Plumbing forum - Illinois code question

Author

Illinois code question

2005-08-25, 5:21 pm

I have a home that was built around 1940 and I am selling it.
The buyers had an inspector tell them that the drains from the sink are not
vented and he is correct. I don't believe when the home was built it was
required, and in my opinion it is not reasonable to expect an already
existing home to be brought up to code after the fact especially since the
walls would have to be torn out.
My plumber already said that the plumbing is in good working condition and
that it would be unreasonable to install vents after the fact.

Can anyone steer me or cite the Illinois plumbing code that states the
requirements for venting sink drains and if there is no requirement for it
to be vented since the house was built before the code was written?

CJ

Blackbeard

2005-08-26, 1:21 am

Well every fixture in your house MUST be vented. I don't have a copy
of the code as it was written in the 1940's, but I suspect that the
original code requirements would have definitely required that your
sinks be vented. Plumbing has been around for a long time. Proper
venting sorta falls under the plumbing 101/remedial deck. I find what
you say difficult to fathom.

All that aside, if your sinks need to be vented, they make air
admittance valves that can easily be installed without tearing out any
walls.

So just do what the inspector wants and install some air admittance
valves and be done with it. They cost about $25/each.

Any plumber in town can get your AAV's installed without tearing out
anything. So don't panic. This is not a big thing.

For the record, the inspector has already done his damage by
underscoring a problem that may not actually exist. He does not have
the right to require that you bring the house up to the current codes.
Codes have changed significantly over the last ten years (let alone
the changes that have happened over the last 70-years). If home
inspectors required that property be brought up to current code, most
of them would have to be torn down to the footing and re-built from
the ground up. (in fact a lot of them would need a new foot poured
too).

I seriously doubt that the sinks in your house have been working fine
for 70 years without a vent. I think this home inspector is flat-out
wrong. Before you pay your plumber anything at all, have him verify
the status of the vents. That doesn't sound right to me. If the
plumber determines that this home inspector is mistaken, don't pay the
plumber to do shit. Just slip him a few dollars for his time and ask
him to put it in writing. Then make a phone call to your friendly home
inspector and tell him to amend his report...or his erros and
omissions insurance just bought a house (the cost for chasing a buyer
away from the deal in the first place). Frankly...I find it very hard
to believe that not a single sink in your house is vented. It would
also suggest that NOTHING in your house is vented as most of us will
use the vent from the lavatory to wet-vent both the toilet and the
tub. This does not make sense to me.

More than likely, the plumber pulled a line off the same stack that
serves the toilet and bathtub and then tied it all back together in
the attic so you wouldn't have a dozen roof penetrations. Personally,
most of us like to tie our vents together. Most of us shoot for ONLY
ONE penetration.

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:45:03 GMT, "CJ" <chrisj@illicom.net> wrote:

>I have a home that was built around 1940 and I am selling it.
>The buyers had an inspector tell them that the drains from the sink are not
>vented and he is correct. I don't believe when the home was built it was
>required, and in my opinion it is not reasonable to expect an already
>existing home to be brought up to code after the fact especially since the
>walls would have to be torn out.
>My plumber already said that the plumbing is in good working condition and
>that it would be unreasonable to install vents after the fact.
>
>Can anyone steer me or cite the Illinois plumbing code that states the
>requirements for venting sink drains and if there is no requirement for it
>to be vented since the house was built before the code was written?
>
>CJ
>

Red Jacket

2005-08-27, 8:23 pm

In most cases you only need to bring a home
up to current code is if you are doing over
50% of new plumbing.

Check the building date again, Plumming codes
were written during WW II in Wash. DC.

CJ <chrisj@illicom.net> wrote in message
news:3dpPe.959$X25.93689@monger.newsread.com...
> I have a home that was built around 1940 and I am selling it.
> The buyers had an inspector tell them that the drains from the sink are
not
> vented and he is correct. I don't believe when the home was built it was
> required, and in my opinion it is not reasonable to expect an already
> existing home to be brought up to code after the fact especially since the
> walls would have to be torn out.
> My plumber already said that the plumbing is in good working condition and
> that it would be unreasonable to install vents after the fact.
>
> Can anyone steer me or cite the Illinois plumbing code that states the
> requirements for venting sink drains and if there is no requirement for it
> to be vented since the house was built before the code was written?
>
> CJ
>
>

2005-08-27, 8:23 pm

AAV's? Hmm...2 plumbers I had look at it said that there were indeed not
vented, but that I would have to rip walls out.
They didn't say anything about AAV's...I'll have to look into it.

"Blackbeard" <michael_curtis_young@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:qc1tg19roqttdd2t7uonlbup7bqeffbjt4@4ax.com...
> Well every fixture in your house MUST be vented. I don't have a copy
> of the code as it was written in the 1940's, but I suspect that the
> original code requirements would have definitely required that your
> sinks be vented. Plumbing has been around for a long time. Proper
> venting sorta falls under the plumbing 101/remedial deck. I find what
> you say difficult to fathom.
>
> All that aside, if your sinks need to be vented, they make air
> admittance valves that can easily be installed without tearing out any
> walls.
>
> So just do what the inspector wants and install some air admittance
> valves and be done with it. They cost about $25/each.
>
> Any plumber in town can get your AAV's installed without tearing out
> anything. So don't panic. This is not a big thing.
>
> For the record, the inspector has already done his damage by
> underscoring a problem that may not actually exist. He does not have
> the right to require that you bring the house up to the current codes.
> Codes have changed significantly over the last ten years (let alone
> the changes that have happened over the last 70-years). If home
> inspectors required that property be brought up to current code, most
> of them would have to be torn down to the footing and re-built from
> the ground up. (in fact a lot of them would need a new foot poured
> too).
>
> I seriously doubt that the sinks in your house have been working fine
> for 70 years without a vent. I think this home inspector is flat-out
> wrong. Before you pay your plumber anything at all, have him verify
> the status of the vents. That doesn't sound right to me. If the
> plumber determines that this home inspector is mistaken, don't pay the
> plumber to do shit. Just slip him a few dollars for his time and ask
> him to put it in writing. Then make a phone call to your friendly home
> inspector and tell him to amend his report...or his erros and
> omissions insurance just bought a house (the cost for chasing a buyer
> away from the deal in the first place). Frankly...I find it very hard
> to believe that not a single sink in your house is vented. It would
> also suggest that NOTHING in your house is vented as most of us will
> use the vent from the lavatory to wet-vent both the toilet and the
> tub. This does not make sense to me.
>
> More than likely, the plumber pulled a line off the same stack that
> serves the toilet and bathtub and then tied it all back together in
> the attic so you wouldn't have a dozen roof penetrations. Personally,
> most of us like to tie our vents together. Most of us shoot for ONLY
> ONE penetration.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:45:03 GMT, "CJ" <chrisj@illicom.net> wrote:
>
>

Blackbeard

2005-08-28, 11:21 am

That's a good point. Thanks for the update on when the codes were
actually written. That's one little fact I did not know. I know that
in my state, they didn't start enforcing ANY of the building codes at
all until 1976. So there are lots of older homes around here that
aren't built quite up-to-snuff.

However, it has been my experience that even without specific codes, a
lot of those older homes are built to a sort of tradesman code. Even
buildings that were built pre-code were built pretty well. However, I
don't agree with the people who roll their eyes and say "they don't
build 'em like they used to. I think it's a good thing that they
"don't build 'em like they used to."

I did own a 105-year old home over in the city. I was pretty
impressed. This damn thing was framed completely with old hard oak.
Just hammering nails into the joists to hang pipe was a major pain in
the XXX.

There getting better though. Watch for pine construction to fall away.
There is a new trend that is going to revolutionize the way homes are
built. Slowly but surely, it appears that metal-framed homes are
becoming more and more popular. In addition, they've started to build
homes where the walls are no framed in any traditional manner. The
studs are not exactly studs. Instead, they're welding up a skeletal
frame. It's a very cool development in the trades.

I'll be building a spec home with a friend in the next 6-months. The
plan is to do a cost comparison between welded metal vs. metal stud
framing vs. pine framing to see how the costs pan out along the entire
project. I'm pretty excited about it. Since it's spec, I'll have a
chance to try out some of my inventions on a real project.

As for the dude with the venting issue....SEND ME EMAIL. I'll take my
digital camera and email you a step-by-step and show you how to do
this thing yourself with the studor vents.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:20:27 -0700, "Red Jacket" <RedJacket@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>In most cases you only need to bring a home
>up to current code is if you are doing over
>50% of new plumbing.
>
>Check the building date again, Plumming codes
>were written during WW II in Wash. DC.
>
>CJ <chrisj@illicom.net> wrote in message
>news:3dpPe.959$X25.93689@monger.newsread.com...
>not
>

Red Jacket

2005-08-28, 12:21 pm

I often go to Canada, you never see any pine
2x4's, its all *metal studs.

Blackbeard <michael_curtis_young@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:83f3h15jgn8n2nk804tmjrbjr7bps670jg@4ax.com...
> That's a good point. Thanks for the update on when the codes were
> actually written. That's one little fact I did not know. I know that
> in my state, they didn't start enforcing ANY of the building codes at
> all until 1976. So there are lots of older homes around here that
> aren't built quite up-to-snuff.
>
> However, it has been my experience that even without specific codes, a
> lot of those older homes are built to a sort of tradesman code. Even
> buildings that were built pre-code were built pretty well. However, I
> don't agree with the people who roll their eyes and say "they don't
> build 'em like they used to. I think it's a good thing that they
> "don't build 'em like they used to."
>
> I did own a 105-year old home over in the city. I was pretty
> impressed. This damn thing was framed completely with old hard oak.
> Just hammering nails into the joists to hang pipe was a major pain in
> the XXX.
>
> There getting better though. Watch for pine construction to fall away.
> There is a new trend that is going to revolutionize the way homes are
> built. Slowly but surely, it appears that metal-framed homes are
> becoming more and more popular. In addition, they've started to build
> homes where the walls are no framed in any traditional manner. The
> studs are not exactly studs. Instead, they're welding up a skeletal
> frame. It's a very cool development in the trades.
>
> I'll be building a spec home with a friend in the next 6-months. The
> plan is to do a cost comparison between welded metal vs. metal stud
> framing vs. pine framing to see how the costs pan out along the entire
> project. I'm pretty excited about it. Since it's spec, I'll have a
> chance to try out some of my inventions on a real project.
>
>
> As for the dude with the venting issue....SEND ME EMAIL. I'll take my
> digital camera and email you a step-by-step and show you how to do
> this thing yourself with the studor vents.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:20:27 -0700, "Red Jacket" <RedJacket@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
was[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
it[color=darkred]
>

nobody

2005-08-28, 12:21 pm

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:43:38 GMT, Blackbeard
<michael_curtis_young@lycos.com> wrote:

>
>I'll be building a spec home with a friend in the next 6-months. The
>plan is to do a cost comparison between welded metal vs. metal stud
>framing vs. pine framing to see how the costs pan out along the entire
>project. I'm pretty excited about it. Since it's spec, I'll have a
>chance to try out some of my inventions on a real project.

Could you set up a web site with lots of pictures? I would love to
share your frustrations and progress with this project.

EFP

Ned Flanders

2005-08-28, 10:21 pm

I would think you are grandfathered but....

This is what I think the public should consider a time to call the local
code enforcer and make them come out free of charge and consult.

"Red Jacket" <RedJacket@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jcGdnQ7xEP__VozeRVn-rw@adelphia.com...
>I often go to Canada, you never see any pine
> 2x4's, its all *metal studs.
>
> Blackbeard <michael_curtis_young@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:83f3h15jgn8n2nk804tmjrbjr7bps670jg@4ax.com...
> was
> the
> and
> it
>
>

Blackbeard

2005-08-29, 12:21 am

Canada is a scary place. I never go to Canada. In the Weekly World
News they had an article where female sasquatch were working as
prostitutes in Canada. Only a Canadian would fuck a sasquatch. And
also if you watch South Park, Canadians have strange heads. So with
their strange heads and all that sasquatch fuckin' I don't know if I
trust Canadian construction.

On a more serious not, if they are using metal studs in canada
(personally I prefer metal-framed construction because the walls),
they are living in a colder environment than I have in North Carolina.
In regards to energy, wouldn't it make more sense to frame the outside
walls with 2x6 metal studs instead of 2x4? In fact, given the
additional spacing allowances for the wider studs, I would think it
would actually cost less to frame a house with 2x6 (or even 2x8 studs)
because they would not have to be framed on 16" centers. I think you
can frame with up to a 36" center if you use 2x8 studs. I don't have a
code book handy and I don't know off the top of my head. What is the
code on distance between studs if you frame with metal (2x4 vs 2x6
vs 2x8)?

And how many sasquatch prostitutes does it take to service a canuck
framing crew of 8-guys with Terrence & Phillip heads?

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:39:37 -0700, "Red Jacket" <RedJacket@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I often go to Canada, you never see any pine
>2x4's, its all *metal studs.
>
>Blackbeard <michael_curtis_young@lycos.com> wrote in message
>news:83f3h15jgn8n2nk804tmjrbjr7bps670jg@4ax.com...
>was
>the
>and
>it
>

Red Jacket

2005-08-30, 7:21 am

I have the whole NYS building code and when I
find the book I'll tell you if there is a change
in distance.
I remodeled this old dump and I can't find a thing.

Well, I seen metal 2x4's on commercial buildings
and I have seen them collapse from not being
able take heavy snow. It was not that heavy,
like in not being a wet snow.
2X8 makes sense to me.
Then one that stands out in my mind is a
downtown building, say a few feet of almost
a powder snow and a wall crumpled.
About 20' of wall went down.

Dear BB, the females in Canada are outstanding !
A hardy bunch they are. I think more females
ride Harleys in Canada than men.
Yep, they are real snow bunnies.

Ever have the pleasure of French table dancing ?
Ohh La La !

I've NEVER heard any Canadian complain about
the weather......Hmmmmm.....

Blackbeard <michael_curtis_young@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:k0u4h19ebu4qkm5kuanl891mi5cmi86ir5@4ax.com...
> Canada is a scary place. I never go to Canada. In the Weekly World
> News they had an article where female sasquatch were working as
> prostitutes in Canada. Only a Canadian would fuck a sasquatch. And
> also if you watch South Park, Canadians have strange heads. So with
> their strange heads and all that sasquatch fuckin' I don't know if I
> trust Canadian construction.
>
> On a more serious not, if they are using metal studs in canada
> (personally I prefer metal-framed construction because the walls),
> they are living in a colder environment than I have in North Carolina.
> In regards to energy, wouldn't it make more sense to frame the outside
> walls with 2x6 metal studs instead of 2x4? In fact, given the
> additional spacing allowances for the wider studs, I would think it
> would actually cost less to frame a house with 2x6 (or even 2x8 studs)
> because they would not have to be framed on 16" centers. I think you
> can frame with up to a 36" center if you use 2x8 studs. I don't have a
> code book handy and I don't know off the top of my head. What is the
> code on distance between studs if you frame with metal (2x4 vs 2x6
> vs 2x8)?
>
> And how many sasquatch prostitutes does it take to service a canuck
> framing crew of 8-guys with Terrence & Phillip heads?
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:39:37 -0700, "Red Jacket" <RedJacket@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
are[color=darkred]
it[color=darkred]
already[color=darkred]
since[color=darkred]
condition[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
for[color=darkred]
>

Red Jacket

2005-08-30, 7:21 am

True, its all about public health.

Ned Flanders <mrstinky@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:X_sQe.704$cY.623@trndny06...
> I would think you are grandfathered but....
>
> This is what I think the public should consider a time to call the local
> code enforcer and make them come out free of charge and consult.
>
>
>
> "Red Jacket" <RedJacket@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:jcGdnQ7xEP__VozeRVn-rw@adelphia.com...
it[color=darkred]
already[color=darkred]
since[color=darkred]
condition[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
>
>

PipeDown

2005-08-31, 5:21 pm

You say the buyer is the one yanking your chain not the city inspector. He
is just trying to find an angle for a discount. If you're smart, you
already overpriced the house to account for cheap asses like that. Unless
it has been hard to sell, let him walk, if he really wants the location, he
will buy iy anyway.

Unless the city gets involved or you cannot sell the house like that, you
can just do nothing.

"CJ" <chrisj@illicom.net> wrote in message
news:3dpPe.959$X25.93689@monger.newsread.com...
>I have a home that was built around 1940 and I am selling it.
> The buyers had an inspector tell them that the drains from the sink are
> not vented and he is correct. I don't believe when the home was built it
> was required, and in my opinion it is not reasonable to expect an already
> existing home to be brought up to code after the fact especially since the
> walls would have to be torn out.
> My plumber already said that the plumbing is in good working condition and
> that it would be unreasonable to install vents after the fact.
>
> Can anyone steer me or cite the Illinois plumbing code that states the
> requirements for venting sink drains and if there is no requirement for it
> to be vented since the house was built before the code was written?
>
> CJ
>

2005-09-01, 2:21 am

"PipeDown" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HeoRe.2929$4P5.825@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> You say the buyer is the one yanking your chain not the city inspector.
> He is just trying to find an angle for a discount. If you're smart, you
> already overpriced the house to account for cheap asses like that. Unless
> it has been hard to sell, let him walk, if he really wants the location,
> he will buy iy anyway.

Well the most respected plumber in town already wrote a recommendation the
there is nothing that needs to be fixed.

They also wanted 2 attic vents on a lower level roof that has a pitch of
about 20 degrees. I told them I would have the vents put in, but at 20
degrees it would probably leak water into the attic being worse for moisture
than not having them.

They want them in anyway....oh well. Thats my guess as to why they werent
there in the first place.

>
> Unless the city gets involved or you cannot sell the house like that, you
> can just do nothing.
>
>
>
> "CJ" <chrisj@illicom.net> wrote in message
> news:3dpPe.959$X25.93689@monger.newsread.com...
>
>

Ned Flanders

2005-09-13, 2:38 pm

sounds like a real shithole of a house you got there old timer.

"CJ" <chrisj@illicom.net> wrote in message
news:08wRe.2067$X25.208585@monger.newsread.com...
> "PipeDown" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:HeoRe.2929$4P5.825@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Well the most respected plumber in town already wrote a recommendation the
> there is nothing that needs to be fixed.
>
> They also wanted 2 attic vents on a lower level roof that has a pitch of
> about 20 degrees. I told them I would have the vents put in, but at 20
> degrees it would probably leak water into the attic being worse for
> moisture than not having them.
>
> They want them in anyway....oh well. Thats my guess as to why they werent
> there in the first place.
>
>
>

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