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Home > Archive > Plumbing forum > June 2005 > M versus L copper tubing
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M versus L copper tubing
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| OrkoPolo 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| I went to the local Home Depot to get all the things that I needed to
install new copper piping to my new shower/tub valve I bought
yesterday. Told the guy what I was doing, showed him my sketch, and he
happily sold me 20 feet of 1/2" copper tubing with the neccesary
couplings. I mentioned to him in the store that I was amazed that the
stuff in the rolls was 4x more expensive than the rigid 1/2" that he
sold me. He smirkily said "yeah, isn't that something?"
When I got home I researched the difference, and found that he had sold
me 1/2" M rated copper (under $5 per 10 feet), versus the other 1/2" L
rated ($20+ for 10 feet) that I had noticed. The sites that I read
online about the stuff say to only use the thin wall (M) for vents and
other "light duty" piping, and to use medium wall (L) for water
supplies.
So am I out the money I spent on the M piping, since I already cut the
stuff? This is a house that I'm finishing up to sell next month, but I
would hate to think that the new owner is going to have problems soon
after... What are your thoughts on using the M rated copper on supply
lines to the shower/tub valve and the lines from the valve into the
showerhead/tub spout?
Oh, and I checked the copper that was already in the walls of this 21
year-old house that has never had a leak. You guessed it... M rated.
Hence, my dilemma :-)
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| The $20 for 10ft of copper was probably the price for soft copper which is
sold either by the foot or the whole roll itself.
The average price for a 10ft length of rigid 1/2" L copper should be around
$7.50
M copper is fine for your shower. One of the benefits of L copper because of
the thickness, is that it helps to absorb more sound.
Nick
"OrkoPolo" <orko.polo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115968972.261461.21260@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
quote:
>I went to the local Home Depot to get all the things that I needed to
> install new copper piping to my new shower/tub valve I bought
> yesterday. Told the guy what I was doing, showed him my sketch, and he
> happily sold me 20 feet of 1/2" copper tubing with the neccesary
> couplings. I mentioned to him in the store that I was amazed that the
> stuff in the rolls was 4x more expensive than the rigid 1/2" that he
> sold me. He smirkily said "yeah, isn't that something?"
>
> When I got home I researched the difference, and found that he had sold
> me 1/2" M rated copper (under $5 per 10 feet), versus the other 1/2" L
> rated ($20+ for 10 feet) that I had noticed. The sites that I read
> online about the stuff say to only use the thin wall (M) for vents and
> other "light duty" piping, and to use medium wall (L) for water
> supplies.
>
> So am I out the money I spent on the M piping, since I already cut the
> stuff? This is a house that I'm finishing up to sell next month, but I
> would hate to think that the new owner is going to have problems soon
> after... What are your thoughts on using the M rated copper on supply
> lines to the shower/tub valve and the lines from the valve into the
> showerhead/tub spout?
>
> Oh, and I checked the copper that was already in the walls of this 21
> year-old house that has never had a leak. You guessed it... M rated.
> Hence, my dilemma :-)
>
| |
| OrkoPolo 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| Thanks nick,
I was more worried about failures than sound, so I'll go with the M
copper. Thanks for the price comparison also. I hate going in to buy
stuff that I have no idea what the average price should be... makes me
feel like my wife is at the car dealer ;-)
Orko
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| Ned Flanders 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| nick is an idiot.
You always use L on domestic, unless you are a cheap loser. Sound is NOT
the reason. You must not have very hard water if your M is fine after many
many years. I have seen M rot out in 5 years. You have made a common
do-it-yourself mistake. Never take plumbing advice from a home cheapo
reject.
You are pretty cheap or really stupid if you are willing to pay more for 1
month of cable than you are on your pipes which will be there for many
months.
"OrkoPolo" <orko.polo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116000401.199722.89350@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Thanks nick,
>
> I was more worried about failures than sound, so I'll go with the M
> copper. Thanks for the price comparison also. I hate going in to buy
> stuff that I have no idea what the average price should be... makes me
> feel like my wife is at the car dealer ;-)
>
> Orko
>
| |
| OrkoPolo 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| I guess I'm a really cheap, stupid, loser then. Wait, you must be
talking to Nick ;-)
Anyway, the pipes are in and I'm happy enough with it to sell my house.
If it leaks in 5-10 years, the house will be 26-31 years old and the
new owners will probably not be too surprised at that point. Since the
whole house is plumbed with M, it doesn't make too much sense to make
my 6' of pipe to last forever only to sell it with 98% M piping anyway.
I'll keep your advice in mind though when I do any future work. Thanks!
| |
| Mike Grooms 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
|
"Ned Flanders"
Ummm....type m copper is the standard around here for water lines.
| |
| Ned Flanders 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| I would never use m on a well
4 out of 5 here use L
"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:1cb4d$4286c217$453d9546$17080@FUSE.NET...
quote:
>
> "Ned Flanders"
>
> Ummm....type m copper is the standard around here for water lines.
>
>
| |
| Red Jacket 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| I just walked in on this thread.
I am shocked SHOCKED to see all my bright buddies
here replying as they have !
Read your codes !
'' M'' is for radiant heating. Its cheaper as its a thinner wall.
Read some copper pipe web sites !
'' L '' is for potable water. Ok ?
No problem ...eh ?
Heh...Ok, what if the home is inspected before you sell it ?
It won't pass inspection and the hell with it if my code is not in
your jurisdiction. Mine was made by the US Gov. during WW II and
can be used in any court.
Be ready to pay for a pro to come and replace all the copper in your
home and to open it for complete plumming inspection.
You will have to replace M with L or drop the price for repair
accordingly.
Yeppers, you could of got your money back. The guy mislead you
on the copper and the codes.
Just because there is a lack of enforcement in your jurisdiction
does not make it law.
Yo ! What about all the past posts that everyone claims has *pinholes
in the copper ?
I never seen pinholes, but I do understand why you have it.
Rolled copper is *most likely to be type '' K '' for underground and is
a heavy walled pipe.
M has red writing on it a continuous line on the pipe.
L has blue.
You can feel the difference just by touch.
There is hard and soft copper, you know that even type K soft if
run as a vertical line it must terminate before a change of direction
fitting
is used.
You know of DWV copper.
All copper is color coded just to prevent what
this guy did.
( Where is Hot ? You people are back sliding. AW come back and
make these Plummers fly right.)
"OrkoPolo" <orko.polo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115968972.261461.21260@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> I went to the local Home Depot to get all the things that I needed to
> install new copper piping to my new shower/tub valve I bought
> yesterday. Told the guy what I was doing, showed him my sketch, and he
> happily sold me 20 feet of 1/2" copper tubing with the neccesary
> couplings. I mentioned to him in the store that I was amazed that the
> stuff in the rolls was 4x more expensive than the rigid 1/2" that he
> sold me. He smirkily said "yeah, isn't that something?"
>
> When I got home I researched the difference, and found that he had sold
> me 1/2" M rated copper (under $5 per 10 feet), versus the other 1/2" L
> rated ($20+ for 10 feet) that I had noticed. The sites that I read
> online about the stuff say to only use the thin wall (M) for vents and
> other "light duty" piping, and to use medium wall (L) for water
> supplies.
>
> So am I out the money I spent on the M piping, since I already cut the
> stuff? This is a house that I'm finishing up to sell next month, but I
> would hate to think that the new owner is going to have problems soon
> after... What are your thoughts on using the M rated copper on supply
> lines to the shower/tub valve and the lines from the valve into the
> showerhead/tub spout?
>
> Oh, and I checked the copper that was already in the walls of this 21
> year-old house that has never had a leak. You guessed it... M rated.
> Hence, my dilemma :-)
>
| |
| OrkoPolo 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| Red,
I went and read some copper pipe web sites as you suggested and got
really confused. Some say that L is suggested, others say that L is
required, and others say that M is the minimum required for potable
water. Ack! I'll try and post this on another board and get some more
feedback
See:
http://www.copper.org/resources/pub...be_handbook.pdf
which I found on copper.org, the CDA website. They say to use M rated
if I'm reading it right. Ugh. The piping is in, tested and
sheetrocked. I'm having a real hard time thinking that I'm going to
have to go in there again to sweat new type L piping onto the existing
M rated copper? I would hate to fail inspection, but I'm not sure how
they would be able to see it since its all behind sheetrock and my
house is sitting on a cement slab with no crawlspace.
Thanks for all your help. Any other viewpoints would be appreciated.
| |
| Ned Flanders 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| If my reply was not clear enough you are a fucking moron.
You had another person repeat what I told you.
A simple search of what could happen would answer this question for
yourself.
Yeah that a great idea, go post on some other board. some other board...you
mean group.
Please use grey plastic for all your water lines, get everything at home
depot and radio shack piss head.
"OrkoPolo" <orko.polo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117045550.528325.323890@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Red,
>
> I went and read some copper pipe web sites as you suggested and got
> really confused. Some say that L is suggested, others say that L is
> required, and others say that M is the minimum required for potable
> water. Ack! I'll try and post this on another board and get some more
> feedback
>
> See:
> http://www.copper.org/resources/pub...be_handbook.pdf
> which I found on copper.org, the CDA website. They say to use M rated
> if I'm reading it right. Ugh. The piping is in, tested and
> sheetrocked. I'm having a real hard time thinking that I'm going to
> have to go in there again to sweat new type L piping onto the existing
> M rated copper? I would hate to fail inspection, but I'm not sure how
> they would be able to see it since its all behind sheetrock and my
> house is sitting on a cement slab with no crawlspace.
>
> Thanks for all your help. Any other viewpoints would be appreciated.
>
| |
| Red Jacket 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| M copper is FORBIDDEN for domestic potable water.
All codes come from the original code made by the US gov.
around WW II.
Codes are laws.
You can't win in court if you stick type M in for potable water.
"OrkoPolo" <orko.polo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117045550.528325.323890@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Red,
>
> I went and read some copper pipe web sites as you suggested and got
> really confused. Some say that L is suggested, others say that L is
> required, and others say that M is the minimum required for potable
> water. Ack! I'll try and post this on another board and get some more
> feedback
>
> See:
> http://www.copper.org/resources/pub...be_handbook.pdf
> which I found on copper.org, the CDA website. They say to use M rated
> if I'm reading it right. Ugh. The piping is in, tested and
> sheetrocked. I'm having a real hard time thinking that I'm going to
> have to go in there again to sweat new type L piping onto the existing
> M rated copper? I would hate to fail inspection, but I'm not sure how
> they would be able to see it since its all behind sheetrock and my
> house is sitting on a cement slab with no crawlspace.
>
> Thanks for all your help. Any other viewpoints would be appreciated.
>
| |
| plumbguru2 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| On Thu, 26 May 2005 12:05:38 -0700, Red Jacket wrote
(in article <MpqdnaH14Py0tgvfRVn-tA@adelphia.com> ):
quote:
> M copper is FORBIDDEN for domestic potable water.
> All codes come from the original code made by the US gov.
> around WW II.
> Codes are laws.
> You can't win in court if you stick type M in for potable water.
Red Jacket,
I realize you think you know all the answers but you're wrong, wrong, WRONG!!
You'll get no argument that Type L is superior to Type M copper tube because
of the thicker wall.
However the Uniform Plumbing Code in Chapter 6, lists Type M copper as
suitable for potable water systems as long as it remains above ground. It has
been so since at least 1970
Am unfamiliar with requirements in other CURRENT codes but would be surprised
if they differed from what the Copper Development Association recommends,
which is Type M for ANY aboveground potable water installation.
Doug
| |
| Mike Grooms 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
|
"plumbguru2"
Thank you for restoring sanity. My faith is restored.
| |
| OrkoPolo 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| "Ned Flanders"
If my questions irritate you so much, then ignore them.
Orko
| |
| Red Jacket 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| I'm right. Read up on it. I'd dispute you in court.
Its the reason we see ' pinhole' posts only here.
Thicker is the reason.
Copper cannot be made hard by proper ( cheaper)
metallurgy means. Hammering & heat.
"plumbguru2" <plumbguru2salute@aol.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BEBBC1BB001ABA65F0407550@news.dslextreme.com...
quote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 12:05:38 -0700, Red Jacket wrote
> (in article <MpqdnaH14Py0tgvfRVn-tA@adelphia.com> ):
>
>
> Red Jacket,
>
> I realize you think you know all the answers but you're wrong, wrong,
WRONG!!
quote:
> You'll get no argument that Type L is superior to Type M copper tube
because
quote:
> of the thicker wall.
>
> However the Uniform Plumbing Code in Chapter 6, lists Type M copper as
> suitable for potable water systems as long as it remains above ground. It
has
quote:
> been so since at least 1970
>
> Am unfamiliar with requirements in other CURRENT codes but would be
surprised
quote:
> if they differed from what the Copper Development Association recommends,
> which is Type M for ANY aboveground potable water installation.
>
> Doug
>
| |
| Red Jacket 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
|
"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:f1925$42968933$d84448c3$18456@FUSE.NET...
quote:
>
> "plumbguru2"
>
> Thank you for restoring sanity. My faith is restored.
>
heh...time for a Prozac Mike.
quote:
>
| |
| Mike Grooms 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
|
"Red Jacket"
It's one thing to say "I'd dispute you in court," and another to say
"it's not legal." Type M is legal, and most contractors use it in
residential homes (at least around here) with no problems.
| |
| Red Jacket 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| Its simple Mike. They're wrong, you should* not be.
You're smarter than they are.
You're a Plummer.
Take some time and study copper. I agree its 17,000 years old and
not mined by the Ojibwa, but Mediterranean people in the lake
Superior region. Its been found in graves from that time, so its healing
power was known then. ( not proven tho.)
It not a weirdo theory, its real archeological history of the Mn. area.
No one can figure out the cu mines there.
Its a fascinating history anyway you look at it. Its good background info.
One book is '' Kitchi-Gummi.'' Few people ever looked at the copper trade.
I'll look up another professor of Archeology for you later.
"Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:827a1$4296fd9a$d84434dc$27832@FUSE.NET...
quote:
>
> "Red Jacket"
>
> It's one thing to say "I'd dispute you in court," and another to say
> "it's not legal." Type M is legal, and most contractors use it in
> residential homes (at least around here) with no problems.
>
>
| |
| Ned Flanders 2005-06-16, 2:28 pm |
| You need to keep the point in mind.
The main reason I use L in the house is to protect from hard water.
We all know that a well can change over time, and water quality can degrade.
You can use common sense to make your choice. Go do your research and save
yourself TONS of money for what?
Tell me why would you take the chance and only use M.
And don't say $$ because thats bullshit.
Obviously regions differ and this is what makes you sound so foolish telling
someone to use M to me. Here you would be an idiot to use the stuff on
domestic. In fact I have changed to PEX for some of theese places because
even blue has rotted out.
If you want to test your water first and you have local knowledge that the
water quality is ok then M is ok it will work. But sometimes M will not
be the best choice.
I make the "blanket statement" to use L.
You make the blanket statement to use Red and I say that is stupid and not
logical.
I am constantly reminded that plumbers can be really stupid when it comes to
chemistry.
IE the dielectric union debate and the total and absolute ignorance of
bonding.
This post is a stupid lib who fucked up trying to be cheap and is just
searching for the answer he wants to hear. He does not care about facts.
"Red Jacket" <RJ@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:H4qdnV2EKKj2rgrfRVn-2A@adelphia.com...
quote:
> Its simple Mike. They're wrong, you should* not be.
> You're smarter than they are.
> You're a Plummer.
>
> Take some time and study copper. I agree its 17,000 years old and
> not mined by the Ojibwa, but Mediterranean people in the lake
> Superior region. Its been found in graves from that time, so its healing
> power was known then. ( not proven tho.)
> It not a weirdo theory, its real archeological history of the Mn. area.
> No one can figure out the cu mines there.
>
> Its a fascinating history anyway you look at it. Its good background
> info.
> One book is '' Kitchi-Gummi.'' Few people ever looked at the copper trade.
> I'll look up another professor of Archeology for you later.
>
>
>
> "Mike Grooms" <ironmike@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:827a1$4296fd9a$d84434dc$27832@FUSE.NET...
>
>
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