| Author |
a toilet's stability
|
|
|
| Where should a floor mounted toilet get most of its stability from?
Is it where it primarily from being bolted down or is the grout a
significant factor in its stability?
Thanks in advance,
Chris
| |
| Red Jacket The Laughing Indian ! 2005-10-23, 3:21 am |
| Excellent question. The toilet or water closet stays on the floor
by its own weight and the person sitting on it.
The gasket is a seal to keep gases out and help
the siphon action.
The flange bolts are to act as help in sealing and a place
holder. They are hand tightened only.
The grout/calk is there to keep water from getting in and
then bacteria would form in there giving unpleasant odors.
Heavy people are always a problem with water closets.
"tja" <notsupplied@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:DfSdndeoOckJisbenZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@warpdrive.net...
Where should a floor mounted toilet get most of its stability from?
Is it where it primarily from being bolted down or is the grout a
significant factor in its stability?
Thanks in advance,
Chris
| |
| Blackbeard 2005-10-23, 11:21 am |
| Well if you have a great solution for fat people, let me know.
My brother-in-law weighs a solid 500-lbs. I go over there fairly
frequently to "fix" the toilet. And I've tried damn near everything I
can think of to keep that XXXXX solid to the floor.
I don't know what the hell the dude does in there. I don't know if he
sits in there and rocks back and forth or swivels his hips are what
the fuck the guy is doing in there. I've been over there more than
once where the bead of silicone has been torn from the floor as the
whole water closet shifted.
Maybe I should just install a "squatter" and be done with the whole
thing. either that or I could install a shower with a 4" trap and just
tell him to step into the shower and squeeze it right onto the floor.
| |
| Casino Knight 2005-10-23, 3:21 pm |
|
This may be what you need.
http://greatjohn.com/grjodi.html
"Blackbeard" <michael_curtis_you
ng@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:ft3nl1d670jl215fh33ch4e15hgcv5q2v3@4ax.com...
> Well if you have a great solution for fat people, let me know.
>
> My brother-in-law weighs a solid 500-lbs. I go over there fairly
> frequently to "fix" the toilet. And I've tried damn near everything I
> can think of to keep that XXXXX solid to the floor.
>
> I don't know what the hell the dude does in there. I don't know if he
> sits in there and rocks back and forth or swivels his hips are what
> the fuck the guy is doing in there. I've been over there more than
> once where the bead of silicone has been torn from the floor as the
> whole water closet shifted.
>
> Maybe I should just install a "squatter" and be done with the whole
> thing. either that or I could install a shower with a 4" trap and just
> tell him to step into the shower and squeeze it right onto the floor.
| |
| Mike Grooms 2005-10-23, 7:21 pm |
|
"Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !"
I don't know about everyone else, but I crank toilet bolts pretty tight.
| |
| Red Jacket The Laughing Indian ! 2005-10-24, 4:21 am |
| A prison toilet BB.
We talked some ruffneck bars into putting them in.
II'll tell you what tho....even some guys can rip them off
a wall.
"Blackbeard" <michael_curtis_young@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:ft3nl1d670jl215fh33ch4e15hgcv5q2v3@4ax.com...
Well if you have a great solution for fat people, let me know.
My brother-in-law weighs a solid 500-lbs. I go over there fairly
frequently to "fix" the toilet. And I've tried damn near everything I
can think of to keep that XXXXX solid to the floor.
I don't know what the hell the dude does in there. I don't know if he
sits in there and rocks back and forth or swivels his hips are what
the fuck the guy is doing in there. I've been over there more than
once where the bead of silicone has been torn from the floor as the
whole water closet shifted.
Maybe I should just install a "squatter" and be done with the whole
thing. either that or I could install a shower with a 4" trap and just
tell him to step into the shower and squeeze it right onto the floor.
| |
| Red Jacket The Laughing Indian ! 2005-10-24, 4:21 am |
| Its a fancy prison or jail type toilet. Looks good to me.
Go with cost, stainless steel or this one.
Its 17 1/2 " I like that, it be nice if they were higher tho...
"Casino Knight" <casinoknight@fastq.com> wrote in message
news:j1Q6f.3197$UF4.2531@fed1read02...
This may be what you need.
http://greatjohn.com/grjodi.html
"Blackbeard" <michael_curtis_you
ng@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:ft3nl1d670jl215fh33ch4e15hgcv5q2v3@4ax.com...
> Well if you have a great solution for fat people, let me know.
>
> My brother-in-law weighs a solid 500-lbs. I go over there fairly
> frequently to "fix" the toilet. And I've tried damn near everything I
> can think of to keep that XXXXX solid to the floor.
>
> I don't know what the hell the dude does in there. I don't know if he
> sits in there and rocks back and forth or swivels his hips are what
> the fuck the guy is doing in there. I've been over there more than
> once where the bead of silicone has been torn from the floor as the
> whole water closet shifted.
>
> Maybe I should just install a "squatter" and be done with the whole
> thing. either that or I could install a shower with a 4" trap and just
> tell him to step into the shower and squeeze it right onto the floor.
| |
| Red Jacket The Laughing Indian ! 2005-10-24, 4:21 am |
| That's Ok mike, you do everything wrong <G>
"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:b7f8$435c027f$d8c48894$12252@FUSE.NET...
"Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !"
I don't know about everyone else, but I crank toilet bolts pretty tight.
| |
| Ned Flanders 2005-10-24, 6:30 pm |
| i tighten the bolts pretty tight too.
if the toilet rocks ill double up on the wax rings (like on tile floor)
and sometimes even shim it if bad enough. sometimes I have had to lag screw
the toilet to floor to make it stable enough.
"Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !" <RedJacketTheaughingindian!@yahoo.com>
wrote in message news:hb-dnTYn4oWxHMHeRVn-tw@adelphia.com...
> That's Ok mike, you do everything wrong <G>
>
>
> "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:b7f8$435c027f$d8c48894$12252@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !"
>
> I don't know about everyone else, but I crank toilet bolts pretty tight.
>
>
>
| |
| Bob Wheatley 2005-10-24, 8:21 pm |
| "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_sb7f.1144$0V6.631@trndny06...
>i tighten the bolts pretty tight too.
> if the toilet rocks ill double up on the wax rings (like on tile floor)
> and sometimes even shim it if bad enough. sometimes I have had to lag
> screw the toilet to floor to make it stable enough.
>
I personally guarantee you that if you level the toilet properly (think 4
corners) that you will not have to excessively tighten or use lag screws.
I know that some folks use "wobble wedges" and other such products but it is
very difficult to beat plain old sheet lead. (pieces of flashing)
It's flat, it doesn't rust or rot, and it is easy shape.
Dry set the toilet (without wax) and level to a point where the toilet does
not rock without any closet bolts. Make sure the lead is in the locations
where it needs to be and lift the bowl straight up while making sure the
lead remains on the floor and in the locations where it belongs. Set your
wax ring and lower the bowl onto the lead shims. Tighten "carefully".
Bob Wheatley
| |
| Red Jacket The Laughing Indian ! 2005-10-24, 8:21 pm |
| I use rubber rings on tile.
See, I'm a pro.
"Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_sb7f.1144$0V6.631@trndny06...
i tighten the bolts pretty tight too.
if the toilet rocks ill double up on the wax rings (like on tile floor)
and sometimes even shim it if bad enough. sometimes I have had to lag screw
the toilet to floor to make it stable enough.
"Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !" <RedJacketTheaughingindian!@yahoo.com>
wrote in message news:hb-dnTYn4oWxHMHeRVn-tw@adelphia.com...
> That's Ok mike, you do everything wrong <G>
>
>
> "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:b7f8$435c027f$d8c48894$12252@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !"
>
> I don't know about everyone else, but I crank toilet bolts pretty tight.
>
>
>
| |
| Mike Grooms 2005-10-24, 11:21 pm |
|
"Bob Wheatley"
Realizing I'm asking a my guru, have you ever met a plumber who actually
broke a toilet by tightening the closet bolts too tight? I never have.
| |
| Bob Wheatley 2005-10-24, 11:21 pm |
| "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:3a564$435d8b55$d8c48894$21383@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Bob Wheatley"
>
> Realizing I'm asking a my guru, have you ever met a plumber who actually
> broke a toilet by tightening the closet bolts too tight? I never have.
>
Yes sir I have.
Actually....I broke one myself back in '79 despite being taught better by my
dad. I have seen a handful since then.....
Any time you have a situation where the china is suspended or is unsupported
above the closet bolts and you over-tighten you are asking for the bowl to
break. Although I must admit that I have seen more tanks broken than bowls,
it is a fact that either can be broken if over tightened.
Bob Wheatley
| |
| Ned Flanders 2005-10-25, 7:21 pm |
| I have broken a couple of them. I use plastic wedges not lead.
I have a plastic washer as normal on tile or anything else, I use 2 wax
rings if tile is very irregular and if bad enough i use my plastic wedges.
This is a better option because #1 plastic is not deadly and #2 plastic does
not compress as easily. I never use rubber here.
"Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !" <RedJacketTheaughingindian!@yahoo.com>
wrote in message news:79OdnUEjX9x_-MDeRVn-qw@adelphia.com...
>I use rubber rings on tile.
> See, I'm a pro.
>
>
> "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:_sb7f.1144$0V6.631@trndny06...
> i tighten the bolts pretty tight too.
> if the toilet rocks ill double up on the wax rings (like on tile floor)
> and sometimes even shim it if bad enough. sometimes I have had to lag
> screw
> the toilet to floor to make it stable enough.
>
>
> "Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !" <RedJacketTheaughingindian!@yahoo.com>
> wrote in message news:hb-dnTYn4oWxHMHeRVn-tw@adelphia.com...
>
>
>
| |
| Bob Wheatley 2005-10-25, 8:21 pm |
| "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:f_x7f.9038$%A1.3829@trndny01...
>I have broken a couple of them. I use plastic wedges not lead.
> I have a plastic washer as normal on tile or anything else, I use 2 wax
> rings if tile is very irregular and if bad enough i use my plastic wedges.
> This is a better option because #1 plastic is not deadly and #2 plastic
> does not compress as easily. I never use rubber here.
>
The primary reason I do not allow my men to use "wobble wedges" is because
most guys just push the toilet down to the floor and then start pushing the
wedges in until the toilet is level.
The problem with that should be obvious.
When you push wedges or washers in _after_ the toilet has been lowered to
the floor, you are _raising_ the bottom of the bowl.
Unless y'all are using some sort of space aged wax that I don't know about
you are leaving a broken seal.
Think about it, wax has zero elasticity. When you compress it, it does not
re-expand to fill it's former shape. Once a toilet has been pushed down to
the floor and you lift it, you are leaving the wax behind.
That's why I described the traditional (and correct) method of dry setting
and pre-leveling.
Bob Wheatley
| |
| Red Jacket The Laughing Indian ! 2005-10-26, 2:21 am |
|
"Bob Wheatley" <xmaster.dancer@directway.com> wrote in message
news:11lr3n8ia92kr41@corp.supernews.com...
> "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:3a564$435d8b55$d8c48894$21383@FUSE.NET...
actually[color=darkred]
>
>
> Yes sir I have.
> Actually....I broke one myself back in '79 despite being taught better by
my
> dad. I have seen a handful since then.....
> Any time you have a situation where the china is suspended or is
unsupported
> above the closet bolts and you over-tighten you are asking for the bowl to
> break. Although I must admit that I have seen more tanks broken than
bowls,
> it is a fact that either can be broken if over tightened.
>
>
> Bob Wheatley
>
I broke two toilets in my life and never had it happen again !
I over did the flange bolts, sometime later the porcelin broke.
My Dad taught me same same Bob.
>
| |
| Ned Flanders 2005-10-26, 9:21 pm |
| I never said to push wedges under toilet after the fact. I said I don't
like lead because it changes shape or compresses which makes it hard to fit
just right and its toxic (we try to be green here). I level toilet mark
wedges then cut my wedges so they don't stick out past my (required by code)
bead of silicone.
When you work with some of the more fancy tiles you will see that sometimes
you are looking at over a 1/4 inch difference in elevations. I do not
install the toilet slanted, I level it up. I use 1 wax ring with horn and
one without. This has always worked well for us. I have not warmed up to
the waxless seals which on paper look like a good choice for tile.
also I think the wax does move and stretch a bit. I agree that you want to
try not to lift the toilet too much but a fresh wax ring will move a good
1/8 inch. ( This is only a guess from experience; never done a controlled
test)
I think we agree in general I just like to use plastic instead of lead. (on
boats we used bedding compound)
I did one time have to make my own cement platform that they tiled up to.
The tile was one giant tile actually poured in place. They covered floor
with white rocks; small ones.(like 1/2") roundish. then poured green
colored epoxy into floor, the green when dry was see-through but green.
This would have been hard to level with wedges so I recommended that I pour
a mini-slab the exact footprint of toilet. This also solved their other
concern of being able to see plumbing around edge of toilet. The outside of
the cement was painted white. My finish job looks like the toilet just
disappears into the floor.
Ever heard of frit ??
"Bob Wheatley" <xmaster.dancer@directway.com> wrote in message
news:11ltegbg7sjuh99@corp.supernews.com...
> "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:f_x7f.9038$%A1.3829@trndny01...
>
>
> The primary reason I do not allow my men to use "wobble wedges" is because
> most guys just push the toilet down to the floor and then start pushing
> the wedges in until the toilet is level.
> The problem with that should be obvious.
> When you push wedges or washers in _after_ the toilet has been lowered to
> the floor, you are _raising_ the bottom of the bowl.
> Unless y'all are using some sort of space aged wax that I don't know about
> you are leaving a broken seal.
> Think about it, wax has zero elasticity. When you compress it, it does not
> re-expand to fill it's former shape. Once a toilet has been pushed down to
> the floor and you lift it, you are leaving the wax behind.
> That's why I described the traditional (and correct) method of dry setting
> and pre-leveling.
>
>
> Bob Wheatley
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| Bob Wheatley 2005-10-26, 9:21 pm |
| "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:VsU7f.7066$p_6.1961@trndny07...
>I never said to push wedges under toilet after the fact. I said I don't
>like lead because it changes shape or compresses which makes it hard to fit
>just right and its toxic (we try to be green here). I level toilet mark
>wedges then cut my wedges so they don't stick out past my (required by
>code) bead of silicone.
>
I never said _you_ did.
I said that I don't allow them because "most guys" do.
I'd just as soon set a standard that I know works well and have one less
thing to worry about. We've never went back to reset a toilet using lead.
Nor will it compress if it is prepared properly. Just snip out a half dozen
or so 1/2" squares and stack them and tap them down. No big deal.
Again, this is my company policy. Not a mandate to the world.
When you're fuckin' your own cow, I'll just hold the tail for you.:> )
> When you work with some of the more fancy tiles you will see that
> sometimes you are looking at over a 1/4 inch difference in elevations. I
> do not install the toilet slanted, I level it up. I use 1 wax ring with
> horn and one without. This has always worked well for us. I have not
> warmed up to
I only use two rings when on a problem floor. (Like the tile you described)
I also do prefer the "No-Seep" style with the plastic insert.
> the waxless seals which on paper look like a good choice for tile.
>
I haven't noticed those. Are they the same as the rubber gaskets we use on
wall hung toilets?
> also I think the wax does move and stretch a bit. I agree that you want to
> try not to lift the toilet too much but a fresh wax ring will move a good
> 1/8 inch. ( This is only a guess from experience; never done a controlled
> test)
>
You may want to test that theory.
Just poke your finger in the wax and see what happens....
Nothing.
> I think we agree in general I just like to use plastic instead of lead.
> (on boats we used bedding compound)
>
Yeah, good plumbing is good plumbing.
We all have our reasons for doing things the way we do them.
I've expressed mine. You've expressed yours.
No biggie. Wobble wedge away.:> )
> I did one time have to make my own cement platform that they tiled up to.
> The tile was one giant tile actually poured in place. They covered floor
> with white rocks; small ones.(like 1/2") roundish. then poured green
> colored epoxy into floor, the green when dry was see-through but green.
> This would have been hard to level with wedges so I recommended that I
> pour a mini-slab the exact footprint of toilet. This also solved their
> other concern of being able to see plumbing around edge of toilet. The
> outside of the cement was painted white. My finish job looks like the
> toilet just disappears into the floor.
>
Sounds like weird circumstance.
> Ever heard of frit ??
>
As in glass?
Bob Wheatley
| |
| Mike Grooms 2005-10-26, 10:21 pm |
|
"Bob Wheatley"
>
> I only use two rings when on a problem floor. (Like the tile you
described)
> I also do prefer the "No-Seep" style with the plastic insert.
While we're on that subject, I've run into this problem with the "no-seep"
rings with the insert. It seems like when you're forced to put the closet
collar on the finished floor, some brands of toilets hit the insert with the
horn before the base hits the floor. Does anyone else run into this?
| |
| Bob Wheatley 2005-10-26, 11:21 pm |
| "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:65f09$4360222a$42a1a5e0$4160@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Bob Wheatley"
> described)
>
> While we're on that subject, I've run into this problem with the
> "no-seep"
> rings with the insert. It seems like when you're forced to put the closet
> collar on the finished floor, some brands of toilets hit the insert with
> the
> horn before the base hits the floor. Does anyone else run into this?
>
Are you using them with plastic flanges?
I only use brass.
Bob Wheatley
| |
| Mike Grooms 2005-10-27, 11:21 am |
|
"Bob Wheatley"
>
> Are you using them with plastic flanges?
> I only use brass.
That's exactly the remedy. My complaint is that the toilets should be
made with more clearance. Obviously there's little room for adjustments. I
like the plastic repair flanges that reach down into the closet bend, but I
always have to remember to bring wax rings without the inserts. I don't
remember this ever happening with older toilets.
| |
| Ned Flanders 2005-10-27, 4:21 pm |
| yes i have seen that problem with the horn sticking down too far. I use reg
wax ring in that case.
This brings up another good practice with wax rings,
Put it on the toilet then set toilet not put wax on floor then try to set
toilet on it.
"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:28db1$4360da9f$42a1a5e0$9863@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Bob Wheatley"
>
> That's exactly the remedy. My complaint is that the toilets should be
> made with more clearance. Obviously there's little room for adjustments.
> I
> like the plastic repair flanges that reach down into the closet bend, but
> I
> always have to remember to bring wax rings without the inserts. I don't
> remember this ever happening with older toilets.
>
>
| |
| Red Jacket The Laughing Indian ! 2005-10-27, 7:21 pm |
| I do the same. I put a chalk mark + on the floor so my
aim is close <G>
"Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ad98f.13854$%A1.5064@trndny01...
> yes i have seen that problem with the horn sticking down too far. I use
reg
> wax ring in that case.
>
> This brings up another good practice with wax rings,
> Put it on the toilet then set toilet not put wax on floor then try to set
> toilet on it.
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:28db1$4360da9f$42a1a5e0$9863@FUSE.NET...
adjustments.[color=darkred]
but[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Ned Flanders 2005-10-27, 9:21 pm |
| before the days of wax rings they used a plaster like mix of newspaper and
plaster or something like that and it was called frit i think. maybe im
just forgetting the real name but i thaught it was frit.
"Red Jacket The Laughing Indian !" <RedJacketTheaughingindian!@yahoo.com>
wrote in message news:q5ednc6ezsm61vzeRVn-vQ@adelphia.com...
>I do the same. I put a chalk mark + on the floor so my
> aim is close <G>
>
> "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ad98f.13854$%A1.5064@trndny01...
> reg
> adjustments.
> but
>
| |
| Bob Wheatley 2005-10-27, 10:21 pm |
| "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0ed8f.7452$p_6.2747@trndny07...
> before the days of wax rings they used a plaster like mix of newspaper and
> plaster or something like that and it was called frit i think. maybe im
> just forgetting the real name but i thaught it was frit.
Plaster of Paris & newspaper clippings was used to make "dynamite".
That was how we (plumbers) capped off risers (baldies and hubs) to perform
tests. It may have been known in other areas by other names.
Bob Wheatley
| |
| PipeDown 2005-10-28, 4:21 pm |
| > "Well if you have a great solution for fat people, let me know."
Try building a substantial wooden box around the toilet and mount a toilet
seat onto that surface (over a hole of course). Surround the alcove/box
with some heavy duty grab bars and you have something. The trick is to not
let the fat guy actually sit on the toilet ( I imagine an outhouse bench
over a real toilet). Make sure to hinge the top and front so it can be
cleaned. He can even put a carved wooden backrest behind it and call it a
throne.
500lbs! your're gonna need 4X4 construction unless you can weld steel. It
may be possible to build off of the wall studs.
"Blackbeard" <michael_curtis_young@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:ft3nl1d670jl215fh33ch4e15hgcv5q2v3@4ax.com...
> Well if you have a great solution for fat people, let me know.
>
> My brother-in-law weighs a solid 500-lbs. I go over there fairly
> frequently to "fix" the toilet. And I've tried damn near everything I
> can think of to keep that XXXXX solid to the floor.
>
> I don't know what the hell the dude does in there. I don't know if he
> sits in there and rocks back and forth or swivels his hips are what
> the fuck the guy is doing in there. I've been over there more than
> once where the bead of silicone has been torn from the floor as the
> whole water closet shifted.
>
> Maybe I should just install a "squatter" and be done with the whole
> thing. either that or I could install a shower with a 4" trap and just
> tell him to step into the shower and squeeze it right onto the floor.
|
|
|
|