Plumbing forum - wierd situation

Author

wierd situation

Mike Grooms

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

OK Guys,

Here's one that's got me puzzled. It's in a one bath, one kitchen
apartment that has it's own WH. The bathroom was piped by the former owner,
so anything is possible (it's the same place that almost killed me two
months ago). All the faucets are two handle, and there's no laundry.

The problem is that the cold water never gets cold. It's always lukewarm
or hot. I thought it'd to be a simple cross connection somewhere, but it's
more complicated. Here's what happens. When I go to the WH, and hold the
pipes when the hot is run, the cold inlet gets cold, and the hot outlet gets
hot (which is normal of course). But when the cold is run, the hot water
backs through the WH, making the cold inlet get hot.

So what could make hot water come backwards through the cold inlet, and
then throughout the rest of the cold system?

The only way I can think to fix it is to put a check valve in the cold
inlet, but it doesn't ease my mind any.

Bob Wheatley

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:c9161$43223ec1$d8c48df5$23432@FUSE.NET...
> OK Guys,
>
> Here's one that's got me puzzled. It's in a one bath, one kitchen
> apartment that has it's own WH. The bathroom was piped by the former
> owner,
> so anything is possible (it's the same place that almost killed me two
> months ago). All the faucets are two handle, and there's no laundry.
>
> The problem is that the cold water never gets cold. It's always lukewarm
> or hot. I thought it'd to be a simple cross connection somewhere, but
> it's
> more complicated. Here's what happens. When I go to the WH, and hold the
> pipes when the hot is run, the cold inlet gets cold, and the hot outlet
> gets
> hot (which is normal of course). But when the cold is run, the hot water
> backs through the WH, making the cold inlet get hot.
>
> So what could make hot water come backwards through the cold inlet, and
> then throughout the rest of the cold system?
>
> The only way I can think to fix it is to put a check valve in the cold
> inlet, but it doesn't ease my mind any.
>

Hi Mike,
A few questions:

1. Is there a hot water return system of any kind?
2. What is the routing of the CW service?
3. Is there any possibility of a cross-apartment cross connection?
4. Have you checked the dip tube?
5. Have you shut down the cold side of the water heater and confirmed that
the cw entry is on the right side and that all the hot side openings are
dead?

Please answer each question to the best of your ability.

Bob Wheatley

Jeff Wisnia

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

Mike Grooms wrote:

> OK Guys,
>
> Here's one that's got me puzzled. It's in a one bath, one kitchen
> apartment that has it's own WH. The bathroom was piped by the former owner,
> so anything is possible (it's the same place that almost killed me two
> months ago). All the faucets are two handle, and there's no laundry.
>
> The problem is that the cold water never gets cold. It's always lukewarm
> or hot. I thought it'd to be a simple cross connection somewhere, but it's
> more complicated. Here's what happens. When I go to the WH, and hold the
> pipes when the hot is run, the cold inlet gets cold, and the hot outlet gets
> hot (which is normal of course). But when the cold is run, the hot water
> backs through the WH, making the cold inlet get hot.
>
> So what could make hot water come backwards through the cold inlet, and
> then throughout the rest of the cold system?
>
> The only way I can think to fix it is to put a check valve in the cold
> inlet, but it doesn't ease my mind any.
>
>
Any chance someone hid an expansion tank on the hot side of the WH and
its pushing water back when system pressure drops while a cold faucet is
open? (A very WAG, I know...)

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Ned Flanders

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

sounds like a cross connection caused by a bad tempering valve on a toilet
or something like that.
when givin equal pressure drop hot will fight its way to front of line.

"Jeff Wisnia" <jwisnia@conversent.net> wrote in message
news:_padnTZpaJu317_eRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> Mike Grooms wrote:
>
> Any chance someone hid an expansion tank on the hot side of the WH and its
> pushing water back when system pressure drops while a cold faucet is open?
> (A very WAG, I know...)
>
> Jeff
> --
> Jeffry Wisnia
>
> (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
>
> "Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Mark Monson

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

Mike Grooms wrote:
> OK Guys,
>
> Here's one that's got me puzzled. It's in a one bath, one kitchen
> apartment that has it's own WH. The bathroom was piped by the former owner,
> so anything is possible (it's the same place that almost killed me two
> months ago). All the faucets are two handle, and there's no laundry.
>
> The problem is that the cold water never gets cold. It's always lukewarm
> or hot. I thought it'd to be a simple cross connection somewhere, but it's
> more complicated. Here's what happens. When I go to the WH, and hold the
> pipes when the hot is run, the cold inlet gets cold, and the hot outlet gets
> hot (which is normal of course). But when the cold is run, the hot water
> backs through the WH, making the cold inlet get hot.
>
> So what could make hot water come backwards through the cold inlet, and
> then throughout the rest of the cold system?
>
> The only way I can think to fix it is to put a check valve in the cold
> inlet, but it doesn't ease my mind any.

I'd suspect the happy homeowner piped cold to hot under the bathroom.
Because of different hot/cold pressure drops in the piping this could
work out just as you describe. Water will take the path of least
resistance. This could mean that all the hot comes through the water
heater undiluted by cold but open a cold faucet and half the water comes
backwards through the water heater from the cross connection.

MM

Ned Flanders

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

try to isolate the toilet if you can't get to the pipes, otherwise crawl
under near toilet and look for tempering valve. id start by looking at all
my tempering valves.

"Mark Monson" <mmonson@ttech.net> wrote in message
news:UmCUe.2$Hj7.1@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> Mike Grooms wrote:
>
> I'd suspect the happy homeowner piped cold to hot under the bathroom.
> Because of different hot/cold pressure drops in the piping this could work
> out just as you describe. Water will take the path of least resistance.
> This could mean that all the hot comes through the water heater undiluted
> by cold but open a cold faucet and half the water comes backwards through
> the water heater from the cross connection.
>
> MM

Mike Grooms

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

Guys,

I'm sure it'll make sense when I finally figure it out. There must be a
cross connection somehow-somewhere. There's no laundry, nor tempering
valve, nor single handle faucets. It's city water, and not a well, meaning
the pressure is consistent and strong. I think the dip tube is OK, since
there's sufficient hot water available.

What I find really confusing is that the water is backing through the
water heater when running the cold, and yet when the hot is used it's not
affected. I'll let you know when I solve it. Thanks for the suggestions.

Ned Flanders

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

what about the shower valve isn't it a tempering valve??
last time this happen to be it was a becon valve hidden in floor under
toilet.

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:8ce6b$4324e9a2$d8c48df5$32320@FUSE.NET...
> Guys,
>
> I'm sure it'll make sense when I finally figure it out. There must be a
> cross connection somehow-somewhere. There's no laundry, nor tempering
> valve, nor single handle faucets. It's city water, and not a well,
> meaning
> the pressure is consistent and strong. I think the dip tube is OK, since
> there's sufficient hot water available.
>
> What I find really confusing is that the water is backing through the
> water heater when running the cold, and yet when the hot is used it's not
> affected. I'll let you know when I solve it. Thanks for the suggestions.
>
>

Mike Grooms

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

"Ned Flanders"

The shower valve is a two handle valve, so a cross connection couldn't
happen without me knowing it. I also checked the toilet, and I can tell by
the layout and visible pipes that there's no tempering valve.

The former owner piped in a new shower and sink. It's probably in there
somewhere.

I'm not sure if I'm going to start tearing walls out, or if I'll just put
a check valve on the WH.

Mark Monson

2005-09-13, 8:21 pm

Mike Grooms wrote:
> "Ned Flanders"
>
> The shower valve is a two handle valve, so a cross connection couldn't
> happen without me knowing it. I also checked the toilet, and I can tell by
> the layout and visible pipes that there's no tempering valve.
>
> The former owner piped in a new shower and sink. It's probably in there
> somewhere.
>
> I'm not sure if I'm going to start tearing walls out, or if I'll just put
> a check valve on the WH.
>
>

Shut the cold valve on the water heater and then turn on each hot tap in
turn to see if any cold comes through the suspected mystery
cross-connection.

MM

Mike Grooms

2005-09-14, 12:21 am

"Mark Monson" <
>
> Shut the cold valve on the water heater and then turn on each hot tap in
> turn to see if any cold comes through the suspected mystery
> cross-connection.

I already did that, and the hot seems normal. See why I'm a little
stumped!

Ned Flanders

2005-09-14, 9:21 am

is there a washing machine??
it is rare but a stuck solenoid can cause this.

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:142fc$43278e8c$d84432b5$29164@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Mark Monson" <
>
> I already did that, and the hot seems normal. See why I'm a little
> stumped!
>
>

Mike Grooms

2005-09-14, 10:21 am

"Ned Flanders"

There's no laundry, which was one of the first things I thought of. I'm
pretty sure it's that some moron just connected a cold to a hot when the
bathroom was remodeled. The backing through the WH is what's confusing.
The reason I'm surprised is that I'd think that when, for example, the cold
is turned on in the kitchen, that there'd still be pressure on the cold side
of the WH that'd be pushing in opposition to the hot. It's wierd.

Ned Flanders

2005-09-14, 3:21 pm

draw it out on paper and pretend you have a vacuum cleaner on the end of
every supply.
follow the easiest path to water heater if you draw a cross connection.
remember the hot is going to be higher pressure than the cold so it will go
first. The kitchen sink being weird I assume means the sinks cold supply is
next to the incoming water which is high pressure. you would think that cold
would just zip right out the cold faucet. However at the tee where your
water main comes in will have slightly greater pressure on the downstream
side pushing back against the water main; so when you turn on the sinks cold
it sucks from the downstream side of the tee not the incoming main, which
could cause reverse flow in the wh caused by venturi effect. the tee where
you have the cross connection becomes the new water main for the cold supply
to the house because it is the opening to the cold system with the highest
pressure. On city water i install a check valve on the cold supply to wh
then a thermal expansion tank.

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:d5c72$43281c95$d8c4bafb$16197@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Ned Flanders"
>
> There's no laundry, which was one of the first things I thought of. I'm
> pretty sure it's that some moron just connected a cold to a hot when the
> bathroom was remodeled. The backing through the WH is what's confusing.
> The reason I'm surprised is that I'd think that when, for example, the
> cold
> is turned on in the kitchen, that there'd still be pressure on the cold
> side
> of the WH that'd be pushing in opposition to the hot. It's wierd.
>
>

Bob Wheatley

2005-09-14, 6:21 pm

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:d5c72$43281c95$d8c4bafb$16197@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Ned Flanders"
>
> There's no laundry, which was one of the first things I thought of. I'm
> pretty sure it's that some moron just connected a cold to a hot when the
> bathroom was remodeled. The backing through the WH is what's confusing.
> The reason I'm surprised is that I'd think that when, for example, the
> cold
> is turned on in the kitchen, that there'd still be pressure on the cold
> side
> of the WH that'd be pushing in opposition to the hot. It's wierd.
>

I assume there's no hot water return system, right?
If not, and by turning off the the cold supply to the water heater you only
have cold water to the cold side of all the fixtures your problem is almost
certainly pressure that is being created by the heating of the water.
Your maost practical recourse is to put in a check valve on the cold supply
of the heater and an expansion tank on the hot side.

Keep us posted how this turns out.

Bob Wheatley

Mike Grooms

2005-09-14, 6:21 pm

"Ned Flanders"

Some of us have mentioned that the hot water will have more pressure than
the cold. If there's no check valve on the WH, why would this be true. It
doesn't make sense to me.

Mike

Bob Wheatley

2005-09-14, 6:21 pm

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:2a126$432888ce$d8c4b9c5$9876@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Ned Flanders"
>
> Some of us have mentioned that the hot water will have more pressure than
> the cold. If there's no check valve on the WH, why would this be true.
> It
> doesn't make sense to me.
>
> Mike
>
>

Just because there's no check valve does not mean that the pressure is not
still being created. It just gets pushed back up into the cold side. The hot
side is a closed system so it cannot acept "anything" as long as the
fixtures are not in use.

Bob Wheatley

Ned Flanders

2005-09-14, 7:21 pm

expansion tank on cold inlet NOT on hot outlet. check valve right before
expansion tank.

"Bob Wheatley" <xmaster.dancer@directway.com> wrote in message
news:11ih24ako8o4bb5@corp.supernews.com...
> "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:d5c72$43281c95$d8c4bafb$16197@FUSE.NET...
>
>
> I assume there's no hot water return system, right?
> If not, and by turning off the the cold supply to the water heater you
> only have cold water to the cold side of all the fixtures your problem is
> almost certainly pressure that is being created by the heating of the
> water.
> Your maost practical recourse is to put in a check valve on the cold
> supply of the heater and an expansion tank on the hot side.
>
> Keep us posted how this turns out.
>
> Bob Wheatley
>
>

Ned Flanders

2005-09-14, 7:21 pm

the expansion starts there so does the pressure.

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:2a126$432888ce$d8c4b9c5$9876@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Ned Flanders"
>
> Some of us have mentioned that the hot water will have more pressure than
> the cold. If there's no check valve on the WH, why would this be true.
> It
> doesn't make sense to me.
>
> Mike
>
>

Bob Wheatley

2005-09-14, 7:21 pm

"Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:XG0We.22494$Qv6.22181@trndny04...[color=darkred]
> expansion tank on cold inlet NOT on hot outlet. check valve right before
> expansion tank.
>
>
>
> "Bob Wheatley" <xmaster.dancer@directway.com> wrote in message
> news:11ih24ako8o4bb5@corp.supernews.com...

Yeah, that was poorly worded.
I meant on the "hot water heater" side of the check valve.
I should drink a couple of beers before I start typing so my brain don't
outrun my fingers...:> )

Bob Wheatley

Ned Flanders

2005-09-14, 7:21 pm

i figured thats what you ment just making sure.

"Bob Wheatley" <xmaster.dancer@directway.com> wrote in message
news:11ih70spi9nun3a@corp.supernews.com...
> "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:XG0We.22494$Qv6.22181@trndny04...
>
>
> Yeah, that was poorly worded.
> I meant on the "hot water heater" side of the check valve.
> I should drink a couple of beers before I start typing so my brain don't
> outrun my fingers...:> )
>
>
> Bob Wheatley
>
>

PipeDown

2005-09-14, 7:21 pm

So the water never gets cold. You've compared this to the water temp coming
out of the city supply so you know it could be cold right. And this
happens under static (no flow) conditions. Shouldn't have any gravity fed
convection unless there is a cross connection and you ruled that out
already.

Maybe the cold pipe is being heated by a source other than injection of
heated water. Does the pipe run through a hot space (like an attic) or a
heat sink (concrete slab or wall exposed to direct sunlight) or is it
directly in contact with the hot pipe or another warm surface?

I bet on an unintentional solar heat sink.

Just my thoughts. (If it don't look like a duck, maybe it really isn't a
duck)

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:2a126$432888ce$d8c4b9c5$9876@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Ned Flanders"
>
> Some of us have mentioned that the hot water will have more pressure than
> the cold. If there's no check valve on the WH, why would this be true.
> It
> doesn't make sense to me.
>
> Mike
>
>

PipeDown

2005-09-14, 7:21 pm

More to add....

When did the owner do the add on plumbing? Was it after last winter? If I
am right about an unintentional solar collector, the pipe will be
susceptable to freezing this winter. If the problem is seasonal, this also
supports my idea. Add the check valve (since it is eaier than the
alternatives), if it doesn't improve significantly you may be back in
December.

"PipeDown" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:F51We.10406$Wd7.9720@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> So the water never gets cold. You've compared this to the water temp
> coming out of the city supply so you know it could be cold right. And
> this happens under static (no flow) conditions. Shouldn't have any
> gravity fed convection unless there is a cross connection and you ruled
> that out already.
>
> Maybe the cold pipe is being heated by a source other than injection of
> heated water. Does the pipe run through a hot space (like an attic) or a
> heat sink (concrete slab or wall exposed to direct sunlight) or is it
> directly in contact with the hot pipe or another warm surface?
>
> I bet on an unintentional solar heat sink.
>
> Just my thoughts. (If it don't look like a duck, maybe it really isn't a
> duck)
>
>
>
> "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:2a126$432888ce$d8c4b9c5$9876@FUSE.NET...
>
>

PipeDown

2005-09-14, 7:21 pm

nevermind, I just reread the OP more carefully. The part about the cold
inlet getting hot proves my theory wrong

"PipeDown" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Pd1We.10410$Wd7.5163@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> More to add....
>
> When did the owner do the add on plumbing? Was it after last winter? If
> I am right about an unintentional solar collector, the pipe will be
> susceptable to freezing this winter. If the problem is seasonal, this
> also supports my idea. Add the check valve (since it is eaier than the
> alternatives), if it doesn't improve significantly you may be back in
> December.
>
>
>
> "PipeDown" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:F51We.10406$Wd7.9720@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>

PipeDown

2005-09-14, 9:21 pm

Allow me to try again (Me; a hack)

Does the cold supply from the city flow past the hot WH at a Tee close to
the inlet. If there is a restriction, you could be seeing a venturi effect
which generates negative pressure at the cold inlet when cold water runs
across it. Is the pipe copper or galv steel. I have a restriction in my
hot pipe near the kitchen sink that causes a loud cavitation in the pipe at
the tee when the water is run at full blast (so much negative pressure a
vacuum bubble forms then collapses sending a pressure wave down the pipe, or
at least that's my theory for now). That pipe is galv steel and the
restriction is certainly rust, I'm not sure how a copper pipe would develop
such a restriction or even if it could.

Restriction inside T creates a venturi that causes a negative pressure that
sucks hot water out of WH and mixes with cold.

City cold > -------T------- to house ->
|
|
WH- inlet

Plausible, especially if the Tee is positioned very near or below the top of
the tank (like in some tight spaces). If the distance from the Tee to the
WH is long or has a substantial vertical climb, this is less likely but
still possible.

In any case the check valves should do the trick but replacing the tee would
improve flow. Adding check valves is like changing the design. It is much
more satisfying if you can fix the problem without changing the design, then
you know you were right and you know you understood the problem.

Running with this idea, have you made any repairs that have improved flow
rate downstream of this hypothetical Tee? Increased output flow rate but
the same input pressure would make it easier for a venturi to develop
enough negative pressure to cause a reversal of flow. Did the problem
develop gradually (slow buildup) or suddenly (as a result of an unrelated
repair or dislodged rust chunk moving to the tee like a stroke)

I bet if you run the cold at one tap and hot at another tap, you can get it
to flow in the right direction at the WH. If the restriction is a loose
particle, try turning off the city water and opening an outside hose bib,
then run water backward through the system and try to flush (don't know
where you get the water though since I had you turn it off, maybe a friendly
neighbor or a recirculation pump). In my house it would require fitting an
adapter to a sink and running a hose to the neighbor then opening the front
hose bib then running water first with the hot open then with the cold open.
This way I can flush all 3 ports on the Tee in the reverse direction. While
this works great on sprinkler systems, I have not actually tried this on a
house, its just an idea.

I way overexplained this if you are already familiar with the concept.

"Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:z21We.22546$Qv6.14345@trndny04...
>i figured thats what you ment just making sure.
>
> "Bob Wheatley" <xmaster.dancer@directway.com> wrote in message
> news:11ih70spi9nun3a@corp.supernews.com...
>
>

Mike Grooms

2005-09-14, 11:21 pm

"Ned Flanders" <

I just wonder, really, how much actual water will push back through the
cold from the WH. I can't imagine it being more than just a little.

The new suspect is that the apartment shares a wall in common with
another apartment. I'll do a little tearing apart and let everyone know.

Ned Flanders

2005-09-15, 7:21 am

just reread whole thread and man you are ignorant. you still have not
explained any of your points.
you demanded real science and it was provided.
Why cant you provide the same? answer: because you are not smart enough.

"PipeDown" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%13We.10242$4P5.911@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Allow me to try again (Me; a hack)
>
> Does the cold supply from the city flow past the hot WH at a Tee close to
> the inlet. If there is a restriction, you could be seeing a venturi
> effect which generates negative pressure at the cold inlet when cold water
> runs across it. Is the pipe copper or galv steel. I have a restriction
> in my hot pipe near the kitchen sink that causes a loud cavitation in the
> pipe at the tee when the water is run at full blast (so much negative
> pressure a vacuum bubble forms then collapses sending a pressure wave down
> the pipe, or at least that's my theory for now). That pipe is galv steel
> and the restriction is certainly rust, I'm not sure how a copper pipe
> would develop such a restriction or even if it could.
>
> Restriction inside T creates a venturi that causes a negative pressure
> that sucks hot water out of WH and mixes with cold.
>
> City cold > -------T------- to house ->
> |
> |
> WH- inlet
>
> Plausible, especially if the Tee is positioned very near or below the top
> of the tank (like in some tight spaces). If the distance from the Tee to
> the WH is long or has a substantial vertical climb, this is less likely
> but still possible.
>
> In any case the check valves should do the trick but replacing the tee
> would improve flow. Adding check valves is like changing the design. It
> is much more satisfying if you can fix the problem without changing the
> design, then you know you were right and you know you understood the
> problem.
>
> Running with this idea, have you made any repairs that have improved flow
> rate downstream of this hypothetical Tee? Increased output flow rate but
> the same input pressure would make it easier for a venturi to develop
> enough negative pressure to cause a reversal of flow. Did the problem
> develop gradually (slow buildup) or suddenly (as a result of an unrelated
> repair or dislodged rust chunk moving to the tee like a stroke)
>
> I bet if you run the cold at one tap and hot at another tap, you can get
> it to flow in the right direction at the WH. If the restriction is a
> loose particle, try turning off the city water and opening an outside hose
> bib, then run water backward through the system and try to flush (don't
> know where you get the water though since I had you turn it off, maybe a
> friendly neighbor or a recirculation pump). In my house it would require
> fitting an adapter to a sink and running a hose to the neighbor then
> opening the front hose bib then running water first with the hot open then
> with the cold open. This way I can flush all 3 ports on the Tee in the
> reverse direction. While this works great on sprinkler systems, I have not
> actually tried this on a house, its just an idea.
>
> I way overexplained this if you are already familiar with the concept.
>
>
>
> "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:z21We.22546$Qv6.14345@trndny04...
>
>

Ned Flanders

2005-09-15, 7:21 am

oops wrong thread lol guess im not too smart either hehe
"Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:QIbWe.5758$sa6.4247@trndny06...
> just reread whole thread and man you are ignorant. you still have not
> explained any of your points.
> you demanded real science and it was provided.
> Why cant you provide the same? answer: because you are not smart enough.
>
>
>
> "PipeDown" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:%13We.10242$4P5.911@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>

Mike Grooms

2005-09-15, 9:21 am

"Mike Grooms"

And here's the weird part...I was there to see this actually happen, and
the lady who lives in the apartment verified that it's been happening for a
while, but for the past week, it hasn't happened again. I promise that when
I was there, you'd run the cold, and warm water would come out, and I could
tell from putting my hands on the WH pipes, that it was backing up through
the cold inlet.

Now, for the past week (basically from the day after I was there) things
have been just fine. I am mystified, except that I figured out that her
bathroom shares a wall with another apartment. It just doesn't make sense.

My question is this. Since I was there, and the problem stopped the next
day, how much do I charge?

Ned Flanders

2005-09-15, 1:21 pm

you have also consulted her on what it could be and what it will take to be
sure.
how long were you there?
mabye like 150-200 bucks.

btw that sounds more like a tempering valve

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:3ce8c$43295e97$d8c489e1$22556@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Mike Grooms"
>
> And here's the weird part...I was there to see this actually happen, and
> the lady who lives in the apartment verified that it's been happening for
> a
> while, but for the past week, it hasn't happened again. I promise that
> when
> I was there, you'd run the cold, and warm water would come out, and I
> could
> tell from putting my hands on the WH pipes, that it was backing up through
> the cold inlet.
>
> Now, for the past week (basically from the day after I was there) things
> have been just fine. I am mystified, except that I figured out that her
> bathroom shares a wall with another apartment. It just doesn't make
> sense.
>
> My question is this. Since I was there, and the problem stopped the next
> day, how much do I charge?
>
>

PipeDown

2005-09-15, 4:21 pm

Agh, Ahh, ek------ arg &%# Oop.................. nevermind (so the wrong
flame but it could have gone with my false start just above)

"Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:nJbWe.16862$626.15458@trndny08...
> oops wrong thread lol guess im not too smart either hehe
> "Ned Flanders" <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:QIbWe.5758$sa6.4247@trndny06...
>
>

PipeDown

2005-09-15, 4:21 pm

You're diagnostic procedures seem to have knocked whatever it was loose. It
will probably come back later and so will you. Charge her now for a little
labor but let her know that a perminant fix is likely to include the check
valves which will prevent the symptom regardless of the real cause.

Still wondering, copper or galv steel ?

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:3ce8c$43295e97$d8c489e1$22556@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Mike Grooms"
>
> And here's the weird part...I was there to see this actually happen, and
> the lady who lives in the apartment verified that it's been happening for
> a
> while, but for the past week, it hasn't happened again. I promise that
> when
> I was there, you'd run the cold, and warm water would come out, and I
> could
> tell from putting my hands on the WH pipes, that it was backing up through
> the cold inlet.
>
> Now, for the past week (basically from the day after I was there) things
> have been just fine. I am mystified, except that I figured out that her
> bathroom shares a wall with another apartment. It just doesn't make
> sense.
>
> My question is this. Since I was there, and the problem stopped the next
> day, how much do I charge?
>
>

Mike Grooms

2005-09-15, 5:21 pm

Gosh Guys!

It was just a joke. I wouldn't charge in a case like this. Geez...

Snowbound

2005-10-25, 9:21 am

I had this situation once. The previous owners of our house converted the
heat from electric forced air to oil. They also converted the electric HWT
to feed the water through the new boiler. This made the hot water extremely
hot and we have young kids so I put in one of those thermostatic mixing
valves which feeds a little cold water into the hot. After a few years the
back flow preventer stuck open. It was noticable wit the bathroom sink
that's directly above the connection.

"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:3ce8c$43295e97$d8c489e1$22556@FUSE.NET...
>
> "Mike Grooms"
>
> And here's the weird part...I was there to see this actually happen, and
> the lady who lives in the apartment verified that it's been happening for
> a
> while, but for the past week, it hasn't happened again. I promise that
> when
> I was there, you'd run the cold, and warm water would come out, and I
> could
> tell from putting my hands on the WH pipes, that it was backing up through
> the cold inlet.
>
> Now, for the past week (basically from the day after I was there) things
> have been just fine. I am mystified, except that I figured out that her
> bathroom shares a wall with another apartment. It just doesn't make
> sense.
>
> My question is this. Since I was there, and the problem stopped the next
> day, how much do I charge?
>
>

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