, 9:17 am, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I like the standard idea Sacha and it's one I shall copy.
>
> Judith

It's really effective and unusual, so it's a bit of an eye catcher. They
all look pretty grown this way but because they're drooping towards the
ground, don't grow a white one anywhere the mud will splash up onto it!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

In article <da993a0a-a8e8-4364-a8b4-
5cbc4ad2f7f1@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, judith.lea99@googlemail.com
says...
> On Mar 25, 10:45 pm, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Gulp!!! Guess who will be going to visit the nearest nursery soon.
> Many thanks Sacha.
>
Although I agree with Sach on seedlings I find cuttings flower from day
one, indeed I have just been removing flowers from this years rooted
cuttings. If you dont you end up with flowers 3 x the size of the plant
dragging on the ground (and its a waste of energy) but nearly all
wisteria is grafted and this way you do get a much bigger plant as the
cuttings take longer to get going, but size for size I have never seen a
difference.
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Emery Davis

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

Sacha wrote:
> On 25/3/08 21:55, in article 64tejnF2cued1U1@mid.individual.net, "Emery
> Davis" <laeraton@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> You could try growing one as a standard, Emery. They look really pretty
> swooping down onto the lawn as they mature. Some people train them over a
> stake with three or four 'arms' to it, others just stake them and leave them
> to do their own thing.

Yes, I've always admired the standards, Sacha. Perhaps one day I'll put
one in.
But I'll stick with the ones on the walls, anyway. I have a terrible
time taking out
an established plant, and the wisterias put on a beautiful display!

-E

Emery Davis

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

Judith in France wrote:
> On Mar 25, 9:55 pm, Emery Davis <laera...@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
>
> What type of trees?

Well, I'll bet you could guess some of them!

22 maples (mostly species), 3 beeches, 2 dogwoods, a Pocket Handkerchief
tree,
a weeping crab apple, a Tupelo, a willow, a rowan and a szechuan poplar.

>
> I know another man who likes Calvados!
>
> A word of advice Emery, no drinking Calvados before hacking the
> Wisteria!! Keep well.

No, I am not one of those who takes a calvados with the morning coffee!
Strictly after dinner for me, and even then not that frequently.

cheers,

-E

Sacha

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On 26/3/08 10:52, in article 64us4eF2domh4U1@mid.individual.net, "Emery
Davis" <laeraton@essera.oc.ku> wrote:

> Sacha wrote:
>
> Yes, I've always admired the standards, Sacha. Perhaps one day I'll put
> one in.
> But I'll stick with the ones on the walls, anyway. I have a terrible
> time taking out
> an established plant, and the wisterias put on a beautiful display!
>
> -E

Oh yes, I wasn't suggesting getting rid of the one you've got. They are a
bit of a pain if you let them get into guttering, tiles etc. but a good one
is a thing of great beauty. The Garden House has one growing along the hand
rails of a bridge and it looks really wonderful.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On 26/3/08 11:51, in article MPG.2254492e931d8dc69897ee@News.Individual.NET,
"Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <da993a0a-a8e8-4364-a8b4-
> 5cbc4ad2f7f1@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, judith.lea99@googlemail.com
> says...
> Although I agree with Sach on seedlings I find cuttings flower from day
> one, indeed I have just been removing flowers from this years rooted
> cuttings. If you dont you end up with flowers 3 x the size of the plant
> dragging on the ground (and its a waste of energy) but nearly all
> wisteria is grafted and this way you do get a much bigger plant as the
> cuttings take longer to get going, but size for size I have never seen a
> difference.

You and your Green Thumb! ;-) Most people seem to complain their wisteria
hasn't flowered - ever. It turns out to be a non-grafted one.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

In article <C40FF245.68B32%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...[color=darkred]
> On 26/3/08 11:51, in article MPG.2254492e931d8dc69897ee@News.Individual.NET,
> "Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:
>
That is indeed a problem, people chasing a bargin! Much the same with
Clematis armandii, named ones are noticably dearer than ordinary clematis
so when people see a cheap one they think its abargin but no its a
seedling, many of which are indiffent flowerers. I may have green thumbs
but that clematis I can not do and we have a lovely one in the garden.
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Cat(h)

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On Mar 26, 10:38=A0am, Charlie Pridham <char...@roselandhouse.co.uk>
wrote:
> In article <fsd3re$7s...@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>, n...@cus.cam.ac.uk
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
t here[color=darkred]
ling[color=darkred]
an[color=darkred]
is[color=darkred]
have[color=darkred]
esult a[color=darkred]
o[color=darkred]
hen[color=darkred]
>
>
>
> Well perhaps not, though I do think they could be a lot clearer what they
> intend measures to do and be much clearer about what is not meant or
> intended. But in this case I smell a bus company rat, they seem to have
> used a minor regulation to get three fares instead on one out of people!

Most of all, they have found a way around having to incur the expense
of providing the legally required safety measures (i.e. fitting the
tachograph and paying their drivers while on break)... These measures
were aimed at improving safety for the public using the bus services.
Finding a loophole to avoid having to improve safety for their
customers reflects far worse on the bus companies (British or
otherwise) than it does on the law makers, be they the Brussels
originators, or the national translators of the EU law into national
legal measures.

Cat(h)

Sacha

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On 26/3/08 13:27, in article MPG.22545f8798a1f1e69897ef@News.Individual.NET,
"Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>

> That is indeed a problem, people chasing a bargin! Much the same with
> Clematis armandii, named ones are noticably dearer than ordinary clematis
> so when people see a cheap one they think its abargin but no its a
> seedling, many of which are indiffent flowerers. I may have green thumbs
> but that clematis I can not do and we have a lovely one in the garden.

Ray is delighted that he's had some real success with C. rehederiana this
year. He forgot to do any last year and it seems to be hard to track down
in any numbers. Do you find this tricky to propagate Charlie, because it
seems to have a reputation for it? I really love it, especially as it's so
different and flowers late with a sweet and gentle scent.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha

2008-03-26, 9:25 am

On 26/3/08 13:48, in article
132a597a-57f0-40e9-b264-31a4d78ed007@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com, "Cat(h)"
<cathy_ie@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Mar 26, 10:38_am, Charlie Pridham <char...@roselandhouse.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> Most of all, they have found a way around having to incur the expense
> of providing the legally required safety measures (i.e. fitting the
> tachograph and paying their drivers while on break)... These measures
> were aimed at improving safety for the public using the bus services.
> Finding a loophole to avoid having to improve safety for their
> customers reflects far worse on the bus companies (British or
> otherwise) than it does on the law makers, be they the Brussels
> originators, or the national translators of the EU law into national
> legal measures.
>
> Cat(h)
>

An extract from today's Western Morning News:
"Bus passengers on some rural routes are being forced off their vehicles
part way through their journey because of EU rules.

Legislation forbids bus drivers from travelling for more than 30 miles in
one go.

Passengers on some routes must get on and off their bus, sometimes twice, to
prevent bus operators from prosecution.

Operators in Cornwall have condemned the new rule brought in last April as
"idiotic" and have called for Whitehall to step in.

Western Greyhound, based in Newquay, has been forced to split its Newquay to
Plymouth service into three sections.

Although one driver is used throughout the trip, passengers have to buy
three tickets and break their journey twice."
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Judith in France

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

On Mar 26, 11:49 am, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/3/08 10:54, in article
> e236a7c8-49e4-48e4-8555-4b1281bc9...@e67g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, "Judith
>
>
>
> in France" <judith.le...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's really effective and unusual, so it's a bit of an eye catcher. They
> all look pretty grown this way but because they're drooping towards the
> ground, don't grow a white one anywhere the mud will splash up onto it!
> --
> Sachahttp://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
> South Devon
> 'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
> children.'

Any tips Sacha on how high/size of suppost etc?

Judith

Judith in France

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

On Mar 26, 11:06 am, Emery Davis <laera...@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
> Judith in France wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Well, I'll bet you could guess some of them!

>
> 22 maples (mostly species), 3 beeches, 2 dogwoods, a Pocket Handkerchief
> tree,
> a weeping crab apple, a Tupelo, a willow, a rowan and a szechuan poplar.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No, I am not one of those who takes a calvados with the morning coffee!
> Strictly after dinner for me, and even then not that frequently.
>
> cheers,
>
> -E

Like the trees Emery, have you got any pics of your garden?

I won't be seeing you in the Tabac/Bar then before 8a.m.with a little
poodle under one arm, a paper under the other and a glass of
Calvados? :-)

Judith

Judith in France

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

On Mar 26, 12:29 pm, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/3/08 11:51, in article MPG.2254492e931d8dc6989...@News.Individual.NET,
>
>
>
> "Charlie Pridham" <char...@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You and your Green Thumb! ;-) Most people seem to complain their wisteria
> hasn't flowered - ever. It turns out to be a non-grafted one.
>
> --
> Sachahttp://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
> South Devon
> 'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
> children.'

Charlie's green thumb is legendary!!!! Mine is improving bit by bit
each year but I am not in the class or anywhere near it of the
majority of posters here.

Judith

Sacha

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

On 26/3/08 15:25, in article
605942b9-b42d-4823-82c1-e255b77b61a0@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Judith
in France" <judith.lea99@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 26, 11:49 am, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Any tips Sacha on how high/size of suppost etc?
>
> Judith

Up to the individual but I should think ours is about 5'.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

On 26/3/08 15:29, in article
e9a015f0-281e-498b-9200-2be9b22f55e6@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Judith
in France" <judith.lea99@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 26, 12:29 pm, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>[color=darkred]
>
> Charlie's green thumb is legendary!!!! Mine is improving bit by bit
> each year but I am not in the class or anywhere near it of the
> majority of posters here.
>
> Judith

I sometimes think mine is a deep Black and then I have a success and cheer
up again!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

On 26/3/08 16:28, in article fsdtj7$g82$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk, "Nick
Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> In article <C41025AB.68B9C%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
> Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes:
> |> On 26/3/08 15:25, in article
> |> 605942b9-b42d-4823-82c1-e255b77b61a0@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Judith
> |> in France" <judith.lea99@googlemail.com> wrote:
> |>
> |> > Any tips Sacha on how high/size of suppost etc?
> |>
> |> Up to the individual but I should think ours is about 5'.
>
> Below about 3' would look a bit silly, unless it was also dwarfed
> (as in bonsai). My guess is that a semi-dwarfed one of 2' would
> look OK. Above about 6' is unwieldy.
>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.
Well, of course, the higher the pole, the longer it will take for the
Wisteria to do its 'sweeping to the ground' thing! And of course, wind
knocking it over if it's too high has to be taken in account. Personally,
I'd say 5'. Much lower than that and you might as well let it just scramble
through a bed on its own.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

In article <C4102C65.68C0F%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes:
|>
|> Well, of course, the higher the pole, the longer it will take for the
|> Wisteria to do its 'sweeping to the ground' thing! And of course, wind
|> knocking it over if it's too high has to be taken in account. Personally,
|> I'd say 5'. Much lower than that and you might as well let it just scramble
|> through a bed on its own.

I have seen pictures of ones about 3' high on a patio, and they looked
fine. But they were very carefully pruned to flower from near the top.
But I am not disagreeing that 5' is a very good height for one!

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-26, 1:25 pm

In article <C4100C51.68B45%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...
> On 26/3/08 13:27, in article MPG.22545f8798a1f1e69897ef@News.Individual.NET,
> "Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
> Ray is delighted that he's had some real success with C. rehederiana this
> year. He forgot to do any last year and it seems to be hard to track down
> in any numbers. Do you find this tricky to propagate Charlie, because it
> seems to have a reputation for it? I really love it, especially as it's so
> different and flowers late with a sweet and gentle scent.
>
Its easy enough from seed but only if you remember to collect the ripe
seed in the autumn! both the seed and cuttings are prone to botrytis
during winter so I try and keep mine on the dry side of the greenhouse
even so I lose about 50% and of course its not 100% hardy so can be laid
low by a sharp frost. All in all I could multiply the number I produce by
100 and still not have enough
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-26, 5:25 pm

In article <RBD$6WGuqp6HFwki@meden.invalid>,
Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> writes:
|>
|> Has anyone an explanation as to how the bus company justifies going from
|> a restriction on drivers travelling more than 30 miles without a break
|> to requiring passengers to disembark and to purchase multiple tickets?

It's almost certainly the installation of the tachygraph that they
don't want to do.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sacha

2008-03-26, 5:25 pm

On 26/3/08 18:12, in article MPG.2254a283647377889897f0@News.Individual.NET,
"Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <C4100C51.68B45%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
> sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...
> Its easy enough from seed but only if you remember to collect the ripe
> seed in the autumn! both the seed and cuttings are prone to botrytis
> during winter so I try and keep mine on the dry side of the greenhouse
> even so I lose about 50% and of course its not 100% hardy so can be laid
> low by a sharp frost. All in all I could multiply the number I produce by
> 100 and still not have enough

Do people ask for it much with you? I've recommended it to several people
and find none of heard of it.
Yes, Ray grew ours from seed from the one on the front of our house and is
now going to try C. nepalensis at the appropriate time, too.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha

2008-03-26, 5:25 pm

On 26/3/08 19:03, in article fse6m5$b3q$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk, "Nick
Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> In article <RBD$6WGuqp6HFwki@meden.invalid>,
> Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> writes:
> |>
> |> Has anyone an explanation as to how the bus company justifies going from
> |> a restriction on drivers travelling more than 30 miles without a break
> |> to requiring passengers to disembark and to purchase multiple tickets?
>
> It's almost certainly the installation of the tachygraph that they
> don't want to do.
>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

Also from the WMN:

"British law limits drivers to 60 hours a week at the wheel, but this is
superseded by the new EU regulations if a driver covers more than 50km at
any point in a single trip.

Those drivers are required to have a continuous 45 hour rest period -
effectively two days - within the same week.

This poses a problem for small rural firms, who do not have the staff to
cover the two-day break required, especially if they operate a Sunday
service.

Larger bus operators said they have worked around the new legislation and
that services have not been disrupted.

Operators First Devon and Cornwall operate a number of routes over 30 miles
and carry 17 million passengers around the two counties every year.

Company chiefs said they had decided it was more important to continue to
serve the customers on these routes with no disruptions.

A spokesman said: "The implementation of the 30-mile rule means there is the
need for additional drivers and the purchase of tachographs for the
vehicles. First has decided to absorb this cost, in the interest of our
customers and services. It is not necessary for customers to change, or get
on and off buses as we have altered the way in which these services are
operated (which has ultimately increased costs) in order to ensure they
continue to be operated legally." "
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Martin

2008-03-26, 5:25 pm

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:49:18 +0000, Stewart Robert Hinsley
<{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <C4100D00.68B46%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>, Sacha
><sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes
>
>Has anyone an explanation as to how the bus company justifies going from
>a restriction on drivers travelling more than 30 miles without a break
>to requiring passengers to disembark and to purchase multiple tickets?

Any idea which EU directive is being blamed?
There's been something similar about an EU directive preventing a day trip boat
running from Scarborough to Whitby. If you read the article carefully it is
clear that Maritime and Coastguard Agency hasn't implemented the
directive/legislation correctly.
http://www.whitbygazette.co.uk/news...onia.3899520.jp
--

Martin

Martin

2008-03-26, 5:25 pm

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:26:38 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 26/3/08 19:03, in article fse6m5$b3q$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk, "Nick
>Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>Also from the WMN:
>
>"British law limits drivers to 60 hours a week at the wheel, but this is
>superseded by the new EU regulations if a driver covers more than 50km at
>any point in a single trip.
>
>Those drivers are required to have a continuous 45 hour rest period -
>effectively two days - within the same week.
>
>This poses a problem for small rural firms, who do not have the staff to
>cover the two-day break required, especially if they operate a Sunday
>service.
>
>Larger bus operators said they have worked around the new legislation and
>that services have not been disrupted.
>
>Operators First Devon and Cornwall operate a number of routes over 30 miles
>and carry 17 million passengers around the two counties every year.
>
>Company chiefs said they had decided it was more important to continue to
>serve the customers on these routes with no disruptions.
>
>A spokesman said: "The implementation of the 30-mile rule means there is the
>need for additional drivers and the purchase of tachographs for the
>vehicles. First has decided to absorb this cost, in the interest of our
>customers and services. It is not necessary for customers to change, or get
>on and off buses as we have altered the way in which these services are
>operated (which has ultimately increased costs) in order to ensure they
>continue to be operated legally." "

Don't they mean safely?
--

Martin

Judith in France

2008-03-26, 5:25 pm

On Mar 26, 4:37 pm, Sacha <sa...@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/3/08 16:28, in article fsdtj7$g8...@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk, "Nick
>
>
>
> Maclaren" <n...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Well, of course, the higher the pole, the longer it will take for the
> Wisteria to do its 'sweeping to the ground' thing! And of course, wind
> knocking it over if it's too high has to be taken in account. Personally,
> I'd say 5'. Much lower than that and you might as well let it just scramble
> through a bed on its own.
>
> --
> Sachahttp://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
> South Devon
> 'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
> children.'

Thanks Sacha, I will go for 5 ft the same height as me.

Judith

Sacha

2008-03-26, 8:25 pm

On 26/3/08 21:53, in article vchlu357eu42hsfddvit7m2s6i92jv22ff@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:26:38 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Don't they mean safely?

I can't second guess them, Martin. While I think a lot of this EU stuff is
irritatingly silly, I think some is an excuse to be sloppy or lazy, too. I
am NOT citing this as an example BTW. That said, I refuse to believe that
driving e.g. 60 miles is in any way dangerous for a bus driver operating
under sensible circumstances. I just wish we allowed for a degree of common
sense to be in operation, too!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-27, 9:25 am

In article <C4106F26.68C26%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...
> On 26/3/08 18:12, in article MPG.2254a283647377889897f0@News.Individual.NET,
> "Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Do people ask for it much with you? I've recommended it to several people
> and find none of heard of it.
> Yes, Ray grew ours from seed from the one on the front of our house and is
> now going to try C. nepalensis at the appropriate time, too.
>
>
>
Yes its always asked for we never have to "sell" it!
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Sacha

2008-03-27, 9:25 am

On 27/3/08 08:35, in article MPG.22556cc3882c19d9897f2@News.Individual.NET,
"Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <C4106F26.68C26%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
> sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...
> Yes its always asked for we never have to "sell" it!

Posh lot down there. ;-)

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-27, 9:25 am

In article <C4111974.68D07%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...
> On 27/3/08 08:35, in article MPG.22556cc3882c19d9897f2@News.Individual.NET,
> "Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Posh lot down there. ;-)
>
>
>
I think there are just more of them around so people see it and want it,
Clematis connata is even better but difficult to source but as its
equally large I have not got the space for another monster! I just love
the scent from these in the Autumn on the right day we can smell it from
about 10 yards or more
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Sacha

2008-03-27, 9:25 am

On 27/3/08 09:44, in article MPG.22557cf1c1be5c6f9897f3@News.Individual.NET,
"Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <C4111974.68D07%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
> sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...
> I think there are just more of them around so people see it and want it,
> Clematis connata is even better but difficult to source but as its
> equally large I have not got the space for another monster! I just love
> the scent from these in the Autumn on the right day we can smell it from
> about 10 yards or more

Grooooaaaan! Have you got one for sale, Charlie? If so, I've got to have
it now, blastit!

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Martin

2008-03-27, 9:25 am

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:34:45 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>
>I can't second guess them, Martin. While I think a lot of this EU stuff is
>irritatingly silly, I think some is an excuse to be sloppy or lazy, too. I
>am NOT citing this as an example BTW. That said, I refuse to believe that
>driving e.g. 60 miles is in any way dangerous for a bus driver operating
>under sensible circumstances. I just wish we allowed for a degree of common
>sense to be in operation, too!

It seems reasonable to limit the number of hours a driver can drive without a
break and for drivers to have 2 days rest a week like most of the rest of the
population. Most coach disasters result from drivers driving excess hours. I
notice that long distance buses on UK motorways are often travelling over the
speed limit. I find it reasonable to fit a tachygraph to a public transport bus.
--

Martin

Sacha

2008-03-27, 9:25 am

On 27/3/08 10:38, in article gvtmu3dj43ru8nc5ahijdrpreqov879iah@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:34:45 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> It seems reasonable to limit the number of hours a driver can drive without a
> break and for drivers to have 2 days rest a week like most of the rest of
> the
> population. Most coach disasters result from drivers driving excess hours. I
> notice that long distance buses on UK motorways are often travelling over the
> speed limit. I find it reasonable to fit a tachygraph to a public transport
> bus.

But this is applying also to small, local services, most or many of which
won't ever see a motorway. If I can drive e.g. Two hours to Chepstow and
back again in one day, as I shall do tomorrow, I really do not believe a bus
driver is at risk any more than I am. Two days off is fine if both driver
and company agree to it but in this instance, we're not talking about long
distance lorry drivers hauling huge loads. We're talking about small local
buses whose passengers have to get on and off in rain, wind, sleet and snow,
lugging shopping, babies and pushchairs each time. It's on a par with taxing
*everyone* who owns a 4x4 without taking into account that there are two
tiers of ownership - country livers that need them and town dwellers that
don't. The requirements for a long-distance coach driver going from Holland
to Scotland cannot possibly be the same as a bus driver going from Exeter to
Truro which is 87 miles and takes about two hours!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-27, 9:25 am

In article <C4111E7A.68D93%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...[color=darkred]
> On 27/3/08 09:44, in article MPG.22557cf1c1be5c6f9897f3@News.Individual.NET,
> "Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:
>
I have seed sown and if I get a germination will bear you in mind!
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Sacha

2008-03-27, 9:25 am

On 27/3/08 13:18, in article MPG.2255af0fe937426f9897f5@News.Individual.NET,
"Charlie Pridham" <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <C4111E7A.68D93%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
> sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk says...
> I have seed sown and if I get a germination will bear you in mind!

Many thanks.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Martin

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:47:05 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/3/08 10:38, in article gvtmu3dj43ru8nc5ahijdrpreqov879iah@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>But this is applying also to small, local services, most or many of which
>won't ever see a motorway. If I can drive e.g. Two hours to Chepstow and
>back again in one day, as I shall do tomorrow, I really do not believe a bus
>driver is at risk any more than I am.

If you were to do the equivalent distance on a rural route in a bus stopping
frequently and for eight hours at a time, sometimes for seven days a week, for
48 weeks a year I would agree with you.

> Two days off is fine if both driver
>and company agree to it but in this instance, we're not talking about long
>distance lorry drivers hauling huge loads.

The reason there is legislation is that workers are obliged to agree if they
want to work.

It's 2008 not 1908 everybody is entitled to a rest of two days a week.

>We're talking about small local
>buses whose passengers have to get on and off in rain, wind, sleet and snow,
>lugging shopping, babies and pushchairs each time.

Hardly the equivalent of driving to Chepstow and back.

> It's on a par with taxing
>*everyone* who owns a 4x4 without taking into account that there are two
>tiers of ownership - country livers that need them and town dwellers that
>don't.

The same companies make big profits on urban routes. Arriva has public transport
contracts in rural parts of the Netherlands too, if they can run them profitably
here without expecting drivers to work a Victorian working week, why not in UK
too?

> The requirements for a long-distance coach driver going from Holland
>to Scotland cannot possibly be the same as a bus driver going from Exeter to
>Truro which is 87 miles and takes about two hours!

I couldn;t find a rural bus service covering that route. I only found long
distance bus routes. Most local rural routes are lucky if they average 20 miles
an hour. When I was a kid I could cycle faster than the bus from Reading to
Windsor.

The requirement for a break after two hours is reasonable in any job.

Bus drivers have rest breaks on local routes in the Netherlands. When I used
Dutch public transport the drivers used to stop for a cigarette between the
Hague and Katwijk, a distance of about 12 miles. The journey took about an hour.
--

Martin

Emery Davis

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

Judith in France wrote:
> On Mar 26, 11:06 am, Emery Davis <laera...@essera.oc.ku> wrote:
[][color=darkred]
>
> Like the trees Emery, have you got any pics of your garden?
>

Hi Judith,

I have lots of recent pictures but none online; and most of them are
only of botanical
interest anyway. The only online ones are from over 10 years ago --
before I started
collecting maples and doing a lot with the larger garden -- from when we
were letting
the house for holidays. They are at
www.adelka.com/normandy/grounds.html but as
I say horribly out of date.

> I won't be seeing you in the Tabac/Bar then before 8a.m.with a little
> poodle under one arm, a paper under the other and a glass of
> Calvados? :-)
>

Na, that was the other fella!

-E

Sacha

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

On 27/3/08 14:32, in article 74anu3lpfl4f2g9amtk59oj0vi3q0hlgn9@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
<snip>>
> The reason there is legislation is that workers are obliged to agree if they
> want to work.
>
> It's 2008 not 1908 everybody is entitled to a rest of two days a week.

I don't think anybody's arguing about that.
This is a quote from the article and below is the link to the whole article
"Bus passengers on some rural routes are being forced off their vehicles
part way through their journey because of EU rules.

Legislation forbids bus drivers from travelling for more than 30 miles in
one go.

Passengers on some routes must get on and off their bus, sometimes twice, to
prevent bus operators from prosecution.

Operators in Cornwall have condemned the new rule brought in last April as
"idiotic" and have called for Whitehall to step in.

Western Greyhound, based in Newquay, has been forced to split its Newquay to
Plymouth service into three sections.

Although one driver is used throughout the trip, passengers have to buy
three tickets and break their journey twice."
http://tinyurl.com/2x6a49
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

In article <C4117776.68E06%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes:
|> On 27/3/08 14:32, in article 74anu3lpfl4f2g9amtk59oj0vi3q0hlgn9@4ax.com,
|> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
|>
|> > The reason there is legislation is that workers are obliged to agree if they
|> > want to work.
|> >
|> > It's 2008 not 1908 everybody is entitled to a rest of two days a week.
|>
|> I don't think anybody's arguing about that.
|> This is a quote from the article and below is the link to the whole article
|> "Bus passengers on some rural routes are being forced off their vehicles
|> part way through their journey because of EU rules.
|>
|> Legislation forbids bus drivers from travelling for more than 30 miles in
|> one go.

And people are pointing out that article is telling porkies. 'Tain't so.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Martin

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:10:30 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/3/08 14:32, in article 74anu3lpfl4f2g9amtk59oj0vi3q0hlgn9@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
><snip>>
>
>I don't think anybody's arguing about that.
>This is a quote from the article and below is the link to the whole article

because it is in a newspaper, it doesn't make it true. The EU has a website full
of idiot quotes from UK newspapers.
http://europa.eu/50/news/article/070907_en.htm
http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/p...hs/index_en.htm

>"Bus passengers on some rural routes are being forced off their vehicles
>part way through their journey because of EU rules.

LOL this is a classic dating back to 1999
http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/p...s/myth10_en.htm

There is no EU rule. It's fiction. Unless EU directives have been enacted in UK
laws they are not relevant in UK.

>
>Legislation forbids bus drivers from travelling for more than 30 miles in
>one go.

That's fiction too. Note all the bus passengers from Edinburgh to London getting
on and off buses every 30 miles :o)

>
>Passengers on some routes must get on and off their bus, sometimes twice, to
>prevent bus operators from prosecution.

and so is that.

>
>Operators in Cornwall have condemned the new rule brought in last April as
>"idiotic" and have called for Whitehall to step in.
>
>Western Greyhound, based in Newquay, has been forced to split its Newquay to
>Plymouth service into three sections.
>
>Although one driver is used throughout the trip, passengers have to buy
>three tickets and break their journey twice."
>http://tinyurl.com/2x6a49

Odd that this isn't happening anywhere else. :o)
--

Martin

Martin

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

On 27 Mar 2008 16:16:32 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

>
>In article <C4117776.68E06%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>,
>Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>|> On 27/3/08 14:32, in article 74anu3lpfl4f2g9amtk59oj0vi3q0hlgn9@4ax.com,
>|> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>|>
>|> > The reason there is legislation is that workers are obliged to agree if they
>|> > want to work.
>|> >
>|> > It's 2008 not 1908 everybody is entitled to a rest of two days a week.
>|>
>|> I don't think anybody's arguing about that.
>|> This is a quote from the article and below is the link to the whole article
>|> "Bus passengers on some rural routes are being forced off their vehicles
>|> part way through their journey because of EU rules.
>|>
>|> Legislation forbids bus drivers from travelling for more than 30 miles in
>|> one go.
>
>And people are pointing out that article is telling porkies. 'Tain't so.

It is truly amazing that bus companies are still repeating this EU myth, 9 years
after Neil Kinnock tried to put it to rest. Maybe nobody believed him. :o)

http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/p...s/myth10_en.htm
Euromyth: Driven crazy by barmy bus driver Brussels ruling

Grandma Lilian Brunton is being driven round the bend by daft new EU rules for
bus drivers. They mean she has to get off her bus halfway through her journey -
then go to the back of the queue to get back on … the potty new EU regulation
.... states that drivers on routes more than 30 miles should work shorter hours
and have longer breaks.
The Sun, Thursday, 7 January 1999, p15

"The splitting of the 484 bus route in West Yorkshire is daft. But there is no
"potty new EU regulation" that has caused it, and there are certainly no EU
rules saying how long a bus route may be.

The EU rules agreed by Ministers in 1985 generally requires that drivers of
buses shall drive no more than 9 hours a day on average, and that drivers on bus
routes of less than 30 miles in length may work an average 10 hour day.

The reason for this rule is clearly road and passenger safety. Fatigue is the
biggest cause of road accidents and it is vitally important that bus drivers,
who may be transporting up to 70 passengers, are alert throughout their working
day. The rules, therefore, require adequate rest periods for drivers during the
day and a reasonable maximum working day. Obviously, the longer a journey the
more likely the driver is to get tired - hence a shorter working day for drivers
on routes over 30 miles long. However, this rules does not stipulate in any way
that bus routes cannot be more than 30 miles in length.

It is the bus operator, Arriva, that has decided that passengers should have to
get off the bus halfway through the journey, since it is Arriva that wants
drivers to work more than 9 hours a day on this route. The company has already
tried a similar tactic on its 685 Newcastle-Carlisle bus service which it split
into three to try and get more working hours out of its drivers."

Letter by Neil Kinnock, European Transport Commissioner to The Sun, 7 January
1999"
--

Martin

Sacha

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

On 27/3/08 16:49, in article mijnu3lgnaavg0sin13q460ipuc8qgag7d@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> On 27 Mar 2008 16:16:32 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
>
>
> It is truly amazing that bus companies are still repeating this EU myth, 9
> years
> after Neil Kinnock tried to put it to rest. Maybe nobody believed him. :o)
>
> http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/p...s/myth10_en.htm
> Euromyth: Driven crazy by barmy bus driver Brussels ruling
<snip>

I'll forward that to the local paper and see if they take it up. BTW
Martin, I've emailed you with a request to translate something for me from
Dutch into English. It's a friend of Ray's who's died recently and while we
can get most of it, there are a few vital words we'd liketo understand! If
you didn't get it, can you email me or tell me here? Many thanks.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Martin

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:06:58 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/3/08 16:49, in article mijnu3lgnaavg0sin13q460ipuc8qgag7d@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>I'll forward that to the local paper and see if they take it up. BTW
>Martin, I've emailed you with a request to translate something for me from
>Dutch into English. It's a friend of Ray's who's died recently and while we
>can get most of it, there are a few vital words we'd liketo understand! If
>you didn't get it, can you email me or tell me here? Many thanks.

I haven't received it yet.
--

Martin

Martin

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

Sacha

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

On 27/3/08 17:18, in article pllnu3p5bjik0hci7qilpmdhkgmv6a0ldj@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:06:58 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Orange thought you were a spammer. I have answered your e-mail.

I've got it and thank you - flowers have been ordered. Myzen thought you
were a spammer, too but your email did get through! Thanks so much for
that.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

2008-03-27, 1:25 pm

Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes
>On 27/3/08 14:32, in article 74anu3lpfl4f2g9amtk59oj0vi3q0hlgn9@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
><snip>>
>
>I don't think anybody's arguing about that.
>This is a quote from the article and below is the link to the whole article
>"Bus passengers on some rural routes are being forced off their vehicles
>part way through their journey because of EU rules.
>
>Legislation forbids bus drivers from travelling for more than 30 miles in
>one go.

This is incorrect. The legislation does not forbid bus drivers from
travelling more than 30 miles'

The EU rules lay down rest breaks and require tachographs. However, to
make life easier, they have exempted vehicles travelling less than 50km
(31 miles) in one go. So what may be happening is that bus companies are
cutting route lengths in order to avoid having to monitor drivers' hours
and ensure rest breaks.

The EU legislation can be found at
http://tinyurl.com/2jqzfo
--
Kay

Stewart Robert Hinsley

2008-03-27, 5:25 pm

In message <C4117776.68E06%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk>, Sacha
<sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes
>On 27/3/08 14:32, in article 74anu3lpfl4f2g9amtk59oj0vi3q0hlgn9@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
><snip>>
>
>I don't think anybody's arguing about that.
>This is a quote from the article and below is the link to the whole article
>"Bus passengers on some rural routes are being forced off their vehicles
>part way through their journey because of EU rules.
>
>Legislation forbids bus drivers from travelling for more than 30 miles in
>one go.
>
>Passengers on some routes must get on and off their bus, sometimes twice, to
>prevent bus operators from prosecution.
>
>Operators in Cornwall have condemned the new rule brought in last April as
>"idiotic" and have called for Whitehall to step in.
>
>Western Greyhound, based in Newquay, has been forced to split its Newquay to
>Plymouth service into three sections.
>
>Although one driver is used throughout the trip, passengers have to buy
>three tickets and break their journey twice."
>http://tinyurl.com/2x6a49

Either the driver is taking the required breaks, in which case what is
gained by requiring the passengers to disembark, and to buy three
tickets, or the driver is not taking the required breaks (on the
argument that he is not driving a single service, and therefore doesn't
have to take the breaks?), in which case at least the spirit of the law
is being broken.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

2008-03-27, 5:25 pm

Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes
>On 27/3/08 10:38, in article gvtmu3dj43ru8nc5ahijdrpreqov879iah@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>But this is applying also to small, local services, most or many of which
>won't ever see a motorway. If I can drive e.g. Two hours to Chepstow and
>back again in one day, as I shall do tomorrow, I really do not believe a bus
>driver is at risk any more than I am.

Isn't that what the new regs are doing? Suggesting that a bus driver
should drive 2 hours to Chepstow, then have a break before driving 2 hrs
back again?

<Snip>

> We're talking about small local
>buses whose passengers have to get on and off in rain, wind, sleet and snow,
>lugging shopping, babies and pushchairs each time.

If my bus driver is concentrating on driving along narrow country lanes
in rain, sleet and snow, I would prefer him/her not to keep going for 3
or 4 hours without a break.

<Snip>

> The requirements for a long-distance coach driver going from Holland
>to Scotland cannot possibly be the same as a bus driver going from Exeter to
>Truro which is 87 miles and takes about two hours!

But they could be very similar to a bus driver going from Exeter to
Truro and back again, then having half an hour break for lunch and then
repeating the whole thing over again.

--
Kay

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-27, 5:25 pm

<C41147C9.68DB1%sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> <4WR0OYErX$6HFwgQ@scarboro.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: libra.cus.cam.ac.uk
Originator: nmm1@libra.cus.cam.ac.uk
Bytes: 1934
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com uk.rec.gardening:484706

In article <4WR0OYErX$6HFwgQ@scarboro.demon.co.uk>,
K <k@scarboro.demon.co.uk> writes:
|> Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes
|>
|> > The requirements for a long-distance coach driver going from Holland
|> >to Scotland cannot possibly be the same as a bus driver going from Exeter to
|> >Truro which is 87 miles and takes about two hours!
|>
|> But they could be very similar to a bus driver going from Exeter to
|> Truro and back again, then having half an hour break for lunch and then
|> repeating the whole thing over again.

Or one who was expected to do the double trip twice in a day, with
no break for lunch.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Martin

2008-03-27, 5:25 pm

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:58:52 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/3/08 17:18, in article pllnu3p5bjik0hci7qilpmdhkgmv6a0ldj@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>I've got it and thank you - flowers have been ordered. Myzen thought you
>were a spammer, too but your email did get through! Thanks so much for
>that.

No problem and thanks for giving us a laugh with the buses. :o)
--

Martin

Sacha

2008-03-27, 8:25 pm

On 27/3/08 19:30, in article 4WR0OYErX$6HFwgQ@scarboro.demon.co.uk, "K"
<k@scarboro.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes
>
> Isn't that what the new regs are doing? Suggesting that a bus driver
> should drive 2 hours to Chepstow, then have a break before driving 2 hrs
> back again?
>
> <Snip>
>
>
> If my bus driver is concentrating on driving along narrow country lanes
> in rain, sleet and snow, I would prefer him/her not to keep going for 3
> or 4 hours without a break.
>
> <Snip>
>
>
> But they could be very similar to a bus driver going from Exeter to
> Truro and back again, then having half an hour break for lunch and then
> repeating the whole thing over again.

I think the post from Martin re the Neil Kinnock letter clears this up. Now
I'll be interested to see if our local paper and bus services pick up on it.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha

2008-03-27, 8:25 pm

On 27/3/08 21:01, in article 0n2ou3dljb990lhmjbhfueinupadpggdl5@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:58:52 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> No problem and thanks for giving us a laugh with the buses. :o)

Not my laugh though it's interesting the local paper pounced on it so
quickly *and* have found people apparently inconvenienced by whatever IS
going on!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Charlie Pridham

2008-03-28, 9:25 am

In article <4WR0OYErX$6HFwgQ@scarboro.demon.co.uk>,
k@scarboro.demon.co.uk says...
> Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> writes
>
> Isn't that what the new regs are doing? Suggesting that a bus driver
> should drive 2 hours to Chepstow, then have a break before driving 2 hrs
> back again?
>
> <Snip>
>
>
> If my bus driver is concentrating on driving along narrow country lanes
> in rain, sleet and snow, I would prefer him/her not to keep going for 3
> or 4 hours without a break.
>
> <Snip>
>
>
> But they could be very similar to a bus driver going from Exeter to
> Truro and back again, then having half an hour break for lunch and then
> repeating the whole thing over again.
>
>
That has always been the case, the change is that if he does longer
journeys he/she has to work a five day week not six, which means
employing more drivers as the standard working week in the industry is 6
day, the rules also require a taco graph to be fitted to check driver
hours on the longer routes, it is a clear case of the bus companies being
bad employers and shifting the blame onto Europe in the hope that public
pressure will get the rules changed. We already enjoy an expensive
service that fails to meet demand in country areas despite public
subsidy, one would have at least hoped it was a safe one.
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Martin

2008-03-28, 9:25 am

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:50:20 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/3/08 19:30, in article 4WR0OYErX$6HFwgQ@scarboro.demon.co.uk, "K"
><k@scarboro.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>I think the post from Martin re the Neil Kinnock letter clears this up.

A first for Neil Kinnock? :o)

> Now
>I'll be interested to see if our local paper and bus services pick up on it.

In the meantime I'll try and get the sad story of how the MCA stopped a Dunkirk
veteran day tripper boat running from Scarborough to Whitby as it had done for
years by invoking an EU directive incorrectly, added to the Euromyth site. It's
very similar to the bus story. The directive says that Class C passenger
carrying boats must always be within 15 miles of a safe harbour. MCA interpreted
this as being within 15 miles of the home harbour.
--

Martin

Martin

2008-03-28, 9:25 am

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:51:29 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/3/08 21:01, in article 0n2ou3dljb990lhmjbhfueinupadpggdl5@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
>Not my laugh though it's interesting the local paper pounced on it so
>quickly *and* have found people apparently inconvenienced by whatever IS
>going on!

I laughed at the local newspaper, not at the poor passengers. I ma full of
admiration for the editors and staff of the Scarborough & Whitby local
newspapers, which frequently do see through all these tricks including local
authority corruption.
--

Martin

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-28, 9:25 am

In article <MPG.2256bd4343948a0d9897f7@News.Individual.NET>,
Charlie Pridham <charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk> writes:
|> >
|> That has always been the case, the change is that if he does longer
|> journeys he/she has to work a five day week not six, which means
|> employing more drivers as the standard working week in the industry is 6
|> day, the rules also require a taco graph to be fitted to check driver
|> hours on the longer routes, it is a clear case of the bus companies being
|> bad employers and shifting the blame onto Europe in the hope that public
|> pressure will get the rules changed. We already enjoy an expensive
|> service that fails to meet demand in country areas despite public
|> subsidy, one would have at least hoped it was a safe one.

And treated its workers decently.

But The Powers That Be in the UK believe in Victorian values - in this
context, see under Tolpuddle Martyrs.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren

2008-03-28, 9:25 am

In article <r8cpu3lfo1srgcqufdrugqih4ii82tp7ab@4ax.com>,
Martin <me@address.invalid> writes:
|> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:50:20 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
|>
|> >I think the post from Martin re the Neil Kinnock letter clears this up.
|>
|> A first for Neil Kinnock? :o)

Actually, he has done first class work in the EU. As a Leader of the
Opposition against Margaret Thatcher, he was her greatest political
advantage.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Martin

2008-03-28, 9:25 am

On 28 Mar 2008 09:07:21 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

>
>In article <r8cpu3lfo1srgcqufdrugqih4ii82tp7ab@4ax.com>,
>Martin <me@address.invalid> writes:
>|> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:50:20 +0000, Sacha <sacha@nowhere.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>|>
>|> >I think the post from Martin re the Neil Kinnock letter clears this up.
>|>
>|> A first for Neil Kinnock? :o)
>
>Actually, he has done first class work in the EU.

He certainly did well for his family and the Labour Party by moving there. :o)

> As a Leader of the
>Opposition against Margaret Thatcher, he was her greatest political
>advantage.

True.
--

Martin

Sacha

2008-03-28, 5:25 pm

On 28/3/08 10:13, in article k4hpu39hbb5tobke437e0uit8nhb8dndu9@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> On 28 Mar 2008 09:07:21 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
>
>
> He certainly did well for his family and the Labour Party by moving there. :o)
>
>
> True.

How he lost Labour the election must surely go down in history in any "How
Not to Win at Politics" book I would think
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

LinkBot